Riiiiiiiiiight...

Okay, let's look back over this. After years of being the deferential weaker cousin to Superman, the New 52 provides a real gem amongst the crazy - we get a new Supergirl who actually thinks and behaves consistently with her back story. She's strong, independent, forms her own allegiances, immediately calls out Kal on his Earth-loving nonsense, rejects humanity and strikes out in her own believable direction.

Some people don't like the new Kara, others (like me!) love her. To me, this version of her is more like a confused and disorientated Wonder Woman, or a young Power Girl, than the previous version of Kara.

*SPOILERS*

And so now, twenty-three issues, in...she's killed stone dead. Oh - but not just dead. The writers didn't deign to give her a heroic end, where she could have defeated Cyborg Supes and then succumbed to her illness after a bitter-sweet triumph. Nope. Neither did they write a death that she could come logically back from, like dying from the poison even without first overcoming Cyborg Superman's trap, which would have just been sad and not outright shocking.

No. It had to be the most unceremonious, futile, cruel and disturbing death possible. She's completely disintegrated, so now even if a version of her returns whoever that is blatantly won't ever be the person who just died. Her story is over and it's a pretty horrific, bleak and incredibly dark story full of pain and suffering where a confused and lonely Kara is basically clubbed over the head with bad things until she finally dies.

Now alright - we all know that there can be a questionable element of "sexy women in peril" in lots of comics, but seriously? What sort of emotions was this issue supposed to invoke besides anger and disgust? What message does this send out about her schism with Superman and rejection of humanity? How about the undercurrent of sheer sexism and misogyny inherent in the final pages? I'm actually impressed that the team showed enough restraint not have her her clothes stripped off before she dies, given how close this development skirts the edge of disturbing snuff/titillation territory. I guess they compromised - she's killed out of her clothes - which are left behind intact.

Really surprised and saddened by this issue. Unless she was miraculously teleported away (like in World's Finest when Kara was originally reintroduced), I don't see how there's ANY coming back from this point. "Remaking" her won't change anything, the original's still been vaporised.

Nice job DC. Nice job. /sarcasm. Don't even get me started on how the Ame Comi girls thing ended, lol.

Is Supergirl being cancelled?

I'm not sure. I doubt it - this feels more like taking her out of the picture to make way for this whole confusing Pandora fallout where we'll see lots of villains for a bit while the heroes are all afk, but holy moses I think they've gone slightly more than a bit too far with this particular title.

How many kids/teenagers will pick up the collected story of issue 1-23 and be like... @.@ ...when they get to the end??

I really do think there's a sub-editor somewhere in a DC basement scrawling notes on first draft female-led books that say things like "no! Must have MORE fetishistic undertones! More peril and nastiness to the female heroes! Make them suffer sexily!" in crayon, with a grin on his face to rival the Joker's.

@celineness: If the title isn't being cancelled then she'll probably survived somehow or will come back.

Not reading the title myself though, so I could be wrong. >.>

"Get outs":

- Reconstituted from new stuff? Doesn't work, she'd be a copy and the original's story still stands.

- Reconstituted from the same stuff? Still doesn't work, same reasons.

- Teleported away? Very unlikely, given past history. The minion guy could have grown a conscience, Brainiac could have grabbed her at the last moment... The image doesn't really look like this is happening, but it's a long shot.

- Time travel to change the course of events? Creates an alternate reality, doesn't save this Kara.

- All a dream? Well, that would work, as an emergency retcon. I think this is one of the few times when I'd actually be pleased with this rather than have the disintegration stand.

@celineness: You might be over thinking this a tad.

This is a comics forum, right? :P

Got me there.

Maybe they'll just say that she up and just did die. Just because.

She's strong, independent, forms her own allegiances,

I find her to be an immature brat and has shown a lack of intelligence at times to be honest especially how she flies off the handle so easily.

immediately calls out Kal on his Earth-loving nonsense, rejects humanity and strikes out in her own believable direction.

I fail to see any nonsense in Clarks loving of Earth since he grew up here and hasn't really experienced anything else. In fact I find it nonsense when he goes the opposite towards Krypton things.

Some people don't like the new Kara

I don't hate her.

To me, th is more like a confused and disorientated.

I agree Supergirl does come off as that and agree she should.

And so now, twenty-three issues, in...she's killed stone dead. Oh - but not just dead.

Dude really. Please tell me you don't honestly think she is dead. She'll be back either next issue or the one after. He book hasn't been canceled. She doesn't need a heroic death because this isn't going to be her death moment like most heroes get.

Her story is over.

It really isn't.

How about the undercurrent of sheer sexism and misogyny inherent in the final pages?

lol

Really surprised and saddened by this issue. Unless she was miraculously teleported away (like in World's Finest when Kara was originally reintroduced), I don't see how there's ANY coming back from this point. "Remaking" her won't change anything, the original's still been vaporised.

I... I can't even. smh

Okay, so if I cremated you while you were awake, protesting and screaming then created a perfect copy from the ashes, no one would throw me in jail, right? No harm done. Really?

I guess they could actually go down the whole disembodied spirit/soul route as a saving throw but it's more the abruptness and meanness of the death that I'm annoyed about than what happens next.

You do know this is just a comic right? Also you're offended by villains doing evil things? Maybe you should stick to the younger books. I also read them and they are good.

They are not treating it as a death because it's not being played as as her ending but as her middle.

Your points sort of run contrary to each other. Yes, it's a comic. That's why I'm complaining about how it was written and also thinking up ways a semi-realistic comic universe can undo the damage caused in the issue. Second - I'm not offended by the villains, precisely because this is a comic. I'm offended by real world writers try to have it both ways and create "dark, edgy and gritty" events that are better placed in something more serious than a story about super heroes, then wriggle out of the consequences by playing things in the opposite direction and emphasising the unrealistic nature of comics. So you get (say) someone tortured to death graphically then they're brought back to life by "magic" which blatantly doesn't change that the earlier version of them actually did die.

I thought editors of headline Marvel/DC comics are supposed to nix things like arbitrary physical death caused by a writer being in a bad mood. Stuff like the Black Cat being raped got prevented, how is disintegrating Supergirl different?

If she's back next issue and the mechanism actually makes sense and reverses issue 23 then that's great. But I suspect the return will be of a form that doesn't do anything to help the Kara that just died, which is the real kicker.

@celineness: Your points sort of run contrary to each other.

In no way do my points run contrary to each other. My first comment wasn't about the comic itself but more your reaction.

That's why I'm complaining about how it was written and also thinking up ways a semi-realistic comic universe can undo the damage caused in the issue.

There is nothing wrong with the way it's written nor is there any real damage that has been done. You're reading too much into it and failing to see a fairly common process in comics. This isn't her death scene and more of a oh no how is she going to get out of this now scene.

I'm offended by real world writers try to have it both ways and create "dark, edgy and gritty" events that are better placed in something more serious than a story about super heroes, then wriggle out of the consequences by playing things in the opposite direction and emphasising the unrealistic nature of comics

The very nature of comics is bent to the unrealistic and rarely ever have true consequences. To ignore that is to ignore basically every mainstream comic out by the big two. You should be railing about every single comic that comes out. Also you still ignore the fact it's not really edgy because she isn't really end and further more it's not really edgy when we know there wont be consequences like her dying or the fact that death doesnt stick even when characters do die. I felt no dark or edge from this book. Like I said before maybe you should either stick the the younger books if you have such a problem.

So you get (say) someone tortured to death graphically then they're brought back to life by "magic" which blatantly doesn't change that the earlier version of them actually did die.

I say it is whatever the writer wants it to be and if your honest you know he's not going to kill off the real Supergirl to replace her with a clone. That would be like saying every time someone from Star Trek gets transported they die.

thought editors of headline Marvel/DC comics are supposed to nix things like arbitrary physical death caused by a writer being in a bad mood. Stuff like the Black Cat being raped got prevented, how is disintegrating Supergirl different?

I don't know where you ever got that Idea. Besides you do know they have editors right? So you can't just say it's a writer on a bad day. If you honestly think that getting raped that can't be reversed and comparing it to Supergirl who's not really dead then get some help.

If she's back next issue and the mechanism actually makes sense and reverses issue 23 then that's great. But I suspect the return will be of a form that doesn't do anything to help the Kara that just died, which is the real kicker.

Which makes your reaction all the more funny. You jump the gun without actually knowing what their going to do. Again they are not going to kill off Supergirl and replace her with a fake. You may not accept their explanation if you don't like it but then you will be wrong. If they play her as the real deal (and lets be honest they are not going continue with a fake) then she is the real deal whether you like their explanation or not.

Okay, so three main points here:

Star Trek transporters = death is something I genuinely would and do argue. Only as an out-of-context intellectual exercise though (i.e. "if this tech was really possible then philosophically I firmly believe the process does equal death and I wouldn't recommend anyone use them"), NOT as a critique of the show or how it portrays the tech and the fact that every fictional person in that universe doesn't consider transporters to be controversial in that respect. As someone with an MA in Philosophy I'd probably go on for hours on this topic lol - it's a good analogy for the disintegration and I'd equate the two.

Second - I really don't get your point on death being reversible but rape not being. What if a character gets raped and then killed, then brought back? Does the rape somehow still stand, but the death not? Rape can't be reversed/retconned away in the same way death can be? How can being raped be worse than being disintegrated, regardless of what happens later to "fix" the situation? Really not getting that point.

Third - I find this hilarious: "You jump the gun without actually knowing what their going to do. Again they are not going to kill off Supergirl" - you're criticising me for assuming she is dead without knowing for sure what will happen next, but then are stating you know what will happen next? My point is I'm worried that what they do next will be poorly thought out, won't make sense and will still leave the story wide open for interpreting the "version" Supergirl who just got disintegrated will still essentially be dead after the "saving throw" in the next issue or two. Precisely because of over-reliance on random hand-waving and wooly comics logic.

And this just blows my mind: "You may not accept their explanation if you don't like it but then you will be wrong. If they play her as the real deal (and lets be honest they are not going continue with a fake) then she is the real deal whether you like their explanation or not." Really? Don't you think that gives every writer of anything ever a bullet-proof get out of jail free card if you believe this? By that logic, if Zod had walked back on screen during the final Daily Planet scene at the end of Man of Steel and waved at the camera saying "hi! I'm fine now!" then no one would be "allowed" to shout "bulls**t!" and criticise the total lack of logic in the movie? Those people would be "Wrong" and Zod is now fine simply because the writer/director says so? Sorry, but that's just a whole extra level of crazy. I know we're talking about superheroes, but if even in comics there are levels of realism depending on the title and there's no rule that says a reader/fan can't criticise a title if it deploys a handwave that's totally unbelievable, either within the rules of the comics' world or not.

When Niven portrayed the Ringworld as stable - which logically it actually couldn't possibly be - he was called out on the fact and so "patched" the issue in a later book to address the flaw. He didn't get to say "It's stable because I say so!". Heck, there are countless other examples. Chell's "springboots" in Portal resulted from playtesters calling BS on her magical ability to survive ridiculously long falls. The list goes on and on.

In the end all I'm saying is "oh no, they've killed Kara in a way that's nasty, cruel and most of all very difficult to write a believable recovery from. I hope they realise this and fix things in a satisfactory way, otherwise I'll always be thinking of the "next" Kara as a copy." Arguing back by saying what's "satisfactory" is for the writers to decide and anyone who disagrees is wrong just misses the point. That's like saying buyers were "wrong" to walk away from Bioware after feeling betrayed by Mass Effect 3's ending (the ignorant fools!). :P

@celineness:

Okay, so three main points here:

Star Trek transporters = death is something I genuinely would and do argue.

And you would be wrong. If they say it's not death then it's not remember this is science fiction. There may be similarities with reality but in the end it's fiction and if the writers want to say it's not death then it's not. Period end of story.

Second - I really don't get your point on death being reversible but rape not being.

Not hard. You can't take back the rape but you can take back the death. Not that hard. Not to mention we don't even know if she is dead yet.

What if a character gets raped and then killed, then brought back?

That's a ridiculous question honestly.

Does the rape somehow still stand, but the death not?

If you're alive after being dead then yes it was undone and again we don't know if she's dead. You keep ignoring that.

Rape can't be reversed/retconned away in the same way death can be?

Retconed and reversed are two different things. Don't pretend they are the same. If was retconed it never happened in story. You can't unrape someone well unless you use time travel.

How can being raped be worse than being disintegrated, regardless of what happens later to "fix" the situation? Really not getting that point.

Then I really can't help you if you can't see the obvious. Maybe again you should read something without violence if you have such a problem with it instead of moaning about it. I'm pretty sure any Starfleet person would rather be transported then be raped but hell what do I know.

Third - I find this hilarious: "You jump the gun without actually knowing what their going to do. Again they are not going to kill off Supergirl" - you're criticising me for assuming she is dead without knowing for sure what will happen next, but then are stating you know what will happen next? My point is I'm worried that what they do next will be poorly thought out, won't make sense and will still leave the story wide open for interpreting the "version" Supergirl who just got disintegrated will still essentially be dead after the "saving throw" in the next issue or two. Precisely because of over-reliance on random hand-waving and wooly comics logic.

What's really hilarious that you're so gullible that you would ignore any common sense. Next thing you'll tell me death is a permanent thing in comics or someday someone will take over Batman from Bruce permanently. Dude you're really cracking me up here. Supergirl will be fine and it will be the real her. Despite what you've tried to make it out to be several time which wasn't only about bad writing like you're trying to backtrack on.

Really?

Yes really. Don't need to address the other stuff because there is no point being it doesn't mean anything. It's their story to tell it's their reality to make. Accept it or or whine like a baby over it either way it CHANGES NOTHING.

That's simply not true. Backlashes happen. They are acknowledged and if they have a good point and enough force behind them (in terms of financial impact or reputational loss) then they change things.

Wonder Woman had pants. She had them because the writers said so. They later changed their minds because of the reaction.

Using your logic, I can simply say that everything you say is wrong and it's my thread so you have to accept it and if you don't then it changes nothing, right? Creators are apparently immune to all criticism?

The reality of a comic is built on the foundation of the people buying it. If people stop buying, it changes everything.

Anyhow, we'll see what happens in the next month or two and if I pick holes in a bad saving throw then you can come back and tell me I'm wrong even if Brainiac rebuilds her out of Lego (because darn it, if the writers say something is so then that's all there is to it). Because hey, Green Lantern was a great movie really, people just didn't get how awesome it was. One More Day was a fantastic plot device. Xorn wasn't confusing at all, etc etc...

@celineness: Right because fans are going to backlash over Supergirl BEING ALIVE. Try again.

Hey who left this straw man laying around on the floor here? Someone could trip over it! :)

1) They won't backlash over her being alive. They'll backlash over her being brought back in a dumb manner that means the first version of her is actually still dead.

2) You've just switched argument, abandoning the earlier refusal to acknowledge backlashes and retreating to a more defensible point. Does that mean I'm now allowed to disagree with the writers and their choices? Or does my backlash against issue #23 not count as a backlash?

I don't like what happened in issue #23. It was nasty and sets up a difficult problem that I don't trust the writers to competently work themselves out of. I think their workaround won't be sufficient to properly address the problem even within the loose rules of the DC universe, but we'll see...

She'll be back in the October issue

in November will KRYPTON RETURNS which will take place in a superman and Superboy

here sinoptis

SUPERGIRL #25

KRYPTON RETURNS "continues as Supergirl faces the clone wars of Krypton. Just as she was starting to accept Superboy's clone origins, she faces the horrible past of her home planet. And she must once again face H'El.

I do not understand your indignation, have all been known to have solved that problem with kryptonite poisoning

@celineness:

You say stawman say reality and common good sense. You'd be lucky to trip over that.

1: No they won't. At best there might be some minor grumbling from very few people then they'll move on and accept it for the common thing that it is. The majority won't even care that much. That's ignoring the people who do like it. Seriously are you new to comics because you're acting like you are?

2: No I didn't. You're assuming things you want to assume gain. Like you did with the comic. My earlier point still stands. I could have adresse it but instead chose to approach you point from a different angle.

Honestly you're making a big deal over nothing and judging from the different message boards i've been going over even the vocal minority that whine over everything doesn't care because they see this for what it is.

Do yourself a favor. Step back and give yourself a reality check. You've taken this way beyond foolish already.

@dernman: In fact, I completely understand his feelings,DC love kill supergirl just like love to see Powergirl de-powered ,that not news,if you check girls comic historys,Supergirl "killed"has many times,Powergirl get depowered has many times too,looks like DC dont like Female Kryptonians,specifically for now they are kill supergirl again,Celineness 's angry roar is It seems to me reasonable to vent,dont forgot in the superman 06,"superman" beat supergirl like a rape

But she will be back next

issue, so I do not understand his indignation

@celineness: She will be back by next issue. Read the solitics.
Big deal over nothing. Do you really think DC would kill a major player like Supergirl without advertise the sh!t out of it.

@squalleon: They are did it in the infinite crisis on the earth

Yes but COIE was a COMPANY WIDE EVENT and this is just a random issue that DC didn't even advertise.

Plus Supergirl is back for Krypton returns.

Yep,but another face,DC love powergirl get depowered and "KILL" supergirl,check girls history,that not a news

@powerwoman: KAra isn't going to die the creator of this thread is silly person. If he/she read the solicits from October and Novermber would know Supergirl series still there and is alraedy confirmed she will be fine of the kryptonite poison,also Powergirl will return to Earth-2.

@matchesmalone21: Oh,really?!Powergirl would be back home!???

where you get this bro?

@powerwoman: This are teased since Mister Terrific ongoing and throught the whole World's Finest ongoing,Kara and Helena are figure out a way to go back home,also a Earth-2/Earth Prime crossover is teased be happen after Forever Evil aftermath.

Supergirl isn't killed by Cyborg Superman. He used a rearranger machine to use their molecules to regain his human form and his memory (and he is her father), she was deconstructed and when rebuilt will be free of the effects of kryptonite.

@matchesmalone21: Yeah,that really HELL, Cyborg Superman is supergirl FATHER!!!!HOLY SHIT!!!!

And then..if that was true,it's would be amazing!i'm sick to see powergirl get weaker and weaker again,they are did it in pre-52 many times,it's need stop

BTW,Earth-2/Earth Prime crossover?

@powerwoman: I don't see Powergirl getting weaker in New 52,she just doesn't have high end feats (the only one that I remember is from issue 12 or 13).

In Forever Evil we already have a crossover with Earth-3,in JLD 23 you can see that what happened on Earth Prime affect Doctor Fate,is only a matter of time. The writers teased during the comic-cons.

@powerwoman: It's not because she's not dead nor is it something they haven't done to males.

@matchesmalone21: Ok,thanks

here a quick help,

@powerwoman: This explain everything...she spent much time on this dimension,so thay'rent downgraded her powers is just an explanation of why it can not be much longer on Prime Earth.

@matchesmalone21: True,but that not a news,in the Pre-52,when Powergirl meet supergirl has same problem,though it's different

Hope Powergirl back home!

@powerwoman: She will.

@powerwoman: power girl would be "Suicide Squad's member in November

@sadddddd: Suicide Squad on Earth-2? or?

@powerwoman: new 52

A FOREVER EVIL tie-in! A villain from the early days of The New 52 has taken over Belle Reve, and he’s formed the Reverse Suicide Squad! But who—or what—is the Reverse Suicide Squad? Harley Quinn is about to learn the hard way that Power Girl is one of its members…

@sadddddd: i know it's new52,i mean,which universe?earth 2?

"Will be rebuilt". Yep - that's precisely what I'm afraid of. Rebuilding her from atoms/molecules doesn't make the Kara of issue 23 any less dead and gone. It just creates a new copy of her. Combining that with the horrific, hopeless manner in which she died; is what upsets me. I believe that there's a huge ethical problem with the idea of making stuff like Star Trek transporters a reality (putting aside all the things almost certainly prohibiting that ever happening), and I'm by far not the only one who thinks this way.

I do however, appear to be the only person in this* conversation who thinks this way. But that's fine. It just doesn't make me any less mad at the writers for doing what they did to the now dead Supergirl who was around for the first 23 issues of the latest series.

But once again, we'll see how "she is brought back" and who knows, maybe the writers will be smart enough to get themselves out of this extremely tight narrative corner.

* as opposed to this conversation, which is more balanced on each side: http://skepticalphilosopher.blogspot.co.uk/2009/07/consciousness-sci-fi-transportation.html

The writers will write she's alive and isn't a clone,you know this is comic book which people have to enjoy it and not complain every month about something. comic book science is differently from real science and still people makes stupid comparisions.

She is known for working with Legion of Superheroes in Pre 52. Maybe in the New 52 this is how it happens. She gets sent to the future or pulled to the future by the LoS as a way to save her.

sounds more like they are creating the same Kara we have had the whole time just without the Kryptonite poisoning

Well, the preview for Supergirl #24 just appeared online...

...and it looks like they've added just enough hand-waving to not doom Kara completely. DC going full-on Dualism here, with Kara having a supernatural consciousness that's survived her body's destruction. Fair enough, it was the one good way out of the problem I mentioned above.

She's not being conjured back to life just yet, but the narrative's doing a very abrupt U-turn from the disintegration and it seems issue #23 is going to just be an unfortunate blip, with the events of 22 and late 24 just being disrupted by a temporary loss of writer and editor sanity.

Also, it looks like someone's taken Nu-Lobo to pieces, from the look of the Supergirl #27 cover. Can't say that's a bad thing, I'm just thankful it's not Kara in those blocks (which given the history, is pretty surprising).

So, will old-school Lobo fans thank Kara for dismembering in the new guy, or hate her for putting him back together??