@jhazzroucher said:

You can't say a CHARACTER is A-list but then not allow me to take his team away. Then at that point it's not about the individual it's about the team, which then proves my point.

Having alot of appearances in all forms of media is only a factor if the those appearances are specifically about that character. Otherwise you can't say how much that character is actually contributing. Being on a bankable team doesn't mean members can't become A-list because otherwise nobody would be A-list because most bankable heroes are on popular teams, however if the the character doesn't matter WITHOUT the team...then they aren't A-list.

Yes they do because they are a part of it.

1. Nope. You just can't say if there's no x-men, there's no Cyclops or Storm. Besides, Storm had her own minis and even if they were just minis, Marvel still made money from her. and marvel also make money from teambooks. But then again, not all memebrs can become

2. It is a factor and is a bigger factor than just selling in comics. The x-men won't be x-men without each of them as well. The difference is, Storm and Cyclops are more recognizable and more popular

@jhazzroucher said:

Being part of it is irrelevant. Being the sole reason it's popular is what matters.

@jhazzroucher said:

1.Yes, i can say that because it's a fact. Storm's minis are irrelevant especially when you're comparing her to characters with over 200-500 issues of their OWN material. Can you compare what Marvel made from Storm's minis to what they made off of over 100 issues of Deadpool? No, obviously not. So why mention it? They are making money off of X-men but again how much Storm contributes to that is here say. Every member plays a part in the success of the book not just Storm or Cyclops or Wolverine.

2.Storm ONLY sells in comics and merchandise so there is no bigger factors to talk about. The X-men not being anything without Storm and Cyclops is irrelevant because THEY ARE A TEAM! That's how a team works, but you're talking about and INDIVIDUAL (Storm) being A-list. Do you not see how those two things are different? You're getting stuck on "how many people know who Storm is", and it's irrelevant.

Last call for my thesis survey about the Weather Goddess and X-Man Storm! if you consider yourself a fan of her feel free to fill out the survey!My last day for collecting data is Monday! Must be familiar with Storm and at least 18 years of age.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/88WJY3P

@vance_astro: Kardashian is farmous I wouldn't say she has a social status. Also you compare status from the public versious that of a company. You said that these characters where important because the company supports them and the have a status within the company. Kardashians status is from the public. There for you have to look at how popular and well known there are in the public not within the company.

Who said I would compare Daredevil and other characters to somebody has nothing to their name? I think my list of what is an A-list is more strict than yours.

There is a lot of cartoons characters that more well known than anime characters. You are clearly seeing this though an american view. A-list characters would be something you could show every in the world and they can say who it is.

Again anime is a subgenre and even though it has it fans around the world the characters them selfs aren't that well known

@tupiaz said:

I don't know what this paragraph is even supposed to mean. Kim Kardashian's social status has to do with the amount of wealth she's amassed as well as her popularity. She has corporate sponsors which is why she's been able to become as wealthy as she has so COMPANIES are backing her.

@tupiaz said:

You would basically have to unless your B-list is as short as your A-list. If Thor,Deadpool,Daredevil,& Punisher aren't A-list to you..this has to be your ENTIRE B-list because you can't put them on the same level as characters who's earning ability is very minimal or incalculable because they only appear in media with other characters.

@tupiaz said:

Which is what I basically said, but it's not that Anime isn't popular. Cartoons & Comics today aren't received the way they used to be. All the most popular cartoon and comic characters where either created before I was born or when I was very young. It's the same with anime. The animes that came out during my childhood and pre-teen years are the ones that get the most recognition and are the most popular here. Newer stuff isn't having the same impact because the people who grew up liking those shows are now the biggest audience\readership for this stuff and the younger generation isn't getting into it.

@tupiaz said:

Well this makes sense because i'm American but also because Comics are an American art form. Comics are sold around the world but they have their strongest base here.

So then AGAIN, we can't be using the same scale. Because if A-list means the "most bankable" then who does and does not know who these people are isn't the complete basis for who makes the list.

I thought you didn't wanted people to be cheeky?

Then we look at social status differently. Social status is in my opinion a one that is looks up to and admires. And even though some people want to be her I don't think that many admire her for what she has done it has sort of just been given to her.

@vance_astro said:

There is a lot DC characters. Don't forget FF used to be a A-list but isn't anymore.

Well then those characters aren't A-list anymore.

The first comic book is from scotland. There is a lot of comics around the world manga is HUGE in Japan. There is a big french-beligum style that is very popular in Europe. It seems like when you hear the term comics you think of american comics and not comics as whole.

It seems like you just have a very narrow view on comics and that only american comics characters is to be consider on the list. Astro Boy is for instance a A-list character, the same goes for smurfs, Tin TIn and so on. To put in the biggest american comic style characters. Clearly the most wellknow and popular characters are the most bankable since it has more potential sellers.

@tupiaz said:

I don't know what this means either. (I'm not trying to be funny BTW I really don't know what you're trying to say)

"Social status" has an actual definition though. It's not really up to opinion what it means.

I don't think this is true. I also don't agree that the Fantastic Four (if that's what you meant by FF) isn't A-list anymore. Marvel has made alot of money off of FF.

The United States created the superhero genre. ALL of the most popular comic characters are American AND are also superheroes.

You say I have a narrow view of comics, but based on what? America dominates the comics market. That's not a narrow view, that's a fact.

Well this is obviously false. Bankable means: Guaranteed to make a profit. What more proves selling potential than actually moving units?

I thought you sounded like a smart ass in the first post.

I know? However there is different forms of social status it is a term that can have a lot of different angels. Kardashian's social stauts is totally different from the one Jesus has.

How can you say there is not a lot of DC characters that are B-list? Also I called FF (Fantastic Four) a B-list and used to be A-list.

In a America yeah but in the world? Nah. For instance is Tintin at much more known and popular character )or rather franchise than the Daredevil one).

Manga is selling in MILLIONS each year, something that hasn't happen in the US market for years.

Sales in Europe are hard to do since each country has its own translated version and therefore there is a lot of puzzling getting those numbers.

Come again? How is the most popular and wellknow characters not the most bankable? I know what bankable means. There more famous a character is the highere change of it selling well therefore giving more money therefore bankable. Pretty simple.

@tupiaz said:

Wasn't trying to be but, ok...

Jesus doesn't have a social status he's not part of society.


@tupiaz said:

I thought you were saying that there were alot of DC characters that used to be A-list but aren't anymore. I reread what you said and it doesn't actually have anything to do with the point because we're not talking about DC we're talking about Marvel. I know what you called Fantastic Four and said I disagree. The Fantastic Four is 1 of 3 A-list teams Marvel has. The other 2 are the Avengers and the X-men. If you say the F4 is B-list now then again you're ignoring the scale. The F4 has PROVEN to be just as bankable if not more than the Avengers.

Yes, in the WORLD. The superhero genre as well as superhero related characters dominate the world of comics. Tin Tin is bigger than Daredevil but he's also not recognized as a comic character. You can hardly say Daredevil & Tin Tin are competing in the same arena. It's like comparing Iron Man to Charlie Brown.

I don't count Manga as comics.

Because there are characters you would say aren't among the MOST well known that are making money.

@jhazzroucher:

it doesnt matter abt how many games you be in tht doesnt make you an A lister at all !!!! idk who tld u tht lie...storm is a B lister and always will be ecspecially since she isnt a queen anymore

This.

Bad example lets say Nilson Mandela he has political power and for me personally there isn't much prestige over ttpes like Paris Hilton or Kardashian's and I think that is the case for many people.

I'm talking about a-luist comic book characters I have been since the beginning.

FF movies has have way less success with the movies that both the X-Men and the Avengers. Avengers and X-Men has a lot of books FF has what? One? FF used to be an a list when they had the Jack Kirby/Stan Lee run and under the John Byrne but since then their success has been pretty low.

Tintin is regonzied as comic book character always has been. Hergé is know as the creator even infamous for how he describe indians and africans in his comics. That TIntin has branded out and had a cartoon and a Movie is now different from other american style comic book characters.

Manga is a comic whatever you like it or not. It is not just a European style nor a American style but a Japanees style. So I could also just say that animee isn't a cartoon style? Doesn't make sense.

Daredevil's movie didn't make that many money and was a flop. Thor was an ok succes but as I recall not anything near Avengers, Spider-man, X-Men or the Iron Man movies. The comics is selling ok but still below the others. Again you have to prove that the of some of the most bankable COMIC charactes not Marvel characters nor American Style comics. Talking about A-lisat characters within a company is like saying you have to name actors that only appears in movies Sony (or another movie company) makes. Talking about only American Style comics is like saying you can only name American (or another country). You can of cause talk about popularity within those limiteds but when you talk about a if a comic book character is a list you have included all comic book characters.

1. You're talking about just comics scope again. But still, you cannot disregard her number of appearances in comics. True, every member plays a part in their success and that's still a "success". Do you see how things are the same? Or would you like to say Ms Marvel, She-Hulk, Witchblade, Spawn , wtc are A-list or ranks higher than Storm?

2. Oh so you're telling me that characters who doesn't have their own ongoing are irrelevant? I disagree. You saying Storm and Cyclops are irrelevant is definitely false.

@tupiaz said:

Both of those examples were bad because i'm not sure what they even have to do with the point. Paris Hilton & Kim Kardashian are A-list CELEBRITIES! Mandela is a political figure. I'm not sure you're getting the concept of "social status" and i'm not trying to be a d_ck but on this part of the conversation I haven't gotten anything back that makes any sense. I don't know what point you're trying to make.

I know what you're talking about, I'm not understanding why though if your debate is with me. I narrowed it down to JUST Marvel Comics the second you started listing DC characters. There are too many characters between companies to compare.

The Fantastic Four is Marvel's longest running superhero team, and no they don't currently only have 1 book they have 2. Future Foundation & Fantastic Four. The team has only been 4 members for ages so you can't really spread them out the way Marvel does the X-men and Avengers because those teams encompass the entire superhero & mutant community, so it's no a popularity or A-list thing. But the reason I said that Fantastic Four has made Marvel probably just as much if not more than Avengers because between comics & all other forms of popular media, Fantastic Four has done more. The Avengers JUST started mattering outside of comics.

I think he's recognized as a "comic character" about as much as Charlie Brown (at least in the states anyway) which is why I made that comparison. Yes, he started out in comics but I NEVER knew Tintin was even a comic character. I remember him from the "Adventures of Tintin" cartoon from HBO. The largest comic readership demographic is people my age. As far as I've read Tintin was created in the 1920's his comics are still being produced to say and i've NEVER seen them.

@tupiaz

said:

I'm not arguing whether it's a comic or not. I'm just explaining why I said what I said.

Daredevil's movie wasn't a flop. A flop suggests is made less than what was spent making it or broke even. Daredevil made 100 million more than was spent on it. Thor is the same thing it make almost 300 million more than what was spent on it. It didn't make as much as Avengers and Spider-Man or even X-men but that doesn't mean alot of money wasn't made, same with the comics. Daredevil isn't doing as well now as he was in the late 90's-early 2000's where he selling in the top 10 overall BUT he does currently have one of the longest running ongoing books, he's been making Marvel money since before I was born.

Narrowing this down to Marvel Comics is no different than narrowing "characters" down to comics in general. If you say "A-list celebrity" you don't just mean actors, that encompasses ALL celebrities..BUT you are able to narrow it down to just actors or even types of actors or you can do that with sports stars and narrow it down to just basketball players. There's no difference.

@jhazzroucher said:

1. I answered what you said specifically. We don't have to just talk about comics but you tried to mention Storm's minis as if they matter when we're comparing her to characters that have ongoings that are over 200-500 issues long. It doesn't matter what form of media we're talking about, Storm has almost nothing of her own an any of them. You can't use the X-men's numbers and success as Storm's because she's not the sole reason those things are successful which is obvious by how much Summers\Grey Family,Charles Xavier\Magneto & Wolverine stories are covered in X-men comics as opposed to stories that revolve around Storm. Ms.Marvel,She-Hulk,& Spawn don't rank over Storm (although I would say Spawn WAS A-list before) but Witchblade does. Like Buffy whom you tried to say isn't A-list she has one of the longest running female character comics in the industry, and she also had a television show and an anime series.

2.No, you completely misunderstood. What I just told you was the same thing I told you before. Storm & Cyclops aren't sold as singular entities INSIDE or OUT of comics. What I did say was IRRELEVANT was your "how many people know Storm's name" argument you always try and push. It doesn't matter.


@jhazzroucher said:

Storm and Cyclops could not be A-list because they pretty much don't have their own ANYTHING it doesn't matter what form of media we're talking about. The reason every character that has or has had their own ongoing isn't A-list because not all of those ongoings sold. Characters whose books have been repeatedly cancelled because they aren't making enough money and characters who are simply contributing to a bigger picture are on the same level to me because they are both a small part of why people are reading Marvel Comics.

1. and you're thinking that Storm mini's are nothing when they're still something. It matters and again you're just talking about comics. Yes there is something that she owns that's why she is part of the team.

2. That is what you said

3. It matters. Storm and Cyclops are A-List3. but you put them to B-list which is completely wrong if we go by your opinion.

@jhazzroucher said:

1.What are you talking about at this point? Storm's minis are like 5 issues a piece. I may be being generous too, I think her first mini was like 2-3 issues. You can't compare that to an ongoing comic. You keep saying "your just talking about comics" when AGAIN, I answered what YOU said specifically. And she's NOT part of the team because she owns anything. Storm is an X-men character, she was created FOR X-men.

2. I honestly don't think you're even reading what i'm saying.

3. It doesn't matter and you're distorting what I said so that you can continue to reach. If you want to say they can't be B-list because they don't have anything to their name..that's fine but they definitely AREN'T A-list which was the point. Anyway you try and distort my logic they STILL aren't A-list "by my opinion".

Anyway, you might want to check other people's opinions too why they say Storm is or Storm isn't. : http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?431461-Is-Ororo-Munroe-aka-Storm-an-A-List-Character20

link: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?431461-Is-Ororo-Munroe-aka-Storm-an-A-List-Character20

@jhazzroucher said:

I went to this link and although the poll suggests she's A-list the responses in the thread are alot more mixed than that and some of the people who are saying she is are saying stuff like "she's easily the best mutant" and (like you) giving Storm total credit for what X-men have done.

Those who don't really think she's A-list was mostly based in comics and some also consider crediting for her high number of appearances in comics. If you think about it, she's the most used female character in video games, and if you have watched the UMVC3 2013 tournament, Justin Wong used her for the final game. She's also on different cartoons and movies, merchandises, etc

1. Well she was given a lot of mini series. She is part of the team that became successful and she was there.

2. I'll consider that.

3. Then where would you put them if they're not A-list?

She doesn't have her OWN game though. Why do you insist on trying to downplay comics when Storm is a comic character and it's the only media format where she has her OWN title. It's not an ongoing but as you've insisted on bringing up she's had miniseries. It doesn't matter if she's IN those things she's supporting cast in all of them. the success of none of those things was dependent on Storm.

1.Which means what?

2. -_-

3. I already said their both B-list and I explained it but you insisted on trying to tear down my logic. Even if you were right they still aren't A-list so I really didn't see the point of what you were trying to say.

That there are difference between what kind of social status you have Kardashian and Paris Hilton is just celebrities with any political and moral value nor power and therefore have a different kind of social status than Mandela. Paris Hilton Kardashian vil be forgotten in the future and the history will not look kindly on her. I do know what social status is and Paris Hilton and Karadashian have just gotten there fame and status and are celebrities because they are celebreties know for being know nothing more.

Well in my first post I clearly used both DC and Marvel characters and said why Thor wasn't an A-list because he is just about to breaking it in but have been in the top in a long term. So you where they one arguing against me. Know FF have a problem being a small team so they can't have more stories at least to certain degree because how many titles does Spider-Man has each more 3 Ultimate Spider-Man and two releases of superior soon a upcoming team up book. a few Spider-Man universe titles (venom and scarlet spider). Batman has five ongoings and many batman family titles and don't forget that Superman has many as well. The FF and their universe is as popular as it used to bee the two movies wasn't that big of a success. Silver Surfer used to have his ongoing but hasn't any more. Yes FF is historical important and used to be a-list but at the moment know they aren't. Is FF and icon and historical important? Yes! But are they a-list bankable? Nope not really.

Since Herge is dead there aren't being made new comics. However I think this is an american thing. In Europe he is known as a comicbook character and can be bought in many book stores (american comics besides a few translated hardcovers can't or at least this is the case in Denmark and Sweden). There is made tons statues and figures, posters (and even art poster where Tintins asexuality is made sexual) and this is why I would say he is a-list comic book character. Clearly we look at this very different because you are from the states and I'm from Europe. Did we have someone from Japan we would get another view of this.

So you agree that most comics are sold in Japan and not the states. So I hope this mean that the american view of what is a a-list character isn't the only and right way to determine what is an a-list character and what isn't.

A movie that only makes 100 millions is usually consider a flop because it wasn't worth the time because it didn't make enough money. It got a 27 spot of the 2003 box-office in comparison X2 got a spot as number 6 having over double the box-office than Daredevil had.

And yes daredevil is an important character and has being selling well but isn't anymore therefore not an a-list character at the moment. Don't forget he was nearly at cancelation before Miller rewrap the character in the 80's. There never been the household name as for instance Spider-man. I have never seen lunch boxes or school back with Daredevil on it. However Superman, Batman, Spider-man and the X-Men I have seen. very few action figures is made with Daredevil where there are tons of Spider-man, Superman and Batman even more Turtles figures.

I didn't say there was. I simply said that when you are talking about a-list comic book characters (and not Marvel a-list character) you have to include all characters and not only american style nor Marvel and if you are saying this is an a-list comic book character then you have started you include every character since you have made any limits so to begin with I was clearly not referring to neither American style nor Marvel.

@tupiaz said:

I guess the reason why I had a hard time getting your point is I don't get how this refutes or even relates to the point and why I mentioned Kim Kardashian. I was making a comparison of her status in comparison to her earnings. She's still A-list despite the fact that she's worth far less then many other A-list celebrities, like Will Smith & Leonardo DiCaprio for instance. On that same note she has amassed a substantial amount of wealth (remember bankability?) which is why she's of the same social status they are. She's a proven money maker & attention draw.

@tupiaz said:

Thor is A-list regardless, it doesn't matter how many characters we're talking about..I just think it makes more sense to narrow it down to Marvel because we're talking about Marvel characters. The Fantastic Four is still A-list. They've proven their earning ability. Are they making as much as the Avengers or the X-men right now? No, but that doesn't negate their status. Which was the point I was trying to prove using Kim Kardashian. On a long list of celebrities that are A-list she earns in the bottom percentage of them..but she's still on the list. For what the Fantastic Four meant to Marvel I could easily say the company would have struggled alot more without them. You're point about how many books FF has out right now is completely invalid. Daredevil has 3 on the shelves right now and Deadpool at one point had 3 as well and you're saying they aren't A-list.

If there aren't new comics being made then old ones are being re-released because Comicvine's database under Tintin shows issues released this year. I don't know what Tintin is known as in other countries i'm born in raised in United States but I know that regardless of how you were exposed to Spider-Man or Daredevil or Wolverine or any other American Comics character you know their origin is IN COMICS.

Obviously not because I just said I don't count Manga as comics. That last post was just to tell you I don't because apparently you were including them and I wasn't.

Well that's funny because The Blade films are considered SUCCESSFUL although every one of them only made 100 mil. Where are you getting this information? Please look up what "box-office flop" means because it doesn't mean you only made "100 million",whether it flopped or not is based on what was spent making the film.

Disagreed. Daredevil is still A-list, because he's still here moving units, he has one of the longest running series in comic history. He withstood the test of time.Nearly at cancellation and actually getting cancelled is two different things. Daredevil's cancellations have ALWAYS been story based, not based on the lack of profit he's bringing in. Volume 1 was cancelled because of the Flying Blind arc and Volume 2 was cancelled because of Shadowland. There are Daredevil lunch boxes and he also has several action figures, he doesn't have as many as characters you named but those characters figures were based on their T.V. shows so they had alot to work with. Daredevil has at least 1 action figure for every costume (Yellow,Red,Shadowland,Armored) and he has several for his red costume.

Yes, you just did. You're saying that when I'm talking about A-list I HAVE TO included all characters and not only American style or Marvel, but IN FACT I can narrow it down to just those labels because I can do the same thing with any A-list category whether it be actors,sports stars, or even by race or gender. The characters i'm talking about are A-list REGARDLESS but i'm breaking it down to Marvel to limit pointless comparisons. Also to say that you weren't talking about American Style nor Marvel to begin with is false because YOU said in your own posts that there "are only about a dozen or so A-list characters" and ONLY named American style superheroes some of which were Marvel characters.

I would say that Kardashian has a lower social status than both Leonardo and Will Smith since they have earned their money and fame by acting and doing something. Kardashian has just gotten it by being Kardashian and that was my point to begin with. She doesn't have the same respect about as there is about Will Smith and Leonardo. I also believe Leonardo and Will Smith has more power within the movie industry.

No if you have more books then you are more bankable so more books is of cause equals to who far you are on a given list. So when FF make less money and therefore is less bankable then yes it does effect there status. Oh and Daredevil does has 3 books he has one. End of days was a miniseries that have just ended and now he has a new miniseries but he only has one regular book. He is differently in the top of the B list along with Thor and FF: How important FF is for the universe, for the comic and even though the have an iconic status doesn't mean they are that bankable. In 2007 Spider-man had a boxoffice for 330 millions FF - Rise of the Silver Surfer 130 huge different.

Yeah because I'm interested in American comics and I read them. Everybody I know knows that Tintin is from comic book. In Europe I would say that it is more acceptable that you read European comics rather than American. I think some of it has to do to its format a European comic book looks more like a book and aren't released monthly but when the author/penciler is done and therefore signals a more artistic form rather than a product released each money. Which signals more a product that is there to earn money rather than having an artistic view. Also in general USA/Americans has proven not to being good at importing whatever it is cars or art like music, movies, books and comics. Sure there is some here and there but in general you prefer it to be American where in Europe we don't mind watchng movies, listen to music or reading (comic) books from other countries.

Not my fault you contradict yourself. Manga is comics but you you don't regard it as a comic. You just bend and put in your own spin on what a comic should be so that America can be number one comic book country when clearly they are selling are lot more in Japan and is a lot more mainstream.

Yes because the budget is smaller and Blade is a less know character. The blade movie gave 2.9 dollar for dollar spent Daredevil 2.3. Therefor Blade was a bigger success. Daredevil was suppose to bring in more Money but didn't. This shows why Daredevil is not A list but a b list since he got beaten by a B list character that doesn't even has his own ongoing nor did he at the time. That the others have had more TV shows just proves they are more bankable since they are characters getting those shows. That Daredevil has only appeared as a guest in the old TAS and Spider-Man since then has been in several shows proves that Spider-man is a lot more bankable.

No I didn't. I said you can make a list called Marvel A-list characters or American style characters but if the list is called A-list comic characters it is all characters not just American style nor Marvel it is every comic book character. That was my point.

It is true I didn't mentioned any European or Japaness comics but that was because I didn't wanted to side track the topic to much. I mentioned the American ones But I don't think I even mentioned 12 so there so be room to put in some European and Manga characters. But the number is probably closer to 20. Anyway I pretty fast said that a list called a-list comic book characters should have all comic book characters.

@tupiaz said:

Well she's not of a lower social status that's why I'm not getting your point. By her own personal achievement she's amassed a fortune and become immensely popular. According to TV Guide she's the 3rd most popular celebrity on earth, their list is over 130 celebrities long and Smith & DiCaprio didn't even make the list. They have more power in the movie industry than she does but she's also not an actress so that's a pointless comparison. We don't even have to use Kim, we can us ANY A-list celebrity because the point i'm trying to make is the difference in their total earnings despite all being on the same list. According to the Ulmer Scale Will Smith & Reese Witherspoon are among the top 10 of bankable actors\actresses and Johnny Depp is worth more than both of them combined. Do you get my point now? Among A-list celebrities the earnings aren't equal or in some cases they are way off but they are all earning enough and popular\recognizable enough to be at the same status level.

The fact of the matter is this. The Fantastic Four is one of the most popular\recognizable superhero groups in comics. Among the hundreds of teams Marvel has and the possible 20-30 or so that have ever had books, they are 1 of ONLY 3 that has withstood the test of time. F4 isn't selling in the top 10 anymore and neither is Daredevil but those are still successful series by current comic standards. They are still making enough that after over 600 issues they are still going. If you compare Spider-Man's films to just about any character you think is A-list that has had films he's going to put up better numbers. Spider-Man 1,2,& 3 independently outsold everything accept Avengers & The Dark Knight.

I honestly don't even know what we're arguing here at this point. I'm sure ultimately whatever point is trying to be made here doesn't refute the A-list status of any character.

I didn't contradict myself. I said what I meant and never went back on it. I said that I don't consider Manga, comics and at no point did I take that back, so I don't have a clue what you're talking about. What I did say was i'm not going to argue with you whether they are comics are not, not because I'm agreeing that they are but because I don't care what anyone else considers a comic, on that same note though the only reason we are talking about this is because you said I have a narrow view of "comics" which regardless if I do or not isn't even relevant to what we're actually arguing.

We aren't arguing whether Blade's films were more successful than Daredevil's we're arguing whether Daredevil was a flop or not which based on what was spent making it, it wasn't. You named Green Lantern as "A-list whose film was also less successful than Blade's and Daredevil's was so you just refuted your own argument. In regards to your Spider-Man point, that doesn't disprove DD's A-list status either because Spider-Man has had more shows than EVERY Marvel superhero. Why we are comparing Daredevil SPECIFICALLY to Spider-Man is beyond me. The only characters YOU believe are A-list as far as American Superheroes are concerned that are comparable to Spider-Man as far as earnings are Batman & Superman and Wolverine is getting there he's far beyond everyone else.

You can say that was your point but that's not what you said but as my last response just said Daredevil is A-list whether you narrow it down or not and so is Thor & so is Deadpool & the Punisher.

My point exactly.

Maybe Khardsian is more popular than Leonardo DeCaprio and every other movie actor but you missed my point big time. People have RESPECT for actors (any or most) craftsmanship and they have an achieved status Khardsians status is more or less Ascribed status (her talent was to be on a reality show) and Paris Hilton had a father that was a good business man a made a hotel business. Therefor Khardsians status is a different kind and many people don't have respect for it because she is famous for being famous. HUGE different.

History has very little to do with being on a list if you can be earn any money then you aren't an a list. Fantastic Four was the 58 selling comic last month 58! that is nowhere near being an a list. And yes there is some double shipping. Iron Man was pretty close at outselling Spider-man. You have just accepted that the Spider-manAvengers and Batman are in a different league than FF.

Simply discussing your narrow view (and that is a viewpoint you find with many americans. That you have a patriotism about what is america and that you are not so likely to accept other cultures. You mostly see your own movies, listen to your own music and read your own (comic) books. There are some import of Japaness culture but it is mostly limited to geek culture (comic, cartoons and games). And therefore you viewpoint on what is an a list character is based on that and those have the viewpoints of European comics. Since it is neglected. Just because something isn't popular in the USA dosen't mean it can be an A list.

The reason we are having this discussing is because you said that america sells most comics. That is not the chase it is Japan. Comics is a lot more mainstream in Japan than it will ever be in the Western World. Saying manga isn't comics is not only a narrow view it is a viewpoint that goes against reality. it is like saying a monkey isn't a mammal.

Jesus are you even reading what i'm writting?

First of al you started comparing Blade with Daredevil. Second I proved that Blade made more money per dollar than Daredevil and therefore daredevil should have earned more money than it did. Higher budget=higher box-office but it didn't when you cut the expensive for the movie away that gave around the same amount of money. Daredevil should have had a much higher box office. Therefore it was a flop.

Thirdly I said Green Lantern was an a list comic book character/franchise. How many Green Lantern themed books are there? 5-6? The movie was a flop no doubt a about that.

Fourthly of all I compare Daredevil to many a list characters like Superman, Batman and so on. Not only Spider-man. Batman, Superman, Hulk and so on has historical been in more tv shows, movies ext than Daredevil.

@vance_astro said:

Yes I did:

When you are talking about a list comic book characters you talk about every comic boom character. When you are talking about a list american style comics you do that and she you are talking about A-list Marvel comic book characters you do that. The point is clearly when you use the phrase A-list comic book character you talk about every comic book characther and not limited list.

Your point has been that manga is not a comic and European comics aren't know as comic book characters. I just named a few a list characters I didn't think it was necessary to namedrop every character. A list characters still includes bot manga and european style comic book characters. which you have been against the entire time.

@tupiaz said:

I think i'm going to end this argument here. Apparently we aren't going to agree and I honestly don't know how to break this down for you anymore than I already have. On many of these points I feel like the counter-points you're making don't negate those i've already made; like for instance the one you're making about Fantastic Four, I don't feel like I should have to explain to you AGAIN why I don't think that point is valid because technically I already have several times now. I don't think anything is going to change, so aside from the fact that this argument is off-topic (because the thread is about Storm's status), I don't believe I can change your mind.

I will address the Manga thing though because you seem to think I have an issue accepting other cultures although I personally read Manga and watch Anime and even stated when I was trying to make a point that Anime is probably more popular in the states than Comics are. Whether I accept Manga as comics or not it was never relevant to the overall point being made in any of my posts and i've said several times now the characters I am saying are A-list, I believe are A-list regardless it doesn't matter how broad you make the subject matter. Whether you want to talk about ALL comic characters or just DC or just Marvel or whatever..I still believe they are A-list, my point doesn't change whether I accept Manga as comics or not.

1. Which means she has contributed something to make the team successful.

3. How about Daredevil, Punisher, Ghost Rider?

I can say anything but ditto. I have given you several hard facts why some characters is a-list and why some are b list (they earn less money).

About the the whole all comics characters we have clearly misunderstood each other I have never said that a status change. I simply said that my a list star would be a bit longer than the one I first gave but I still don't regard Daredevil, FF nor Thor as a a list character regardless the list even though Thor is close his success just has to be a bit longer.

@jhazzroucher said:

1.Yes CONTRIBUTED, which is why she's B-List. She's not contributing to MARVEL'S overall sales she's contributing to her teams and how much she contributed you can't say.

3.I believe that DD & Punisher are A-list but Ghost Rider is not. He's kind of on the same level as Blade, I don't know what Marvel makes when other studios make movies from their characters but I can bet it's not much whether they make a percentage from the what's made of the actual screening of the film or they are just getting paid for the IP and GR's movies didn't do very well so that just leaves comics and his longest running volume was probably about 100 issues. I think Ghost Rider has been cancelled like 8 times. Luckily for all these characters though (DD,Pun,Blade,GR) those character licenses belong to Marvel again so it's possible they will do those characters some justice in the future and this time actually use the film to generate interest for the comics.

Why can't you consider Ghost Rider as A-list? are you putting him on B-List?

@jhazzroucher said:

His book gets cancelled once a year and he does very little cameos so you pretty much never see him. He had 2 films, the first did ok..the second bombed. Marvel doesn't seem all to concerned with the character.

Storm is absolutely an A-List character. Even my mom knows who Storm is (one of two female superheroes she knows - Wonder Woman being the other). I cant wait to see what unfolds for her in the new X-Men (Women) series.

so where are you putting him then? B?

@jhazzroucher said:

Yea. He's popular enough that people know him just by how he looks, he's had a quite a few decent runs as far as comics and he has done a little bit outside of comics. The only reason he's not A-list is because there are periods of time where he's doing virtually nothing.

then you can't put Storm and Cyclops on B-list because they didn't have their own ongoing and movies.

@jhazzroucher said:

That has nothing to do with the criteria but, whatever.

Why not. That was your reason of not considering Storm and Cyclops as A-list.

@jhazzroucher said:

No it wasn't. My reasoning was because they aren't making enough money independently to be A-list. Not having an ongoing or films is only part of it. For all 3 characters (Storm,GR,Cyclops) they aren't making enough to be A-list and they are too popular to be C-list. C-list is for characters like Moon Knight,Ms.Marvel,Luke Cage,Iron Fist etc. They are mostly only known to comic readers, they aren't making Marvel that much because they aren't among the most popular members of any team or they are on teams that themselves aren't very popular (like the Defenders,Thunderbolts, or Heroes for Hire) and they've had ongoings but they've been repeatedly cancelled and there have been long spans of time where they didn't have a book.

Still, Cyclops and Storm didn't have an ongoing comics and you are putting them on the same bar where Ghost Rider is? and that is by your opinion on who should be A-list and who is not. Are you telling me you are changing your basis when it comes to B-list?

Storm is B list at best. It amazes me that anyone thinks she's A list.

A list is determined by pop culture:

• Spiderman
• Batman
• Superman
• Wonder Woman
• Wolverine
• Iron Man
• Captain America
• Hulk
• Robin
• (maybe) Aquaman

And oh! Storm has just been featured in a Barbados newspaper today, page 25: http://www.barbadosadvocate.com/todayspaper/

link: http://www.barbadosadvocate.com/todayspaper/

@jhazzroucher said:

I don't even know what to say to this. I JUST explained this to you.

@maccyd said:

A-list is determined by earning potential & ability. All these characters are A-list but this isn't the ENTIRE A-list. The Flash should be there, Aquaman isn't a "maybe" and there is actually a few more DC & Marvel characters not listed as well and maybe some misc. characters like Buffy, Conan, etc.

Still, the fact that you are basing your A-list for having their own ongoing that Storm and Cyclops shouldn't even be in B-list.

The simplest argument i can give you is, if Storm was a recognizable A-List character, then we wouldn't be talking about this.