Is Ororo Munroe aka Storm an A-List Character?

#1801 Edited by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

I missed some of your points

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

@jhazzroucher said:


2. I don't disagree with this: "...it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister..."

crap, just realized you said you don't disagree .... My bad ... lol!

If you boost sales by 1 subscriber, you've technically boasted sales, do you think that someone who just increases sales by 1 subscriber should be considered an A-lister? There are people who sell 30000 monthly usa comics via solo's who I still don't think would be considered a -listers, x-men sells in the 160000 range, can you honestly guarantee that over 30000 of those are specifically because of Storm? I'ld also like to entertain your thoughts on how many people buy Wolverine and the X-Men for Storm.

06. Savage Wolverine #1 - 102,530
10. Uncanny X-Force #1 - 86,187
13. All New X-Men #6 - 80,195 … 15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007
15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007 … 11. All New X-Men #4 - 80,665
28. Deadpool #4 - 57,061 … 25. Deadpool #3 - 60,215
30. Cable and X-Force #3 - 51,761 … 29. Cable and X-Force #2 - 57,719
37. A Plus X #4 - 48,091 … 32. A Plus X #3 - 56,700
40. Wolverine and the X-Men #24 - 44,716 … 44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963
44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963 ... 45. Wolverine and the X-Men #22 - 45,658
56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673 … 48. X-Men: Legacy #3 -45,407
58. Deadpool: Killustrated #1 - 36,771
62. X-Men: Legacy #5 - 34,823 … 56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673
74. X-MEN#40 - 28,515 … 72. X-MEN #39 - 29,326
81. Astonishing X-Men #58 - 25,159 … 82. Astonishing X-Men #57 - 26,263
84. Wolverine Max #3 - 24,058 … 82. Wolverine Max #2 - 27,217
87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #21 - 23,479 … 87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #20 - 24,789
93. X-Factor #250 - 22,521 … 95. X-Factor #249 - 21,211
94. Gambit #8 - 22,396 … 89. Gambit #7 - 23,978
98. First X-Men #5 - 20,111 … 102. First X-Men #4 - 21,930
107. Age of Apocalypse #11 - 18,555 … 105. Age of Apocalypse #10 - 19,337
129. X-Treme X-Men #9 - 15,529 … 122. X-Treme X-Men #8 - 16,536

http://www.forumforgeeks.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=5167

jhazzroucher said:

3. Still, quantity means something and seeing Storm on top on on most number of appearances among female comic characters is always a good thing

Thats all good, point is that don't make you an A-lister...

1. I don't think so. they even gave Gambit, Mystique, Emma Frost, etc , who were members of a team/

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

2. and i really meant "i agree".

I pointed this out in edited post which you responded to!

3. Indeed, but Storm and Cyclops are an exception.

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

1. and so you're telling me that marvel thinsk the others that i have mentioned would sell better than Storm that's why they didn't give Storm an ongoing|?

Unfortunately, the following response still applies to the answer you gave to it.

I have already said:

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

In case you have not noticed, you judge a-listers based on actual performance. Storm does not have a solo, guessing how well she would sell is completely irrelevant to the topic because she does not sell a solo because she has none.

3. appearances and exposure.

And I'm 100% sure this pointer of yours was addressed, oh wait it was ...

I have already said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

@jhazzroucher said:

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

Do you know how they judge a-list actors? It is not by the amount of movies they show up in, it is by their ability to command leading roles and bring in viewers (bankable value), indeed, there are plenty non-a-listers you see popping up everywhere who don't take leading roles but are still noticeable.

1. no it isn't

2. and you're not taking it into consideration.

3. it's different from comic characters cos number of appearances matters

As I said before :

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

For instance

jhazzroucher said:

1. no it isn't

This would normally be a useful answer if you provided and explanation as to why, preferably one that has not already been shot down, it is most definitely usefully if you actually indicate what you were responding to because as I said before: "In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point". There is some called "context" and this response lacks it in spades.

jhazzroucher said:

and you're not taking it into consideration.

This might be a useful response if you actually said "what I'm not taking into consideration and how it effected my argument", also preferably with points that have not already been shot down (as you may or may not have noticed, I'm very fond of quoting responses I've made to your rehashed arguments).

jhazzroucher said:

. it's different from comic characters cos number of appearances matters

I'm assuming your talking about the a-list actor comparison on which point I'll confess your complete lack of explanation as to why they are different is so convincing...that do you don't have a reason other than you want it to be so. Appearances do matter, especially in solos..wanna guess what Storm does not have?

Hint:

Want to know why I know you don't have a good reason?

Because I addressed your only attempt at making a point several times already

I have already said:

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

1. because i already told you so so no need to explain further.

2 to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

jhazzroucher said

1. because i already told you so so no need to explain further.

Don't confuse making a comment with actually providing an explanation or an argument, you have made many statements but provided little reasoning or explanations; the fact that you can't or are unwilling to go back and clarify your own statement only exemplifies this.

jhazzroucher said

to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

This is another point you have failed to justify, Having a Solo series is important because it shows haw many people want to read your comics for you, that is one of the defining traits of an A-lister, because as I said before. BTW; I am still waiting on a 'proper' explanation on why using a similar ranking for characters as we do for actors is wrong.

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

jhazzroucher said

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

And getting exposure does not dictate if you're an a-lister or not so this is a moot response because it is your ability to drive sales and bring in revenue that dictates this and not your ability to get carried.

I have already stated

Quantity does not equal quality, many appearances could just mean Marvel is trying to push her, rather than her pushing the team, Solo's are great for gauging how popular a comic character actually is, If Marvel actually thought she could sell, they would have a monthly out, but they don't, Wolverine does, Storm does not. Storm lacking a consistent solo, tells me Marvel does not think she will sell well, and I would assume they based this on how popular they gauge the character really is without the rest of the team to carry them. People might like seeing her on a team or the occasional crossover/visit, but it does not mean they like her enough to buy a solo, and that is one of the major components that separates the A's from everyone else.

1. Marvel is just choosing characters they want to give an ongoing, aside from making money.

2. a solo series is indeed important but it's not a requirement for a character to become an a-lister. Hence we have Cyclops and Storm breaking your opinion.

3. getting more exposure means getting more known and recognizable.

4. Quantity doesn't indeed equal equality but Storm and Cyclops has enough quality and if not enough, the quantity (exposure) that they got adds enough to make them an A-lister

1. Marvel is just choosing characters they want to give an ongoing, aside from making money.

90 pages and you have failed to provide this reason.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. a solo series is indeed important but it's not a requirement for a character to become an a-lister. Hence we have Cyclops and Storm breaking your opinion.

sound familiar? it should

jhazzroucher said

to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

drgnx said:

This is another point you have failed to justify, Having a Solo series is important because it shows haw many people want to read your comics for you, that is one of the defining traits of an A-lister, because as I said before.

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

BTW; I am still waiting on a 'proper' explanation on why using a similar ranking for characters as we do for actors is wrong.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

jhazzroucher said

3. getting more exposure means getting more known and recognizable.

sound familiar? it should

jhazzroucher said

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

drgnx said:

And getting exposure does not dictate if you're an a-lister or not so this is a moot response because it is your ability to drive sales and bring in revenue that dictates this and not your ability to get carried.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

jhazzroucher said

4. Quantity doesn't indeed equal equality but Storm and Cyclops has enough quality and if not enough, the quantity (exposure) that they got adds enough to make them an A-lister

I think I have a quoted response for that.....wait for it .... (also in the above repose) ....

I already said:

And getting exposure does not dictate if you're an a-lister or not so this is a moot response because it is your ability to drive sales and bring in revenue that dictates this and not your ability to get carried.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And don't think it escaped me that you never provided a 'proper' explanation on why using a similar ranking for characters as we do for actors is wrong.

#1802 Posted by jhazzroucher (16386 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

I missed some of your points

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

@jhazzroucher said:


2. I don't disagree with this: "...it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister..."

crap, just realized you said you don't disagree .... My bad ... lol!

If you boost sales by 1 subscriber, you've technically boasted sales, do you think that someone who just increases sales by 1 subscriber should be considered an A-lister? There are people who sell 30000 monthly usa comics via solo's who I still don't think would be considered a -listers, x-men sells in the 160000 range, can you honestly guarantee that over 30000 of those are specifically because of Storm? I'ld also like to entertain your thoughts on how many people buy Wolverine and the X-Men for Storm.

06. Savage Wolverine #1 - 102,530
10. Uncanny X-Force #1 - 86,187
13. All New X-Men #6 - 80,195 … 15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007
15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007 … 11. All New X-Men #4 - 80,665
28. Deadpool #4 - 57,061 … 25. Deadpool #3 - 60,215
30. Cable and X-Force #3 - 51,761 … 29. Cable and X-Force #2 - 57,719
37. A Plus X #4 - 48,091 … 32. A Plus X #3 - 56,700
40. Wolverine and the X-Men #24 - 44,716 … 44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963
44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963 ... 45. Wolverine and the X-Men #22 - 45,658
56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673 … 48. X-Men: Legacy #3 -45,407
58. Deadpool: Killustrated #1 - 36,771
62. X-Men: Legacy #5 - 34,823 … 56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673
74. X-MEN#40 - 28,515 … 72. X-MEN #39 - 29,326
81. Astonishing X-Men #58 - 25,159 … 82. Astonishing X-Men #57 - 26,263
84. Wolverine Max #3 - 24,058 … 82. Wolverine Max #2 - 27,217
87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #21 - 23,479 … 87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #20 - 24,789
93. X-Factor #250 - 22,521 … 95. X-Factor #249 - 21,211
94. Gambit #8 - 22,396 … 89. Gambit #7 - 23,978
98. First X-Men #5 - 20,111 … 102. First X-Men #4 - 21,930
107. Age of Apocalypse #11 - 18,555 … 105. Age of Apocalypse #10 - 19,337
129. X-Treme X-Men #9 - 15,529 … 122. X-Treme X-Men #8 - 16,536

http://www.forumforgeeks.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=5167

jhazzroucher said:

3. Still, quantity means something and seeing Storm on top on on most number of appearances among female comic characters is always a good thing

Thats all good, point is that don't make you an A-lister...

1. I don't think so. they even gave Gambit, Mystique, Emma Frost, etc , who were members of a team/

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

2. and i really meant "i agree".

I pointed this out in edited post which you responded to!

3. Indeed, but Storm and Cyclops are an exception.

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

1. and so you're telling me that marvel thinsk the others that i have mentioned would sell better than Storm that's why they didn't give Storm an ongoing|?

Unfortunately, the following response still applies to the answer you gave to it.

I have already said:

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

In case you have not noticed, you judge a-listers based on actual performance. Storm does not have a solo, guessing how well she would sell is completely irrelevant to the topic because she does not sell a solo because she has none.

3. appearances and exposure.

And I'm 100% sure this pointer of yours was addressed, oh wait it was ...

I have already said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

@jhazzroucher said:

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

Do you know how they judge a-list actors? It is not by the amount of movies they show up in, it is by their ability to command leading roles and bring in viewers (bankable value), indeed, there are plenty non-a-listers you see popping up everywhere who don't take leading roles but are still noticeable.

1. no it isn't

2. and you're not taking it into consideration.

3. it's different from comic characters cos number of appearances matters

As I said before :

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

For instance

jhazzroucher said:

1. no it isn't

This would normally be a useful answer if you provided and explanation as to why, preferably one that has not already been shot down, it is most definitely usefully if you actually indicate what you were responding to because as I said before: "In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point". There is some called "context" and this response lacks it in spades.

jhazzroucher said:

and you're not taking it into consideration.

This might be a useful response if you actually said "what I'm not taking into consideration and how it effected my argument", also preferably with points that have not already been shot down (as you may or may not have noticed, I'm very fond of quoting responses I've made to your rehashed arguments).

jhazzroucher said:

. it's different from comic characters cos number of appearances matters

I'm assuming your talking about the a-list actor comparison on which point I'll confess your complete lack of explanation as to why they are different is so convincing...that do you don't have a reason other than you want it to be so. Appearances do matter, especially in solos..wanna guess what Storm does not have?

Hint:

Want to know why I know you don't have a good reason?

Because I addressed your only attempt at making a point several times already

I have already said:

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

1. because i already told you so so no need to explain further.

2 to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

jhazzroucher said

1. because i already told you so so no need to explain further.

Don't confuse making a comment with actually providing an explanation or an argument, you have made many statements but provided little reasoning or explanations; the fact that you can't or are unwilling to go back and clarify your own statement only exemplifies this.

jhazzroucher said

to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

This is another point you have failed to justify, Having a Solo series is important because it shows haw many people want to read your comics for you, that is one of the defining traits of an A-lister, because as I said before. BTW; I am still waiting on a 'proper' explanation on why using a similar ranking for characters as we do for actors is wrong.

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

jhazzroucher said

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

And getting exposure does not dictate if you're an a-lister or not so this is a moot response because it is your ability to drive sales and bring in revenue that dictates this and not your ability to get carried.

I have already stated

Quantity does not equal quality, many appearances could just mean Marvel is trying to push her, rather than her pushing the team, Solo's are great for gauging how popular a comic character actually is, If Marvel actually thought she could sell, they would have a monthly out, but they don't, Wolverine does, Storm does not. Storm lacking a consistent solo, tells me Marvel does not think she will sell well, and I would assume they based this on how popular they gauge the character really is without the rest of the team to carry them. People might like seeing her on a team or the occasional crossover/visit, but it does not mean they like her enough to buy a solo, and that is one of the major components that separates the A's from everyone else.

1. Marvel is just choosing characters they want to give an ongoing, aside from making money.

2. a solo series is indeed important but it's not a requirement for a character to become an a-lister. Hence we have Cyclops and Storm breaking your opinion.

3. getting more exposure means getting more known and recognizable.

4. Quantity doesn't indeed equal equality but Storm and Cyclops has enough quality and if not enough, the quantity (exposure) that they got adds enough to make them an A-lister

1. Marvel is just choosing characters they want to give an ongoing, aside from making money.

90 pages and you have failed to provide this reason.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. a solo series is indeed important but it's not a requirement for a character to become an a-lister. Hence we have Cyclops and Storm breaking your opinion.

sound familiar? it should

jhazzroucher said

to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

drgnx said:

This is another point you have failed to justify, Having a Solo series is important because it shows haw many people want to read your comics for you, that is one of the defining traits of an A-lister, because as I said before.

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

BTW; I am still waiting on a 'proper' explanation on why using a similar ranking for characters as we do for actors is wrong.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

jhazzroucher said

3. getting more exposure means getting more known and recognizable.

sound familiar? it should

jhazzroucher said

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

drgnx said:

And getting exposure does not dictate if you're an a-lister or not so this is a moot response because it is your ability to drive sales and bring in revenue that dictates this and not your ability to get carried.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

jhazzroucher said

4. Quantity doesn't indeed equal equality but Storm and Cyclops has enough quality and if not enough, the quantity (exposure) that they got adds enough to make them an A-lister

I think I have a quoted response for that.....wait for it .... (also in the above repose) ....

I already said:

And getting exposure does not dictate if you're an a-lister or not so this is a moot response because it is your ability to drive sales and bring in revenue that dictates this and not your ability to get carried.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And don't think it escaped me that you never provided a 'proper' explanation on why using a similar ranking for characters as we do for actors is wrong.

1. oh yes you did fail.

2. Orlando Bloom ?

#1803 Posted by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

I missed some of your points

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

@jhazzroucher said:


2. I don't disagree with this: "...it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister..."

crap, just realized you said you don't disagree .... My bad ... lol!

If you boost sales by 1 subscriber, you've technically boasted sales, do you think that someone who just increases sales by 1 subscriber should be considered an A-lister? There are people who sell 30000 monthly usa comics via solo's who I still don't think would be considered a -listers, x-men sells in the 160000 range, can you honestly guarantee that over 30000 of those are specifically because of Storm? I'ld also like to entertain your thoughts on how many people buy Wolverine and the X-Men for Storm.

06. Savage Wolverine #1 - 102,530
10. Uncanny X-Force #1 - 86,187
13. All New X-Men #6 - 80,195 … 15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007
15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007 … 11. All New X-Men #4 - 80,665
28. Deadpool #4 - 57,061 … 25. Deadpool #3 - 60,215
30. Cable and X-Force #3 - 51,761 … 29. Cable and X-Force #2 - 57,719
37. A Plus X #4 - 48,091 … 32. A Plus X #3 - 56,700
40. Wolverine and the X-Men #24 - 44,716 … 44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963
44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963 ... 45. Wolverine and the X-Men #22 - 45,658
56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673 … 48. X-Men: Legacy #3 -45,407
58. Deadpool: Killustrated #1 - 36,771
62. X-Men: Legacy #5 - 34,823 … 56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673
74. X-MEN#40 - 28,515 … 72. X-MEN #39 - 29,326
81. Astonishing X-Men #58 - 25,159 … 82. Astonishing X-Men #57 - 26,263
84. Wolverine Max #3 - 24,058 … 82. Wolverine Max #2 - 27,217
87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #21 - 23,479 … 87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #20 - 24,789
93. X-Factor #250 - 22,521 … 95. X-Factor #249 - 21,211
94. Gambit #8 - 22,396 … 89. Gambit #7 - 23,978
98. First X-Men #5 - 20,111 … 102. First X-Men #4 - 21,930
107. Age of Apocalypse #11 - 18,555 … 105. Age of Apocalypse #10 - 19,337
129. X-Treme X-Men #9 - 15,529 … 122. X-Treme X-Men #8 - 16,536

http://www.forumforgeeks.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=5167

jhazzroucher said:

3. Still, quantity means something and seeing Storm on top on on most number of appearances among female comic characters is always a good thing

Thats all good, point is that don't make you an A-lister...

1. I don't think so. they even gave Gambit, Mystique, Emma Frost, etc , who were members of a team/

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

2. and i really meant "i agree".

I pointed this out in edited post which you responded to!

3. Indeed, but Storm and Cyclops are an exception.

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

1. and so you're telling me that marvel thinsk the others that i have mentioned would sell better than Storm that's why they didn't give Storm an ongoing|?

Unfortunately, the following response still applies to the answer you gave to it.

I have already said:

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

In case you have not noticed, you judge a-listers based on actual performance. Storm does not have a solo, guessing how well she would sell is completely irrelevant to the topic because she does not sell a solo because she has none.

3. appearances and exposure.

And I'm 100% sure this pointer of yours was addressed, oh wait it was ...

I have already said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

@jhazzroucher said:

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

Do you know how they judge a-list actors? It is not by the amount of movies they show up in, it is by their ability to command leading roles and bring in viewers (bankable value), indeed, there are plenty non-a-listers you see popping up everywhere who don't take leading roles but are still noticeable.

1. no it isn't

2. and you're not taking it into consideration.

3. it's different from comic characters cos number of appearances matters

As I said before :

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

For instance

jhazzroucher said:

1. no it isn't

This would normally be a useful answer if you provided and explanation as to why, preferably one that has not already been shot down, it is most definitely usefully if you actually indicate what you were responding to because as I said before: "In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point". There is some called "context" and this response lacks it in spades.

jhazzroucher said:

and you're not taking it into consideration.

This might be a useful response if you actually said "what I'm not taking into consideration and how it effected my argument", also preferably with points that have not already been shot down (as you may or may not have noticed, I'm very fond of quoting responses I've made to your rehashed arguments).

jhazzroucher said:

. it's different from comic characters cos number of appearances matters

I'm assuming your talking about the a-list actor comparison on which point I'll confess your complete lack of explanation as to why they are different is so convincing...that do you don't have a reason other than you want it to be so. Appearances do matter, especially in solos..wanna guess what Storm does not have?

Hint:

Want to know why I know you don't have a good reason?

Because I addressed your only attempt at making a point several times already

I have already said:

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

1. because i already told you so so no need to explain further.

2 to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

jhazzroucher said

1. because i already told you so so no need to explain further.

Don't confuse making a comment with actually providing an explanation or an argument, you have made many statements but provided little reasoning or explanations; the fact that you can't or are unwilling to go back and clarify your own statement only exemplifies this.

jhazzroucher said

to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

This is another point you have failed to justify, Having a Solo series is important because it shows haw many people want to read your comics for you, that is one of the defining traits of an A-lister, because as I said before. BTW; I am still waiting on a 'proper' explanation on why using a similar ranking for characters as we do for actors is wrong.

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

jhazzroucher said

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

And getting exposure does not dictate if you're an a-lister or not so this is a moot response because it is your ability to drive sales and bring in revenue that dictates this and not your ability to get carried.

I have already stated

Quantity does not equal quality, many appearances could just mean Marvel is trying to push her, rather than her pushing the team, Solo's are great for gauging how popular a comic character actually is, If Marvel actually thought she could sell, they would have a monthly out, but they don't, Wolverine does, Storm does not. Storm lacking a consistent solo, tells me Marvel does not think she will sell well, and I would assume they based this on how popular they gauge the character really is without the rest of the team to carry them. People might like seeing her on a team or the occasional crossover/visit, but it does not mean they like her enough to buy a solo, and that is one of the major components that separates the A's from everyone else.

1. Marvel is just choosing characters they want to give an ongoing, aside from making money.

2. a solo series is indeed important but it's not a requirement for a character to become an a-lister. Hence we have Cyclops and Storm breaking your opinion.

3. getting more exposure means getting more known and recognizable.

4. Quantity doesn't indeed equal equality but Storm and Cyclops has enough quality and if not enough, the quantity (exposure) that they got adds enough to make them an A-lister

1. Marvel is just choosing characters they want to give an ongoing, aside from making money.

90 pages and you have failed to provide this reason.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. a solo series is indeed important but it's not a requirement for a character to become an a-lister. Hence we have Cyclops and Storm breaking your opinion.

sound familiar? it should

jhazzroucher said

to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

drgnx said:

This is another point you have failed to justify, Having a Solo series is important because it shows haw many people want to read your comics for you, that is one of the defining traits of an A-lister, because as I said before.

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

BTW; I am still waiting on a 'proper' explanation on why using a similar ranking for characters as we do for actors is wrong.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

jhazzroucher said

3. getting more exposure means getting more known and recognizable.

sound familiar? it should

jhazzroucher said

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

drgnx said:

And getting exposure does not dictate if you're an a-lister or not so this is a moot response because it is your ability to drive sales and bring in revenue that dictates this and not your ability to get carried.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

jhazzroucher said

4. Quantity doesn't indeed equal equality but Storm and Cyclops has enough quality and if not enough, the quantity (exposure) that they got adds enough to make them an A-lister

I think I have a quoted response for that.....wait for it .... (also in the above repose) ....

I already said:

And getting exposure does not dictate if you're an a-lister or not so this is a moot response because it is your ability to drive sales and bring in revenue that dictates this and not your ability to get carried.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And don't think it escaped me that you never provided a 'proper' explanation on why using a similar ranking for characters as we do for actors is wrong.

1. oh yes you did fail.

2. Orlando Bloom ?

1. oh yes you did fail.

I know your the expert on fail and all but excuse me if I don't take your word for it my dear.

2. Orlando Bloom ?

What about him?

#1804 Posted by jhazzroucher (16386 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

I missed some of your points

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

@jhazzroucher said:


2. I don't disagree with this: "...it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister..."

crap, just realized you said you don't disagree .... My bad ... lol!

If you boost sales by 1 subscriber, you've technically boasted sales, do you think that someone who just increases sales by 1 subscriber should be considered an A-lister? There are people who sell 30000 monthly usa comics via solo's who I still don't think would be considered a -listers, x-men sells in the 160000 range, can you honestly guarantee that over 30000 of those are specifically because of Storm? I'ld also like to entertain your thoughts on how many people buy Wolverine and the X-Men for Storm.

06. Savage Wolverine #1 - 102,530
10. Uncanny X-Force #1 - 86,187
13. All New X-Men #6 - 80,195 … 15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007
15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007 … 11. All New X-Men #4 - 80,665
28. Deadpool #4 - 57,061 … 25. Deadpool #3 - 60,215
30. Cable and X-Force #3 - 51,761 … 29. Cable and X-Force #2 - 57,719
37. A Plus X #4 - 48,091 … 32. A Plus X #3 - 56,700
40. Wolverine and the X-Men #24 - 44,716 … 44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963
44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963 ... 45. Wolverine and the X-Men #22 - 45,658
56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673 … 48. X-Men: Legacy #3 -45,407
58. Deadpool: Killustrated #1 - 36,771
62. X-Men: Legacy #5 - 34,823 … 56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673
74. X-MEN#40 - 28,515 … 72. X-MEN #39 - 29,326
81. Astonishing X-Men #58 - 25,159 … 82. Astonishing X-Men #57 - 26,263
84. Wolverine Max #3 - 24,058 … 82. Wolverine Max #2 - 27,217
87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #21 - 23,479 … 87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #20 - 24,789
93. X-Factor #250 - 22,521 … 95. X-Factor #249 - 21,211
94. Gambit #8 - 22,396 … 89. Gambit #7 - 23,978
98. First X-Men #5 - 20,111 … 102. First X-Men #4 - 21,930
107. Age of Apocalypse #11 - 18,555 … 105. Age of Apocalypse #10 - 19,337
129. X-Treme X-Men #9 - 15,529 … 122. X-Treme X-Men #8 - 16,536

http://www.forumforgeeks.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=5167

jhazzroucher said:

3. Still, quantity means something and seeing Storm on top on on most number of appearances among female comic characters is always a good thing

Thats all good, point is that don't make you an A-lister...

1. I don't think so. they even gave Gambit, Mystique, Emma Frost, etc , who were members of a team/

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

2. and i really meant "i agree".

I pointed this out in edited post which you responded to!

3. Indeed, but Storm and Cyclops are an exception.

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

1. and so you're telling me that marvel thinsk the others that i have mentioned would sell better than Storm that's why they didn't give Storm an ongoing|?

Unfortunately, the following response still applies to the answer you gave to it.

I have already said:

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

In case you have not noticed, you judge a-listers based on actual performance. Storm does not have a solo, guessing how well she would sell is completely irrelevant to the topic because she does not sell a solo because she has none.

3. appearances and exposure.

And I'm 100% sure this pointer of yours was addressed, oh wait it was ...

I have already said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

@jhazzroucher said:

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

Do you know how they judge a-list actors? It is not by the amount of movies they show up in, it is by their ability to command leading roles and bring in viewers (bankable value), indeed, there are plenty non-a-listers you see popping up everywhere who don't take leading roles but are still noticeable.

1. no it isn't

2. and you're not taking it into consideration.

3. it's different from comic characters cos number of appearances matters

As I said before :

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

For instance

jhazzroucher said:

1. no it isn't

This would normally be a useful answer if you provided and explanation as to why, preferably one that has not already been shot down, it is most definitely usefully if you actually indicate what you were responding to because as I said before: "In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point". There is some called "context" and this response lacks it in spades.

jhazzroucher said:

and you're not taking it into consideration.

This might be a useful response if you actually said "what I'm not taking into consideration and how it effected my argument", also preferably with points that have not already been shot down (as you may or may not have noticed, I'm very fond of quoting responses I've made to your rehashed arguments).

jhazzroucher said:

. it's different from comic characters cos number of appearances matters

I'm assuming your talking about the a-list actor comparison on which point I'll confess your complete lack of explanation as to why they are different is so convincing...that do you don't have a reason other than you want it to be so. Appearances do matter, especially in solos..wanna guess what Storm does not have?

Hint:

Want to know why I know you don't have a good reason?

Because I addressed your only attempt at making a point several times already

I have already said:

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

1. because i already told you so so no need to explain further.

2 to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

jhazzroucher said

1. because i already told you so so no need to explain further.

Don't confuse making a comment with actually providing an explanation or an argument, you have made many statements but provided little reasoning or explanations; the fact that you can't or are unwilling to go back and clarify your own statement only exemplifies this.

jhazzroucher said

to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

This is another point you have failed to justify, Having a Solo series is important because it shows haw many people want to read your comics for you, that is one of the defining traits of an A-lister, because as I said before. BTW; I am still waiting on a 'proper' explanation on why using a similar ranking for characters as we do for actors is wrong.

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

jhazzroucher said

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

And getting exposure does not dictate if you're an a-lister or not so this is a moot response because it is your ability to drive sales and bring in revenue that dictates this and not your ability to get carried.

I have already stated

Quantity does not equal quality, many appearances could just mean Marvel is trying to push her, rather than her pushing the team, Solo's are great for gauging how popular a comic character actually is, If Marvel actually thought she could sell, they would have a monthly out, but they don't, Wolverine does, Storm does not. Storm lacking a consistent solo, tells me Marvel does not think she will sell well, and I would assume they based this on how popular they gauge the character really is without the rest of the team to carry them. People might like seeing her on a team or the occasional crossover/visit, but it does not mean they like her enough to buy a solo, and that is one of the major components that separates the A's from everyone else.

1. Marvel is just choosing characters they want to give an ongoing, aside from making money.

2. a solo series is indeed important but it's not a requirement for a character to become an a-lister. Hence we have Cyclops and Storm breaking your opinion.

3. getting more exposure means getting more known and recognizable.

4. Quantity doesn't indeed equal equality but Storm and Cyclops has enough quality and if not enough, the quantity (exposure) that they got adds enough to make them an A-lister

1. Marvel is just choosing characters they want to give an ongoing, aside from making money.

90 pages and you have failed to provide this reason.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. a solo series is indeed important but it's not a requirement for a character to become an a-lister. Hence we have Cyclops and Storm breaking your opinion.

sound familiar? it should

jhazzroucher said

to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

drgnx said:

This is another point you have failed to justify, Having a Solo series is important because it shows haw many people want to read your comics for you, that is one of the defining traits of an A-lister, because as I said before.

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

BTW; I am still waiting on a 'proper' explanation on why using a similar ranking for characters as we do for actors is wrong.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

jhazzroucher said

3. getting more exposure means getting more known and recognizable.

sound familiar? it should

jhazzroucher said

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

drgnx said:

And getting exposure does not dictate if you're an a-lister or not so this is a moot response because it is your ability to drive sales and bring in revenue that dictates this and not your ability to get carried.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

jhazzroucher said

4. Quantity doesn't indeed equal equality but Storm and Cyclops has enough quality and if not enough, the quantity (exposure) that they got adds enough to make them an A-lister

I think I have a quoted response for that.....wait for it .... (also in the above repose) ....

I already said:

And getting exposure does not dictate if you're an a-lister or not so this is a moot response because it is your ability to drive sales and bring in revenue that dictates this and not your ability to get carried.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And don't think it escaped me that you never provided a 'proper' explanation on why using a similar ranking for characters as we do for actors is wrong.

1. oh yes you did fail.

2. Orlando Bloom ?

1. oh yes you did fail.

I know your the expert on fail and all but excuse me if I don't take your word for it my dear.

2. Orlando Bloom ?

What about him?

1. i didn't fail at all. you should check yourself with a mirror.

2. never mind

#1805 Edited by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

I missed some of your points

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

@jhazzroucher said:


2. I don't disagree with this: "...it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister..."

crap, just realized you said you don't disagree .... My bad ... lol!

If you boost sales by 1 subscriber, you've technically boasted sales, do you think that someone who just increases sales by 1 subscriber should be considered an A-lister? There are people who sell 30000 monthly usa comics via solo's who I still don't think would be considered a -listers, x-men sells in the 160000 range, can you honestly guarantee that over 30000 of those are specifically because of Storm? I'ld also like to entertain your thoughts on how many people buy Wolverine and the X-Men for Storm.

06. Savage Wolverine #1 - 102,530
10. Uncanny X-Force #1 - 86,187
13. All New X-Men #6 - 80,195 … 15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007
15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007 … 11. All New X-Men #4 - 80,665
28. Deadpool #4 - 57,061 … 25. Deadpool #3 - 60,215
30. Cable and X-Force #3 - 51,761 … 29. Cable and X-Force #2 - 57,719
37. A Plus X #4 - 48,091 … 32. A Plus X #3 - 56,700
40. Wolverine and the X-Men #24 - 44,716 … 44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963
44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963 ... 45. Wolverine and the X-Men #22 - 45,658
56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673 … 48. X-Men: Legacy #3 -45,407
58. Deadpool: Killustrated #1 - 36,771
62. X-Men: Legacy #5 - 34,823 … 56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673
74. X-MEN#40 - 28,515 … 72. X-MEN #39 - 29,326
81. Astonishing X-Men #58 - 25,159 … 82. Astonishing X-Men #57 - 26,263
84. Wolverine Max #3 - 24,058 … 82. Wolverine Max #2 - 27,217
87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #21 - 23,479 … 87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #20 - 24,789
93. X-Factor #250 - 22,521 … 95. X-Factor #249 - 21,211
94. Gambit #8 - 22,396 … 89. Gambit #7 - 23,978
98. First X-Men #5 - 20,111 … 102. First X-Men #4 - 21,930
107. Age of Apocalypse #11 - 18,555 … 105. Age of Apocalypse #10 - 19,337
129. X-Treme X-Men #9 - 15,529 … 122. X-Treme X-Men #8 - 16,536

http://www.forumforgeeks.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=5167

jhazzroucher said:

3. Still, quantity means something and seeing Storm on top on on most number of appearances among female comic characters is always a good thing

Thats all good, point is that don't make you an A-lister...

1. I don't think so. they even gave Gambit, Mystique, Emma Frost, etc , who were members of a team/

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

2. and i really meant "i agree".

I pointed this out in edited post which you responded to!

3. Indeed, but Storm and Cyclops are an exception.

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

1. and so you're telling me that marvel thinsk the others that i have mentioned would sell better than Storm that's why they didn't give Storm an ongoing|?

Unfortunately, the following response still applies to the answer you gave to it.

I have already said:

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

In case you have not noticed, you judge a-listers based on actual performance. Storm does not have a solo, guessing how well she would sell is completely irrelevant to the topic because she does not sell a solo because she has none.

3. appearances and exposure.

And I'm 100% sure this pointer of yours was addressed, oh wait it was ...

I have already said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

@jhazzroucher said:

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

Do you know how they judge a-list actors? It is not by the amount of movies they show up in, it is by their ability to command leading roles and bring in viewers (bankable value), indeed, there are plenty non-a-listers you see popping up everywhere who don't take leading roles but are still noticeable.

1. no it isn't

2. and you're not taking it into consideration.

3. it's different from comic characters cos number of appearances matters

As I said before :

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

For instance

jhazzroucher said:

1. no it isn't

This would normally be a useful answer if you provided and explanation as to why, preferably one that has not already been shot down, it is most definitely usefully if you actually indicate what you were responding to because as I said before: "In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point". There is some called "context" and this response lacks it in spades.

jhazzroucher said:

and you're not taking it into consideration.

This might be a useful response if you actually said "what I'm not taking into consideration and how it effected my argument", also preferably with points that have not already been shot down (as you may or may not have noticed, I'm very fond of quoting responses I've made to your rehashed arguments).

jhazzroucher said:

. it's different from comic characters cos number of appearances matters

I'm assuming your talking about the a-list actor comparison on which point I'll confess your complete lack of explanation as to why they are different is so convincing...that do you don't have a reason other than you want it to be so. Appearances do matter, especially in solos..wanna guess what Storm does not have?

Hint:

Want to know why I know you don't have a good reason?

Because I addressed your only attempt at making a point several times already

I have already said:

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

1. because i already told you so so no need to explain further.

2 to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

jhazzroucher said

1. because i already told you so so no need to explain further.

Don't confuse making a comment with actually providing an explanation or an argument, you have made many statements but provided little reasoning or explanations; the fact that you can't or are unwilling to go back and clarify your own statement only exemplifies this.

jhazzroucher said

to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

This is another point you have failed to justify, Having a Solo series is important because it shows haw many people want to read your comics for you, that is one of the defining traits of an A-lister, because as I said before. BTW; I am still waiting on a 'proper' explanation on why using a similar ranking for characters as we do for actors is wrong.

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

jhazzroucher said

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

And getting exposure does not dictate if you're an a-lister or not so this is a moot response because it is your ability to drive sales and bring in revenue that dictates this and not your ability to get carried.

I have already stated

Quantity does not equal quality, many appearances could just mean Marvel is trying to push her, rather than her pushing the team, Solo's are great for gauging how popular a comic character actually is, If Marvel actually thought she could sell, they would have a monthly out, but they don't, Wolverine does, Storm does not. Storm lacking a consistent solo, tells me Marvel does not think she will sell well, and I would assume they based this on how popular they gauge the character really is without the rest of the team to carry them. People might like seeing her on a team or the occasional crossover/visit, but it does not mean they like her enough to buy a solo, and that is one of the major components that separates the A's from everyone else.

1. Marvel is just choosing characters they want to give an ongoing, aside from making money.

2. a solo series is indeed important but it's not a requirement for a character to become an a-lister. Hence we have Cyclops and Storm breaking your opinion.

3. getting more exposure means getting more known and recognizable.

4. Quantity doesn't indeed equal equality but Storm and Cyclops has enough quality and if not enough, the quantity (exposure) that they got adds enough to make them an A-lister

1. Marvel is just choosing characters they want to give an ongoing, aside from making money.

90 pages and you have failed to provide this reason.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. a solo series is indeed important but it's not a requirement for a character to become an a-lister. Hence we have Cyclops and Storm breaking your opinion.

sound familiar? it should

jhazzroucher said

to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

drgnx said:

This is another point you have failed to justify, Having a Solo series is important because it shows haw many people want to read your comics for you, that is one of the defining traits of an A-lister, because as I said before.

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

BTW; I am still waiting on a 'proper' explanation on why using a similar ranking for characters as we do for actors is wrong.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

jhazzroucher said

3. getting more exposure means getting more known and recognizable.

sound familiar? it should

jhazzroucher said

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

drgnx said:

And getting exposure does not dictate if you're an a-lister or not so this is a moot response because it is your ability to drive sales and bring in revenue that dictates this and not your ability to get carried.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

jhazzroucher said

4. Quantity doesn't indeed equal equality but Storm and Cyclops has enough quality and if not enough, the quantity (exposure) that they got adds enough to make them an A-lister

I think I have a quoted response for that.....wait for it .... (also in the above repose) ....

I already said:

And getting exposure does not dictate if you're an a-lister or not so this is a moot response because it is your ability to drive sales and bring in revenue that dictates this and not your ability to get carried.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And don't think it escaped me that you never provided a 'proper' explanation on why using a similar ranking for characters as we do for actors is wrong.

1. oh yes you did fail.

2. Orlando Bloom ?

1. oh yes you did fail.

I know your the expert on fail and all but excuse me if I don't take your word for it my dear.

2. Orlando Bloom ?

What about him?

1. i didn't fail at all. you should check yourself with a mirror.

I do, it is called personal hygiene.

2. never mind

You are so adorable (this is what your avatar reminds me of - especially the one in the middle)

hugs for everyone
#1806 Posted by jhazzroucher (16386 posts) - - Show Bio

in conclusion, Storm is an A-list character

#1807 Edited by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

in conclusion, Storm is a TROLL

Fixed

Need proof?

Let "STORM" = "WALDO"

Now, Lets play "Find Waldo"

Here is WALDO

Now

find WALDO

#1808 Posted by Bogey (952 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

in conclusion, Storm is an A-list character

Why did you even make this thread then? Why didn't you put a poll up so people can vote on it? My impression from this whole discussion is that she is not an A-list character, and if she were, it would lower the standard on what A-list means.

#1809 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

#1810 Posted by jhazzroucher (16386 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx: nope.

#1811 Posted by White Mage (18748 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blood1991 said:

I know................i know

#1812 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher:

Yup.

#1813 Posted by jhazzroucher (16386 posts) - - Show Bio

@Walzo said:

@jhazzroucher:

Yup.

nope

#1814 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher:

The X-Men are A-List.

Not Storm.

#1815 Posted by jhazzroucher (16386 posts) - - Show Bio

@Walzo said:

@jhazzroucher:

The X-Men are A-List.

Not Storm.

Storm and Cyclops are.

#1816 Posted by jhazzroucher (16386 posts) - - Show Bio

the x-men is an a-list team, that should mean, some of the members are A-list: Storm, Wolverine and Cyclops

#1817 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

the x-men is an a-list team, that should mean, some of the members are A-list: Storm, Wolverine and Cyclops

No, that's not it at all. The X-men are known for there group appearance, not for singular appearances.

Also, Wolverine is the only one I consider A-list.

#1818 Posted by jhazzroucher (16386 posts) - - Show Bio

@Walzo said:

@jhazzroucher said:

the x-men is an a-list team, that should mean, some of the members are A-list: Storm, Wolverine and Cyclops

No, that's not it at all. The X-men are known for there group appearance, not for singular appearances.

Also, Wolverine is the only one I consider A-list.

not me though.

#1819 Posted by jhazzroucher (16386 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Magneto is also an A-list character

#1820 Posted by moywar700 (2775 posts) - - Show Bio

What does an a-list character even mean?How important the character they are to Marvel?Marvel only cares about money,so if the character makes money,they'll have them high in their list.Any character with a selling title is an a-list character.Storm doesn't have a title but she has had mini's,that counts for something.Mangeto also had a mini too.The holocaust short story and Mangeto,not a hero.Both characters are at least B-List characters since they made money for their mini's.Storm also joined The Avengers and Marvel made a big deal out of it.They do think she makes money but since she doesn't have an on-going,sadly,she's not an A-List character.

#1821 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (20427 posts) - - Show Bio

High end B-List at the very most.

#1822 Edited by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

If we go by certain Logic, then following characters are much higher A-listers than Storm

Alfred pennyworth is an a-list character

He shows up in the vast majority of

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally,

  • Nightwing
  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Batwing

He may have, or is expected to make appearances in

  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman
  • Talon
  • JLA
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows

Commissioner Gordan is an A-list Character

He shows up in the quite frequently in

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics
  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman

(He makes slightly less appearances in the 5 main titles than Alfred, but makes up for it in Batwoman and Batgirl )

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally in:

  • Nightwing
  • JLA

He may have or is expected to make appearances in

  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Talon
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows (not as much as Alfred)

Both those Characters show up in Batman's work but have important ties to the family requiring them be an important part of various characters comics without Batman necessarily making an appearance, thus surpassing Storm, and many other characters in exposure. And because they are important to the Bat-Family they are as much a team-mate as anyone and both Heroes in their own rights. And note that the 5 - main Batman Tittles (underlined above) are in DC's top 10 sellers (might even be in the top 8), add to the success of the movies, their exposure is incontestable. And, with their ever growing back stories and characteristics, their quality of character and background is as quite high ...

#1823 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6521 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx: Alfred is very unlikely to appear in Batwoman.

#1824 Edited by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@drgnx: Alfred is very unlikely to appear in Batwoman.

I know what you mean; It is why he is on that third category, it is for people who may or may not have been referenced or shown up, but still have a chance. Batwomen is the outsider for the Bat family, so Alfred is not likely to deal with her directly. but she has interacted with Batman, and there is always the possibility of a cross-over or team-up which could entail a scene with Batman communicating with Alfred. If Wonder Woman could show up her in comics, I don't see why Alfred wouldn't make a Batman connected appearance down the road. However, there is the possibility that he won't and I could cross him off that comic, but that whole category is for comics that individually have minimal impact on my point (though enough to note as a collective-but even then still minimal).

#1825 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6521 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx:The Wonder Woman appearance made sense though.

I suppose it's slightly possible that she might meet Alfred at some point, but I kinda hope not.

#1826 Edited by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@drgnx:The Wonder Woman appearance made sense though.

I suppose it's slightly possible that she might meet Alfred at some point, but I kinda hope not.

Oh, I'm not trying to indicate that WW appearance didn't jive, I liked it, and it was well done, just pointing out DC can have Alfred in a cameo without it being too far offbeat.

I don't mean BW actually has to meet Al, I'm thinking along the lines of Batman could be talking to Alfred on the radio,asking for some kind of assistance when Batman makes an appearance in Batwoman's comics, kind of how Jim and Batwoman "primarily" interact with Batwoman's girlfriend instead of directly with eachother.

Also, I thought Batwoman is related to Bruce via his mothers side, could also interact via their civilian identities for a major event at Wanye manner or something, but wasn't really what I had in mind (the above post was). I think they could find ways to make it work.

#1827 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6521 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx:O.K., that seems more likely.

#1828 Posted by jhazzroucher (16386 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

If we go by certain Logic, then following characters are much higher A-listers than Storm

Alfred pennyworth is an a-list character

He shows up in the vast majority of

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally,

  • Nightwing
  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Batwing

He may have, or is expected to make appearances in

  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman
  • Talon
  • JLA
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows

Commissioner Gordan is an A-list Character

He shows up in the quite frequently in

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics
  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman

(He makes slightly less appearances in the 5 main titles than Alfred, but makes up for it in Batwoman and Batgirl )

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally in:

  • Nightwing
  • JLA

He may have or is expected to make appearances in

  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Talon
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows (not as much as Alfred)

Both those Characters show up in Batman's work but have important ties to the family requiring them be an important part of various characters comics without Batman necessarily making an appearance, thus surpassing Storm, and many other characters in exposure. And because they are important to the Bat-Family they are as much a team-mate as anyone and both Heroes in their own rights. And note that the 5 - main Batman Tittles (underlined above) are in DC's top 10 sellers (might even be in the top 8), add to the success of the movies, their exposure is incontestable. And, with their ever growing back stories and characteristics, their quality of character and background is as quite high ...

nice try but eventhough both characters showed up in different comics, they still didn't beat Storm in number of appearances in comics.

Number of appearances in comics

Ororo Munroe aka Storm: 4,989

Alfred: 2,281

Gordon: 2,467

Same goes to cartoons, video games and films

#1829 Edited by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

If we go by certain Logic, then following characters are much higher A-listers than Storm

Alfred pennyworth is an a-list character

He shows up in the vast majority of

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally,

  • Nightwing
  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Batwing

He may have, or is expected to make appearances in

  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman
  • Talon
  • JLA
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows

Commissioner Gordan is an A-list Character

He shows up in the quite frequently in

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics
  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman

(He makes slightly less appearances in the 5 main titles than Alfred, but makes up for it in Batwoman and Batgirl )

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally in:

  • Nightwing
  • JLA

He may have or is expected to make appearances in

  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Talon
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows (not as much as Alfred)

Both those Characters show up in Batman's work but have important ties to the family requiring them be an important part of various characters comics without Batman necessarily making an appearance, thus surpassing Storm, and many other characters in exposure. And because they are important to the Bat-Family they are as much a team-mate as anyone and both Heroes in their own rights. And note that the 5 - main Batman Tittles (underlined above) are in DC's top 10 sellers (might even be in the top 8), add to the success of the movies, their exposure is incontestable. And, with their ever growing back stories and characteristics, their quality of character and background is as quite high ...

nice try but eventhough both characters showed up in different comics, they still didn't beat Storm in number of appearances in comics.

Number of appearances in comics

Ororo Munroe aka Storm: 4,989

Alfred: 2,281

Gordon: 2,467

Same goes to cartoons, video games and films

Don't forget movies, and shows, which provide much more exposure than comics Storm was in 3 movies, the ones I pointed out were in 7 (2 of which raked in over 1 billion).

Also, you will notice that the issues I've listed are in current volumes. In case you have not gotten it, the A list changes regularly, just as characters can join, they can fall off. Currently Alfred and Gordan are getting more exposure by being more successful comics alone, but if you look at them over time they were in the 50 show that had popular reruns well into the 90's 2 sets of movies and several animations via movies and shows. While storm was in comics, they were on TV, when Storm got into cartoons they were in movies, when Atorm was in movies they were in animations and growing in comic popularity. now when Storm is back to mainly comics and an upcoming movie they were very prominent in comics and still have the Nolan Wave to ride on. Storm may have had the edge over them in comics a few years ago, but currently they are much more exposure.

#1830 Posted by jhazzroucher (16386 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

If we go by certain Logic, then following characters are much higher A-listers than Storm

Alfred pennyworth is an a-list character

He shows up in the vast majority of

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally,

  • Nightwing
  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Batwing

He may have, or is expected to make appearances in

  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman
  • Talon
  • JLA
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows

Commissioner Gordan is an A-list Character

He shows up in the quite frequently in

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics
  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman

(He makes slightly less appearances in the 5 main titles than Alfred, but makes up for it in Batwoman and Batgirl )

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally in:

  • Nightwing
  • JLA

He may have or is expected to make appearances in

  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Talon
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows (not as much as Alfred)

Both those Characters show up in Batman's work but have important ties to the family requiring them be an important part of various characters comics without Batman necessarily making an appearance, thus surpassing Storm, and many other characters in exposure. And because they are important to the Bat-Family they are as much a team-mate as anyone and both Heroes in their own rights. And note that the 5 - main Batman Tittles (underlined above) are in DC's top 10 sellers (might even be in the top 8), add to the success of the movies, their exposure is incontestable. And, with their ever growing back stories and characteristics, their quality of character and background is as quite high ...

nice try but eventhough both characters showed up in different comics, they still didn't beat Storm in number of appearances in comics.

Number of appearances in comics

Ororo Munroe aka Storm: 4,989

Alfred: 2,281

Gordon: 2,467

Same goes to cartoons, video games and films

Don't forget movies, and shows, which provide much more exposure than comics Storm was in 3 movies, the ones I pointed out were in 7 (2 of which raked in over 1 billion).

Again, it's overall not just in movies and shows, but in commercials, newspapers, merchandises, etc and Storm would still lead against them.

#1831 Posted by jhazzroucher (16386 posts) - - Show Bio

and don't forget video games too.

#1832 Edited by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

If we go by certain Logic, then following characters are much higher A-listers than Storm

Alfred pennyworth is an a-list character

He shows up in the vast majority of

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally,

  • Nightwing
  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Batwing

He may have, or is expected to make appearances in

  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman
  • Talon
  • JLA
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows

Commissioner Gordan is an A-list Character

He shows up in the quite frequently in

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics
  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman

(He makes slightly less appearances in the 5 main titles than Alfred, but makes up for it in Batwoman and Batgirl )

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally in:

  • Nightwing
  • JLA

He may have or is expected to make appearances in

  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Talon
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows (not as much as Alfred)

Both those Characters show up in Batman's work but have important ties to the family requiring them be an important part of various characters comics without Batman necessarily making an appearance, thus surpassing Storm, and many other characters in exposure. And because they are important to the Bat-Family they are as much a team-mate as anyone and both Heroes in their own rights. And note that the 5 - main Batman Tittles (underlined above) are in DC's top 10 sellers (might even be in the top 8), add to the success of the movies, their exposure is incontestable. And, with their ever growing back stories and characteristics, their quality of character and background is as quite high ...

nice try but eventhough both characters showed up in different comics, they still didn't beat Storm in number of appearances in comics.

Number of appearances in comics

Ororo Munroe aka Storm: 4,989

Alfred: 2,281

Gordon: 2,467

Same goes to cartoons, video games and films

Don't forget movies, and shows, which provide much more exposure than comics Storm was in 3 movies, the ones I pointed out were in 7 (2 of which raked in over 1 billion).

Again, it's overall not just in movies and shows, but in commercials, newspapers, merchandises, etc and Storm would still lead against them.

Also, you will notice that the issues I've listed are in current volumes. In case you have not gotten it, the A list changes regularly, just as characters can join, they can fall off. Currently Alfred and Gordan are getting more exposure by being more successful comics alone, but if you look at them over time they were in the 50 show that had popular reruns well into the 90's 2 sets of movies and several animations via movies and shows. While storm was in comics, they were on TV, when Storm got into cartoons they were in movies, when Storm was in movies, they were in animations and growing in comic popularity. now when Storm is back to mainly comics and an upcoming movie they were very prominent in comics and still have the Nolan Wave to ride on. Storm may have had the edge over them in comics a few years ago, but currently they are much more exposure.

@jhazzroucher said:

and don't forget video games too.

Yes in which case the Arkham games would be killer against your case, sorry but the A list does have a time dimension.

#1833 Posted by kmiller9959 (34 posts) - - Show Bio

Just my opinion, but in order to be an A-lister, a character should be able to consistently carry a solo title. Storm is definitely B-list. Iron Man is A-list. Superman is A-list. Thor is A-list. Storm is not. It's worth mentioning that I would definitely buy a Storm ongoing.

#1834 Posted by jhazzroucher (16386 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

If we go by certain Logic, then following characters are much higher A-listers than Storm

Alfred pennyworth is an a-list character

He shows up in the vast majority of

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally,

  • Nightwing
  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Batwing

He may have, or is expected to make appearances in

  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman
  • Talon
  • JLA
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows

Commissioner Gordan is an A-list Character

He shows up in the quite frequently in

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics
  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman

(He makes slightly less appearances in the 5 main titles than Alfred, but makes up for it in Batwoman and Batgirl )

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally in:

  • Nightwing
  • JLA

He may have or is expected to make appearances in

  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Talon
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows (not as much as Alfred)

Both those Characters show up in Batman's work but have important ties to the family requiring them be an important part of various characters comics without Batman necessarily making an appearance, thus surpassing Storm, and many other characters in exposure. And because they are important to the Bat-Family they are as much a team-mate as anyone and both Heroes in their own rights. And note that the 5 - main Batman Tittles (underlined above) are in DC's top 10 sellers (might even be in the top 8), add to the success of the movies, their exposure is incontestable. And, with their ever growing back stories and characteristics, their quality of character and background is as quite high ...

nice try but eventhough both characters showed up in different comics, they still didn't beat Storm in number of appearances in comics.

Number of appearances in comics

Ororo Munroe aka Storm: 4,989

Alfred: 2,281

Gordon: 2,467

Same goes to cartoons, video games and films

Don't forget movies, and shows, which provide much more exposure than comics Storm was in 3 movies, the ones I pointed out were in 7 (2 of which raked in over 1 billion).

Again, it's overall not just in movies and shows, but in commercials, newspapers, merchandises, etc and Storm would still lead against them.

Also, you will notice that the issues I've listed are in current volumes. In case you have not gotten it, the A list changes regularly, just as characters can join, they can fall off. Currently Alfred and Gordan are getting more exposure by being more successful comics alone, but if you look at them over time they were in the 50 show that had popular reruns well into the 90's 2 sets of movies and several animations via movies and shows. While storm was in comics, they were on TV, when Storm got into cartoons they were in movies, when Atorm was in movies they were in animations and growing in comic popularity. now when Storm is back to mainly comics and an upcoming movie they were very prominent in comics and still have the Nolan Wave to ride on. Storm may have had the edge over them in comics a few years ago, but currently they are much more exposure.

Storm 's exposure hasn't gone down. She's always been there.

They got there first but Storm is after them and if Storm is after them, why is Storm leading in number of appearances? well, she's A-list!

#1835 Posted by jhazzroucher (16386 posts) - - Show Bio

in comics, currently??? hopefully, they'll keep it up or they'll never manage to keep up with Storm.

#1836 Posted by Vance Astro (91364 posts) - - Show Bio
@kmiller9959 said:
Just my opinion, but in order to be an A-lister, a character should be able to consistently carry a solo title. Storm is definitely B-list. Iron Man is A-list. Superman is A-list. Thor is A-list. Storm is not. It's worth mentioning that I would definitely buy a Storm ongoing.
Moderator
#1837 Edited by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

If we go by certain Logic, then following characters are much higher A-listers than Storm

Alfred pennyworth is an a-list character

He shows up in the vast majority of

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally,

  • Nightwing
  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Batwing

He may have, or is expected to make appearances in

  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman
  • Talon
  • JLA
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows

Commissioner Gordan is an A-list Character

He shows up in the quite frequently in

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics
  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman

(He makes slightly less appearances in the 5 main titles than Alfred, but makes up for it in Batwoman and Batgirl )

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally in:

  • Nightwing
  • JLA

He may have or is expected to make appearances in

  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Talon
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows (not as much as Alfred)

Both those Characters show up in Batman's work but have important ties to the family requiring them be an important part of various characters comics without Batman necessarily making an appearance, thus surpassing Storm, and many other characters in exposure. And because they are important to the Bat-Family they are as much a team-mate as anyone and both Heroes in their own rights. And note that the 5 - main Batman Tittles (underlined above) are in DC's top 10 sellers (might even be in the top 8), add to the success of the movies, their exposure is incontestable. And, with their ever growing back stories and characteristics, their quality of character and background is as quite high ...

nice try but eventhough both characters showed up in different comics, they still didn't beat Storm in number of appearances in comics.

Number of appearances in comics

Ororo Munroe aka Storm: 4,989

Alfred: 2,281

Gordon: 2,467

Same goes to cartoons, video games and films

Don't forget movies, and shows, which provide much more exposure than comics Storm was in 3 movies, the ones I pointed out were in 7 (2 of which raked in over 1 billion).

Again, it's overall not just in movies and shows, but in commercials, newspapers, merchandises, etc and Storm would still lead against them.

Also, you will notice that the issues I've listed are in current volumes. In case you have not gotten it, the A list changes regularly, just as characters can join, they can fall off. Currently Alfred and Gordan are getting more exposure by being more successful comics alone, but if you look at them over time they were in the 50 show that had popular reruns well into the 90's 2 sets of movies and several animations via movies and shows. While storm was in comics, they were on TV, when Storm got into cartoons they were in movies, when Atorm was in movies they were in animations and growing in comic popularity. now when Storm is back to mainly comics and an upcoming movie they were very prominent in comics and still have the Nolan Wave to ride on. Storm may have had the edge over them in comics a few years ago, but currently they are much more exposure.

Storm 's exposure hasn't gone down. She's always been there.

They got there first but Storm is after them and if Storm is after them, why is Storm leading in number of appearances? well, she's A-list!

As I pointed out in my first post, before I adopted the solo, requirement, Storm could have been A-list at some point and may yet be, but is not right now.

In other words, Exposure part of the a-list is more than the amounts of work you appear in over the last 50+ years, there is a sales/exposure within a given time element, in which case the Batman Franchise killing the X-men (specifically with storm appearances) in current times and at a period when Gordan and Alfred are getting much more face time (in the comics).

#1838 Posted by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

in comics, currently??? hopefully, they'll keep it up or they'll never manage to keep up with Storm.

They don't need to catch Up, the they just need to keep a certain level of exposure above storm to stay on the list above Storm, if were are looking at just the comic aspect.

#1839 Posted by jhazzroucher (16386 posts) - - Show Bio

and both Alfred and Gordon started early, near 1940's while Storm started at year 1975 and she still managed to beat them in number of appearances in a shorter span of time

#1840 Posted by jhazzroucher (16386 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

If we go by certain Logic, then following characters are much higher A-listers than Storm

Alfred pennyworth is an a-list character

He shows up in the vast majority of

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally,

  • Nightwing
  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Batwing

He may have, or is expected to make appearances in

  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman
  • Talon
  • JLA
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows

Commissioner Gordan is an A-list Character

He shows up in the quite frequently in

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics
  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman

(He makes slightly less appearances in the 5 main titles than Alfred, but makes up for it in Batwoman and Batgirl )

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally in:

  • Nightwing
  • JLA

He may have or is expected to make appearances in

  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Talon
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows (not as much as Alfred)

Both those Characters show up in Batman's work but have important ties to the family requiring them be an important part of various characters comics without Batman necessarily making an appearance, thus surpassing Storm, and many other characters in exposure. And because they are important to the Bat-Family they are as much a team-mate as anyone and both Heroes in their own rights. And note that the 5 - main Batman Tittles (underlined above) are in DC's top 10 sellers (might even be in the top 8), add to the success of the movies, their exposure is incontestable. And, with their ever growing back stories and characteristics, their quality of character and background is as quite high ...

nice try but eventhough both characters showed up in different comics, they still didn't beat Storm in number of appearances in comics.

Number of appearances in comics

Ororo Munroe aka Storm: 4,989

Alfred: 2,281

Gordon: 2,467

Same goes to cartoons, video games and films

Don't forget movies, and shows, which provide much more exposure than comics Storm was in 3 movies, the ones I pointed out were in 7 (2 of which raked in over 1 billion).

Again, it's overall not just in movies and shows, but in commercials, newspapers, merchandises, etc and Storm would still lead against them.

Also, you will notice that the issues I've listed are in current volumes. In case you have not gotten it, the A list changes regularly, just as characters can join, they can fall off. Currently Alfred and Gordan are getting more exposure by being more successful comics alone, but if you look at them over time they were in the 50 show that had popular reruns well into the 90's 2 sets of movies and several animations via movies and shows. While storm was in comics, they were on TV, when Storm got into cartoons they were in movies, when Atorm was in movies they were in animations and growing in comic popularity. now when Storm is back to mainly comics and an upcoming movie they were very prominent in comics and still have the Nolan Wave to ride on. Storm may have had the edge over them in comics a few years ago, but currently they are much more exposure.

Storm 's exposure hasn't gone down. She's always been there.

They got there first but Storm is after them and if Storm is after them, why is Storm leading in number of appearances? well, she's A-list!

As I pointed out in my first post, before I adopted the solo, requirement, Storm could have been A-list at some point and may yet be, but is not right now.

In other words, Exposure part of the a-list is more than the amounts of work you appear in over the last 50+ years, there is a sales/exposure within a given time element, in which case the Batman Franchise killing the X-men (specifically with storm appearances) in current times and at a period when Gordan and Alfred are getting much more face time (in the comics).

specifically with Storm appearances??? are you sure about that? Storm has the most number of appearances in most categories among female characters

#1841 Posted by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

and both Alfred and Gordon started early, near 1940's while Storm started at year 1975 and she still managed to beat them in number of appearances in a shorter span of time

Only in the number of "comics" she appeared in. Storm may have beaten them in comic appearances because they were focused on bigger things. Besides, business is not about what you did yesterday, it is about what you're doing now. Telling me she had more appearances historically does not change the fact that currently they are back with a vengeance... The fact you are trying to defend her historical performance (in comics) only emphasizes my point... Currently, Storm is behind them.

#1842 Edited by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

If we go by certain Logic, then following characters are much higher A-listers than Storm

Alfred pennyworth is an a-list character

He shows up in the vast majority of

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally,

  • Nightwing
  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Batwing

He may have, or is expected to make appearances in

  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman
  • Talon
  • JLA
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows

Commissioner Gordan is an A-list Character

He shows up in the quite frequently in

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics
  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman

(He makes slightly less appearances in the 5 main titles than Alfred, but makes up for it in Batwoman and Batgirl )

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally in:

  • Nightwing
  • JLA

He may have or is expected to make appearances in

  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Talon
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows (not as much as Alfred)

Both those Characters show up in Batman's work but have important ties to the family requiring them be an important part of various characters comics without Batman necessarily making an appearance, thus surpassing Storm, and many other characters in exposure. And because they are important to the Bat-Family they are as much a team-mate as anyone and both Heroes in their own rights. And note that the 5 - main Batman Tittles (underlined above) are in DC's top 10 sellers (might even be in the top 8), add to the success of the movies, their exposure is incontestable. And, with their ever growing back stories and characteristics, their quality of character and background is as quite high ...

nice try but eventhough both characters showed up in different comics, they still didn't beat Storm in number of appearances in comics.

Number of appearances in comics

Ororo Munroe aka Storm: 4,989

Alfred: 2,281

Gordon: 2,467

Same goes to cartoons, video games and films

Don't forget movies, and shows, which provide much more exposure than comics Storm was in 3 movies, the ones I pointed out were in 7 (2 of which raked in over 1 billion).

Again, it's overall not just in movies and shows, but in commercials, newspapers, merchandises, etc and Storm would still lead against them.

Also, you will notice that the issues I've listed are in current volumes. In case you have not gotten it, the A list changes regularly, just as characters can join, they can fall off. Currently Alfred and Gordan are getting more exposure by being more successful comics alone, but if you look at them over time they were in the 50 show that had popular reruns well into the 90's 2 sets of movies and several animations via movies and shows. While storm was in comics, they were on TV, when Storm got into cartoons they were in movies, when Atorm was in movies they were in animations and growing in comic popularity. now when Storm is back to mainly comics and an upcoming movie they were very prominent in comics and still have the Nolan Wave to ride on. Storm may have had the edge over them in comics a few years ago, but currently they are much more exposure.

Storm 's exposure hasn't gone down. She's always been there.

They got there first but Storm is after them and if Storm is after them, why is Storm leading in number of appearances? well, she's A-list!

As I pointed out in my first post, before I adopted the solo, requirement, Storm could have been A-list at some point and may yet be, but is not right now.

In other words, Exposure part of the a-list is more than the amounts of work you appear in over the last 50+ years, there is a sales/exposure within a given time element, in which case the Batman Franchise killing the X-men (specifically with storm appearances) in current times and at a period when Gordan and Alfred are getting much more face time (in the comics).

specifically with Storm appearances??? are you sure about that? Storm has the most number of appearances in most categories among female characters

Females, but does she surpass or rival others like Wolverine, Spiderman, or certain Avengers in the $$$ they bring in during current times?

In business, if you are rating your assets, you look more on current and future benefits more than historical. You don't rate based on the total money ever, is has made and is making; you say: it made X$ so far, but in the future can only make C$ per year (or whatever),. You rate based on C, not X.

#1843 Posted by PowerHerc (85153 posts) - - Show Bio

No.

If she was she'd have her own ongoing and she's be making cameos in every book Marvel publishes.

She's just not an A-lister.

#1844 Posted by jhazzroucher (16386 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc said:

No.

If she was she'd have her own ongoing and she's be making cameos in every book Marvel publishes.

She's just not an A-lister.

I think her numbers prove it.

#1845 Posted by jhazzroucher (16386 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

If we go by certain Logic, then following characters are much higher A-listers than Storm

Alfred pennyworth is an a-list character

He shows up in the vast majority of

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally,

  • Nightwing
  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Batwing

He may have, or is expected to make appearances in

  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman
  • Talon
  • JLA
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows

Commissioner Gordan is an A-list Character

He shows up in the quite frequently in

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics
  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman

(He makes slightly less appearances in the 5 main titles than Alfred, but makes up for it in Batwoman and Batgirl )

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally in:

  • Nightwing
  • JLA

He may have or is expected to make appearances in

  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Talon
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows (not as much as Alfred)

Both those Characters show up in Batman's work but have important ties to the family requiring them be an important part of various characters comics without Batman necessarily making an appearance, thus surpassing Storm, and many other characters in exposure. And because they are important to the Bat-Family they are as much a team-mate as anyone and both Heroes in their own rights. And note that the 5 - main Batman Tittles (underlined above) are in DC's top 10 sellers (might even be in the top 8), add to the success of the movies, their exposure is incontestable. And, with their ever growing back stories and characteristics, their quality of character and background is as quite high ...

nice try but eventhough both characters showed up in different comics, they still didn't beat Storm in number of appearances in comics.

Number of appearances in comics

Ororo Munroe aka Storm: 4,989

Alfred: 2,281

Gordon: 2,467

Same goes to cartoons, video games and films

Don't forget movies, and shows, which provide much more exposure than comics Storm was in 3 movies, the ones I pointed out were in 7 (2 of which raked in over 1 billion).

Again, it's overall not just in movies and shows, but in commercials, newspapers, merchandises, etc and Storm would still lead against them.

Also, you will notice that the issues I've listed are in current volumes. In case you have not gotten it, the A list changes regularly, just as characters can join, they can fall off. Currently Alfred and Gordan are getting more exposure by being more successful comics alone, but if you look at them over time they were in the 50 show that had popular reruns well into the 90's 2 sets of movies and several animations via movies and shows. While storm was in comics, they were on TV, when Storm got into cartoons they were in movies, when Atorm was in movies they were in animations and growing in comic popularity. now when Storm is back to mainly comics and an upcoming movie they were very prominent in comics and still have the Nolan Wave to ride on. Storm may have had the edge over them in comics a few years ago, but currently they are much more exposure.

Storm 's exposure hasn't gone down. She's always been there.

They got there first but Storm is after them and if Storm is after them, why is Storm leading in number of appearances? well, she's A-list!

As I pointed out in my first post, before I adopted the solo, requirement, Storm could have been A-list at some point and may yet be, but is not right now.

In other words, Exposure part of the a-list is more than the amounts of work you appear in over the last 50+ years, there is a sales/exposure within a given time element, in which case the Batman Franchise killing the X-men (specifically with storm appearances) in current times and at a period when Gordan and Alfred are getting much more face time (in the comics).

specifically with Storm appearances??? are you sure about that? Storm has the most number of appearances in most categories among female characters

Females, but does she surpass or rival others like Wolverine, Spiderman, or certain Avengers in the $$$ they bring in during current times?

In business, if you are rating your assets, you look more on current and future benefits more than historical. You don't rate based on the total money ever, is has made and is making; you say: it made X$ so far, but in the future can only make C$ per year (or whatever),. You rate based on C, not X.

well, at least Storm's up there and somebody to reckon with

#1846 Edited by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

If we go by certain Logic, then following characters are much higher A-listers than Storm

Alfred pennyworth is an a-list character

He shows up in the vast majority of

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally,

  • Nightwing
  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Batwing

He may have, or is expected to make appearances in

  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman
  • Talon
  • JLA
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows

Commissioner Gordan is an A-list Character

He shows up in the quite frequently in

  • Batman
  • Batman the dark knight
  • Batman Inc
  • Batman and Robin
  • Detective comics
  • Batgirl
  • Batwoman

(He makes slightly less appearances in the 5 main titles than Alfred, but makes up for it in Batwoman and Batgirl )

He shows up, or is referenced occasionally in:

  • Nightwing
  • JLA

He may have or is expected to make appearances in

  • Redhood and the outlaws
  • Teen Titans
  • Catwoman (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)
  • Talon
  • Birds of Prey (don't read so not sure - would be surprised if not)

Plus he shows up in

  • All the Live Action Movies
  • The majority of Animated movies with Batman
  • Almost all Batman dedicated shows (animated and live action - might be referenced in Beyond)
  • Occasionally in Batman team-up based shows (not as much as Alfred)

Both those Characters show up in Batman's work but have important ties to the family requiring them be an important part of various characters comics without Batman necessarily making an appearance, thus surpassing Storm, and many other characters in exposure. And because they are important to the Bat-Family they are as much a team-mate as anyone and both Heroes in their own rights. And note that the 5 - main Batman Tittles (underlined above) are in DC's top 10 sellers (might even be in the top 8), add to the success of the movies, their exposure is incontestable. And, with their ever growing back stories and characteristics, their quality of character and background is as quite high ...

nice try but eventhough both characters showed up in different comics, they still didn't beat Storm in number of appearances in comics.

Number of appearances in comics

Ororo Munroe aka Storm: 4,989

Alfred: 2,281

Gordon: 2,467

Same goes to cartoons, video games and films

Don't forget movies, and shows, which provide much more exposure than comics Storm was in 3 movies, the ones I pointed out were in 7 (2 of which raked in over 1 billion).

Again, it's overall not just in movies and shows, but in commercials, newspapers, merchandises, etc and Storm would still lead against them.

Also, you will notice that the issues I've listed are in current volumes. In case you have not gotten it, the A list changes regularly, just as characters can join, they can fall off. Currently Alfred and Gordan are getting more exposure by being more successful comics alone, but if you look at them over time they were in the 50 show that had popular reruns well into the 90's 2 sets of movies and several animations via movies and shows. While storm was in comics, they were on TV, when Storm got into cartoons they were in movies, when Atorm was in movies they were in animations and growing in comic popularity. now when Storm is back to mainly comics and an upcoming movie they were very prominent in comics and still have the Nolan Wave to ride on. Storm may have had the edge over them in comics a few years ago, but currently they are much more exposure.

Storm 's exposure hasn't gone down. She's always been there.

They got there first but Storm is after them and if Storm is after them, why is Storm leading in number of appearances? well, she's A-list!

As I pointed out in my first post, before I adopted the solo, requirement, Storm could have been A-list at some point and may yet be, but is not right now.

In other words, Exposure part of the a-list is more than the amounts of work you appear in over the last 50+ years, there is a sales/exposure within a given time element, in which case the Batman Franchise killing the X-men (specifically with storm appearances) in current times and at a period when Gordan and Alfred are getting much more face time (in the comics).

specifically with Storm appearances??? are you sure about that? Storm has the most number of appearances in most categories among female characters

Females, but does she surpass or rival others like Wolverine, Spiderman, or certain Avengers in the $$$ they bring in during current times?

In business, if you are rating your assets, you look more on current and future benefits more than historical. You don't rate based on the total money ever, is has made and is making; you say: it made X$ so far, but in the future can only make C$ per year (or whatever),. You rate based on C, not X.

well, at least Storm's up there and somebody to reckon with

And I don't think anyone here disputes that, or at least in the pages I have read. Its just a matter of many participating on this thread feeling, having a solo should be a criteria. Joker is an A - list villain but not an A list character (fair is fair), I'd say create a list of A - list of teams and A-list team-based characters.

My opinion would be that A -list team-based characters on A - list teams and A - list villains of A-list characters would be B+ characters and without that status you're B at best.

#1847 Posted by Vance Astro (91364 posts) - - Show Bio
@jhazzroucher said:

@PowerHerc said:

No.

If she was she'd have her own ongoing and she's be making cameos in every book Marvel publishes.

She's just not an A-lister.

I think her numbers prove it.

Actually #'s prove the opposite.
Moderator
#1848 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@PowerHerc said:

No.

If she was she'd have her own ongoing and she's be making cameos in every book Marvel publishes.

She's just not an A-lister.

I think her numbers prove it.

Except they aren't her numbers.

#1849 Posted by cuddles666 (310 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher: I think she was treated as an A-lister until recently. Nowadays, Marvel seems to be playing Black Widow as their main female, with Captain Marvel as a close second. It sucks, it really does.

#1850 Posted by PowerHerc (85153 posts) - - Show Bio

@Walzo said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@PowerHerc said:

No.

If she was she'd have her own ongoing and she's be making cameos in every book Marvel publishes.

She's just not an A-lister.

I think her numbers prove it.

Except they aren't her numbers.

Lol. True, how true! They're the X-Men's numbers.

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