Is Ororo Munroe aka Storm an A-List Character?

#1751 Posted by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@Vance Astro said:

@jhazzroucher said:

no.

Hello pointless last word bump on page 67!

it's not pointless. Yours is. lol : )

@drgnx said:

She could have been, might have even been, may still yet some day be, but I don't think she is now. I never hear of Storm outside this thread...like ever....

A true fan shouldn't even care, none of my favorite characters are A list... Okay that is a lie, but I still have many characters I like that are not A list...not that that actually means anything in context of this thread...

Okay look ,..., ...., ...., ....., I got it: You like Storm and it shouldn't matter if she A-list or not if you are a true fan!!!

I am an solid fan of Hollow/Penance from generation X but I don't tell people she's A-list cos she's not. But for Storm, you cannot blame us because she has a lot of exposure on all forms of media, numbers that are higher than almost all female characters.

The A-list don't care about your gender, how you do proportional to other females is irrelevant.

so tell me, is there any female character who is an A-list?

Wonder Women, might be the only one I think off, but even she is struggling, her solo is the lowest selling of all the core 7 JL (that have solos). Still she has animated movies, and spin-offs, but none of which have their own solo's at the moment. I can honestly say she is boarding A to B+ along with Aquaman, who does not have spin-offs but is selling very well in his solo.

There is a bit of grey there as technically speaking, Green Arrow is getting more coverage than them, with his show and Arrow comic, even if his "green arrow" comic might not be a hot seller. If she gets her show going and it does well, it would certainly put her in the A range incontestably.

Batgirl could be another contender as she has her own solo and is also part of Birds of Prey and sells well, but gets grouped with Bat Women for some of the animations, she has potential to be an A lister.

There are plenty of well like characters with Solo's who I still would not consider a listers, or very borderline.

so why is Storm not a contender when Storm is doing well on all forms of media. She even has higher number of appearances on films, video games (by a mile), cartoons and comics (almost 1,000 gap) and you're thinking WW is the only one who could be?

It is not really a matter of just appearances. It is a matter of your ability to sell, on your own. If you can't sell your own comic, you're probably not an A-lister, you're at best a strong Supporting character. Sure, you might be part of the team, and as such, a good supporting character, but an a-lister needs to be able to stand on their own as well as support the team comics. If Storm had her own solo right now, with everything else, I would consider her for the A-list, but until than, she is just a strong Supporting character. Exposure in games is still support if she is not the star.

yes it does. especially back when Storm had less number of appearance in comics, it was being taken into consideration but now that Storm surpass WW's numbers, they wouldn't not consider it anymore. But it's ok. It still is something to be considered.

Yes what does? Quantity does not equal quality, many appearances could just mean Marvel is trying to push her, rather than her pushing the team, Solo's are great for gauging how popular a comic character actually is, If Marvel actually thought she could sell, they would have a monthly out, but they don't, Wolverine does, Storm does not. Storm lacking a consistent solo, tells me Marvel does not think she will sell well, and I would assume they based this on how popular they gauge the character really is without the rest of the team to carry them. People might like seeing her on a team or the occasional crossover/visit, but it does not mean they like her enough to buy a solo, and that is one of the major components that separates the A's from everyone else.

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

Having an ongoing solo doesn't mean you're A-list.

being just part of a team doesn't mean you can't be an A-list.

Completely useless statements as I have not claimed otherwise...

Many characters with Solo's are not A-listers, and most A-listers (to be honest, all the ones I can think of, for at least DC) are part of teams along with having solos.

#1752 Posted by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@jhazzroucher said:

well not really but considering that sh even doesn't have her own solo, it's a fact that she beat them in number of appearances

I think not having a solo is WHY she beat them in number of appearances. She HAS TO appear in other characters books or not at all.

... you summed my entire line of thought in one sentence ... :(

#1753 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@Vance Astro said:

@jhazzroucher said:

no.

Hello pointless last word bump on page 67!

it's not pointless. Yours is. lol : )

@drgnx said:

She could have been, might have even been, may still yet some day be, but I don't think she is now. I never hear of Storm outside this thread...like ever....

A true fan shouldn't even care, none of my favorite characters are A list... Okay that is a lie, but I still have many characters I like that are not A list...not that that actually means anything in context of this thread...

Okay look ,..., ...., ...., ....., I got it: You like Storm and it shouldn't matter if she A-list or not if you are a true fan!!!

I am an solid fan of Hollow/Penance from generation X but I don't tell people she's A-list cos she's not. But for Storm, you cannot blame us because she has a lot of exposure on all forms of media, numbers that are higher than almost all female characters.

The A-list don't care about your gender, how you do proportional to other females is irrelevant.

so tell me, is there any female character who is an A-list?

Wonder Women, might be the only one I think off, but even she is struggling, her solo is the lowest selling of all the core 7 JL (that have solos). Still she has animated movies, and spin-offs, but none of which have their own solo's at the moment. I can honestly say she is boarding A to B+ along with Aquaman, who does not have spin-offs but is selling very well in his solo.

There is a bit of grey there as technically speaking, Green Arrow is getting more coverage than them, with his show and Arrow comic, even if his "green arrow" comic might not be a hot seller. If she gets her show going and it does well, it would certainly put her in the A range incontestably.

Batgirl could be another contender as she has her own solo and is also part of Birds of Prey and sells well, but gets grouped with Bat Women for some of the animations, she has potential to be an A lister.

There are plenty of well like characters with Solo's who I still would not consider a listers, or very borderline.

so why is Storm not a contender when Storm is doing well on all forms of media. She even has higher number of appearances on films, video games (by a mile), cartoons and comics (almost 1,000 gap) and you're thinking WW is the only one who could be?

It is not really a matter of just appearances. It is a matter of your ability to sell, on your own. If you can't sell your own comic, you're probably not an A-lister, you're at best a strong Supporting character. Sure, you might be part of the team, and as such, a good supporting character, but an a-lister needs to be able to stand on their own as well as support the team comics. If Storm had her own solo right now, with everything else, I would consider her for the A-list, but until than, she is just a strong Supporting character. Exposure in games is still support if she is not the star.

yes it does. especially back when Storm had less number of appearance in comics, it was being taken into consideration but now that Storm surpass WW's numbers, they wouldn't not consider it anymore. But it's ok. It still is something to be considered.

Yes what does? Quantity does not equal quality, many appearances could just mean Marvel is trying to push her, rather than her pushing the team, Solo's are great for gauging how popular a comic character actually is, If Marvel actually thought she could sell, they would have a monthly out, but they don't, Wolverine does, Storm does not. Storm lacking a consistent solo, tells me Marvel does not think she will sell well, and I would assume they based this on how popular they gauge the character really is without the rest of the team to carry them. People might like seeing her on a team or the occasional crossover/visit, but it does not mean they like her enough to buy a solo, and that is one of the major components that separates the A's from everyone else.

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

Having an ongoing solo doesn't mean you're A-list.

being just part of a team doesn't mean you can't be an A-list.

Completely useless statements as I have not claimed otherwise...

Many characters with Solo's are not A-listers, and most A-listers (to be honest, all the ones I can think of, for at least DC) are part of teams along with having solos.

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

2. I don't disagree with this: "...it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister..."

3. Still, quantity means something and seeing Storm on top on on most number of appearances among female comic characters is always a good thing

#1754 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@Vance Astro said:

@jhazzroucher said:

well not really but considering that sh even doesn't have her own solo, it's a fact that she beat them in number of appearances

I think not having a solo is WHY she beat them in number of appearances. She HAS TO appear in other characters books or not at all.

... you summed my entire line of thought in one sentence ... :(

not true because only Storm was the only one to come out on top. the other x-men ladies didn't.

#1755 Posted by Vance Astro (91226 posts) - - Show Bio
@jhazzroucher said:

not true because only Storm was the only one to come out on top. the other x-men ladies didn't.

Seriously Jhazz, how does what you just said refute what I just said? How do you start a sentence with "not true" and than state something that has NOTHING to do with my point. If what you're trying to say is Storm still has more appearances than other females on the team although they suffer from the same issue of HAVING TO appear in other characters comics..how does that refute the idea that there are characters who are A-list with their own books who have less appearances than Storm?
Moderator
#1756 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

#1757 Posted by Vance Astro (91226 posts) - - Show Bio
@jhazzroucher said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

No, that's what MARVEL is telling you.
Moderator
#1758 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@jhazzroucher said:

not true because only Storm was the only one to come out on top. the other x-men ladies didn't.

Seriously Jhazz, how does what you just said refute what I just said? How do you start a sentence with "not true" and than state something that has NOTHING to do with my point. If what you're trying to say is Storm still has more appearances than other females on the team although they suffer from the same issue of HAVING TO appear in other characters comics..how does that refute the idea that there are characters who are A-list with their own books who have less appearances than Storm?

there's a difference because those other x-men ladies didn't surpass WW's numbers. Only Storm.

#1759 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@jhazzroucher said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

No, that's what MARVEL is telling you.

i don't think that is Marvel's reason

#1760 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@Vance Astro said:

@jhazzroucher said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

No, that's what MARVEL is telling you.

i don't think that is Marvel's reason

Potential sales will always be what controls Marvel's actions. They're a business after all.

#1761 Posted by Vance Astro (91226 posts) - - Show Bio
@jhazzroucher said:

there's a difference because those other x-men ladies didn't surpass WW's numbers. Only Storm.

There isn't a difference. Storm is more important than them but still not A-lis, you making a pointless comparison for the sake of doing it. Storm has more appearances than Wonder Woman but Wonder Woman is still by far more important to DC than Storm is to Marvel.

@jhazzroucher said:

i don't think that is Marvel's reason

Every character that has gotten an ongoing over Storm or Cyclops, has gotten it because Marvel thinks they have a better chance of selling. How you can object to that is behind me.
Moderator
#1762 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@jhazzroucher said:

there's a difference because those other x-men ladies didn't surpass WW's numbers. Only Storm.

There isn't a difference. Storm is more important than them but still not A-lis, you making a pointless comparison for the sake of doing it. Storm has more appearances than Wonder Woman but Wonder Woman is still by far more important to DC than Storm is to Marvel.

@jhazzroucher said:

i don't think that is Marvel's reason

Every character that has gotten an ongoing over Storm or Cyclops, has gotten it because Marvel thinks they have a better chance of selling. How you can object to that is behind me.

and how did Storm become important? because her character is very important and she's popular too.

#1763 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:



@jhazzroucher said:

i don't think that is Marvel's reason

Every character that has gotten an ongoing over Storm or Cyclops, has gotten it because Marvel thinks they have a better chance of selling. How you can object to that is behind me.

i don't think that is Marvel's reason

#1764 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@Vance Astro said:


@jhazzroucher said:

i don't think that is Marvel's reason

Every character that has gotten an ongoing over Storm or Cyclops, has gotten it because Marvel thinks they have a better chance of selling. How you can object to that is behind me.

i don't think that is Marvel's reason

What other reason would they have?

#1765 Posted by Ren_ (1678 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel is a business. They LIKE making money. If they thought that a Storm ongoing would be profitable for them, there is literally NO reason why they would not do it.

#1766 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@Vance Astro said:


@jhazzroucher said:

i don't think that is Marvel's reason

Every character that has gotten an ongoing over Storm or Cyclops, has gotten it because Marvel thinks they have a better chance of selling. How you can object to that is behind me.

i don't think that is Marvel's reason

What other reason would they have?

they want to keep Cyclops and Storm with the x-men.

#1767 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ren_ said:

Marvel is a business. They LIKE making money. If they thought that a Storm ongoing would be profitable for them, there is literally NO reason why they would not do it.

hello, the Morbius sales will tell if it will even surpass Storm's mini series sales.

#1768 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher: Wolverine has had and still has his own solo comics while still being on the X-Men so that's clearly not the case.

#1769 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite said:

@jhazzroucher: Wolverine has had and still has his own solo comics while still being on the X-Men so that's clearly not the case.

oh so you're telling me Cyclops and Storm ongoing solo wouldn't really sell well compared to the other comic characters they have experimented?

#1770 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

eventually, Storm will have her own ongoing

#1771 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@Decoy Elite said:

@jhazzroucher: Wolverine has had and still has his own solo comics while still being on the X-Men so that's clearly not the case.

oh so you're telling me Cyclops and Storm ongoing solo wouldn't really sell well compared to the other comic characters they have experimented?

I'm saying that's what Marvel thinks.

#1772 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@Decoy Elite said:

@jhazzroucher: Wolverine has had and still has his own solo comics while still being on the X-Men so that's clearly not the case.

oh so you're telling me Cyclops and Storm ongoing solo wouldn't really sell well compared to the other comic characters they have experimented?

I'm saying that's what Marvel thinks.

well i don't think that's what marvel thinks.

#1773 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

it's just illogical that somebody who is clearly less popular is getting a solo while Storm and Cyclops couldn't because their solos won't make money.

#1774 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher: Okay, I never said that you did.

#1775 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite said:

@jhazzroucher: Okay, I never said that you did.

you did.

#1776 Edited by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@Decoy Elite said:

@jhazzroucher: Okay, I never said that you did.

you did.

When?

EDIT: Nevermind, I see that I misread your post.

#1777 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@Decoy Elite said:

@jhazzroucher: Okay, I never said that you did.

you did.

When?

EDIT: Nevermind, I see that I misread your post.

in denial. lol : )

#1778 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@Decoy Elite said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@Decoy Elite said:

@jhazzroucher: Wolverine has had and still has his own solo comics while still being on the X-Men so that's clearly not the case.

oh so you're telling me Cyclops and Storm ongoing solo wouldn't really sell well compared to the other comic characters they have experimented?

I'm saying that's what Marvel thinks.

well i don't think that's what marvel thinks.

Well you're wrong. Marvel only has one real motive, money. All they care about is making their cash simple as that, so if they thought Storm or Cyclops having a solo would be profitable they would do it. Simple as that.

#1779 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@Decoy Elite said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@Decoy Elite said:

@jhazzroucher: Wolverine has had and still has his own solo comics while still being on the X-Men so that's clearly not the case.

oh so you're telling me Cyclops and Storm ongoing solo wouldn't really sell well compared to the other comic characters they have experimented?

I'm saying that's what Marvel thinks.

well i don't think that's what marvel thinks.

Well you're wrong. Marvel only has one real motive, money. All they care about is making their cash simple as that, so if they thought Storm or Cyclops having a solo would be profitable they would do it. Simple as that.

only????? are you sure?

#1780 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite: it's not what you think it is

#1781 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher: Marvel is a company. Companies exist to make money at the end of the day. It's their motive for everything.

#1782 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite said:

@jhazzroucher: Marvel is a company. Companies exist to make money at the end of the day. It's their motive for everything.

but it's not the "only" reason. it's like saying they'll do everything they can, either good or bad, just to earn money.

so it's not "only"

#1783 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

I missed some of your points

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

@jhazzroucher said:


2. I don't disagree with this: "...it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister..."

crap, just realized you said you don't disagree .... My bad ... lol!

If you boost sales by 1 subscriber, you've technically boasted sales, do you think that someone who just increases sales by 1 subscriber should be considered an A-lister? There are people who sell 30000 monthly usa comics via solo's who I still don't think would be considered a -listers, x-men sells in the 160000 range, can you honestly guarantee that over 30000 of those are specifically because of Storm? I'ld also like to entertain your thoughts on how many people buy Wolverine and the X-Men for Storm.

06. Savage Wolverine #1 - 102,530
10. Uncanny X-Force #1 - 86,187
13. All New X-Men #6 - 80,195 … 15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007
15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007 … 11. All New X-Men #4 - 80,665
28. Deadpool #4 - 57,061 … 25. Deadpool #3 - 60,215
30. Cable and X-Force #3 - 51,761 … 29. Cable and X-Force #2 - 57,719
37. A Plus X #4 - 48,091 … 32. A Plus X #3 - 56,700
40. Wolverine and the X-Men #24 - 44,716 … 44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963
44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963 ... 45. Wolverine and the X-Men #22 - 45,658
56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673 … 48. X-Men: Legacy #3 -45,407
58. Deadpool: Killustrated #1 - 36,771
62. X-Men: Legacy #5 - 34,823 … 56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673
74. X-MEN#40 - 28,515 … 72. X-MEN #39 - 29,326
81. Astonishing X-Men #58 - 25,159 … 82. Astonishing X-Men #57 - 26,263
84. Wolverine Max #3 - 24,058 … 82. Wolverine Max #2 - 27,217
87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #21 - 23,479 … 87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #20 - 24,789
93. X-Factor #250 - 22,521 … 95. X-Factor #249 - 21,211
94. Gambit #8 - 22,396 … 89. Gambit #7 - 23,978
98. First X-Men #5 - 20,111 … 102. First X-Men #4 - 21,930
107. Age of Apocalypse #11 - 18,555 … 105. Age of Apocalypse #10 - 19,337
129. X-Treme X-Men #9 - 15,529 … 122. X-Treme X-Men #8 - 16,536

http://www.forumforgeeks.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=5167

jhazzroucher said:

3. Still, quantity means something and seeing Storm on top on on most number of appearances among female comic characters is always a good thing

Thats all good, point is that don't make you an A-lister...

#1784 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@Decoy Elite said:

@jhazzroucher: Marvel is a company. Companies exist to make money at the end of the day. It's their motive for everything.

but it's not the "only" reason. it's like saying they'll do everything they can, either good or bad, just to earn money.

so it's not "only"

I'm confused by this point, are you implying they don't do bad things for moeny, meaning Storm not having a Solo is for noble reasons and not because Marvel thinks she can't carry her own title? Do tell!

And I really have to say, you really ask this question in an industry where; burying upstarts with lawsuits, screwing over creators, and ripping off mature competition, as much as possible, is so common no-one even bats an eye... BTW that is technically every industry, so evil they all are ....

#1785 Posted by Vance Astro (91226 posts) - - Show Bio

There is no logical argument against Marvel not making an Cyclops or Storm ongoing because they don't think it will sell. If it has anything to do with the X-Men, it's not because Marvel wants to keep them with that team, it's because without the team there's NOTHING to write about them.

Moderator
#1786 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

There is no logical argument against Marvel not making an Cyclops or Storm ongoing because they don't think it will sell. If it has anything to do with the X-Men, it's not because Marvel wants to keep them with that team, it's because without the team there's NOTHING to write about them.

so are you telling me that a Morbius solo would sell better than a Storm solo or Cyclops solo?

#1787 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

I missed some of your points

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

@jhazzroucher said:


2. I don't disagree with this: "...it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister..."

crap, just realized you said you don't disagree .... My bad ... lol!

If you boost sales by 1 subscriber, you've technically boasted sales, do you think that someone who just increases sales by 1 subscriber should be considered an A-lister? There are people who sell 30000 monthly usa comics via solo's who I still don't think would be considered a -listers, x-men sells in the 160000 range, can you honestly guarantee that over 30000 of those are specifically because of Storm? I'ld also like to entertain your thoughts on how many people buy Wolverine and the X-Men for Storm.

06. Savage Wolverine #1 - 102,530
10. Uncanny X-Force #1 - 86,187
13. All New X-Men #6 - 80,195 … 15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007
15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007 … 11. All New X-Men #4 - 80,665
28. Deadpool #4 - 57,061 … 25. Deadpool #3 - 60,215
30. Cable and X-Force #3 - 51,761 … 29. Cable and X-Force #2 - 57,719
37. A Plus X #4 - 48,091 … 32. A Plus X #3 - 56,700
40. Wolverine and the X-Men #24 - 44,716 … 44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963
44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963 ... 45. Wolverine and the X-Men #22 - 45,658
56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673 … 48. X-Men: Legacy #3 -45,407
58. Deadpool: Killustrated #1 - 36,771
62. X-Men: Legacy #5 - 34,823 … 56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673
74. X-MEN#40 - 28,515 … 72. X-MEN #39 - 29,326
81. Astonishing X-Men #58 - 25,159 … 82. Astonishing X-Men #57 - 26,263
84. Wolverine Max #3 - 24,058 … 82. Wolverine Max #2 - 27,217
87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #21 - 23,479 … 87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #20 - 24,789
93. X-Factor #250 - 22,521 … 95. X-Factor #249 - 21,211
94. Gambit #8 - 22,396 … 89. Gambit #7 - 23,978
98. First X-Men #5 - 20,111 … 102. First X-Men #4 - 21,930
107. Age of Apocalypse #11 - 18,555 … 105. Age of Apocalypse #10 - 19,337
129. X-Treme X-Men #9 - 15,529 … 122. X-Treme X-Men #8 - 16,536

http://www.forumforgeeks.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=5167

jhazzroucher said:

3. Still, quantity means something and seeing Storm on top on on most number of appearances among female comic characters is always a good thing

Thats all good, point is that don't make you an A-lister...

1. I don't think so. they even gave Gambit, Mystique, Emma Frost, etc , who were members of a team/

2. and i really meant "i agree".

3. Indeed, but Storm and Cyclops are an exception.

#1788 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

I missed some of your points

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

@jhazzroucher said:


2. I don't disagree with this: "...it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister..."

crap, just realized you said you don't disagree .... My bad ... lol!

If you boost sales by 1 subscriber, you've technically boasted sales, do you think that someone who just increases sales by 1 subscriber should be considered an A-lister? There are people who sell 30000 monthly usa comics via solo's who I still don't think would be considered a -listers, x-men sells in the 160000 range, can you honestly guarantee that over 30000 of those are specifically because of Storm? I'ld also like to entertain your thoughts on how many people buy Wolverine and the X-Men for Storm.

06. Savage Wolverine #1 - 102,530
10. Uncanny X-Force #1 - 86,187
13. All New X-Men #6 - 80,195 … 15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007
15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007 … 11. All New X-Men #4 - 80,665
28. Deadpool #4 - 57,061 … 25. Deadpool #3 - 60,215
30. Cable and X-Force #3 - 51,761 … 29. Cable and X-Force #2 - 57,719
37. A Plus X #4 - 48,091 … 32. A Plus X #3 - 56,700
40. Wolverine and the X-Men #24 - 44,716 … 44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963
44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963 ... 45. Wolverine and the X-Men #22 - 45,658
56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673 … 48. X-Men: Legacy #3 -45,407
58. Deadpool: Killustrated #1 - 36,771
62. X-Men: Legacy #5 - 34,823 … 56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673
74. X-MEN#40 - 28,515 … 72. X-MEN #39 - 29,326
81. Astonishing X-Men #58 - 25,159 … 82. Astonishing X-Men #57 - 26,263
84. Wolverine Max #3 - 24,058 … 82. Wolverine Max #2 - 27,217
87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #21 - 23,479 … 87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #20 - 24,789
93. X-Factor #250 - 22,521 … 95. X-Factor #249 - 21,211
94. Gambit #8 - 22,396 … 89. Gambit #7 - 23,978
98. First X-Men #5 - 20,111 … 102. First X-Men #4 - 21,930
107. Age of Apocalypse #11 - 18,555 … 105. Age of Apocalypse #10 - 19,337
129. X-Treme X-Men #9 - 15,529 … 122. X-Treme X-Men #8 - 16,536

http://www.forumforgeeks.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=5167

jhazzroucher said:

3. Still, quantity means something and seeing Storm on top on on most number of appearances among female comic characters is always a good thing

Thats all good, point is that don't make you an A-lister...

1. I don't think so. they even gave Gambit, Mystique, Emma Frost, etc , who were members of a team/

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

2. and i really meant "i agree".

I pointed this out in edited post which you responded to!

3. Indeed, but Storm and Cyclops are an exception.

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

#1789 Posted by Vance Astro (91226 posts) - - Show Bio
@jhazzroucher said:

so are you telling me that a Morbius solo would sell better than a Storm solo or Cyclops solo?

No, i'm telling you for like the the 5th time. That's what MARVEL thinks.  That's why Mobius has a book and they never have.
Moderator
#1790 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@jhazzroucher said:

so are you telling me that a Morbius solo would sell better than a Storm solo or Cyclops solo?

No, i'm telling you for like the the 5th time. That's what MARVEL thinks. That's why Mobius has a book and they never have.

it's what you think. you're thinking that that is Marvel's reason which isn't proven , therefore it's your thinking.

#1791 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

I missed some of your points

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

@jhazzroucher said:


2. I don't disagree with this: "...it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister..."

crap, just realized you said you don't disagree .... My bad ... lol!

If you boost sales by 1 subscriber, you've technically boasted sales, do you think that someone who just increases sales by 1 subscriber should be considered an A-lister? There are people who sell 30000 monthly usa comics via solo's who I still don't think would be considered a -listers, x-men sells in the 160000 range, can you honestly guarantee that over 30000 of those are specifically because of Storm? I'ld also like to entertain your thoughts on how many people buy Wolverine and the X-Men for Storm.

06. Savage Wolverine #1 - 102,530
10. Uncanny X-Force #1 - 86,187
13. All New X-Men #6 - 80,195 … 15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007
15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007 … 11. All New X-Men #4 - 80,665
28. Deadpool #4 - 57,061 … 25. Deadpool #3 - 60,215
30. Cable and X-Force #3 - 51,761 … 29. Cable and X-Force #2 - 57,719
37. A Plus X #4 - 48,091 … 32. A Plus X #3 - 56,700
40. Wolverine and the X-Men #24 - 44,716 … 44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963
44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963 ... 45. Wolverine and the X-Men #22 - 45,658
56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673 … 48. X-Men: Legacy #3 -45,407
58. Deadpool: Killustrated #1 - 36,771
62. X-Men: Legacy #5 - 34,823 … 56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673
74. X-MEN#40 - 28,515 … 72. X-MEN #39 - 29,326
81. Astonishing X-Men #58 - 25,159 … 82. Astonishing X-Men #57 - 26,263
84. Wolverine Max #3 - 24,058 … 82. Wolverine Max #2 - 27,217
87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #21 - 23,479 … 87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #20 - 24,789
93. X-Factor #250 - 22,521 … 95. X-Factor #249 - 21,211
94. Gambit #8 - 22,396 … 89. Gambit #7 - 23,978
98. First X-Men #5 - 20,111 … 102. First X-Men #4 - 21,930
107. Age of Apocalypse #11 - 18,555 … 105. Age of Apocalypse #10 - 19,337
129. X-Treme X-Men #9 - 15,529 … 122. X-Treme X-Men #8 - 16,536

http://www.forumforgeeks.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=5167

jhazzroucher said:

3. Still, quantity means something and seeing Storm on top on on most number of appearances among female comic characters is always a good thing

Thats all good, point is that don't make you an A-lister...

1. I don't think so. they even gave Gambit, Mystique, Emma Frost, etc , who were members of a team/

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

2. and i really meant "i agree".

I pointed this out in edited post which you responded to!

3. Indeed, but Storm and Cyclops are an exception.

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

1. and so you're telling me that marvel thinsk the others that i have mentioned would sell better than Storm that's why they didn't give Storm an ongoing|?

2. ok.

3. appearances and exposure.

#1792 Posted by Vance Astro (91226 posts) - - Show Bio
@jhazzroucher said:

it's what you think. you're thinking that that is Marvel's reason which isn't proven , therefore it's your thinking.

Marvel doesn't have to come out and say this is why they did it. It's common sense. Marvel is a business.
Moderator
#1793 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

I missed some of your points

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

@jhazzroucher said:


2. I don't disagree with this: "...it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister..."

crap, just realized you said you don't disagree .... My bad ... lol!

If you boost sales by 1 subscriber, you've technically boasted sales, do you think that someone who just increases sales by 1 subscriber should be considered an A-lister? There are people who sell 30000 monthly usa comics via solo's who I still don't think would be considered a -listers, x-men sells in the 160000 range, can you honestly guarantee that over 30000 of those are specifically because of Storm? I'ld also like to entertain your thoughts on how many people buy Wolverine and the X-Men for Storm.

06. Savage Wolverine #1 - 102,530
10. Uncanny X-Force #1 - 86,187
13. All New X-Men #6 - 80,195 … 15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007
15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007 … 11. All New X-Men #4 - 80,665
28. Deadpool #4 - 57,061 … 25. Deadpool #3 - 60,215
30. Cable and X-Force #3 - 51,761 … 29. Cable and X-Force #2 - 57,719
37. A Plus X #4 - 48,091 … 32. A Plus X #3 - 56,700
40. Wolverine and the X-Men #24 - 44,716 … 44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963
44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963 ... 45. Wolverine and the X-Men #22 - 45,658
56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673 … 48. X-Men: Legacy #3 -45,407
58. Deadpool: Killustrated #1 - 36,771
62. X-Men: Legacy #5 - 34,823 … 56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673
74. X-MEN#40 - 28,515 … 72. X-MEN #39 - 29,326
81. Astonishing X-Men #58 - 25,159 … 82. Astonishing X-Men #57 - 26,263
84. Wolverine Max #3 - 24,058 … 82. Wolverine Max #2 - 27,217
87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #21 - 23,479 … 87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #20 - 24,789
93. X-Factor #250 - 22,521 … 95. X-Factor #249 - 21,211
94. Gambit #8 - 22,396 … 89. Gambit #7 - 23,978
98. First X-Men #5 - 20,111 … 102. First X-Men #4 - 21,930
107. Age of Apocalypse #11 - 18,555 … 105. Age of Apocalypse #10 - 19,337
129. X-Treme X-Men #9 - 15,529 … 122. X-Treme X-Men #8 - 16,536

http://www.forumforgeeks.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=5167

jhazzroucher said:

3. Still, quantity means something and seeing Storm on top on on most number of appearances among female comic characters is always a good thing

Thats all good, point is that don't make you an A-lister...

1. I don't think so. they even gave Gambit, Mystique, Emma Frost, etc , who were members of a team/

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

2. and i really meant "i agree".

I pointed this out in edited post which you responded to!

3. Indeed, but Storm and Cyclops are an exception.

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

1. and so you're telling me that marvel thinsk the others that i have mentioned would sell better than Storm that's why they didn't give Storm an ongoing|?

Unfortunately, the following response still applies to the answer you gave to it.

I have already said:

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

In case you have not noticed, you judge a-listers based on actual performance. Storm does not have a solo, guessing how well she would sell is completely irrelevant to the topic because she does not sell a solo because she has none.

3. appearances and exposure.

And I'm 100% sure this pointer of yours was addressed, oh wait it was ...

I have already said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

@jhazzroucher said:

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

Do you know how they judge a-list actors? It is not by the amount of movies they show up in, it is by their ability to command leading roles and bring in viewers (bankable value), indeed, there are plenty non-a-listers you see popping up everywhere who don't take leading roles but are still noticeable.

#1794 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@jhazzroucher said:

it's what you think. you're thinking that that is Marvel's reason which isn't proven , therefore it's your thinking.

Marvel doesn't have to come out and say this is why they did it. It's common sense. Marvel is a business.

but it's not only about earning money, but making good quality comics as well

#1795 Posted by Vance Astro (91226 posts) - - Show Bio
@jhazzroucher said:

but it's not only about earning money, but making good quality comics as well

So, then you're admitting Marvel couldn't get a quality comic out of Storm?
Moderator
#1796 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

I missed some of your points

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

@jhazzroucher said:


2. I don't disagree with this: "...it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister..."

crap, just realized you said you don't disagree .... My bad ... lol!

If you boost sales by 1 subscriber, you've technically boasted sales, do you think that someone who just increases sales by 1 subscriber should be considered an A-lister? There are people who sell 30000 monthly usa comics via solo's who I still don't think would be considered a -listers, x-men sells in the 160000 range, can you honestly guarantee that over 30000 of those are specifically because of Storm? I'ld also like to entertain your thoughts on how many people buy Wolverine and the X-Men for Storm.

06. Savage Wolverine #1 - 102,530
10. Uncanny X-Force #1 - 86,187
13. All New X-Men #6 - 80,195 … 15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007
15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007 … 11. All New X-Men #4 - 80,665
28. Deadpool #4 - 57,061 … 25. Deadpool #3 - 60,215
30. Cable and X-Force #3 - 51,761 … 29. Cable and X-Force #2 - 57,719
37. A Plus X #4 - 48,091 … 32. A Plus X #3 - 56,700
40. Wolverine and the X-Men #24 - 44,716 … 44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963
44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963 ... 45. Wolverine and the X-Men #22 - 45,658
56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673 … 48. X-Men: Legacy #3 -45,407
58. Deadpool: Killustrated #1 - 36,771
62. X-Men: Legacy #5 - 34,823 … 56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673
74. X-MEN#40 - 28,515 … 72. X-MEN #39 - 29,326
81. Astonishing X-Men #58 - 25,159 … 82. Astonishing X-Men #57 - 26,263
84. Wolverine Max #3 - 24,058 … 82. Wolverine Max #2 - 27,217
87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #21 - 23,479 … 87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #20 - 24,789
93. X-Factor #250 - 22,521 … 95. X-Factor #249 - 21,211
94. Gambit #8 - 22,396 … 89. Gambit #7 - 23,978
98. First X-Men #5 - 20,111 … 102. First X-Men #4 - 21,930
107. Age of Apocalypse #11 - 18,555 … 105. Age of Apocalypse #10 - 19,337
129. X-Treme X-Men #9 - 15,529 … 122. X-Treme X-Men #8 - 16,536

http://www.forumforgeeks.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=5167

jhazzroucher said:

3. Still, quantity means something and seeing Storm on top on on most number of appearances among female comic characters is always a good thing

Thats all good, point is that don't make you an A-lister...

1. I don't think so. they even gave Gambit, Mystique, Emma Frost, etc , who were members of a team/

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

2. and i really meant "i agree".

I pointed this out in edited post which you responded to!

3. Indeed, but Storm and Cyclops are an exception.

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

1. and so you're telling me that marvel thinsk the others that i have mentioned would sell better than Storm that's why they didn't give Storm an ongoing|?

Unfortunately, the following response still applies to the answer you gave to it.

I have already said:

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

In case you have not noticed, you judge a-listers based on actual performance. Storm does not have a solo, guessing how well she would sell is completely irrelevant to the topic because she does not sell a solo because she has none.

3. appearances and exposure.

And I'm 100% sure this pointer of yours was addressed, oh wait it was ...

I have already said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

@jhazzroucher said:

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

Do you know how they judge a-list actors? It is not by the amount of movies they show up in, it is by their ability to command leading roles and bring in viewers (bankable value), indeed, there are plenty non-a-listers you see popping up everywhere who don't take leading roles but are still noticeable.

1. no it isn't

2. and you're not taking it into consideration.

3. it's different from comic characters cos number of appearances matters

#1797 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

I missed some of your points

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

@jhazzroucher said:


2. I don't disagree with this: "...it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister..."

crap, just realized you said you don't disagree .... My bad ... lol!

If you boost sales by 1 subscriber, you've technically boasted sales, do you think that someone who just increases sales by 1 subscriber should be considered an A-lister? There are people who sell 30000 monthly usa comics via solo's who I still don't think would be considered a -listers, x-men sells in the 160000 range, can you honestly guarantee that over 30000 of those are specifically because of Storm? I'ld also like to entertain your thoughts on how many people buy Wolverine and the X-Men for Storm.

06. Savage Wolverine #1 - 102,530
10. Uncanny X-Force #1 - 86,187
13. All New X-Men #6 - 80,195 … 15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007
15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007 … 11. All New X-Men #4 - 80,665
28. Deadpool #4 - 57,061 … 25. Deadpool #3 - 60,215
30. Cable and X-Force #3 - 51,761 … 29. Cable and X-Force #2 - 57,719
37. A Plus X #4 - 48,091 … 32. A Plus X #3 - 56,700
40. Wolverine and the X-Men #24 - 44,716 … 44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963
44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963 ... 45. Wolverine and the X-Men #22 - 45,658
56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673 … 48. X-Men: Legacy #3 -45,407
58. Deadpool: Killustrated #1 - 36,771
62. X-Men: Legacy #5 - 34,823 … 56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673
74. X-MEN#40 - 28,515 … 72. X-MEN #39 - 29,326
81. Astonishing X-Men #58 - 25,159 … 82. Astonishing X-Men #57 - 26,263
84. Wolverine Max #3 - 24,058 … 82. Wolverine Max #2 - 27,217
87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #21 - 23,479 … 87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #20 - 24,789
93. X-Factor #250 - 22,521 … 95. X-Factor #249 - 21,211
94. Gambit #8 - 22,396 … 89. Gambit #7 - 23,978
98. First X-Men #5 - 20,111 … 102. First X-Men #4 - 21,930
107. Age of Apocalypse #11 - 18,555 … 105. Age of Apocalypse #10 - 19,337
129. X-Treme X-Men #9 - 15,529 … 122. X-Treme X-Men #8 - 16,536

http://www.forumforgeeks.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=5167

jhazzroucher said:

3. Still, quantity means something and seeing Storm on top on on most number of appearances among female comic characters is always a good thing

Thats all good, point is that don't make you an A-lister...

1. I don't think so. they even gave Gambit, Mystique, Emma Frost, etc , who were members of a team/

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

2. and i really meant "i agree".

I pointed this out in edited post which you responded to!

3. Indeed, but Storm and Cyclops are an exception.

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

1. and so you're telling me that marvel thinsk the others that i have mentioned would sell better than Storm that's why they didn't give Storm an ongoing|?

Unfortunately, the following response still applies to the answer you gave to it.

I have already said:

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

In case you have not noticed, you judge a-listers based on actual performance. Storm does not have a solo, guessing how well she would sell is completely irrelevant to the topic because she does not sell a solo because she has none.

3. appearances and exposure.

And I'm 100% sure this pointer of yours was addressed, oh wait it was ...

I have already said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

@jhazzroucher said:

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

Do you know how they judge a-list actors? It is not by the amount of movies they show up in, it is by their ability to command leading roles and bring in viewers (bankable value), indeed, there are plenty non-a-listers you see popping up everywhere who don't take leading roles but are still noticeable.

1. no it isn't

2. and you're not taking it into consideration.

3. it's different from comic characters cos number of appearances matters

As I said before :

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

For instance

jhazzroucher said:

1. no it isn't

This would normally be a useful answer if you provided and explanation as to why, preferably one that has not already been shot down, it is most definitely usefully if you actually indicate what you were responding to because as I said before: "In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point". There is something called "context" and this response lacks it in spades.

jhazzroucher said:

and you're not taking it into consideration.

This might be a useful response if you actually said "what I'm not taking into consideration and how it effected my argument", also preferably with points that have not already been shot down (as you may or may not have noticed, I'm very fond of quoting responses I've made to your rehashed arguments).

jhazzroucher said:

. it's different from comic characters cos number of appearances matters

I'm assuming your talking about the a-list actor comparison on which point I'll confess your complete lack of explanation as to why they are different is so convincing...that you don't have a reason other than you want it to be so. Appearances do matter, especially in solos..wanna guess what Storm does not have?

Hint:

Want to know why I know you don't have a good reason?

Because I addressed your only attempt at making a point several times already

I have already said:

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.
#1798 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

I missed some of your points

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

@jhazzroucher said:


2. I don't disagree with this: "...it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister..."

crap, just realized you said you don't disagree .... My bad ... lol!

If you boost sales by 1 subscriber, you've technically boasted sales, do you think that someone who just increases sales by 1 subscriber should be considered an A-lister? There are people who sell 30000 monthly usa comics via solo's who I still don't think would be considered a -listers, x-men sells in the 160000 range, can you honestly guarantee that over 30000 of those are specifically because of Storm? I'ld also like to entertain your thoughts on how many people buy Wolverine and the X-Men for Storm.

06. Savage Wolverine #1 - 102,530
10. Uncanny X-Force #1 - 86,187
13. All New X-Men #6 - 80,195 … 15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007
15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007 … 11. All New X-Men #4 - 80,665
28. Deadpool #4 - 57,061 … 25. Deadpool #3 - 60,215
30. Cable and X-Force #3 - 51,761 … 29. Cable and X-Force #2 - 57,719
37. A Plus X #4 - 48,091 … 32. A Plus X #3 - 56,700
40. Wolverine and the X-Men #24 - 44,716 … 44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963
44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963 ... 45. Wolverine and the X-Men #22 - 45,658
56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673 … 48. X-Men: Legacy #3 -45,407
58. Deadpool: Killustrated #1 - 36,771
62. X-Men: Legacy #5 - 34,823 … 56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673
74. X-MEN#40 - 28,515 … 72. X-MEN #39 - 29,326
81. Astonishing X-Men #58 - 25,159 … 82. Astonishing X-Men #57 - 26,263
84. Wolverine Max #3 - 24,058 … 82. Wolverine Max #2 - 27,217
87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #21 - 23,479 … 87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #20 - 24,789
93. X-Factor #250 - 22,521 … 95. X-Factor #249 - 21,211
94. Gambit #8 - 22,396 … 89. Gambit #7 - 23,978
98. First X-Men #5 - 20,111 … 102. First X-Men #4 - 21,930
107. Age of Apocalypse #11 - 18,555 … 105. Age of Apocalypse #10 - 19,337
129. X-Treme X-Men #9 - 15,529 … 122. X-Treme X-Men #8 - 16,536

http://www.forumforgeeks.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=5167

jhazzroucher said:

3. Still, quantity means something and seeing Storm on top on on most number of appearances among female comic characters is always a good thing

Thats all good, point is that don't make you an A-lister...

1. I don't think so. they even gave Gambit, Mystique, Emma Frost, etc , who were members of a team/

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

2. and i really meant "i agree".

I pointed this out in edited post which you responded to!

3. Indeed, but Storm and Cyclops are an exception.

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

1. and so you're telling me that marvel thinsk the others that i have mentioned would sell better than Storm that's why they didn't give Storm an ongoing|?

Unfortunately, the following response still applies to the answer you gave to it.

I have already said:

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

In case you have not noticed, you judge a-listers based on actual performance. Storm does not have a solo, guessing how well she would sell is completely irrelevant to the topic because she does not sell a solo because she has none.

3. appearances and exposure.

And I'm 100% sure this pointer of yours was addressed, oh wait it was ...

I have already said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

@jhazzroucher said:

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

Do you know how they judge a-list actors? It is not by the amount of movies they show up in, it is by their ability to command leading roles and bring in viewers (bankable value), indeed, there are plenty non-a-listers you see popping up everywhere who don't take leading roles but are still noticeable.

1. no it isn't

2. and you're not taking it into consideration.

3. it's different from comic characters cos number of appearances matters

As I said before :

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

For instance

jhazzroucher said:

1. no it isn't

This would normally be a useful answer if you provided and explanation as to why, preferably one that has not already been shot down, it is most definitely usefully if you actually indicate what you were responding to because as I said before: "In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point". There is some called "context" and this response lacks it in spades.

jhazzroucher said:

and you're not taking it into consideration.

This might be a useful response if you actually said "what I'm not taking into consideration and how it effected my argument", also preferably with points that have not already been shot down (as you may or may not have noticed, I'm very fond of quoting responses I've made to your rehashed arguments).

jhazzroucher said:

. it's different from comic characters cos number of appearances matters

I'm assuming your talking about the a-list actor comparison on which point I'll confess your complete lack of explanation as to why they are different is so convincing...that do you don't have a reason other than you want it to be so. Appearances do matter, especially in solos..wanna guess what Storm does not have?

Hint:

Want to know why I know you don't have a good reason?

Because I addressed your only attempt at making a point several times already

I have already said:

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

1. because i already told you so so no need to explain further.

2 to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

#1799 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

I missed some of your points

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

@jhazzroucher said:


2. I don't disagree with this: "...it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister..."

crap, just realized you said you don't disagree .... My bad ... lol!

If you boost sales by 1 subscriber, you've technically boasted sales, do you think that someone who just increases sales by 1 subscriber should be considered an A-lister? There are people who sell 30000 monthly usa comics via solo's who I still don't think would be considered a -listers, x-men sells in the 160000 range, can you honestly guarantee that over 30000 of those are specifically because of Storm? I'ld also like to entertain your thoughts on how many people buy Wolverine and the X-Men for Storm.

06. Savage Wolverine #1 - 102,530
10. Uncanny X-Force #1 - 86,187
13. All New X-Men #6 - 80,195 … 15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007
15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007 … 11. All New X-Men #4 - 80,665
28. Deadpool #4 - 57,061 … 25. Deadpool #3 - 60,215
30. Cable and X-Force #3 - 51,761 … 29. Cable and X-Force #2 - 57,719
37. A Plus X #4 - 48,091 … 32. A Plus X #3 - 56,700
40. Wolverine and the X-Men #24 - 44,716 … 44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963
44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963 ... 45. Wolverine and the X-Men #22 - 45,658
56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673 … 48. X-Men: Legacy #3 -45,407
58. Deadpool: Killustrated #1 - 36,771
62. X-Men: Legacy #5 - 34,823 … 56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673
74. X-MEN#40 - 28,515 … 72. X-MEN #39 - 29,326
81. Astonishing X-Men #58 - 25,159 … 82. Astonishing X-Men #57 - 26,263
84. Wolverine Max #3 - 24,058 … 82. Wolverine Max #2 - 27,217
87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #21 - 23,479 … 87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #20 - 24,789
93. X-Factor #250 - 22,521 … 95. X-Factor #249 - 21,211
94. Gambit #8 - 22,396 … 89. Gambit #7 - 23,978
98. First X-Men #5 - 20,111 … 102. First X-Men #4 - 21,930
107. Age of Apocalypse #11 - 18,555 … 105. Age of Apocalypse #10 - 19,337
129. X-Treme X-Men #9 - 15,529 … 122. X-Treme X-Men #8 - 16,536

http://www.forumforgeeks.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=5167

jhazzroucher said:

3. Still, quantity means something and seeing Storm on top on on most number of appearances among female comic characters is always a good thing

Thats all good, point is that don't make you an A-lister...

1. I don't think so. they even gave Gambit, Mystique, Emma Frost, etc , who were members of a team/

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

2. and i really meant "i agree".

I pointed this out in edited post which you responded to!

3. Indeed, but Storm and Cyclops are an exception.

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

1. and so you're telling me that marvel thinsk the others that i have mentioned would sell better than Storm that's why they didn't give Storm an ongoing|?

Unfortunately, the following response still applies to the answer you gave to it.

I have already said:

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

In case you have not noticed, you judge a-listers based on actual performance. Storm does not have a solo, guessing how well she would sell is completely irrelevant to the topic because she does not sell a solo because she has none.

3. appearances and exposure.

And I'm 100% sure this pointer of yours was addressed, oh wait it was ...

I have already said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

@jhazzroucher said:

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

Do you know how they judge a-list actors? It is not by the amount of movies they show up in, it is by their ability to command leading roles and bring in viewers (bankable value), indeed, there are plenty non-a-listers you see popping up everywhere who don't take leading roles but are still noticeable.

1. no it isn't

2. and you're not taking it into consideration.

3. it's different from comic characters cos number of appearances matters

As I said before :

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

For instance

jhazzroucher said:

1. no it isn't

This would normally be a useful answer if you provided and explanation as to why, preferably one that has not already been shot down, it is most definitely usefully if you actually indicate what you were responding to because as I said before: "In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point". There is some called "context" and this response lacks it in spades.

jhazzroucher said:

and you're not taking it into consideration.

This might be a useful response if you actually said "what I'm not taking into consideration and how it effected my argument", also preferably with points that have not already been shot down (as you may or may not have noticed, I'm very fond of quoting responses I've made to your rehashed arguments).

jhazzroucher said:

. it's different from comic characters cos number of appearances matters

I'm assuming your talking about the a-list actor comparison on which point I'll confess your complete lack of explanation as to why they are different is so convincing...that do you don't have a reason other than you want it to be so. Appearances do matter, especially in solos..wanna guess what Storm does not have?

Hint:

Want to know why I know you don't have a good reason?

Because I addressed your only attempt at making a point several times already

I have already said:

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

1. because i already told you so so no need to explain further.

2 to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

jhazzroucher said

1. because i already told you so so no need to explain further.

Don't confuse making a comment with actually providing an explanation or an argument, you have made many statements but provided little reasoning or explanations; the fact that you can't or are unwilling to go back and clarify your own statement only exemplifies this.

jhazzroucher said

to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

This is another point you have failed to justify, Having a Solo series is important because it shows haw many people want to read your comics for you, that is one of the defining traits of an A-lister, because as I said before.

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

BTW; I am still waiting on a 'proper' explanation on why using a similar ranking for characters as we do for actors is wrong.

jhazzroucher said

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

And getting exposure does not dictate if you're an a-lister or not so this is a moot response because it is your ability to drive sales and bring in revenue that dictates this and not your ability to get carried.

I have already stated

Quantity does not equal quality, many appearances could just mean Marvel is trying to push her, rather than her pushing the team, Solo's are great for gauging how popular a comic character actually is, If Marvel actually thought she could sell, they would have a monthly out, but they don't, Wolverine does, Storm does not. Storm lacking a consistent solo, tells me Marvel does not think she will sell well, and I would assume they based this on how popular they gauge the character really is without the rest of the team to carry them. People might like seeing her on a team or the occasional crossover/visit, but it does not mean they like her enough to buy a solo, and that is one of the major components that separates the A's from everyone else.

#1800 Posted by jhazzroucher (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@drgnx said:

I missed some of your points

@drgnx said:

@jhazzroucher said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

@jhazzroucher said:


2. I don't disagree with this: "...it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister..."

crap, just realized you said you don't disagree .... My bad ... lol!

If you boost sales by 1 subscriber, you've technically boasted sales, do you think that someone who just increases sales by 1 subscriber should be considered an A-lister? There are people who sell 30000 monthly usa comics via solo's who I still don't think would be considered a -listers, x-men sells in the 160000 range, can you honestly guarantee that over 30000 of those are specifically because of Storm? I'ld also like to entertain your thoughts on how many people buy Wolverine and the X-Men for Storm.

06. Savage Wolverine #1 - 102,530
10. Uncanny X-Force #1 - 86,187
13. All New X-Men #6 - 80,195 … 15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007
15. All New X-Men #5 - 76,007 … 11. All New X-Men #4 - 80,665
28. Deadpool #4 - 57,061 … 25. Deadpool #3 - 60,215
30. Cable and X-Force #3 - 51,761 … 29. Cable and X-Force #2 - 57,719
37. A Plus X #4 - 48,091 … 32. A Plus X #3 - 56,700
40. Wolverine and the X-Men #24 - 44,716 … 44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963
44. Wolverine and the X-Men #23 - 43,963 ... 45. Wolverine and the X-Men #22 - 45,658
56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673 … 48. X-Men: Legacy #3 -45,407
58. Deadpool: Killustrated #1 - 36,771
62. X-Men: Legacy #5 - 34,823 … 56. X-Men: Legacy #4 - 37,673
74. X-MEN#40 - 28,515 … 72. X-MEN #39 - 29,326
81. Astonishing X-Men #58 - 25,159 … 82. Astonishing X-Men #57 - 26,263
84. Wolverine Max #3 - 24,058 … 82. Wolverine Max #2 - 27,217
87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #21 - 23,479 … 87. Ultimate Comics X-Men #20 - 24,789
93. X-Factor #250 - 22,521 … 95. X-Factor #249 - 21,211
94. Gambit #8 - 22,396 … 89. Gambit #7 - 23,978
98. First X-Men #5 - 20,111 … 102. First X-Men #4 - 21,930
107. Age of Apocalypse #11 - 18,555 … 105. Age of Apocalypse #10 - 19,337
129. X-Treme X-Men #9 - 15,529 … 122. X-Treme X-Men #8 - 16,536

http://www.forumforgeeks.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=5167

jhazzroucher said:

3. Still, quantity means something and seeing Storm on top on on most number of appearances among female comic characters is always a good thing

Thats all good, point is that don't make you an A-lister...

1. I don't think so. they even gave Gambit, Mystique, Emma Frost, etc , who were members of a team/

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

2. and i really meant "i agree".

I pointed this out in edited post which you responded to!

3. Indeed, but Storm and Cyclops are an exception.

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

1. and so you're telling me that marvel thinsk the others that i have mentioned would sell better than Storm that's why they didn't give Storm an ongoing|?

Unfortunately, the following response still applies to the answer you gave to it.

I have already said:

In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point. We have already discussed that giving someone a comic does not make them an a -lister: So what relevance does pointing out non-a-listers (or anyone for that matter) have gotten solos make to this discussion? It is an absolute fact that Storm can't sell solos if she does not have one, that was point my post, you can't sell what is not there to sell.

In case you have not noticed, you judge a-listers based on actual performance. Storm does not have a solo, guessing how well she would sell is completely irrelevant to the topic because she does not sell a solo because she has none.

3. appearances and exposure.

And I'm 100% sure this pointer of yours was addressed, oh wait it was ...

I have already said:

1. So are you telling me Morbius has more potential to sell well than Storm and Cyclops? I'm not only referring to Morbius but to other characters who have been given their own ongoing and not Storm.

@jhazzroucher said:

The thing about potential is it means there is room for improvement/growth, since Storm or Cyclops do not have solos, they actually have more potential than anyone who does have a solo... technically speaking.

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

Do you know how they judge a-list actors? It is not by the amount of movies they show up in, it is by their ability to command leading roles and bring in viewers (bankable value), indeed, there are plenty non-a-listers you see popping up everywhere who don't take leading roles but are still noticeable.

1. no it isn't

2. and you're not taking it into consideration.

3. it's different from comic characters cos number of appearances matters

As I said before :

Not to be rude, but you're going to have to do better than 1 line answers with no logic, reasoning, or proof, instead of repeating your unsubstantiated, unexplained, or irrelevant claims/responses you seem to be fond of posting: That is how debates normally work.

For instance

jhazzroucher said:

1. no it isn't

This would normally be a useful answer if you provided and explanation as to why, preferably one that has not already been shot down, it is most definitely usefully if you actually indicate what you were responding to because as I said before: "In no way, shape, or form does this even address my point". There is some called "context" and this response lacks it in spades.

jhazzroucher said:

and you're not taking it into consideration.

This might be a useful response if you actually said "what I'm not taking into consideration and how it effected my argument", also preferably with points that have not already been shot down (as you may or may not have noticed, I'm very fond of quoting responses I've made to your rehashed arguments).

jhazzroucher said:

. it's different from comic characters cos number of appearances matters

I'm assuming your talking about the a-list actor comparison on which point I'll confess your complete lack of explanation as to why they are different is so convincing...that do you don't have a reason other than you want it to be so. Appearances do matter, especially in solos..wanna guess what Storm does not have?

Hint:

Want to know why I know you don't have a good reason?

Because I addressed your only attempt at making a point several times already

I have already said:

But those with solos have a higher chance of selling "solos" as long as the titles are out there because you can't sell what isn't there. It is a lot less reliable to make such a statement about team members because it is a lot more difficult to discern what contribution they actually provide. It is actually different in that there is a chance that you you contributing sales rather than driving them like an A-lister should. In other words you're a factor on a team where as you're the factor in a solo.

I have already said:

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

1. because i already told you so so no need to explain further.

2 to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

jhazzroucher said

1. because i already told you so so no need to explain further.

Don't confuse making a comment with actually providing an explanation or an argument, you have made many statements but provided little reasoning or explanations; the fact that you can't or are unwilling to go back and clarify your own statement only exemplifies this.

jhazzroucher said

to be an a-list character doesn't need to have an ongoing solo

This is another point you have failed to justify, Having a Solo series is important because it shows haw many people want to read your comics for you, that is one of the defining traits of an A-lister, because as I said before. BTW; I am still waiting on a 'proper' explanation on why using a similar ranking for characters as we do for actors is wrong.

Going strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters. It is also very unlikely someone would specifically refuse to buy the book because she is in it, if they don't care for her character. Despite what I think you're overlooking, it is possible to boost sales by being on a team without being an A-lister, because you might be able to tip some scales even if you don't have enough weight to hold your own.

jhazzroucher said

3. oing strictly on exposure is very erroneous because it is very possible that people who buy her team books do it for other characters.--->But the point is, readers see her. making her recognizable everytime

And getting exposure does not dictate if you're an a-lister or not so this is a moot response because it is your ability to drive sales and bring in revenue that dictates this and not your ability to get carried.

I have already stated

Quantity does not equal quality, many appearances could just mean Marvel is trying to push her, rather than her pushing the team, Solo's are great for gauging how popular a comic character actually is, If Marvel actually thought she could sell, they would have a monthly out, but they don't, Wolverine does, Storm does not. Storm lacking a consistent solo, tells me Marvel does not think she will sell well, and I would assume they based this on how popular they gauge the character really is without the rest of the team to carry them. People might like seeing her on a team or the occasional crossover/visit, but it does not mean they like her enough to buy a solo, and that is one of the major components that separates the A's from everyone else.

1. Marvel is just choosing characters they want to give an ongoing, aside from making money.

2. a solo series is indeed important but it's not a requirement for a character to become an a-lister. Hence we have Cyclops and Storm breaking your opinion.

3. getting more exposure means getting more known and recognizable.

4. Quantity doesn't indeed equal equality but Storm and Cyclops has enough quality and if not enough, the quantity (exposure) that they got adds enough to make them an A-lister

This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

Comment and Save

Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Comic Vine users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.