Side by Side - A Picture Page for Libby and Starfire

Posted by RazzaTazz (9611 posts) - - Show Bio

OK, I myself have had enough of the Starfire controversy (at least until issue 2 of Red Hood and the Outlaws).  However, this morning I was looking through the "attractive female" head to head page and found a character named Libby.  There is not much to say about her, as I have never head of her before.  Anyway here she is with Starfire next to her.   
 

 As you can see the pictures are not really all that different.  Same out-of-the-water pose although granted Starfire  has more clothes (though only relatively) and more hair.  They are pretty similar in tone and content.  I am one of the biggest proponents of the argument that Starfire was the worst represented female character in the new 52.  I have heard and can understand the counter arguments - that she is not so much different from usual, that sex sells, that "boys will be boys".  For me the most telling thing here though is that Starfire is being written for a general audience at DC, whereas Libby is being written for an adult audience at Penthouse comics (or rather she was, she showed up only in 11 issues).  There are those who assert that the depiction of Starfire is not gratuitous or exploitative, but when she can stand side-by-side to a what equates to a porn star the argument doesnt really hold any substance.  
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#1 Posted by The Poet (8335 posts) - - Show Bio

that is disturbingly similar...

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#2 Posted by RazzaTazz (9611 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Poet: Thats what I thought
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#3 Posted by tim2081 (519 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that's a very popular pose for women coming out of water. I believe I've seen similar pictures of real models.

Second, what's wrong with a porn star being a superhero. Stripperella was a stripper and superhero. You can argue that type of character doesn't belong in this book. But people are calling that sexism, which it isn't.

#4 Posted by RazzaTazz (9611 posts) - - Show Bio
@tim2081: I think that is kind of dissociative reasoning, your two points dont really follow.  I can agree that scantily clad women can be heroes (though I prefer more clothed heroines) but scantily clad heroines that do porn like poses is a bit much for a comic isnt it?
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#5 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio

Libby was awesome, that is all.

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#6 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz
It fits her persona in Red Hood and the Outlaws. Not really out of place for a whorish character to act...well whorish.
#7 Posted by Aiden Cross (15562 posts) - - Show Bio

@tim2081 said:

I think that's a very popular pose for women coming out of water. I believe I've seen similar pictures of real models.

This is true, just type in 'water hair' in google image search and you'll see dozens of these kinds of pictures.

#8 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio

@Aiden Cross said:

@tim2081 said:

I think that's a very popular pose for women coming out of water. I believe I've seen similar pictures of real models.

This is true, just type in 'water hair' in google image search and you'll see dozens of these kinds of pictures.

also, uncensored breasts

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#9 Posted by Aiden Cross (15562 posts) - - Show Bio

@aztek_the_lost: Like you mind :p

#10 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio
 Water Hair Flip. Not just for the ladies.
#11 Posted by thehummingbird (3378 posts) - - Show Bio

@tim2081 said:

I think that's a very popular pose for women coming out of water. I believe I've seen similar pictures of real models.

Second, what's wrong with a porn star being a superhero. Stripperella was a stripper and superhero. You can argue that type of character doesn't belong in this book. But people are calling that sexism, which it isn't.

Personally I think porn stars and strippers and such should not be demeaned, it is a line of work which is available and while still judged by some, it can generally be pretty widely accepted. The issue here however, is not which the fact starfire is displaying characteristics of either of these two career options or something along this line of work, but in general most of starfire's personality and character base has been traded in for the character we have present. Starfire no longer has as strong of a personality and nor is she being portrayed as a strong woman like Catwoman is in the new DCU even is she is sleeping with Batman. Starfire has been placed in the new DCU to be about the intellectual level of Karen from meangirls who checks the weather with her boobs. The only purpose starfire is serving as of this moment (and by this I mean her personality and true and unique character traits that we all loved are not being expressed) is as a blowup doll for all of the male characters to sleep with. This is not wrong, but I would be much more okay with this sort of portryal, if I felt like the writers were trying to expand her character and create some kind of plot or character development. I hope this makes some sense.

#12 Posted by tim2081 (519 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz said:

@tim2081: I think that is kind of dissociative reasoning, your two points dont really follow. I can agree that scantily clad women can be heroes (though I prefer more clothed heroines) but scantily clad heroines that do porn like poses is a bit much for a comic isnt it?

I was making a point about Starfire's personality, saying she essentially behaved like a porn star. And if you didn't like her behavior it's a matter of preference, and not sexism. Since it's a comic book, the posing isn't over-the-top, because superheroes are drawn to pose all the time; it's part of the appeal of the comic. The poses are supposed to tell you something about the character; Spider-Man's poses make him look agile, quick, and playful, while Namor's poses make him look strong and regal. That Starfire pose fits the personality she had in the comic.

#13 Posted by RazzaTazz (9611 posts) - - Show Bio
@tim2081: Maybe so, but I think what i am trying to get at here is that they went for the easy guaranteed pose - a little creativity wouldnt hurt.   Kind of like when you read one comic book and it is just like another, you kind of wish the creators werent so formulaic ... well this is formulaic.   Plus comics are supposed to mirror the real world.  No woman would intentionally do that in the real world
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#14 Posted by tim2081 (519 posts) - - Show Bio

@thehummingbird said:

@tim2081 said:

I think that's a very popular pose for women coming out of water. I believe I've seen similar pictures of real models.

Second, what's wrong with a porn star being a superhero. Stripperella was a stripper and superhero. You can argue that type of character doesn't belong in this book. But people are calling that sexism, which it isn't.

Personally I think porn stars and strippers and such should not be demeaned, it is a line of work which is available and while still judged by some, it can generally be pretty widely accepted. The issue here however, is not which the fact starfire is displaying characteristics of either of these two career options or something along this line of work, but in general most of starfire's personality and character base has been traded in for the character we have present. Starfire no longer has as strong of a personality and nor is she being portrayed as a strong woman like Catwoman is in the new DCU even is she is sleeping with Batman. Starfire has been placed in the new DCU to be about the intellectual level of Karen from meangirls who checks the weather with her boobs. The only purpose starfire is serving as of this moment (and by this I mean her personality and true and unique character traits that we all loved are not being expressed) is as a blowup doll for all of the male characters to sleep with. This is not wrong, but I would be much more okay with this sort of portryal, if I felt like the writers were trying to expand her character and create some kind of plot or character development. I hope this makes some sense.

The character being changed to something you don't like is a legitimate complaint, but it happens all the time. It's the nature of the reboot, some characters changed a lot, and others not so much. This isn't a book about superheroes, it's about Outlaws, so the necessary changes will be made.

When you look at the comics as a whole, Starfire was the most powerful character; Jason and Roy wouldn't have escaped without her. And it was also Starfire who asked Roy to have sex. So she can't be compared to a "blowup doll". For the people who have never heard of Starfire, she comes off as being a powerful alien who doesn't have human emotions, but likes to have sex; and that seems like a good setup for expansion in later issues.

#15 Posted by tim2081 (519 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz: I agree that it wasn't very creative, but I don't think comics are supposed to reflect the real world to that degree. Daredevil poses every time he jumps off a building, which I think is completely ridiculous; I would be significantly more concerned about my next move. Wolverine is another one who sometimes has awkward poses for no good reason.

#16 Posted by SC (12989 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting comparison and Blog Razz. 

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#17 Posted by azza04 (1503 posts) - - Show Bio

I still can't get over how stupid Starfires costume is lmao DC should get their heroes to wear costumes like the X-Men do in the Age of X story.

How cool do Rogue and Gambits costumes look? plus they actually look like they could fight in them.
#18 Posted by B'Town (2336 posts) - - Show Bio

@tim2081 said:

@thehummingbird said:

@tim2081 said:

I think that's a very popular pose for women coming out of water. I believe I've seen similar pictures of real models.

Second, what's wrong with a porn star being a superhero. Stripperella was a stripper and superhero. You can argue that type of character doesn't belong in this book. But people are calling that sexism, which it isn't.

Personally I think porn stars and strippers and such should not be demeaned, it is a line of work which is available and while still judged by some, it can generally be pretty widely accepted. The issue here however, is not which the fact starfire is displaying characteristics of either of these two career options or something along this line of work, but in general most of starfire's personality and character base has been traded in for the character we have present. Starfire no longer has as strong of a personality and nor is she being portrayed as a strong woman like Catwoman is in the new DCU even is she is sleeping with Batman. Starfire has been placed in the new DCU to be about the intellectual level of Karen from meangirls who checks the weather with her boobs. The only purpose starfire is serving as of this moment (and by this I mean her personality and true and unique character traits that we all loved are not being expressed) is as a blowup doll for all of the male characters to sleep with. This is not wrong, but I would be much more okay with this sort of portryal, if I felt like the writers were trying to expand her character and create some kind of plot or character development. I hope this makes some sense.

The character being changed to something you don't like is a legitimate complaint, but it happens all the time. It's the nature of the reboot, some characters changed a lot, and others not so much. This isn't a book about superheroes, it's about Outlaws, so the necessary changes will be made.

When you look at the comics as a whole, Starfire was the most powerful character; Jason and Roy wouldn't have escaped without her. And it was also Starfire who asked Roy to have sex. So she can't be compared to a "blowup doll". For the people who have never heard of Starfire, she comes off as being a powerful alien who doesn't have human emotions, but likes to have sex; and that seems like a good setup for expansion in later issues.

Starfire is the most powerful, but not in character, and character as well as strength and abilities, is what many of us are referring to when we say we want a powerful sexy heroine or villain.

Whether or not Starfire was the one who asked to have sex is irrelevant to the comparison of her being written as a blow up doll. I am all for a woman asking for what she wants whether that be sex or anything else. She is compared to a blow up doll because she has no personality. Her primary function in this book was for fanboy/girl titillation nothing else. Absolute ZERO character. My guess is the writers will expand on her character eventually. And I took this into consideration before I cancelled my subscription. However I decided, that I could not support this book because of the way they have already initially used and exploited her.

Razza Tazz your comparison is a little startling. I was surprised when I saw it. I suppose I shouldn't have been.

#19 Posted by RazzaTazz (9611 posts) - - Show Bio
@B'Town: Well I saw the Libby character yesterday and the comparison was automatic
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#20 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio
@azza04: Or...naked.
#21 Posted by tim2081 (519 posts) - - Show Bio

@B'Town: I think it's an exaggeration to say she was only there for fanboy/girl titillation, but we can't argue about it because it's a subjective opinion. I just have a different interpretation of the story.

Also, here's a picture I found by doing a google search for "water hair flip". It looks pretty innocent to me, so I wouldn't make a huge deal about the pose.

#22 Posted by B'Town (2336 posts) - - Show Bio

@tim2081: The rainbow trail, reminds me of a young Karolina.

#23 Posted by Cervantes (634 posts) - - Show Bio

@thehummingbird said:

Starfire has been placed in the new DCU to be about the intellectual level of Karen from meangirls who checks the weather with her boobs. The only purpose starfire is serving as of this moment (and by this I mean her personality and true and unique character traits that we all loved are not being expressed) is as a blowup doll for all of the male characters to sleep with.

Right on, THB! Yeah, she's a double slut, and that is just sad. I remember the TV show (sorry, viners! But I value it's portrayal over the comics' version anyday!) and think this is all just hype, trying to be controversial for sales' sake.

If she seemed more excited in her desire to have sex with other characters, like a giddy schoolgirl or dewy-eyed college coed might, this could fly. But she's approaching it like a working girl at a truck stop, and that's cheap and wrong.

#24 Edited by Cervantes (634 posts) - - Show Bio

@B'Town said:

@tim2081 said:

@thehummingbird said:

@tim2081 said:

I think that's a very popular pose for women coming out of water. I believe I've seen similar pictures of real models.

Second, what's wrong with a porn star being a superhero. Stripperella was a stripper and superhero. You can argue that type of character doesn't belong in this book. But people are calling that sexism, which it isn't.

Personally I think porn stars and strippers and such should not be demeaned, it is a line of work which is available and while still judged by some, it can generally be pretty widely accepted. The issue here however, is not which the fact starfire is displaying characteristics of either of these two career options or something along this line of work, but in general most of starfire's personality and character base has been traded in for the character we have present. Starfire no longer has as strong of a personality and nor is she being portrayed as a strong woman like Catwoman is in the new DCU even is she is sleeping with Batman. Starfire has been placed in the new DCU to be about the intellectual level of Karen from meangirls who checks the weather with her boobs. The only purpose starfire is serving as of this moment (and by this I mean her personality and true and unique character traits that we all loved are not being expressed) is as a blowup doll for all of the male characters to sleep with. This is not wrong, but I would be much more okay with this sort of portryal, if I felt like the writers were trying to expand her character and create some kind of plot or character development. I hope this makes some sense.

The character being changed to something you don't like is a legitimate complaint, but it happens all the time. It's the nature of the reboot, some characters changed a lot, and others not so much. This isn't a book about superheroes, it's about Outlaws, so the necessary changes will be made.

When you look at the comics as a whole, Starfire was the most powerful character; Jason and Roy wouldn't have escaped without her. And it was also Starfire who asked Roy to have sex. So she can't be compared to a "blowup doll". For the people who have never heard of Starfire, she comes off as being a powerful alien who doesn't have human emotions, but likes to have sex; and that seems like a good setup for expansion in later issues.

Starfire is the most powerful, but not in character, and character as well as strength and abilities, is what many of us are referring to when we say we want a powerful sexy heroine or villain.

Whether or not Starfire was the one who asked to have sex is irrelevant to the comparison of her being written as a blow up doll. I am all for a woman asking for what she wants whether that be sex or anything else. She is compared to a blow up doll because she has no personality. Her primary function in this book was for fanboy/girl titillation nothing else. Absolute ZERO character. My guess is the writers will expand on her character eventually. And I took this into consideration before I cancelled my subscription. However I decided, that I could not support this book because of the way they have already initially used and exploited her.

Like your thoughts, Razz...

Good going, B! I don't mind if they want to have Starfire bringin' sexy back, but the twisted outfit, her flattened affect, and emotion-free propositioning make you wonder if she's been abused -- NOT SEXY TO TAKE STAR DOWN THIS PATH.

The old ways were best where she was concerned, with Starfire being a bombshell from another planet, innocent and naive where our ways are concerned, yet her openly sexual nature makes us look innocent and naive in turn. Or the way she was on the Teen Titans show, which I like far better.

You know you like her better this way, come on!

She can be kinda vivacious or mysterious beauty from space and then it's wholesome if not edgy.

This new take? FAIL. The girl behind the counter at Mickey D's asked me if I wanted fries with that? with more enthusiasm than Starfire did when she propositioned him! That's part of what is getting under everyone's skin, for good reason.

On a side note, I wish they'd keep Starfire over with Titans or outer space stuff. She's a walking breach of the fourth wall anywhere else... I never read Bat titles that had her as Dick's girlfriend, it ruined the "this is really happening, it's all possible" vibe of a family of vigilantes organized around the Dark Knight himself -- one of whom is bedding a redhead with gold skin and green eyes from outer space, nnng. Barbara comes over to talk to Dick -- and there's the Van Halen shirt, draped over a space alien! No. No. No. No.

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