Redhood & the Outlaws #3 discussion (spoiler alert)

#1 Edited by Sinestro2828 (1507 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, finished reading issue 3 of "Redhood and the Outlaws" and gotta say it left ALOT to be desired....

The artwork was beautiful, but the scenes in which that little immortal kid S'aru the Protector viewed the personal memories of Starfire and Roy were very off putting, especially since they were supposed to be the most cherished memories of each Outlaw member. Jason's most cherished memory of his time with Bruce was very touching and made alot of sense as to why it was his most cherished memory, as well as made you sad that he surrendered it for good instead of reclaiming it like Starfire & Roy did theirs. However, Starfire's and Roy's memories made no sense at all and could not have possibly been the most cherished moments of their lives. Starfire's most cherished memory was of the time she brutally murdered a Citadelian guard during her time as a prisoner/slave, but not just any Citadelian, her victim was the ONE and ONLY Citadelian who took pity on her. Out of an entire race of brutal warmongers and conquerors, she killed the one Citadelian with a sense of mercy and sympathy towards her, a young girl enslaved over a political treaty despite her royal heritage! Seriously, how could THAT be Starfire's most cherished memory? Shouldn't it have been the good times she spent with her parents prior to the Citadel's attack and Blackfire's betrayal? Or the times she spent with the Teen Titans and/or Dick Grayson? Lobdell expects us to believe her fondest memory is of the time she killed an alien who was actually trying to reach out to her? God only knows what torture the other guards put her through after she murdered one of their own >_<. It would have made more sense if she killed the guard for trying to hurt her or something like that, but instead she just set herself up for more suffering by killing the one guy in that Citadelian prison with a sense of morality, seems more like something her psychotic big sister Blackfire would do. I mean, the scene makes Starfire look more like a villainess in the making as opposed to a defiant young heroine standing up for herself, it honestly would have played out better if the Citadelian had been hostile or violent, actually DESERVING to die the way he did.

Also, little kid Starfire possessed starbolts...This seems to suggest that in New 52 continuity all Tamaraneans are born with super powers as opposed to Starfire, Blackfire, & Darkfire being the only ones with Starbolts due to Psion experimentation like in the original continuity. I'm not sure what to make of that, other than wonder how the hell the Citadel was able to pose a threat to an entire race of beings with the same powers as Starfire when a child in chains can take down a full grown Citadelian warrior by herself...Or why the Citadelians only put her in shackles, were they unaware that someone so young could use starbolts? I mean, if they'd been at war with Tamaran before you'd think they'd know about their powers and how to properly restrain a Tamaranean (its like allowing a prisoner to walk about freely with a gun & expecting him/her not to shoot you). I suppose its possible that only Royal family members can use starbolts or something and they didn't know she'd mastered them yet. Also, the Citadelian she killed was very well spoken as opposed to being dimwitted like his species was originally portrayed (not a bad thing really).

As for Roy, his most cherished memory was of the time Killer Croc spared his life instead of killing him because he figured out at the last second that Roy WANTED to die so he wouldn't have to live with the pain of having been given the boot by Green Arrow and losing all his shares with Q-Core. Killer Croc people....Roy's most cherished memory is of the time KILLER CROC took pity on him & forced him to live with himself...I'm sorry, but that really comes off as pretty pathetic, especially given Croc's rep as one of Batman's most murderous opponents, him showing mercy to Roy really drives home how far he's fallen in recent continuity (and gives me newfound respect for the Red Arrow version of him from Young Justice). Its like adding insult to injury, he's hit rock bottom so badly that even a monster like Croc can't bring himself to finish him >_<

I've been trying to give the new series a chance, but I REALLY do not like how Lobdell has changed Starfire and Roy Harper, Roy's become a bit of a joke who likes to make not so funny quips and Starfire's screwy memory span and apparently ruthless younger self make you miss her original, true incarnation even more, I'm honestly not sure if I want to pick up anymore issues of this series, I FEAR what Lobdell has done to Starfire's past with the Titans at this point O_O

At any rate, what did you guys think of issue 3? Good or bad? And if ya vote bad, do ya think the series is still worth following or is now the time to throw in the towel & pray Lobdell's reboot is rebooted? Thats pretty much how I feel at the moment, I was willing to give lobdell a shot but this latest issue has me doubting whether I want to subject myself to anymore of his work, few signs of it getting better, more signs of it just getting worse.

#2 Posted by BecauseISaidSo (99 posts) - - Show Bio

As you can clearly see Lobdell is only going back to when Roy was a druggie and didn't have a thing with Cheshire and had Lian. And with Starfire...he made her in his image. It's like he's only going back to the 1980's version and only knowing that version, past that he's not keeping track. But I agree with the whole Star/Roy past thing, if what Lobdell said was true about Starfire lying about her still having her memories of everything then he probably doesn't want to write the whole thing because he probably doesn't even know what went past The New Teen Titans series. And I vote something that's farther than bad, I was hoping if this series went anywhere but it's not, it really is not. The series has horrible dialouge especially with the last issue with Ducra, I mean she's how old and she's saying words like yutz and man-child!!! If you were doing a character who was 500 years old you would give them the type of dialouge they used when they were raised in whichever era. I would have also picture Jason's treasured memory the day when Bruce picked him up from the streets and took him in.

#3 Posted by Shotgun (900 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that the reason why Lobdell put in Starfire's memory from her days of emprisonment and Roy's memory of the fight from Killer Croc, was because it was a crucial point in their life. A turning point. Starfire's was that she finally came around to the fact that she wasn't helpless and to be belittled(or something along those lines) and Roy's memory had him starting out depressed and unmotivated(basically sorta looking to die when he picked a fight with Killer Croc) and then coming out of the fight more..well, with a more improved outlook.

To clarify, I didn't read the series yet, but I did read this really awesome review that really went at issue 3 and convinced me to love it, even through I've only seen around three pages of it. I'm trying to find it...

#4 Posted by Afro_Warrior (1120 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Roy's cherished memory made sense. That beating he took from Croc and the advice Croc gave, was the moment he realised maybe their was something to live for after all. It was the moment in which he decided to start dragging himself out of the gutter. Crocs words in essence saved him, which is why that memory is so important to him.

I found Starfire's a little trickier to understand, but my thoughts are similar to Shotgun's on this. Kori had been sold into slavery, and despite that guards sweet words. She was still a slave and that was the moment she decided to fight back and refuse to allow anyone to take advantage of her.

Good review though and you make some interesting points, albeit one's i disagree with.

#5 Posted by God_Spawn (35972 posts) - - Show Bio

The ending was pretty good IMO.

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#6 Posted by Outside_85 (7060 posts) - - Show Bio

Think the story needed a slight tweak to really stick; 
"Jason, I'll take your fondest childhood memory of  a man you don't like anymore. Roy and Starfire, I'll take the memory of your most important moment in life."
 
Jason: I wont say it makes sense that little guy takes the most cherished memory and then Jason totally discards it, since its supposed to be cherished, its something he'd want back no matter the cost.
Starfire: If her most cherished memory is about killing someone (and even someone who seemed to be interested in showing her humanity on top of that) and not something from her time with her family or possibly the Titans...then I truly worry about Starfire's mental condition. It makes better sense if it was the memory of the most important event in her life, first time she fought back.
Roy: Same with that one as with Starfire, its not a childhood memory with family or even with Ollie that's the most important to him; it's getting told by Killer Croc to get his act together... (At least Wallace had Lian's death and drugs as an excuse to make Roy a wreck)
 
So yeah, guess this group really is that f'ed in the head.

#7 Posted by EnSabahNurX (2310 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

Think the story needed a slight tweak to really stick; "Jason, I'll take your fondest childhood memory of a man you don't like anymore. Roy and Starfire, I'll take the memory of your most important moment in life." Jason: I wont say it makes sense that little guy takes the most cherished memory and then Jason totally discards it, since its supposed to be cherished, its something he'd want back no matter the cost. Starfire: If her most cherished memory is about killing someone (and even someone who seemed to be interested in showing her humanity on top of that) and not something from her time with her family or possibly the Titans...then I truly worry about Starfire's mental condition. It makes better sense if it was the memory of the most important event in her life, first time she fought back. Roy: Same with that one as with Starfire, its not a childhood memory with family or even with Ollie that's the most important to him; it's getting told by Killer Croc to get his act together... (At least Wallace had Lian's death and drugs as an excuse to make Roy a wreck) So yeah, guess this group really is that f'ed in the head.

Rpy's memory made sense, a former druggy's strongest memory is the day they hit rock bottom and decide to get clean

Star's is about her empowerment which is what led to her joining the titans and led to her fond memories, it was a key moment in her life

Jason would discard his most cherished memory because he wouldn't want to accept that he still looks fondly at bruce being part of his past

The memories were most likely cherished but not necessarily in the forefront of their minds, those were probably the memories that stood out the most in their lives, key moments that shaped them

#8 Posted by lsumd2011 (3 posts) - - Show Bio

I liked the chapter quite honestly, but then again I've like the series since day one. From my perspective, Flashpoint gave us a reboot of the DCU, but a reboot is pointless if you get a carbon copy of a character from the old DCU in the new DCU. Lobdell changes of Jason, Roy, and Kori is different to be sure, but I find it interesting. And quite honestly I like this version of the characters and am looking forward to where the story is going.

#9 Posted by Outside_85 (7060 posts) - - Show Bio
@EnSabahNurX
But atm, do we even know if Roy was ever a junkie at this point?
As for Starfire, well, yes I can see why its the most important moment in her life, but the most cherished? (Maybe that just me thinking of her being embraced by both her parents begin the most cherished?)
 
@lsumd2011
To be honest, I don't mind changes either, as long as I can still find the character I used to like in what's being presented afterwards (like I can still find Superman and Wonder Woman in Action and WW despite their changes) and that's what I don't like about Lobdell's changes, I cant find the characters I used to like in the people that carry the names. It's more like he skinned the originals and dressed other people in those skins.
#10 Posted by Afro_Warrior (1120 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85:

Just wanted to answer your first question. Roy was an addict in the New52.

#11 Edited by lsumd2011 (3 posts) - - Show Bio

@ Outside

That's not necessarily a bad thing though. I found Kori's characterization was starting to become flat these past few years. And lets not forget that Roy was basically in the mother of all character nose dives after Cry For Justice. Starting these two characters over, so to speak, wasn't that bad of an idea. Besides, this gives modern audiences a chance to watch a pair of characters develop and mature, rather than having to go back over 30 year of comics to see how they ended up where they are.

#12 Posted by Outside_85 (7060 posts) - - Show Bio
@Afro_Warrior: Thx :)
@lsumd2011
Well that can be argued, since the characters aren't new in print and they aren't new in this world either and we don't really know what the rest of their story is yet (still dont know why Starfire seems detached from the others, but I figure that's in the past with the Titans)
Also its always risky tampering with established characters, since the names are what initially draw people in, but that also means they will come with presumptions about what the characters are about.
And yeah, Roy was nosediving because someone thought pairing him with Deathstroke and more drugs was brilliant...but currently I miss the JLA and former Outsiders member that came before that. (Note I didn't read the old TT issues where he was heavilly featured, Green Arrow or the issues where he was caught, I know he's a former junkie and that he had a kid with a crazy woman...and that was enough for me.)
#13 Posted by Grubich (368 posts) - - Show Bio

All im gonna say is love the series so far, and hope it never ends with these 3.

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