Reasons why New 52 Kori is actually BETTER than the older Kori

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#51 Posted by Afro_Warrior (1120 posts) - - Show Bio

@stepford said:

Yes, because Starfire says she wants to have meaningless sex with douchey a-holes who order her around, we're supposed to take it as some sort of female empowerment. This is not Starfire. This is an amnesiac animated love doll. When she's not begging for sex she's standing around in a thong and arching her back in ridiculos positions. It's the worst kind of cheap lowest-common-denominator male fantasy. Lobdell is a hack.

Have you read issues 3 and 4? If you haven't i'd recommend that you do, since they may change your opinion on this new Starfire's portrayal.

If you have, i'd be very interested to know what about the newer issues, leads you to still hold this view.

#52 Posted by Archlord (140 posts) - - Show Bio

I think fans should love the new Kori. She's cool, and she has character, other than being a naive little girl anymore, she has gorwn.

Something I've never liked: That 7 year old little girl (Who liked the TT animated series) thinks she knows Starfire.

She's with a group of anti-heroes, what do you expect her to do, prevent them from killin'?

And damnit... her real name isn't Starfire...

#53 Edited by God_Spawn (37314 posts) - - Show Bio

@stepford said:

Yes, because Starfire says she wants to have meaningless sex with douchey a-holes who order her around, we're supposed to take it as some sort of female empowerment. This is not Starfire. This is an amnesiac animated love doll. When she's not begging for sex she's standing around in a thong and arching her back in ridiculos positions. It's the worst kind of cheap lowest-common-denominator male fantasy. Lobdell is a hack.

Have you read any of the issues...like at all? I'm guessing

A) You didn't.

B) When the internet exploded with people complaining about Kori only before and just after the 1st issue came out and you're basing it off that.

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#54 Posted by Archlord (140 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: A lot of people don't like anti-heroes, and they possibly can't understand them.

#55 Posted by God_Spawn (37314 posts) - - Show Bio

@Archlord: I don't think that is the problem is they don't understand them. If anyone has been current with the series they would see why that assumption is wrong.

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#56 Posted by Archlord (140 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: I'm sure you speak of Starfire's tamaranean nature, when she was growing up. Now that she is an adult, it's only the way she would act, right?

#57 Posted by God_Spawn (37314 posts) - - Show Bio

@Archlord: Pretty much. Her whole character was 180'd but I think the point to that was for her to get over Dick Grayson cause that was one of the reasons she was known prior was because of her relationship with him. The new 52 Kori yes had sex with Roy and Jason but that was only issue 1. Ever since then she has avoided confrontation with humans choosing to stay above Roy and Jason in issue 4. She put a hand on Jason's shoulder when he sat and prayed for the All Caste, she showed she isn't to be pushed around even as a child and she apologized to the Xenophobe who was hunting her because his family died due to a Tamaranean war ship exploding. She proceeded to still beat him up before he ran but still that is because she isn't to be pushed around. She seems to be a warrior princess, she doesn't have to pay attention to stuff she feels unimportant, you could say prior to being traded she was spoiled but we don't know. Kori does what she wants, remembers what she wants has sex with who she wants but is still showing commitment to the team by sticking with them even though she is free to leave. Her whole gimmick now is to do what she wants and I guess that encompasses everything.

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#58 Posted by Nightstar1 (48 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to disagree. We're at issue five now, and I can't see New 52 Kori being a better character than the Old DCU's Kory. And here's why:

The Lobdell "memory" thing was just bad writing. Jason brought it up, and Kori, for whatever reason, made the point that she didn't remember seemingly important people from her past. The case was never made as to why Jason brought it up, or why Kori "pretended" not to know Dick, or any of the people she should have known in the story-line. It has been explained, outside of the story line, that she was being "evasive" or "sarcastic". Maybe a "weaker" character might have just stated that she didn't really know Roy, and that her past was none of his business. But the new "empowered" Kori fakes amnesia and "changes the subject" by having sex with Roy. And to state that this Kori isn't clingy? Wasn't she shown 'cuddling' with Roy after meaningless sex? And in issue 5, how clingy is she? This is after just five issues.

And her relationship with Dick is a huge issue in this comic. If it wasn't, then why was it brought up at all? If they wanted to start her over as a character, she didn't have to know him at all. Yeah, the Dick/Kory fans would be upset, but would they be any less upset if they downgraded the relationship, or had it "end badly", or whatever? Would they get over it if she was made a good character in the New 52. Maybe, or maybe not. But as of issue 5, Kori is STILL connected to "Richard". She did say something that sounded an awful lot like "Richard" (Dick's new NEW 52 name.) And the internet blew up because fans were thrown into a tizzy because she said his name (or something a lot like his name) when she was very vulnerable. And this is interesting. From the beginning of New Teen Titans #1, it was over two years before Dick and Kory became a couple. During that time, her character grew through other outside relationships. (the other Titans (especially her sisterly relationship wit Donna), her work, and her rivalry with her sister. The Kori of the Outlaws jumps into bed with Roy in the first issue, by issue 5 she's cuddling with him in the snow. AND she is again connected to Richard in some way.

The Starfire that Wolfman and Perez created was "free, independent and sexually, liberated".

As to being "hip" and stronger. I have to question the use of the word "hip" to demonstrate the modernness of a person (or character). Kori's "hipness" has, so far been shown in a rejected outfit from the movie Purple Rain, and the sunglasses my grandpa wore when he was out driving. And it seems like she's not looking over her shoulder wondering if she has any friends because she doesn't. At least none that aren't on hand all the time. And the NTT's Kory didn't wonder if she had friends. That was something that came about after the Bat-Editor's decided to cancel Dick and Kory's wedding, and split them up. Wolfman/Perez's Kory loved everyone, and she had a lot of friends, because she was likable. She was free, sexual and liberated, joyous, powerful and loved as a character.

But that's just my take.

#59 Posted by Mercy_ (92554 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nightstar1: On the Dick/Kory relationship, Higgins has already said that yes, it was canon and no, it will not be rekindled.

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#60 Edited by Nightstar1 (48 posts) - - Show Bio

I also remember reading that the Wolfman/Perez era Titans would emerge pretty much untouched.  
As in everything with the Reboot, only time will tell. 

#61 Posted by Shotgun (900 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

  1. Not sure how she's stronger, and she's nowhere near Wonder Woman

I thought that the cover with her frying some random dude's head with her starbolts would have given you a clue. Besides, she's always had cannon super-strength. Add that to her training as a warrior princess and her survivor instincts from her time of imprisonment, I'd say that she's still formidable. I've never read about Starfire before the reboot, but I remember seeing a panel online where Kori said that her starbolts only stunned its victims.

#62 Posted by Nightstar1 (48 posts) - - Show Bio
@Shotgun@Shotgun said:

@ReVamp said:

  1. Not sure how she's stronger, and she's nowhere near Wonder Woman

I thought that the cover with her frying some random dude's head with her starbolts would have given you a clue. Besides, she's always had cannon super-strength. Add that to her training as a warrior princess and her survivor instincts from her time of imprisonment, I'd say that she's still formidable. I've never read about Starfire before the reboot, but I remember seeing a panel online where Kori said that her starbolts only stunned its victims.

I remember seeing a panel in the New Teen Titans where Starfire caught and carried a falling bridge girder. That's pretty strong. She may not be as strong as Supes or WW, but she is (or was) certainly stronger than humans. 
#63 Posted by X9 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

I just think... they're trying to make Starfire look like other strong female characters of huge sucess on DCU.

They could've invested on her original personality, just changing a couple of little things. I mean, comics are full of strong, brave, totally independent, no "crying babies" women. It'd be nice to have a different female model to identify with. To me, they simply gave up on this side of Starfire but, as they wouldn't delate her, they rebuilted her completly.

What's a shame, cause moderating her original personality would deliver an unique and carismatic character .

That's why I still can't see her as a strong one.

#64 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

@sisay said:

Let me correct myself by saying that, a year ago, I would've been hands-down incessantly and vehemently voicing my opinions with "Why Dick and Kori belong together" (Blah, blah). Right now, I figure this image of Starfire is a lot better than her previous incarnation. Why?

  • I understand that the internet exploded after they thought Lodbell was implying that she had a memory of a gold fish (which is totally not the case), because I was kinda' sad too. But after reading countless other user reviews of both RHAO #1 and #2, I realized this may be the best rendition of Starfire yet! Why? Because she's not clingy. She's not overly dependent on people anymore. She isn't this cry baby who after years of break up and hooking up on and off is still hampering for Dick even if its obvious that she should MOVE ON.
  • Starfire is now tailored to be this free, independent and sexually liberated female force that no one can stop, and we have Lodbell to thank for that. I don't understand why some feminists can't see that.
  • She's hip and stronger now. She is almost leveling herself to he aura of Wonder woman now that she's not always looking over her shoulder wondering if she still has friends or not, because frankly, right now, she's fine being herself and loving herself the way she is.
  • She's as confident as hell, and I don't see why people hate this new version of her.

I love the new Starfire. :)

I love this thread.

#65 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

Couldn't disagree more with this thread. The old Starfire is in my top ten favorites, while the new Starfire is in my top ten least favorites. But that's just me. Different opinions are different opinions and everyone's entitled to them.

#66 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4 said:

Couldn't disagree more with this thread. The old Starfire is in my top ten favorites, while the new Starfire is in my top ten least favorites. But that's just me. Different opinions are different opinions and everyone's entitled to them.

In what way? I think Starfire really proven herself to come out of Dick Grayson's shadow and established herself as a power house. Right before this, Starfire was never a fan favourite. Theres even a thread why I hate Starfire (bcos she "stole" dick from babs).

She wasn't even on ame comi girls when Raven has like 3 or 4 of them.

I prefer the starfire now, she is powerful, strong and got a character, despite the internet controversy, she has indeed really shown herself to be DC's lead female character.

#67 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

I didn't really want to elaborate on my opinion, I was just saying that my opinion differs from others. But since you asked, I'll go ahead and mention a couple things I have a problem with, though since I'm working on a few things and don't really have the time to write out a big long essay at the moment, I'll refer to a couple other people who have said what I think quite well already. First, a quote from a past discussion about Starfire.

@Nightstar1 said:

@mrpandaman:

Lobdell established Starfire as the most cognicient and smartest of the 3 especially in issue 4 where she did warn Jason and Roy about the trap they were about to walk into.

Just like it was Nightwing, Starfire, and Arsenal, it is going to be Red Hood, Starfire, and Roy Harper. This is something familiar to Starfire. On a planet where she feels most people will discriminate against her, this for Starfire is where she feels she belongs.

As Starfire said, she doesn't live in the past, but she does appreciate it and that doesn't mean she cannot have things that remind her of her past.

It just seems that you just wanted to hate Red Hood and the Outlaws from the get-go. I don't see how the things revealed in this issue are fixing "bad" writing when it has been made clear that this was the plan from the start.

Being "smart" has nothing to do with Starfire warning Roy and Jason about the trap. Lobdell said that Starfire was an "animal in a woman's body". (BTW, when Lobdell was describing Starfire, he never used the word "smart". He said she was a deus ex machina, powerhouse, sexy, alien (catchall for all of the walking contradictions which make up the new Starfire even though she doesn't LOOK like an alien- heck, she looks like a modern SUPERMODEL - Even the original Kory had huge cat-like eyes, which emphasized the fact that they were pupil-less, or necessarily act in a way which is alien - I'm free and I like to have meaningless sex isn't, in fact, "alien". It's wishful thinking for frat boys.), and "an ANIMAL". Maybe, rather than out thinking those traps, the "animal" instincts took over and she was able to sense the traps.

And I'm no expert in Lobdell's writing, but he seems to have her say one thing, and act in another. She's not living in the past, but she's surrounded by those costumes which she sniffs in order to remind her of "something" from the past. It's not like she was getting on with her life in issue six. She was hiding in her familiar alien "cave" and sniffing old clothes. And so that "familiarity" makes sense in the "animal" scenario.

As to my not liking the Outlaws from the start, that's not necessarily true. When I found out that Starfire would be featured in a new book, I was thrilled. I saw the costume, I didn't complain. I defended it as a fantasy costume in a superhero comic for a solar strength character. But then I started getting information about the book. The character. The "past". And then I became discouraged. And then the first issue came out, and one of my favorite characters was reduced to "Can I do anything else for you", and "I'm bored. Wanna have sex?", and the ridiculous posing...and this is how one of my favorite characters is presented in the debut issue. I get why Lobdell did it. It was to drum up readership. It was to fabricate a controversy. But some of the fans aren't happy that he did it this way.

And let's be honest. There are some 'Fans" who have been saying: See, something happened. Everything's fine." "See, she's wearing clothes. Everything's fine. She told a joke, everything's fine. She can lift two guys. Everything's fine. You know what would have been "fine"? If Koriand'r wasn't presented in a way which was such a mockery of an alien, a princess and a super-heroine.

The part in bold is what I have a real problem with. It doesn't really matter to me what changed after the first issue that drew all the controversy, the fact that they felt the need to present her in that way in the first place is just offensive. And before you go saying that "oh, what was wrong with that? She's just a sexually liberated female", allow me to point you to this articlewhich describes in great detail as to just what was wrong with that first issue, as well as some other unrelated stuff that happened in Catwoman. And yes, this article was written by a woman, offering a female perspective on why people were so upset over it.

Specifically, though, this quote:

The problem is that when I look at these women, I would very much like to see confident ladies who enjoy sex and are having a fun sexy time. But what I see instead are women who give me the same impression as creepy dead-eyed porn stars mechanically mouthing "oh yeah, I want it." And that feeling of coerced sexual enthusiasm is the creepiest, saddest, most unerotic thing I can imagine. And if I were able to have a boner, seeing something like that would make me lose it every time.

My point is that there were many, many different and better ways they could have handled a change in Starfire's character. They could have made her strong, sexy, even promiscuous, and still have done it tastefully. Instead, they just went with the easy cheescake route, and it makes me want nothing to do with her in the DCnU.

#68 Edited by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4: Alrights lets just break it down

Being "smart" has nothing to do with Starfire warning Roy and Jason about the trap. Lobdell said that Starfire was an "animal in a woman's body". (BTW, when Lobdell was describing Starfire, he never used the word "smart". He said she was a deus ex machina, powerhouse, sexy, alien (catchall for all of the walking contradictions which make up the new Starfire even though she doesn't LOOK like an alien- heck, she looks like a modern SUPERMODEL - Even the original Kory had huge cat-like eyes, which emphasized the fact that they were pupil-less, or necessarily act in a way which is alien - I'm free and I like to have meaningless sex isn't, in fact, "alien". It's wishful thinking for frat boys.), and "an ANIMAL". Maybe, rather than out thinking those traps, the "animal" instincts took over and she was able to sense the traps.

It really doesn't matter what Scott says outside the comic book (Neither have I seen an interview for that) But Starfire has always been a liberated being. So what if Scott describe her as sexy and powerful, isn't Emma Frost one of the sexiest xmen and also one of the most powerful one? Also, yeah she does look like a Supermodel, but so happens that Superman looks like a freaking supermodel with an adonis face and guess what he is alien also. Also, I don't get whats the problem with Starfire wanting to have meaningless sex, she did that with captain comet.

And I'm no expert in Lobdell's writing, but he seems to have her say one thing, and act in another. She's not living in the past, but she's surrounded by those costumes which she sniffs in order to remind her of "something" from the past. It's not like she was getting on with her life in issue six. She was hiding in her familiar alien "cave" and sniffing old clothes. And so that "familiarity" makes sense in the "animal" scenario.

Again untrue. Starfire has a spaceship and it contains Nightwing's old outfit. She didn't get depressed and start crying over Nightwing, She didn't intentionally sniff it to be reminded of the past. She knows its something that mattered to her in the past. But she sees no point in throwing it away because its just a costume, it doesn't make the person. Neither does she grabbed on to it and neither did she grabbed onto it and held it with her dear life to be reminded of her past. Its there because its left there. Incidentally, Scott wasn't the one who scripted that issue.

And let's be honest. There are some 'Fans" who have been saying: See, something happened. Everything's fine." "See, she's wearing clothes. Everything's fine. She told a joke, everything's fine. She can lift two guys. Everything's fine. You know what would have been "fine"? If Koriand'r wasn't presented in a way which was such a mockery of an alien, a princess and a super-heroine.

Clothes - doesn't really matter what she wears, in NTT she first appeared with the skimpiest outfit any of the DC women are wearing and it has been always like that.

Told a joke - Uhm, did she really? She was revealed that she still remembers people by their smell and sight. So yeah, she can't remember who Dick Grayson is, but if she sees or smell him, then it'll appear. But again, so what? She has been living in Dick Grayson's shadows for years and the only thing she can talk about is being a love sick puppy.

She can lift two guys - She has always been portrayed as being powerful, even now she still is. Psychologist have mentioned that in the media, women's portrayal have been lacking of leadership role, it detrimentally affects people's mind in that we're socialised by media and culture that women are nurturing, warm and caring. This stereotype according to psychologist is perhaps the worst one that depicts women as lesser than man in working environment. Women have seldom been portrayed as powerful, assertive and in leadership position which is affecting the portrayal of women and lead into a discriminatory behaviour at work.

The part in bold is what I have a real problem with. It doesn't really matter to me what changed after the first issue that drew all the controversy, the fact that they felt the need to present her in that way in the first place is just offensive. And before you go saying that "oh, what was wrong with that? She's just a sexually liberated female", allow me to point you to this articlewhich describes in great detail as to just what was wrong with that first issue, as well as some other unrelated stuff that happened in Catwoman. And yes, this article was written by a woman, offering a female perspective on why people were so upset over it.

Let me point out to you another point of view by another female columnist. http://panelsonpages.com/?p=43603

There is no where offensive about how she is portrayed. Let me point out to you another women in the media that is sexy, powerful, brave and "poses in a ridiculous manner".

Weird how nobody complained about the sexy super spy who uses her sexuality to her advantage and is not afraid to wear revealing clothes and a bikini. Whats even weirder is that it is being aired in a network that markets to teenage and young adult women.

You could say, but Nikita never had meaningless sex, sure, she had sex but only with people she cared about. Well, then lets look at another character

I recalled Meredith started the show being a really strong female character, capable and have meaningless sex with men. So did tons of other interns that doesn't want a relationship and just have meaningless sex. But they are all portrayed as capable, smart and attractive females in reputable jobs. I don't see it as anything different from what is going on in RHATO.

Specifically, though, this quote:

The problem is that when I look at these women, I would very much like to see confident ladies who enjoy sex and are having a fun sexy time. But what I see instead are women who give me the same impression as creepy dead-eyed porn stars mechanically mouthing "oh yeah, I want it." And that feeling of coerced sexual enthusiasm is the creepiest, saddest, most unerotic thing I can imagine. And if I were able to have a boner, seeing something like that would make me lose it every time.

My point is that there were many, many different and better ways they could have handled a change in Starfire's character. They could have made her strong, sexy, even promiscuous, and still have done it tastefully. Instead, they just went with the easy cheescake route, and it makes me want nothing to do with her in the DCnU.

There was nothing wrong with the dialogues and the scripts as they both did not show women in typical stereotype as warm, nurturing caring. They are superheroes or should I say outlaws, they should be strong, assertive and courageous. So what if Starfire have meaningless sex because she doesn't want her emotions to be involved, so what if that is what Tamaranians are like. Are they wrong be so? And with regards to that quote, it has nothing to do with the script but more like what Ken's portrayal of women is like. Yes its a little cheesecake, yes its because his art is too realistic that he shows all the details of women anatomy and brings out the sexy in his point of view, but that was what was described to him, Starfire is a sexy being. It didn't deviate from the old universe, she was a sexy liberated being and still is. Also, its a whole team's effort, where both the assistant editor and editors of that book are female and they're all telling a story that they think would be suitable for the tone of the book and is appropriate for the character. If theres one thing I would say spark this whole controversy, its definitely how realistic Ken's drawing have been. I'm almost 100% sure, there wouldn't be this much of a controversy should Ken's drawing was done with a little less cheesecake and a little more behind the scene with the exactly same dialogue. If that is so, then its purely the art and has nothing to do with the script, the dialogues or the character.

Just my 2 cents.

#69 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

*shakes head* see, this is what I was trying not to do. I didn't want to get into a big discussion, debate, argument, thing, whatever. I'm not trying to change your opinion, because I know I won't, just like you're not going to change my opinion. That's the great thing about life, we're allowed to have different opinions. All I was saying was that I feel differently, and I already explained why. That's it, there's nothing more to it. You're free to have your own opinion, I don't care if it's a different one that I don't agree with. The constant back and forth discussion about why two separate people do or do not like this rendition of Starfire is going to accomplish nothing except stating those points over and over again until the end of time. Nothing is going to change. So let's just leave it at that.

#70 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4: Do agree on your first point. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I just have a habit of sticking up for characters that I truely love and have a passion about. I would do the same for all my favourite characters including Kal, Kon, Kara, Hal, Arthur, Ollie, Barry and etc. Kory just happens to be one of my favourites as well.

#71 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

And I can understand that, but this new Starfire just isn't for me. I remember the old Starfire from the Wolfman/Perez era, and that's the version that I'll always love. Is a change in character good sometimes? Sure, and there were some things about the old Starfire I could think to change that could have made her a little better. However, the extremes to which they altered her in the New 52 just completely turned me off to her, but nothing that can be done about it now. Just seems like a little more care could have been taken to continue making her a sexy, strong character without causing a such an incredible storm of controversy. Anyway, that's it for my thoughts, I'm out.

#72 Posted by RogueOracle (242 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually really enjoy her character. The costume seems a bit much at times on a lot of angles, but Red Hood and the Outlaws is one of my favourite series.

#73 Posted by Z3RO180 (6309 posts) - - Show Bio

i like the new kori

#74 Posted by TeamUnitedNerds (402 posts) - - Show Bio

*looks at title*

*throws laptop out of window*

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