No, but really, why?

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#51 Posted by akbogert (3216 posts) - - Show Bio

@XavierAM: Cool! Glad you found your way here (and welcome to the Vine; hopefully you'll stay ^_^).

To be fair, even though I think the way they show Starfire is really lame, she is a great character and Lobdell had done a good job of making her interesting and strong. Obviously it undermines my own point here, but I'd encourage you to give Red Hood and the Outlaws a chance in spite of the fanservice, because it's quite a fun book.

#52 Edited by Zeeguy91 (1104 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComicMan24 said:

Kinda disagree with you here. Just because she is back to her old costume, doesn't mean that whatever progression has takes place is gone. For me it doesn't really matter what she wears but how she is written. If she is written good, does it really matter what she is wearing?

Totally agree with this.

Oh and

#53 Posted by Zeeguy91 (1104 posts) - - Show Bio

@XavierAM said:

Hey. I found my way here because I did a google search for recent pages anout Starfire. I was curious what had changed since the big starfire scandal of last year. I read a lot of comics as a kid / teen and still have a fondness for the hobby. Every so often, I wonder "what's good? What's worth getting into?"I'm sad to see that it really is as bad as the reputation would have it. Distorted, fan service art; callous execs and misogynistic grognards. I'm disappointed.So, yeah, in case you're wondering, this blatant sexism is costing the industry readers.

Dude. Calm down. If anything, there are posters here that are saying the opposite. Starfire as a character is portrayed as strong, fierce, smart, and independent. Her costume is an afterthought. If anything, I'm pretty sure that they went back to the old look not because they are being sexist, but because an outfit like that is pretty much what Starfire has worn since her debut back in 1980. It'd actually be sexism if she was being written just as an object for Roy and Jason to bang while they're not beating up some villain, but that's just not the case.

#54 Posted by akbogert (3216 posts) - - Show Bio

@Zeeguy91 said:

I'm pretty sure that they went back to the old look not because they are being sexist, but because an outfit like that is pretty much what Starfire has worn since her debut back in 1980.

Devil's Advocate: Being sexist and being from 1980 are not mutually exclusive.

In fact, I'd say outfits designed 30 years ago are more likely to have been sexist than ones designed today. Likely is the operative word there. (Note: I also suggested not writing the character off for her costume -- I don't want to come across like I'm just arguing everything you say).

#55 Posted by lykopis (10752 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting blog and interesting comments.

I decided to forgo picking up RHTO because of how Starfire was re-introduced. Not to bring up old arguments that frankly, is just exhausting to go through again, but being an exclusively Marvel and indie comic reader, this book dropped out of my pool of DC series purely because of how Lobdell went about it.

It's too bad because Starfire sounds like a powerful female character with lots to enjoy about her.

Thank you for the images provided --- I really do like the spacesuit version. I remember being a thread made that dealt directly with the suit change and there were a lot of support for how it looked, especially from a design perspective. I appreciate the argument that Starfire is an amazing character who's choice of clothing means nothing in terms of story-telling so in that case, what's the big deal if they left her in the new design? As a fan of the character and book, what she is wearing (outside of a horrific design which I agree PowerGirl's is) shouldn't matter at all.

Just a couple of my pennies thrown in. Great discussion.

#56 Posted by akbogert (3216 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: You actually might want to consider picking up the TPB of the second volume when it comes out, as that's pretty much a self-contained Starfire-being-awesome-and-basically-clothed arc.

#57 Posted by SC (12957 posts) - - Show Bio

If Luke Cage started wearing a Ku Klux Klan outfit WHO CARES as long as he is being written well. Y'all stupid humans, aliens, gods, and whatever Wolverine is, silly silly though putting so much stock in outfits and uniforms though, Imma Blue Whale, natures natural free balling, nudist nature appreciator WOO! Down with pants, up with anti Japanese Whaling Hunting Ship posters and movies!

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#58 Posted by Fallen_Crippled (6448 posts) - - Show Bio

Starfire is known for lots of skin showing.

#59 Posted by God_Spawn (37683 posts) - - Show Bio

Luke Cage had his shirt constantly getting ripped off during Bendis' Avengers run. I don't see anyone complaining about that.

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#60 Posted by wessaari (622 posts) - - Show Bio

I dont know why everyone is so up in arms about her outfits. That how her culture is, and yes maybe it was made that way for getting eye candy, but thats how she was brought it, and for people to just now realize how she can be is just being naive. Now, for her ditching the commander suit, well she wore that when she was in the service, and wore it again because she was brought back. For her to go back to her normal clothes is completely logical, and for those who dontt like that than im sorry.

#61 Posted by End_Boss (725 posts) - - Show Bio

Guys (and gals), we're talking about a character that has never been anything more than cheesecake. Yes, it's unfortunate and speaks of slow social progression in the world of comic books, but that's what happens when you have big sweaty nerds writing comic books with a target audience largely populated by big sweaty nerds.

#62 Edited by Avenging-X-Bolt (12929 posts) - - Show Bio

thes pace suit is boring and generic. i would have just tweaked her first suit to make it acceptable

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#63 Edited by God_Spawn (37683 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari said:

I dont know why everyone is so up in arms about her outfits. That how her culture is, and yes maybe it was made that way for getting eye candy, but thats how she was brought it, and for people to just now realize how she can be is just being naive. Now, for her ditching the commander suit, well she wore that when she was in the service, and wore it again because she was brought back. For her to go back to her normal clothes is completely logical, and for those who dontt like that than im sorry.

I have to agree with this. I'm not really sure about the complaining at this point. It's part of her character and her character's culture. It's how she is and who she is. It's as every part of her character as a corset is to Emma Frost or the boob window to Power Girl. It's a double standard and people are just nitpicky. If it was something like what happened to recent Power Girl with her shirt getting ripped all the time despite the redesign being hella more conserative, then people could have a gripe. As I said before, it's not like anyone cared when Luke Cage's shirt getting ripped off mid battle in a Bendis fetish fest or how Namor ran around in a kelp speed for decades with fishy nipples everywhere. It's a double standard.

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#64 Posted by akbogert (3216 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: I'm not applying a double standard; I've already established that I talked about this merely because it's one of few books I'm currently reading and I objected to this specific case of objectification. The existence of other sexualized characters (male or female) does not justify sexualization, nor does it actively excuse this case. That said, I am a couple minutes away from posting a follow-up to this, which will at the very least address some of the points you and are (not alone in) raising.

#65 Posted by WonderHunter (121 posts) - - Show Bio

But i don't understand why Starfire should wear a space suit in first place, when she's an alien that always have been capable of traveling around the space without protection. I meant, if she want to be in the space naked, she can and nothing wrong is going to happen to her. So, why they make her wearing now a space suit? for protection? i don't think so. And again they make her and Blackfire use guns, so i will not going deep there. Don't get me wrong, i do like the costume. (It just need more purple, maybe?)

I just believe those guy are really good in make lame excuses. I agree in most things with @akbogert ... i love her and i like all the new cool things they're giving her, but personally i don't believe she's being well written in this reboot... most of the time. That's because i really don't like Lobdell, but that's another story.

But i also agree that Starfire's costumes have always being revealing and that's okay. It's part of who she is. But it's really annoying when a writer misinterprets a confident female with fanservise. The difference can be a tiny line, but it's there. As long as they respect that line, i'm okay.

@ComicMan24 said:

Kinda disagree with you here. Just because she is back to her old costume, doesn't mean that whatever progression has takes place is gone. For me it doesn't really matter what she wears but how she is written. If she is written good, does it really matter what she is wearing?

I like how you think. The problem is that thing on her breast..... i want to think like you, but it's silly and it's there, defying nature >:c it's kind of hard to ignore.

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

thes pace suit is boring and generic. i would have just tweaked her first suit to make it acceptable

#66 Posted by wessaari (622 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@wessaari said:

I dont know why everyone is so up in arms about her outfits. That how her culture is, and yes maybe it was made that way for getting eye candy, but thats how she was brought it, and for people to just now realize how she can be is just being naive. Now, for her ditching the commander suit, well she wore that when she was in the service, and wore it again because she was brought back. For her to go back to her normal clothes is completely logical, and for those who dontt like that than im sorry.

I have to agree with this. I'm not really sure about the complaining at this point. It's part of her character and her character's culture. It's how she is and who she is. It's as every part of her character as a corset is to Emma Frost or the boob window to Power Girl. It's a double standard and people are just nitpicky. If it was something like what happened to recent Power Girl with her shirt getting ripped all the time despite the redesign being hella more conserative, then people could have a gripe. As I said before, it's not like anyone cared when Luke Cage's shirt getting ripped off mid battle in a Bendis fetish fest or how Namor ran around in a kelp speed for decades with fishy nipples everywhere. It's a double standard.

funny thing about the Power Girl boob window. People were so up in arms about her NOT having a boob window, that the solicit info for issue 20 has her back in her original costume, with it saying Power Girl is going back to her "classic look"

#67 Posted by SC (12957 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

Luke Cage had his shirt constantly getting ripped off during Bendis' Avengers run. I don't see anyone complaining about that.

Its probably because in a lot of countries a man going shirtless is okay. If Cage's groin area was ripped at exposing his sexual organs, you have less skin showing, but you would probably get a lot more complaints, and the comic rating would have to reflect this as well. Also depending on the writing, such a moment could be interpreted several ways, as something very organic and likely to happen during the story, or something very artificial and unlikely, but done to pander to readers who might enjoy such a thing, or something in-between those two areas. There are additional contexts as well, is Luke Cages depiction legitimately empowering, or is it demeaning and so on. Comic fans often complain when characters are written in demeaning situations, but not when characters are in empowering situations. I have seen many fans complain when Antman was physically inside Luke Cage - because to many fans that was more demeaning to have Luke Cage have another man enter him physically than having his shirt removed (which could be argued as empowering)

Ultimately its not whats being ripped off or on that people are complaining about but the context.

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#68 Edited by Zeeguy91 (1104 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

Luke Cage had his shirt constantly getting ripped off during Bendis' Avengers run. I don't see anyone complaining about that.

Exactly. I'm not saying that people who advocate for women in comics not being degraded to eye-candy are wrong in any sense. Its just that I think they're arguing the wrong point. The definition of eye-candy implies that the person is just there to look good and doesn't contribute anything meaningful. When we're talking about Starfire, however, that's just not the case. Kory has always been an interesting and well-rounded character (going all the way back to her New Teen Titans days) who just happened to dress a little less conservatively. There's nothing that says a character can't look good and be a well-rounded, interesting, smart, and well-written character.

Plus, the argument that exposing female characters' bodies is sexist period, to me, is in itself sexist because its based on a pretty misogynistic premise: that women are supposed to be the more "modest" sex who should "know better" than to go flaunting their bodies. Meanwhile, a man going without a top and showcasing his body to women is somehow less sexual or immodest? Women should be granted the same sexual liberties as men. If a female character is portrayed in an outfit that reveals her body, I really don't mind. The only problem comes when being a sexual object is all there is to her personality.

@SC said:

Its probably because in a lot of countries a man going shirtless is okay. If Cage's groin area was ripped at exposing his sexual organs, you have less skin showing, but you would probably get a lot more complaints, and the comic rating would have to reflect this as well.

Well, it not like Starfire's (or any female character's) private parts are on display either.

#69 Posted by akbogert (3216 posts) - - Show Bio

@Zeeguy91: I'm going to point you to yet another thread (this is a trend now, heh), where the conversation has moved on: Starfire: Retrospective

Additionally, SC's point is merely that Cage without a shirt would not pass as immodest or overtly sexual in most cultures, whereas a girl in her underwear would.

#70 Posted by SC (12957 posts) - - Show Bio

@Zeeguy91 said:

@SC said:

Its probably because in a lot of countries a man going shirtless is okay. If Cage's groin area was ripped at exposing his sexual organs, you have less skin showing, but you would probably get a lot more complaints, and the comic rating would have to reflect this as well.

Well, it not like Starfire's (or any female character's) private parts are on display either.

Hello, when you edit in a reply to a poster, they don't get a notification so sorry for a late reply and if possibly as far as wanting a reply please bear that in mind. On topic, of course Starfire's private parts aren't on display, hence why the rest of my post actually spoke of context and how its actually more complicated than just some people complaining about one thing and not another. Points can be missed if people only read one sentence and assume from there.

Some people actually wouldn't care if either Luke Cage or Starfire were completely buck naked, but they might complain if Luke Cage was exploited in a demeaning way which says nothing of his actual state of dress or undress. Though the state of dress could play a part. Plenty of people have complained about Luke Cages race depiction for example which doesn't alternatively necessarily mean mentioning another characters lack of complaints concerning race means anything as far as Luke Cage because dun dun duhh it depends.

Plus in comics you can find everything, and some female and some male characters privates are on display and thats okay too, many ironically actually have superior depictions to many male and female Marvel and DC characters.

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#71 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4 said:

I can't look at Starfire anymore without thinking about how utterly ridiculous her costume is. Even her old costume before the reboot I could tolerate, but this is just... feh. She's down to what amounts to barely more than nipple pasties and a thong. Doesn't matter how fantastically she's written, I can't get past it.

please. the latest outfit looks more covered than the pre flashpoint one. Even if its an outdated cropped jacket. It looks better than the one piece bikini with holes and turtleneck.

@akbogert said:

So I've been kind of saying the same thing in a few different places now, and I figured I'd just throw together a quick blog for future reference, because this actually does irk me quite a bit. After all the good will I've been throwing towards Red Hood and the Outlaws and in particular its ability to make Starfire a lot more respectable than it looked like she would be in that infamous beach panel, I find myself almost openly mocked by the series' regression. Consider below:

The image on the left is from RHatO Issue #8, which is the last issue before the Starfire-centric arc (barring the Night of the Owls tie-in). It features the first New 52 outfit for Kori, a wonder of alien design insomuch as chest support is concerned. This outfit has been routinely criticized for being unnecessarily sexual and demeaning to the character, and is used as the argument for both believing that Starfire is just fanservice and refusing to read the book in which she's featured.

Happily, Lobdell took the Outlaws to space, threw Kori into the position of leadership she was born for, and gave her the awesome suit which is featured in the second image This outfit featured in issues #10-#14, and the image is actually a screenshot of 14's cover. It's worth noting that Starfire sports this look after leaving her ship and crew behind. It's a sexy, form-fitting suit, but it's also practical armor and affords her a respectability that was much needed and much appreciated.

Which is why it completely baffles me that in the next issue (#15), Kori is inexplicably back in her skimpy purple slut suit. She begins the issue in a bikini -- which, I guess, is because she's back on the beach -- but when she and Roy rush off to Gotham, she dons the original outfit. There's no explanation given, no practical reason why she would revert to an older, less useful attire, but there you have it: back to the old costume.

As far as I can tell, the respectable outfit is simply gone, disposed of by the artist for no apparent reason (beyond fanservice). With a new creative team coming following the conclusion of Death of the Family and Lobdell's departure, I may have hoped for that respectability to have been brought back, but based on the covers (and now I'm talking about the last image there) it seems that hope was misplaced. Admittedly, upon consideration, this new look affords a little bit more coverage than her original outfit (I erroneously suggested otherwise in a prior post). But comparatively, it is still vastly more revealing than the suit.

Frankly, this saddens me. After all the flack DC got for its portrayal of Kori in the beginning of this run, I thought the Blackfire arc did her a lot of good and actually recognized that Kori could be an awesome, likeable, sexy character without showing off her entire body. Now she's back to flaunting everything, and I can't help but see it as a major regression for the book, DC, and comics in general. Are we in this much of a rut that even progress made since the reboot needs to be retconned to make way for more T&A?

Anyway, yeah...this probably didn't really say a whole lot but I just wanted to look at the images side-by-side, revisit the issues to make sure the disappearance of her suit hadn't been explained, and, well...rant, I guess. Thanks for reading.

eh completely disagree. Who cares what she is wearing. Granted, I think the space outfit look so much better, but she is hardly sexualized with the latested outfit.

#72 Posted by akbogert (3216 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare said:

Who cares what she is wearing.

Evidently a lot of people :P

#73 Posted by CerealKiller (161 posts) - - Show Bio

am i the only one who actually disliked the space outfit?

nothing to do with the issue of sexism, i just hate the design ahaha. That colour...that blue...i dont like how it clashes with her hair. it looks like one big 80's flash dance work out leotard.

Plus i think i will just always insist on kori being in purple haha

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