Stan Lee a Fake...?

#1 Posted by TheGodofThunder (598 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, I know that stan lee co-created a bunch of characters and what not, but I've been seeing a lot of stan lee hate. Why is that? What exactly happened between stan lee and jack kirby?

#2 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheGodofThunder: People hate success.

#3 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

Jack Kirby was just an artist and penciler when he started. He was the guy that was drawing the concepts when Stan was telling him what to draw. After a few years, Kirby started his own character mostly known as the Celestial Race and other cosmic characters.

#4 Posted by Onemoreposter (4047 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

Jack Kirby was just an artist and penciler when he started. He was the guy that was drawing the concepts when Stan was telling him what to draw. After a few years, Kirby started his own character mostly known as the Celestial Race and other cosmic characters.

Stan never told Kirby "what to draw". Stan had alot of ideas for many now famous/essential marvel characters, sure. Jack is the one who designed them. Additionally, Jack helped create back stories, define powers, and plot story arcs.

@TheGodofThunder said:

Ok, I know that stan lee co-created a bunch of characters and what not, but I've been seeing a lot of stan lee hate. Why is that? What exactly happened between stan lee and jack kirby?

I haven't hated on him personally. Dude had some novel thoughts. Kirby, in his time, and definitely money wise, didn't get the respect or recognition he deserved. If people are hating on Lee in regards to Kirby, it probably has to do with that.

There is a reason we call him King Kirby. I'm focusing on Marvel because that's where he focused the largest part of his talent IMO, but that man is responsible for defining an industry.

#5 Posted by LexLuthor (101 posts) - - Show Bio

According to the Kirby documentary found on the 2007 SE of Fantastic Four, one of the biggest issues Kirby had with Marvel as well as DC, was that both companies refused to allow Kirby and other artists the artwork they would submit to be returned to them. It's been said Kirby felt Stan could have done something to sway Marvel to give back Kirby's artwork, but Stan remained quiet on the subject which caused some resentment on Kirby's part. In addition to that, much of Kirby's time with Marvel/DC also refused to acknowledge any sort of royalty/payment in regards to character's created or co-created by artists like Kirby as well.

Of course this would eventually change, but Kirby's prime years were essentially not nearly as rewarding for artists as they would later come to be.

#6 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

A lot of people don't understand "Marvel Style" and how Stan Lee worked. Stan would talk to a partner like Jack Kirby "I'm thinking of a guy, he's like a bug character...make something up". The average "script" presented to Ditko, Kirby and crew was "The Fantastic Four meets a moleman and fights him. I'll add the words later".

In Early, un-inked Jack Kirby pages (which are rare) you can see words that Kirby put to page himself, essentially creating the script and fleshing out the characters. Stan would then come in later, say what words should go in which panel, and apparently get full credit.

#7 Posted by Loki9876 (3045 posts) - - Show Bio

Stan was an important person in comics, other guys were too but Stan Lee is more famous because of his cameos and sh@zz

#8 Posted by kasino (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

they both were thieves

X-Men(Doom Patrol)/Spider-Man(Spider Woman)/Captain America(The Shield)/Punisher(Mack Bolan/Black terror)/Mr.Fantastic(plastic Man)/Cyclops(Comet) were all rip-off

try not to idolize anyone

#9 Posted by Matchstick (565 posts) - - Show Bio

@kasino said:

they both were thieves

X-Men(Doom Patrol)/Spider-Man(Spider Woman)/Captain America(The Shield)/Punisher(Mack Bolan/Black terror)/Mr.Fantastic(plastic Man)/Cyclops(Comet) were all rip-off

try not to idolize anyone

I see someone's been reading Cracked.

#10 Posted by Z3RO180 (6533 posts) - - Show Bio

@kasino:

#11 Posted by kasino (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

@Matchstick: one of my favorite sites but always knew it, how obvious could it be

if you seen it then you should have mentioned it

@Z3RO180: banned for being right? Invalid how, Stan lee a fake(state or question) either I agree or answered yes

but I'm not saying he should be hated pretty cool guy and before I was old of enough to put things together he was comic God

but as i got older not comic god but comic ambassador

#12 Posted by Z3RO180 (6533 posts) - - Show Bio

@kasino: i dount think your opinion on him being a fake and his characters being rip offs is valid and or and opinion

#13 Posted by Matchstick (565 posts) - - Show Bio

@Z3RO180 said:

@kasino: i dount think your opinion on him being a fake and his characters being rip offs is valid and or and opinion

It is valid though. Lee got a lot of credit that belonged to other people. He's basically the Flavor Flav of comics. A whole lot of hype, but not that much talent. Why do you think he hasn't produced anything noteworthy on his own?

#14 Posted by Superguy0009e (2265 posts) - - Show Bio

Someone lock this down.

Stan Lee, like it or not, had a huge influence on comics. He helped bring in numerous characters still in use today. Did he copy? I don't know. Did he do it all on his own? I don't care. The characters he help influenced me and hundreds of others. I don't care if Stan is fake because his characters are pretty damn important.

#15 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

I never said I thought Stan Lee was a fake, a fraud, or a copycat. I just pointed out that his collaborators deserve at least as much credit as he does, and that perhaps he's received a bit too much "creator" credit.

#16 Posted by Doctor!!!!! (2055 posts) - - Show Bio

The title... It just made me MAD!

#17 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm well past being upset by titles.

I'm more surprised by some of the really crappy grammar and general lack of control of the English language I see.

#18 Posted by Yai_Inn (352 posts) - - Show Bio

  

#19 Posted by kasino (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

@Z3RO180: how is it not valid? the thread ask WHY stan lee is fake, I gave a answer to why someone would consider him such.

the "and or and opinion" part i just don't understand

again he just went from comic god to me but comic ambassador, nothing wrong with that the bridge from the mainstream to the comic world

#20 Posted by TheGodofThunder (598 posts) - - Show Bio

@Doctor!!!!!: I didn't mean to make you mad, lol. I just wanted to get some clarity on the subject.

#21 Posted by stevon (1022 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crash_Recovery said:

A lot of people don't understand "Marvel Style" and how Stan Lee worked. Stan would talk to a partner like Jack Kirby "I'm thinking of a guy, he's like a bug character...make something up". The average "script" presented to Ditko, Kirby and crew was "The Fantastic Four meets a moleman and fights him. I'll add the words later".

In Early, un-inked Jack Kirby pages (which are rare) you can see words that Kirby put to page himself, essentially creating the script and fleshing out the characters. Stan would then come in later, say what words should go in which panel, and apparently get full credit.

I thought that the dialogue Kirby and the other Marvel artists added were reminders to Stan regarding what they'd talked about in plot conferences though. At least, that's what John Romita said about it.

#22 Posted by LoganX360 (125 posts) - - Show Bio

Stanlee wasnt an actual creator , he was the intern after school program kid that chilled at real comic book writers small office in newyork , he got high off of old comic book print ink & made jokes for the writers / creators . After a lot of "" Michael Jackson " they dont care about us " ...," Court Cases & Back stabbing . i.e Jimlee left marvel with the rest of the Silvestri & company . StanLee is left standing with the rights to most characters in the marvel universe . which he ended up selling to Hollywood via Disney & turned over the marvel universe to homo-topia's of DC comic universe , do the history & research & check who writes todays marvel comics & horrible art work since the year Y2k & forward .

Peace :)

#23 Posted by FuriousWeasel (90 posts) - - Show Bio

Not only did Stan create some of comics most beloved characters (Spider-Man/Daredevil/Hulk/Iron Man/Fantastic Four/Original X-Men/Avengers etc) and concepts (No stupid kid sidekicks/realistic heroes with real personalities and real life problems/shared universe etc) if it wasn't for him no writer or artists would get any recognition. Before Stan took control, writers and artists were not even credited on comic books, it was him that started printing their names and 'Bigging them up' though his soapbox. The man is an absolute legend and we all owe him a debt of gratitude for almost single-handedly creating the blueprints of the industry we all love. I seriously can't understand anyone who dislikes like him, it just doesn't make any sense.

#24 Posted by I'maDC/ImageGuy! (1648 posts) - - Show Bio

@Yai_Inn:

#25 Posted by AMP - Seeker of Lost Knowledge (1221 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheGodofThunder: Simple...Stan Lee was taking all the credit for himself...and Jack Kirby was given less respect for fame when he was working for Marvel back in the 60's.

#26 Posted by turoksonofstone (13199 posts) - - Show Bio

@Yai_Inn said:

Stan Lee was Simon and Kirbys office gopher in the Golden Age no one knows any comic history it seems.

#27 Posted by TooMuchShade (2 posts) - - Show Bio

Stan can create--he gets a lot of bad advice, i think. Note this: http://www.ign.com/articles/2000/12/12/the-stax-report-exclusive-sneak-peek-at-drifter This was his creation, lost in the dust to a lot of ideas that merely exploited his iconic status instead of giving him a vehicle to create viable new stories. This story had elements that were original in their time, some concepts to be seen later in a loose fashion in Avatar, but still a unique story that highlighted his flair for making the humanity of the characters more important than their super powers. It's true that he benefited greatly from collaboration, with Kirby, et. al., but his contributions were solid.

#28 Posted by Night Thrasher (3687 posts) - - Show Bio

Stan Lee was an awesome talent and co creator of the majority of the Marvel Universe. Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko along with Lee could be considered the Holy Trinity of the Marvel Universe. The thing is that when people want to give credit to either Ditko or Kirby especially they seem to feel that they need to discredit Stan Lee for some reason. Without Lee, Ditko or Kirby are not as important to comics as they are now and vice versa. The three of them had a symbiotic relationship that elevated the medium to places were six of the top 50 grossing movies of all time are based on their work.

#29 Posted by EliCrofoot (42 posts) - - Show Bio

This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

Comment and Save

Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Comic Vine users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.