As we all know, the suit did not amp Peter's strength. But if it chose to, how strong do you guys speculate he would be?

The suit made him faster and stronger allowing him to take on Rhino pretty easily.

" @SlimJ87D: I doubt it.  At most it would double his already impressive power set. "

" @SlimJ87D: Venom could only lift 11 tons. Spiderman is 10. Venom is basically identical to Spiderman. I would assume the symbiote would add only so much to Parker. Mac Gargan Venom was a joke. He barely posed a threat. He just became a cannibal. I believe he was only given the strength boost to differentiate him from Eddie Brock and yet Brock still was the superior Venom... or it was just bad writing. "

Ok, in that case, Spiderman should be around the 30-35 ton range with the symbiote. Spiderman's strength is always inconsistant with each writer. He Spiderman was never about strength, at least that's not how I saw/see him.

OK I'm guilty too of being a product of all the spidey cartoons as well. If it didn't juice him up in the comics, what was his incentive for using it? Was it purely an addictive quality of the symbiote?

@Dayvid3: I guess so!

@SlimJ87D said:

@Deranged Midget said:

" @SlimJ87D: Venom could only lift 11 tons. Spiderman is 10. Venom is basically identical to Spiderman. I would assume the symbiote would add only so much to Parker. Mac Gargan Venom was a joke. He barely posed a threat. He just became a cannibal. I believe he was only given the strength boost to differentiate him from Eddie Brock and yet Brock still was the superior Venom... or it was just bad writing. "

Venom is actually 20+ tons.

I mean he lifts a light Tank from the front away from the center of gravity which is even heavier.

Peter has done the same thing

Gallery

@Dayvid3: It was also because of how useful the suit was. He could put on his costume really quickly, and just switch into his street clothes. Also it made it's own webs, which means he wouldn't have to carry web shooters and worry about them running out. The suit even let him hold his keys and camera in it without adding to the bulk of the suit, thus solving the problem of pockets. and carrying things in a web pouch.

@Shawnbaby: I can't remember but wasn't Peter starting to get amped from the Captain Universe power and then later received the full power? Regardless I think that's the same writer that had him flip a vehicle over witha flick of his finger and lift a train. You can say this writer might have written him out of character as a Tank weighs more than what Peter was rated at at the moment.

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby: I can't remember but wasn't Peter starting to get amped from the Captain Universe power and then later received the full power?

Nope..All the Cosmic Spidey/Captain Universe Stuff didn't happen till a few months after that.

@Shawnbaby: IC. I don't know if it's acceptable to say Spider-man can lift 25+ tons (was away from center of gravity). I remember that whole story line giving him some beefy feats.

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby: IC. I don't know if it's acceptable to say Spider-man can lift 25+ tons (was away from center of gravity). I remember that whole story line giving him some beefy feats.

It's not the only time Spider-Man has gone Above and Beyond his supposed 10 ton limit. But yeah...he had a few other good feats in that storyline..for example

He's had plenty of other feats that are harder to exactly quantify...but they certainly seem to indicate he's pushing well past the alleged 10 ton mark.

Landing a small plane:

Gallery

He says here that he's stuck under something that not even Thor or Hulk could move. Usually, I don't like that kind of anecdotal type evidence...but judging from the amount of debris he's stuck under and the relative lack of any real leverage....It's an impressive showing. I'm not going to say it puts him anywhere near the Class 100 range but it seems to be considerably more than 10 tons.

Gallery

And there's the infamous Building Feat. Often people misrepresent the feat to suggest he's supporting the entire building. That's not really the case....he's filling in for a single support beam...but It's still a hugely impressive feat that is beyond what most would consider his strength range

Gallery

Now with all these feats it's clear he's pushing himself way beyond his normal limits and it clearly takes a toll on him...so I wouldn't suggest this is in his comfort zone. I've always kind of considred the 10 ton area to be his comfortable range...but his full potential is much higher.

@Deranged Midget said:

@azza04: Indeed, although I thought Spectacular Spiderman was on par or maybe even a little better. I am severely ticked off they cancelled it.

As we all are!

@Shawnbaby: The lifting of the building I debunked in the debunking thread. I remember this one too.

But I guess he was just supporting it and it began to break apart and he exploded at the right time to make it break.

But I think my original point awhile back was that Venom is just stronger than Spider-man due to Spider-man saying so during their fights.

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby: The lifting of the building I debunked in the debunking thread. I remember this one too.

But I guess he was just supporting it and it began to break apart and he exploded at the right time to make it break.

But I think my original point awhile back was that Venom is just stronger than Spider-man due to Spider-man saying so during their fights.

Venom is without a doubt stronger than Spider-Man....but they are close in Strength. The Symbiote passed on the proportionate strength of a spider deal to Eddie and Brock was proportionately Larger than Parker. Gargan was stronger because he already had enhanced strength before getting the symbiote. Technically Flash should have inherited that strength as well...but with the drugs nerfing the symbiote the only time we see Thompson even approach those levels is when he "Vulks out".

The feat with She-hulk there can also be explained by the fact that Peter had better positioning and Leverage when he was underneath it. Easier to push than to pull kind of deal. Even so...She-hulk is a 75 tonner so for her to need leverage at all means that plug had to be well beyond Parker's supposed 10 ton limit. THe fact that it shattered when he was pushing his way out doesn't diminish the feat much

As I said about the building...he didn't lift the building...he temporarily took the place of a support beam ...but it's still an impressive feat of strength and durability.

To answer the original question...If Peter were to bond with symbiote now and it were to be off the drugs...he should probably have the Gargan-Level Strength. A case could probably be made to suggest that he would be even stronger...but that would mean that the Symbiote would be giving him back his own powers thereby giving Peter a "Double-Stack" of Spider-Strength...I don't think it works that way though.

@Shawnbaby: About that plug lifting thing: When Spidey and She-Hulk were lifting together there was some sort of magnetic force pulling it closed, or some other nonsense. Once Spidey was trapped the force was gone, because the force that was pulling the plug down had left. So he didn't really prove himself stronger than She-Hulk in that scene.

@VeganDiet said:

@Shawnbaby: About that plug lifting thing: When Spidey and She-Hulk were lifting together there was some sort of magnetic force pulling it closed, or some other nonsense. Once Spidey was trapped the force was gone, because the force that was pulling the plug down had left. So he didn't really prove himself stronger than She-Hulk in that scene.

If you look at my statement I never once claimed that Spider-Man was stronger than She-Hulk. What i said was that he was able to lift it solo because he had better leverage than they had when they were lifting it together (as well as much more incentive)

@Shawnbaby: True. I didn't mean to imply that that's what you meant. My bad. I was just, kinda, trying to explain how Spidey was able to do that.

@Shawnbaby: I'm not sure how close Spider-man and Venom are but I don't think it's close. They started off close with Venom's first bio rating him at 11 tons, but then Venom became 15 tons around the Maximum Carnage era and then they rated him 15 to 25 tons a little later in his solo career and other appearances.

At least at 15 tons, I can already say he's %50 stronger than Spider-man which is quite a bit.

Older:

Newer

I cannot find the 15 tons rating at this time. But I have seen it years ago.

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby: I'm not sure how close Spider-man and Venom are but I don't think it's close. They started off close with Venom's first bio rating him at 11 tons, but then Venom became 15 tons around the Maximum Carnage era and then they rated him 15 to 25 tons a little later in his solo career and other appearances.

At least at 15 tons, I can already say he's %50 stronger than Spider-man which is quite a bit.

Older:

Newer

I cannot find the 15 tons rating at this time. But I have seen it years ago.

That's only if you take Marvel's Power Grid at Face value...which you really shouldn't...it's incredibly flawed....look at Ultimate Spider-Man's Grid.

http://marvel.com/universe/Spider-Man_(Ultimate)

According to that Ultimate Spider-Man (Parker) is a Class 100 Super Genius Light Speeder that has mastered every known fighting style.

@Shawnbaby: Shawn, there "official online" power grid is not done by Marvel themselves. Even though it says official, it isn't unless it's proven with a source. It's also like a wikipedia page done by high ranking users on the site who aren't reliable and don't source where they got their information. If you look in the handbooks it's different, far different.

Source: Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Vol 4 #16

Which at the time makes sense as he had no fight training and was like a nerdy high school kid with powers.

Venom is a 11 tonner, and that picture of venom lifting a tank is from the 1994 spiderman series.

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby: I'm not sure how close Spider-man and Venom are but I don't think it's close. They started off close with Venom's first bio rating him at 11 tons, but then Venom became 15 tons around the Maximum Carnage era and then they rated him 15 to 25 tons a little later in his solo career and other appearances.

At least at 15 tons, I can already say he's %50 stronger than Spider-man which is quite a bit.

Older:

Newer

I cannot find the 15 tons rating at this time. But I have seen it years ago.

I didn't look at these very close the first time....but what you have here is Anti-Venom and then Venom...yet you claim the Anti-Venom is the Older scan....

@Shawnbaby: i didn't look very closely either. But they were taken from my Eddie Brock scan collection and I must have selected the wrong one. I am at work right now. You can take either take my word for it or not, there is a bio that lists him 11 tons, then 15 tons and you can see the one there at 25.

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby: i didn't look very closely either. But they were taken from my Eddie Brock scan collection and I must have selected the wrong one. I am at work right now. You can take either take my word for it or not, there is a bio that lists him 11 tons, then 15 tons and you can see the one there at 25.

I believe that it's what is listed in the Handbooks. I don't value the handbooks as an authoritative source though. How do you explain the power jump from 11-15-25 tons?

@Shawnbaby: The reasoning behind the jumps leave my clueless to be honest.

Could Brock just have worked out more and then the symbiote started getting that strength increase from manipulating mass? It beats me.

But from Peter and Eddie's fights, if Brock was only %10 stronger, i don't think they would go the way they did when Brock overpowered Peter physically. %10 is pretty minimal.

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby: The reasoning behind the jumps leave my clueless to be honest.

Could Brock just have worked out more and then the symbiote started getting that strength increase from manipulating mass? It beats me.

But from Peter and Eddie's fights, if Brock was only %10 stronger, i don't think they would go the way they did when Brock overpowered Peter physically. %10 is pretty minimal.

10% can make a big difference really. And 250% should make a much bigger difference than it ever did.

@Shawnbaby: Also, from my memory I think Cletus kassidy got an upgrade from 50 tons to 70 tons (unless if I'm mixing this up with Toxin).

I can find his 50 ton one right now.

I could be wrong though as the Masters Collection handbooks do a range. But strangely enough on other characters they list spot on what they can lift, like 35 tons, etc.

There's no real conclusion for us here. I'll try and find the bio that is not from the masters handbook collection that lists him specifically at 15 tons.

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby: Also, from my memory I think Cletus kassidy got an upgrade from 50 tons to 70 tons (unless if I'm mixing this up with Toxin).

I can find his 50 ton one right now.

As I said...I don't find the Handbooks to be an authoritative source...simply because of how much characters can vary from year to year. You posting multiple entries for different characters that shows a vast change in stats only supports my argument.

Do you believe that everything in the handbook is 100% true and cannot be argued against?

@Shawnbaby:

No, I don't think my posts supports your argument at all. If the handbooks were changing dozens of times chronologically with Venom at 15 then 10 then 25 then yes that would support your argument. But they're updated when a character has either gained new powers, have been depowered or gets a new power, etc.

When Cletus first got the Carnage symbiote, he was rated at 50. When he came back in Maximum carnage, he seemed to be stronger and harder to deal with than even before and he was rated at 70 tons then.

Compare Spider-man's first fight with Venom and his later fights, or when Venom met Scarlet Spider-man. He laughed off his punches and pretty much smacked him around or punched him sky high. He didn't even move when Spider-man laid a punch right ot his face.

Then you Venom going taking hits from Juggernaut and Hulk later on.

Because the stats usually reflect what happens concurrently in comics, I think they are an excellent source for us to understand and gauge a power. Should we abide by them %100? No. But if someone goes and tells you Spider-man can lift 100 tons because he flicked a truck over with his finger and they do multiple calculations to prove so (number and example is completely arbitrary).

How can you prove that person wrong? They have a pretty damn valid argument to say Spider-man is a 100 tonner, does his most up to date databook entry reflect this? Well his official handbook entry puts him at around 10 tons, that is 20,000lbs lifting strength. So I would say "No, Spider-man can't be a 100 tonner, it's out of character. That event is most likely PIS."

Spider-man's Handbook entry was updated when he got organic webbing and then updated again when he defeated Morlun and was rated at around 20 tons. Then he was updated again after one more day and was put back to 10 tons because those powers were retconned away.

I think handbooks are updated for a reason, because it reflects that character changing or having upgrades. I think handbooks are also important to allow us to gauge what is PIS and what isn't. They also allow us to make a good comparison between characters. They are reliable in that sense.

You may feel they are not reliable because you looked at the ones on Marvel.com

"Do you believe that everything in the handbook is 100% true and cannot be argued against?"

No, I don't believe so. I don't believe anyone can be rated at a 7 fighting ability like Wolverine because clearly he hasn't studied Ku'n Lun martial arts like Danny Rand has.

So how I feel about handbooks, they're a good reference point to jump from or to.

We are straying away from the topic at hand though. It was already proven that Spider-man with the black symbiote did not get a strength boost. And it's a fact that Venom is stronger than Spider-man punching him sky high, while Spider-man is at most times completely incapable of harming him physically with his own fist.

if you and I can't agree on how reliable handbook entries are then at least we both agreed on the conclusion of the thread which honestly ended months almost 2 years ago.

@SlimJ87D: My problem with the handbooks is that they can be incredibly vague or misleading and sometimes totally inaccurate.

Let's look at the Power Grid explantions:

Now lets see a few characters

Kang and Mantis

Gallery

Speed 7: Warp Speed: Transcending light speed. So. Mantis and Kang are faster than Light according to this.

Now lets look at Wolverine.

Fighting Ability 7: master of all forms of combat. Now Wolverine is a good fighter and is skilled at many different forms but he's certainly not a master of every single one.

Durability 4: Regenerative. True Wolverine has a healing factor...but that's kind of downplaying his completely unbreakable skeletal structure and the fact that he has regenerated after being stripped down to the bone

Speed 2: Normal. What does that even mean? Wolverine is clearly faster than the Average human being...but when the next rank is: Superhuman peak range 700 MPH its clear Wolverine doesn't belong there either...so what exactly can we determine about his speed? Somewhere in between Average human to somewhere below 700 mph. Thanks guys...really helpful now i know any examples of Wolverine Running over 700 mph are totally PIS...

Strength 4: Superhuman 800lbs to 25 ton range. There are literally dozens of characters that fall in this range. Again, How useful is this information? How can we determine how strong he is?

How about Mystique?

Here's her Entry from OHOTMU Women of Marvel 2005

Int: 3

Strength: 2

Speed: 2

Durability: 4

Energy Projection:1

Fighting Skills: 4

Now Here's her entry from OHOTMU X-Men 2005 (The same year)

Int: 4

Strength:2

Speed: 2

Durability: 4

Energy Projection: 1

Fighting Skills: 5

Same Character, Same Year, Different Stats. How can you explain that?

Daredevil, Punisher, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, and Black Panther:

Gallery

Daredevil is not even Peak Human and only ranks a 5 in FightingAbility

Punisher is also below Peak human...but somehow merits a 6 in Fighting Ability

Moon Knight is Peak Human...but he only ranks a 4 in Fighting Ability

Nick Fury also below Peak...but like Punisher Merits a 6 in Fighting Ability

Black Panther gets Peak Human Status...but only a 5 in Fighting Ability.

Does all of that track with what you know about these characters?

Would you really consider Punisher and Nick Fury to be better fighters than BP and Daredevil?

EDIT:

One last thing

I suppose Captain America is only Peak Human as well. It says so in the Handbook so it must be true right?

Why do people keep saying Spidey is back to 10 tons? Was their an update in the handbook or is everyone just assuming it. Just because he lost his organic webbing doesn't mean he should have lost his strength or speed upgrades. All his other extra powers were just that... extra powers, why should losing those affect his main powers like strength or speed?

Gallery

Handbooks are full of BS. Just look at what some of these say. Rhino could lift "only" 20 tons? Scorpion's reaction and running speed are only 2x normal (same for the Lizard)? If any of this were true then they "should" have no chance even touching Spidey. And yet they do.

Spider-Man and especially Venom's strength are inconsistent at best. But when not really exerting himself, Spidey is in the 10-15 ton range usually. Venom varries wildly based on emotional state and mass acquired. But when bound with Eddie, I'd put him once average in the 50-60 ton range. Strong enough you lift up an good sized tank. Carnage is about 80 ton, and rhino up there? ... he fights the hulk on regular occasion. Way more than 20 ton.

In the 80s the symbiote didn't enhance his strength, later stories such as Superior Spider-Man kind of contradict it by saying it does.

@jashro44 Yo, so as of the latest issues of Venomized, it has been confirmed that the symbiote does boost Spider-man's strength along with anyone else that is bonded to one.