Oh My God! You lost HALF your readers!

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#1 Edited by DanSlott (203 posts) - - Show Bio

Hey there.

You probably haven't seen me around the boards for a bit, because I've been pulling back more and more from commenting on message boards... and reading message boards. Most comic vine readers are used to seeing me here arguing with other posters about sales. And usually only about sales of the book. And there's a reason for that:

They're facts. They're not opinions. They're indicators with how well the book is doing with the readers, retailers, distributors, and the company. And while they are open to some interpretation (for those who understand the basics of what's going on), they were very much in the "win column" for the current team. The book's (purposefully) a very divisive one-- a direction that goes outside of the comfort zone of what a Spider-Man book should normally be. Was it going to have its detractors? You bet.

The frustrating thing for me was that even though (to people who understand how these numbers work) the book was doing great, some of those detractors started using the numbers in either knowing-or-unknowingly deceptive ways.

The biggest offender of that was the claim "You've lost half your readers!"

Here's how some people latched on to that one: There was a 43.7% drop from the orders of Superior Spider-Man #1 and Superior Spider-Man #2.

Nooooo!

Well, here's the thing... That's how it's worked for years. First issues spike high (collectors who just want #1's, variants, old readers giving the new status quo a shot, and a zillion other reasons). Then second issues take a hit of anywhere from 60% to 40%. That's par for the course. No, seriously. That's how it works. Then there's another drop from the second to third issue. Then the from the third to the fourth. And usually by the fourth to fifth issue (or month), the book usually finds its "level." From that point on, pretty much all books are where they are and experience gradual attrition of sales until the next big storyline or hyped event, where they spike up a little, and then gradually slide down again. This is the nature of all mainstream American comic books. Outside of some rare outliers, that's the pattern.

Not kidding. That's the way it is.

Here, these are the 1st issue to 2nd issue sales of all the recent Marvel titles that launched north of 80,000 copies:

10/12 Uncanny Avengers #1 - 303,722

11/12 Uncanny Avengers #2 - 114,257 (-62.4%)

*

05/13 X-Men v4 #1 - 183,297

06/13 X-Men v4 #2 - 73,542 ( -59.9%)

*

03/13 Guardians of the Galaxy v3 #1 - 217,993

04/13 Guardians of the Galaxy v3 #2 - 88,184 ( -59.5%)

*

03/13 Wolverine v5 #1 - 117,669

04/13 Wolverine v5 #2 - 57,165 ( -51.4%)

*

11/12 Fantastic Four v5 #1 - 114,532

12/12 Fantastic Four v5 #2 - 58,421 ( -49.0%)

*

12/12 Avengers v5 #1 - 192,952

12/12 Avengers v5 #2 - 99,028 ( -48.7%)

*

11/12 Captain America v8 #1 - 123,667

12/12 Captain America v8 #2 - 64,377 ( -47.9%)

*

02/13 Uncanny X-Men v3 #1 - 177,463

02/13 Uncanny X-Men v3 #2 - 94,615 ( -46.7%)

*

09/13 Mighty Avengers v2 #1 - 101,921

10/13 Mighty Avengers v2 #2 - 54,862 (-46.2%)

*

11/12 Indestructible Hulk #1 - 118,200

12/12 Indestructible Hulk #2 - 63,653 ( -46.1%)

*

02/13 Secret Avengers v2 #1 - 85,267

03/13 Secret Avengers v2 #2 - 46,419 ( -45.6%)

*

11/12 All-New X-Men #1 - 181,693

11/12 All-New X-Men #2 - 100,983 (-44.4%)

*

01/13 Superior #1 - 209,944

01/13 Superior #2 - 118,104 ( -43.7%)

*

01/13 Savage Wolverine #1 - 102,530

02/13 Savage Wolverine #2 - 58,254 (-43.2%)

*

02/13 Nova v5 #1 - 80,857

03/13 Nova v5 #2 - 46,725 (-42.2%)

*

11/12 Thor v5 #1 - 110,443

11/12 Thor v5 #2 - 65,533 ( -40.7%)

*

11/12 Deadpool v4 #1 - 127,977

11/12 Deadpool v4 #2 - 76,445 ( -40.3%)

*

11/12 Iron Man v6 #1 - 116,529

11/12 Iron Man v6 #2 - 72,902 ( -37.4%)

*

12/12 Cable & X-Force #1 - 90,334

12/12 Cable & X-Force #2 - 57,719 (-36.1%)

*

01/13 New Avengers v3 #1 - 116,280

01/13 New Avengers v3 #2 - 79,433 ( -31.7%)

Did you catch where Superior Spider-Man was? Pretty close to the center of the pack. If Superior "lost half of its readers" from #1 to #2, then... so did pretty much every book in the Marvel stable. But none of them did. Because that would be silly. (Doubly silly for Superior since it's a twice monthly book and retailers would have put in their orders for #2 at the same time as #1... before "readers" ever had a chance to see that darn thing. But that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.) Again, what I'm trying to show here is that THIS is the trend of ALL major books that launch in this market place-- and it's been that way for YEARS.

To suddenly stumble upon this phenomena while looking at the sales for any ONE title-- and, in a vacuum, declare that THAT book is failing because of this regular trend-- is either knowingly-or-unknowingly deceptive. But, hey, NOW you do know. And according to 80's cartoons, that's half the battle, right? (OH MY GOD! HALF THE BATTLE?! THE BATTLE IS FAILING!!!!) :-P

Side note: I always point this out, even when the numbers skew in my favor... These numbers that fans like to use AREN'T the actual numbers. They're Diamond's ESTIMATES based on retailer ORDERS. They do NOT equal sales of the book. They do NOT reflect the entire market-- just the Direct Market (books distributed to brick-and-mortar Local Comic Shops). They do not take into account digital sales, foreign sales, subscriptions, collections, and lots of other additional venues. And even with all that... they're off ALL the time. And they're pretty much always on the low side. The books of all major publishers usually have actual numbers that are higher than these. (Just thought I'd get that out of the way. Carry on.)

#2 Posted by SOG7dc (6713 posts) - - Show Bio

@danslott:

Do your thing and ignore the haters. Inevitably Peter will be back and Supes will marry Lois and all will be right when we're all complaining that nothing is ever different.....ahhh comics! We love you

#3 Edited by Squalleon (2990 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually thought the sales of SSM are pretty good? Weird considering how many people complain about it(me included).

#4 Posted by SoA (4592 posts) - - Show Bio

here i was waiting for a rant from the recent issue, for the spidey fans: keep ur puny parker in spectacular..., i just hope superior continues on with miguel o'hara

for the love-lois fans: its inevitable . clark has already given lois some glances with diana fully aware , clark and lois might try going in for a kiss or diana catches them kissing and leads to the mother of all freak out cat fights with clark trying to play referee, after a semi-devastating fight WW flies off and clark stays with lois . you're welcome.

#5 Posted by Imagine_Man15 (1777 posts) - - Show Bio

@danslott: Thanks for outlining this clearly. Now instead of having to explain it to people over and over again, I can just send them a link.

In any case, keep on ignoring the detractors. I don't think that Superior is a perfect book and I do have some problems with it, but overall, I've enjoyed the ride more than any 616 Spider-Man story in recent memory, and I commend you for having the balls to go through with it and sticking it out through the hate flood.

#6 Posted by Z3RO180 (5942 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: Supes does not need to be married.

#7 Posted by SOG7dc (6713 posts) - - Show Bio

@z3ro180:

I just used the word. I'm not making a comment about whether or not he should be married

#8 Edited by gridde (91 posts) - - Show Bio

It's good to know that comic sales are doing well but I don't totally get why Slott is so vehement about making sure everyone knows how well SSM is doing.

I mean, yeah it's important to be successful and make money, but it'd be nice to see him be more concerned about the book's quality and maybe even fan reaction rather than purely numbers. I've been enjoying the book, but posts like this make it feel like some of the big moments in the series so far were done purely to be controversial and snag a few more sales instead of for the sake of good story-telling.

Not to mention it seems a little petty. If the book's doing well, why would you feel it necessary to go on forums and convince everyone that it's doing well? Just ignore the detractors and focus on writing a great story (one that just makes lots of money if that is indeed your primary motivator).

#9 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (27270 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait, is... is this a bate thread? Shouldn't this be locked?

#10 Posted by AdwePL (32 posts) - - Show Bio

And according to 80's cartoons, that's half the battle, right? (OH MY GOD! HALF THE BATTLE?! THE BATTLE IS FAILING!!!!) :-P
What do You mean by that quote ? :-P
Anyway Peter is coming back so there is no need to dig the whole superior-haters thing IMO. :P

#11 Edited by comedy_brosUSA (581 posts) - - Show Bio

@danslott said:

Hey there.

You probably haven't seen me around the boards for a bit, because I've been pulling back more and more from commenting on message boards... and reading message boards. Most comic vine readers are used to seeing me here arguing with other posters about sales. And usually only about sales of the book. And there's a reason for that:

They're facts. They're not opinions. They're indicators with how well the book is doing with the readers, retailers, distributors, and the company. And while they are open to some interpretation (for those who understand the basics of what's going on), they were very much in the "win column" for the current team. The book's (purposefully) a very divisive one-- a direction that goes outside of the comfort zone of what a Spider-Man book should normally be. Was it going to have its detractors? You bet.

The frustrating thing for me was that even though (to people who understand how these numbers work) the book was doing great, some of those detractors started using the numbers in either knowing-or-unknowingly deceptive ways.

The biggest offender of that was the claim "You've lost half your readers!"

Here's how some people latched on to that one: There was a 43.7% drop from the orders of Superior Spider-Man #1 and Superior Spider-Man #2.

Nooooo!

Well, here's the thing... That's how it's worked for years. First issues spike high (collectors who just want #1's, variants, old readers giving the new status quo a shot, and a zillion other reasons). Then second issues take a hit of anywhere from 60% to 40%. That's par for the course. No, seriously. That's how it works. Then there's another drop from the second to third issue. Then the from the third to the fourth. And usually by the fourth to fifth issue (or month), the book usually finds its "level." From that point on, pretty much all books are where they are and experience gradual attrition of sales until the next big storyline or hyped event, where they spike up a little, and then gradually slide down again. This is the nature of all mainstream American comic books. Outside of some rare outliers, that's the pattern.

Not kidding. That's the way it is.

Here, these are the 1st issue to 2nd issue sales of all the recent Marvel titles that launched north of 80,000 copies:

10/12 Uncanny Avengers #1 - 303,722

11/12 Uncanny Avengers #2 - 114,257 (-62.4%)

*

05/13 X-Men v4 #1 - 183,297

06/13 X-Men v4 #2 - 73,542 ( -59.9%)

*

03/13 Guardians of the Galaxy v3 #1 - 217,993

04/13 Guardians of the Galaxy v3 #2 - 88,184 ( -59.5%)

*

03/13 Wolverine v5 #1 - 117,669

04/13 Wolverine v5 #2 - 57,165 ( -51.4%)

*

11/12 Fantastic Four v5 #1 - 114,532

12/12 Fantastic Four v5 #2 - 58,421 ( -49.0%)

*

12/12 Avengers v5 #1 - 192,952

12/12 Avengers v5 #2 - 99,028 ( -48.7%)

*

11/12 Captain America v8 #1 - 123,667

12/12 Captain America v8 #2 - 64,377 ( -47.9%)

*

02/13 Uncanny X-Men v3 #1 - 177,463

02/13 Uncanny X-Men v3 #2 - 94,615 ( -46.7%)

*

09/13 Mighty Avengers v2 #1 - 101,921

10/13 Mighty Avengers v2 #2 - 54,862 (-46.2%)

*

11/12 Indestructible Hulk #1 - 118,200

12/12 Indestructible Hulk #2 - 63,653 ( -46.1%)

*

02/13 Secret Avengers v2 #1 - 85,267

03/13 Secret Avengers v2 #2 - 46,419 ( -45.6%)

*

11/12 All-New X-Men #1 - 181,693

11/12 All-New X-Men #2 - 100,983 (-44.4%)

*

01/13 Superior #1 - 209,944

01/13 Superior #2 - 118,104 ( -43.7%)

*

01/13 Savage Wolverine #1 - 102,530

02/13 Savage Wolverine #2 - 58,254 (-43.2%)

*

02/13 Nova v5 #1 - 80,857

03/13 Nova v5 #2 - 46,725 (-42.2%)

*

11/12 Thor v5 #1 - 110,443

11/12 Thor v5 #2 - 65,533 ( -40.7%)

*

11/12 Deadpool v4 #1 - 127,977

11/12 Deadpool v4 #2 - 76,445 ( -40.3%)

*

11/12 Iron Man v6 #1 - 116,529

11/12 Iron Man v6 #2 - 72,902 ( -37.4%)

*

12/12 Cable & X-Force #1 - 90,334

12/12 Cable & X-Force #2 - 57,719 (-36.1%)

*

01/13 New Avengers v3 #1 - 116,280

01/13 New Avengers v3 #2 - 79,433 ( -31.7%)

Did you catch where Superior Spider-Man was? Pretty close to the center of the pack. If Superior "lost half of its readers" from #1 to #2, then... so did pretty much every book in the Marvel stable. But none of them did. Because that would be silly. (Doubly silly for Superior since it's a twice monthly book and retailers would have put in their orders for #2 at the same time as #1... before "readers" ever had a chance to see that darn thing. But that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.) Again, what I'm trying to show here is that THIS is the trend of ALL major books that launch in this market place-- and it's been that way for YEARS.

To suddenly stumble upon this phenomena while looking at the sales for any ONE title-- and, in a vacuum, declare that THAT book is failing because of this regular trend-- is either knowingly-or-unknowingly deceptive. But, hey, NOW you do know. And according to 80's cartoons, that's half the battle, right? (OH MY GOD! HALF THE BATTLE?! THE BATTLE IS FAILING!!!!) :-P

Side note: I always point this out, even when the numbers skew in my favor... These numbers that fans like to use AREN'T the actual numbers. They're Diamond's ESTIMATES based on retailer ORDERS. They do NOT equal sales of the book. They do NOT reflect the entire market-- just the Direct Market (books distributed to brick-and-mortar Local Comic Shops). They do not take into account digital sales, foreign sales, subscriptions, collections, and lots of other additional venues. And even with all that... they're off ALL the time. And they're pretty much always on the low side. The books of all major publishers usually have actual numbers that are higher than these. (Just thought I'd get that out of the way. Carry on.)

The fact that you need to get on a forum and explain why your book has been doing well in sales, just shows that you are insecure about everything. if you were a confident writer you would not have to do this. we know about Superior's sales compared to other books. and we also know Peter's coming back this year, so you don't have to tell us about " the sales being in the middle with the other comic sales" and stuff like that. I'm not trying to be rude, but I feel like your putting this on US now because of the sales of superior.

#12 Posted by MaccyD (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

@gridde: As he said it's harder for trolls to argue with facts, not opinions.

@danslott-I'm reading Superior on Unlimited at the moment and I'm enjoying it. Where between #14 and the current issue would you recommend as a jumping-on point? I don't want to spend that amount of money catching up and I know so far that Goblin Nation has a build-up in previous issues. What would you recommend?

#13 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (9783 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait, is... is this a bate thread? Shouldn't this be locked?

My guess is it will be eventually. He's been warned before about stuff like this IIRC.

#14 Edited by DanSlott (203 posts) - - Show Bio

@gridde said:

It's good to know that comic sales are doing well but I don't totally get why Slott is so vehement about making sure everyone knows how well SSM is doing.

I mean, yeah it's important to be successful and make money, but it'd be nice to see him be more concerned about the book's quality...

One: It's silly to think that I work on a books like Superior, Amazing, and Silver Surfer and that that I'm NOT concerned about the books' quality. C'mon. But I'm not going to come onto a board and argue ABOUT something as subjective as quality. Stories, art, and merit are SUBJECTIVE and in the eye of the beholder. I'm not going to get into internet back-and-forth over that. That'd be silly. I care very passionately about putting out the best book possible.

But the sales are OBJECTIVE and something that's easy to talk about in terms of black & white. And when I see people who aren't knowledgeable in how things work in comics-- who turn and twist numbers that ACTUALLY show we're doing well into bizarre BS charts and graphs to make it look like the EXACT OPPOSITE is true... that can get frustrating.

Back during BND, there was an internet troll who ran around the boards putting up FAKE charts to MISREPRESENT how the book was doing. He was taking 3 data points-- THROWING OUT THE HIGHEST SET-- averaging the LOWEST two, and making it look like THOSE were are sales. He was tracking those numbers against previous sales of Amazing Spider-Man... back when the book was getting a year long boost from CIVIL WAR crossovers. It was the craziest chart-- and through deceptive means it was making it look like what was (then) one of Marvel's most profitable lines was doing poorly.

These charts made the rounds to the point where the previous writer, JMS, used them on his facebook page as a jab at the current books. Later, when he found out how inaccurate they were, JMS quickly pulled them down-- but not before getting into a pretty ugly (and public) online argument with the then current editor of the book.

These things do get out there. And they do cause a lot of misinformation to circulate.

If someone was spreading misinformation about YOUR work and a product you and your coworkers worked EXTREMELY hard over-- wouldn't YOU want to set the record straight? ESPECIALLY if your work was actually succeeding and doing well?

@comedy_brosusa said:

The fact that you need to get on a forum and explain why your book has been doing well in sales, just shows that you are insecure about everything. if you were a confident writer you would not have to do this.

I'm damn confident in the book that me and my team are putting out. I'm very proud of it.

I'm SO proud of it, that I take offense when someone out there is spreading lies and misinformation about it. And I have NO problem with smacking that down.

Would YOU be okay with someone lying about how well YOUR work was doing?

#15 Posted by fodigg (6094 posts) - - Show Bio

A good overview for a concept many are unfamiliar with.

#16 Edited by cameron83 (6416 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@danslott:

Do your thing and ignore the haters. Inevitably Peter will be back and Supes will marry Lois and all will be right when we're all complaining that nothing is ever different.....ahhh comics! We love you

this,in the end,is how I feel.

Often enough,I noticed that whenever there is any any any any any change whatsoever to characters,that fans complain,as if it's permanent.

#17 Edited by Lvenger (15982 posts) - - Show Bio

I wouldn't care if Superior Spider-Man was the best selling comic book of all time. The extent of what you've done to the book has tarnished my memory of my favourite Marvel character and third favourite comic book character after Batman and Superman. Plus you've ruined one of my favourite villains by sticking him in a situation where it's impossible not to hate what he's doing. So stick to your sales figures, they change nothing of the outbreak of criticism nor the valid facts that your writing of this series has disrespected the very core of Spider-Man's character and rivals One More Day and Sin's Past in its level of criticism amongst comic book fans. I hope you can do better when you bring Peter back but I was beginning to have problems post Ends of the Earth anyway so that'll be a mountain to climb as it is.

#18 Posted by Mitrageist (7148 posts) - - Show Bio

Maybe it's because I don't frequent the Superior-dedicated threads here much, but are people still actually saying this? Because it seems to me like something most people are over/corrected on by now and it honestly does make this thread feel redundant/beating a dead horse (which, trust me, I know comic book readers specialize in but I wouldn't expect it from a writer). I mean, we've even had a few not-Dan Slott related threads that pointed out how well Superior's sales have been.

I understand the reasoning. It's just that I'd rather see new, positive Spidey news from one of my favorite Spider-man writers as of late.

#19 Posted by PeppeyHare (4310 posts) - - Show Bio

@mitran: Agree with everything you said

#20 Posted by Xwraith (10844 posts) - - Show Bio

People still think that "#1" issues are going to be valuable?

#21 Posted by Fallschirmjager (11517 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

I wouldn't care if Superior Spider-Man was the best selling comic book of all time. The extent of what you've done to the book has tarnished my memory of my favourite Marvel character and third favourite comic book character after Batman and Superman. Plus you've ruined one of my favourite villains by sticking him in a situation where it's impossible not to hate what he's doing. So stick to your sales figures, they change nothing of the outbreak of criticism nor the valid facts that your writing of this series has disrespected the very core of Spider-Man's character and rivals One More Day and Sin's Past in its level of criticism amongst comic book fans.

qft.

#22 Posted by DanSlott (203 posts) - - Show Bio

@mitran said:

Maybe it's because I don't frequent the Superior-dedicated threads here much, but are people still actually saying this?

Yes.

#23 Edited by Mitrageist (7148 posts) - - Show Bio

@danslott said:

@mitran said:

Maybe it's because I don't frequent the Superior-dedicated threads here much, but are people still actually saying this?

Yes.

Okay then, at this point they aren't going to change their minds because they don't want to. The correct information and interpretation of that info are readily available thanks to you and others. I'd still rather see positive and new news than the same old arguments.

#24 Posted by bigtewell (690 posts) - - Show Bio

@danslott: Love superior and i wish it would stay. Your argument makes sense and its all facts not opinions so its hard to debate. My only complaint is that you seem to only cater to your haters. Why not come on here and have fun and chat with your many fans? Im sure all of your fans would love to hear your opinions on their threads and would feel proud to have a great writer comment on what they have to say. Personally id love to hear your thoughts on this threadhttp://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/do-you-guys-miss-the-underwear-on-comic-book-chara-1531145/?page=2#js-message-85

@xwraith said:

People still think that "#1" issues are going to be valuable?

batman #1 from the new 52 currently sells for around 50 dollars. While its not that much its still a nice profit

#25 Posted by DanSlott (203 posts) - - Show Bio
@lvenger said:

I wouldn't care if Superior Spider-Man was the best selling comic book of all time. The extent of what you've done to the book has tarnished my memory of my favourite Marvel character and third favourite comic book character after Batman and Superman. Plus you've ruined one of my favourite villains by sticking him in a situation where it's impossible not to hate what he's doing. So stick to your sales figures, they change nothing of the outbreak of criticism nor the valid facts that your writing of this series has disrespected the very core of Spider-Man's character and rivals One More Day and Sin's Past in its level of criticism amongst comic book fans.

You left out the part where I ran over your foot, pushed your grandmother down a flight of stairs, and shot your dog.

I have DISRESPECTED the very CORE of Spider-Man!

Glad it's a "valid fact".

I should put that on my CV. :-)

Fortunately... the "outbreak of criticism" hasn't been all bad. In fact, the critical acclaim (*gasp*-- surely I can't be using that word right...) the book's received was enough to place it on a lot of "Best of 2013" lists. Go figure.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/01/06/the-seventeen-best-of-the-best-of-the-comics-for-2013-list/

qft.

You do know what the "t" stands for, right?

I think you should switch it to qfvf. Quoted For "Valid Facts".

:-P

#26 Posted by Wolverine08 (26301 posts) - - Show Bio

These threads are funny.

#27 Edited by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
@lvenger said:

I wouldn't care if Superior Spider-Man was the best selling comic book of all time. The extent of what you've done to the book has tarnished my memory of my favourite Marvel character and third favourite comic book character after Batman and Superman. Plus you've ruined one of my favourite villains by sticking him in a situation where it's impossible not to hate what he's doing. So stick to your sales figures, they change nothing of the outbreak of criticism nor the valid facts that your writing of this series has disrespected the very core of Spider-Man's character and rivals One More Day and Sin's Past in its level of criticism amongst comic book fans.

Although I disagree with Superior Spider-Man ruining Spider-Man as a character and I also hate Otto Octavius I do agree with the fact that although Superior was doing well sales wise and Spider-Man will probably always do well, how much people are buying it doesn't actually disprove how much people hate it or don't enjoy it. I know this because I own Bendis' entire run on New Avengers & Dark Avengers and hated most of it. I simply gave what I thought was the best writer for that series the benefit of the doubt, hoping that when certain company wide events slowed down that the book would return to it's glory. In fact I own alot of the Avengers books that came out in the last 5-8 years although events starting with Secret Invasion, many of those books were completely ruined by events. Secret Invasion is the only event aside from Civil War that I have all the tie-ins for...I HATED SECRET INVASION! Like when I used to watch Dragonball Z I was tricked into thinking that I only had to endure the bad\slow parts for a short time and that eventually it would get better. NOPE! Never happened. SI built up suspense and became completely trash long before it ended.

I said all that to say, if Spider-Man is one of my favorite characters (which he is) then I may only be reading Superior to find out what's going on with one of my favorites. The Avengers were my favorite superhero team..wasn't until Hickman started writing New Avengers & Avengers that I can say that without being sad inside. I read all of those Avengers titles because it starts many of my favorite characters and this is my favorite team. How can I, as a fan choose to miss such a massive chunk of those characters appearances? If I had chose to wait out Bendis' run and not read it, do you have any idea how much I would have missed? I'm sure the assertion that will come with this is how many readers probably aren't like me, but I just being around comic vine for as long as I have there are plenty of books we talk about negatively here but admit to reading. It's kind of hard to have an opinion on something and ignore it at the same time.

So Dan may be right that he didn't actually lose readers because of his writing in Superior, but just because people are buying it..doesn't mean they like it. Sales aren't a full proof indicator of how the book is doing with readers.

Moderator
#29 Edited by Fallschirmjager (11517 posts) - - Show Bio

@danslott: For someone who believes his book is doing so well critically and financially why do you care if people don't like it then? Do you really need a thread pounding your chest saying "nu-uh" to all the people who don't like it? Because this whole thread comes off as nothing but wanting attention (which is the whole reason I posted in the first place, to antagonize someone who is clearly wanting it)

Not everyone likes your work, get over it. You've taken one of my very favorite characters, put a Villain's mind in his body, pranced him around as a "superior" version and destroyed almost all of the relationships Peter has spent years building. And you're surprised that anyone would have the audacity to criticize you?

Will this all be eventually healed? Maybe. But don't think for a second everyone likes your work. And if you can't accept the fact that not everyone loves it, then you might want to just stop writing or at the very least stop reading internet forums, because nothing is universally seen as one way.

I don't really care what the sales are. There are books that don't even sell 10,000 units monthly they're are some of the best quality in all of comics right now. And I don't care what critics say either or what list your book is on either, because they're nothing but opinions of other people. I'm fully capable of making my own opinion and I don't need a 3rd party choice to tell me if something is good or not.

#30 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (21276 posts) - - Show Bio

LOL.

#31 Edited by danhimself (21898 posts) - - Show Bio

@danslott: Love superior and i wish it would stay. Your argument makes sense and its all facts not opinions so its hard to debate. My only complaint is that you seem to only cater to your haters. Why not come on here and have fun and chat with your many fans? Im sure all of your fans would love to hear your opinions on their threads and would feel proud to have a great writer comment on what they have to say. Personally id love to hear your thoughts on this threadhttp://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/do-you-guys-miss-the-underwear-on-comic-book-chara-1531145/?page=2#js-message-85

pretty much this....I have also loved Superior Spider-man...there really hasn't been an issue that I haven't enjoyed...but Slott won't talk to the people who have been supporting the title and telling everyone how much they've loved it....I've seen several people ask him questions and I've seen him say that he's glad to talk to fans several times but I've never once seen him actually talk to his fans...he only addresses the people who don't like his work

#32 Posted by Avenger85 (1500 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh mah gawd. DAN SLOTT himself made this thread. WTF lol !?

Hey Dan, I like the concept, but it's works as a story arc better than a full-fledged ongoing.

Online
#33 Edited by NorrinBoltagonPrime21 (4668 posts) - - Show Bio

I understand what you're trying to do, but you will never get your point across with haters. Haters gonna hate

#34 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (27270 posts) - - Show Bio
#35 Edited by danhimself (21898 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh mah gawd. DAN SLOTT himself made this thread. WTF lol !?

Hey Dan, I like the concept, but it's works as a story arc better than a full-fledged ongoing.

it is only a story arc and it's ending in April...it was only ever a 30+ issue story arc that Marvel wanted to draw attention to by giving it it's own series

#36 Posted by Deranged Midget (17598 posts) - - Show Bio

Why is everyone taking this so seriously? Listen, Peter/Spider-Man is arguably my favourite comic-book character of all time but holy cow, when I read some of the comments about how a writer did "this or that" to a certain character, I can't help but feel the reactions are a little overblown to be honest. It's definitely not something ANYONE should get so worked up over that they are forced to criticize each other on the internet in order to prove some sense of I don't know... entitlement?

Especially in this case, we all knew Ock taking over Peter's body was temporary. We all knew Peter was coming back and instead of either just sticking out the ride or dropping the book, we chose to bash it at any chance given? I understand the feeling of seeing a character you've adored for years being put through the worst imaginable situation but man, it's not worth all the negativity.

Moderator
#37 Edited by bigtewell (690 posts) - - Show Bio

@bigtewell said:

@danslott: Love superior and i wish it would stay. Your argument makes sense and its all facts not opinions so its hard to debate. My only complaint is that you seem to only cater to your haters. Why not come on here and have fun and chat with your many fans? Im sure all of your fans would love to hear your opinions on their threads and would feel proud to have a great writer comment on what they have to say. Personally id love to hear your thoughts on this threadhttp://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/do-you-guys-miss-the-underwear-on-comic-book-chara-1531145/?page=2#js-message-85

pretty much this....I have also loved Superior Spider-man...there really hasn't been an issue that I haven't enjoyed...but Slott won't talk to the people who have been supporting the title and telling everyone how much they've loved it....I've seen several people ask him questions and I've seen him say that he's glad to talk to fans several times but I've never once seen him actually talk to his fans...he only addresses the people who don't like his work

exactly. i mean no matter what haters are going to hate and there will always be haters. I think everyone would be happier if we ignored the haters and just had nice fun conversations with the people that enjoy the book. Like personally i would like to hear where slott would have taken otto if peter didnt come back so soon. Like what wouldve been next? would otto have gotten his own villains?

#38 Edited by DanSlott (203 posts) - - Show Bio
@vance_astro said:

So Dan may be right that he didn't actually lose readers because of his writing in Superior, but just because people are buying it..doesn't mean they like it. Sales aren't a full proof indicator of how the book is doing with readers.

It's not really a question of "may be right."

And we didn't lose readers. We actually gained readers. At least 20,000 additional readers.

True, sales don't equate that people like something. But retaining an additional 20K of readership after a new direction in the story-- and doing that twice a month-- over the sustained period of a year, is an EXCEPTIONAL indicator that we're putting out a product that readers are following-- and continuing to follow.

Here's a chart that's frequently used here on ComicVine:

Outside of spikes for the controversial issue #9, where we brought in cult 90's character Spidey 2099 in #17, and the dip when Superior fought the obscure 90's villain Stunner in #21, it's easy to see that there's a standard "zone" for this title-- a level that it found after 4 months-- like pretty much ALL mainstream books do. Outside of standard industry attrition, sales rarely seem to vary by a percentage point or two. (And some of that can be explained away by variant covers-- or heavy months where lots of product are coming out. Variables that when viewed industry wide affect all of the main books equally.) Basically? The book has a level/range...

And that range is about 20K higher than it was on the ASM run for the past few years.

3 minutes on photoshop and 2 colored lines. Amazing, right? :-)

Look, I know this has been a divisive storyline. I'm not here to say that it hasn't been.

I'm not really here to talk about the book at all. I'm just poking my head in to present some very basic, easy to grasp facts. Because as someone who DOES take great pride in the work that the creative team has been putting out on this title, and someone who is very appreciative of the overwhelming fan support I've been shown in person in 2013, it does get frustrating at times to see how people try to use the internet to spread misinformation about how the book is actually performing.

That's all.

I get when I come in here I'm going to see a lot of the same "faces" with some of the same snarkiness and internet anger. And that's cool too. Look, in 2013 I've gone to 8 conventions, done over 15 signings, in multiple cities across America and in 5 countries around the world. I've spent multiple days in Mexico City and London where there were solid lines for over 8 hours of people having me sign Superior Spider-Man comics-- where person after person would tell me their favorite parts and ask tons of questions about the title. I have literally met tens of thousands of HAPPY fans in person. I'm not insecure about how well the book's doing and whether or not enough people are out there enjoying it. I KNOW there are. What gets under my skin, plain and simple, is people trying to distort the information that actually goes IN OUR FAVOR, and spin it in the most insane ways to make it SOUND like we're doing poorly. I'm sure if someone was knowingly-or-unknowingly using the internet to spread false information about YOUR work, that you would feel fine in stepping in and correcting those people as well.

Anyway...

Like I said at the top, I am trying to disengage from going on message boards and reading the comments. Just wanted to clear up some very basic misconceptions on the way out.

Peace.

#39 Posted by sesquipedalophobe (4637 posts) - - Show Bio

@danslott: I honestly don't get why you have to justify yourself to a group of people who kept buying Superior Spider-Man regardless of how awful they thought it was. You could have replaced Peter Parker with one the cast members of Pretty Little Liars and they would have eaten it up like ramen with sriracha.

#40 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (27270 posts) - - Show Bio

@danslott: on a one man crusade to make the internet "more informed". Yea good luck with that Dan.

#41 Posted by danhimself (21898 posts) - - Show Bio

@danslott said:
@vance_astro said:

So Dan may be right that he didn't actually lose readers because of his writing in Superior, but just because people are buying it..doesn't mean they like it. Sales aren't a full proof indicator of how the book is doing with readers.

It's not really a question of "may be right."

And we didn't lose readers. We actually gained readers. At least 20,000 additional readers.

True, sales don't equate that people like something. But retaining an additional 20K of readership after a new direction in the story-- and doing that twice a month-- over the sustained period of a year, is an EXCEPTIONAL indicator that we're putting out a product that readers are following-- and continuing to follow.

Here's a chart that's frequently used here on ComicVine:

Outside of spikes for the controversial issue #9, where we brought in cult 90's character Spidey 2099 in #17, and the dip when Superior fought the obscure 90's villain Stunner in #21, it's easy to see that there's a standard "zone" for this title-- a level that it found after 4 months-- like pretty much ALL mainstream books do. Outside of standard industry attrition, sales rarely seem to vary by a percentage point or two. (And some of that can be explained away by variant covers-- or heavy months where lots of product are coming out. Variables that when viewed industry wide affect all of the main books equally.) Basically? The book has a level/range...

And that range is about 20K higher than it was on the ASM run for the past few years.

3 minutes on photoshop and 2 colored lines. Amazing, right? :-)

Look, I know this has been a divisive storyline. I'm not here to say that it hasn't been.

I'm not really here to talk about the book at all. I'm just poking my head in to present some very basic, easy to grasp facts. Because as someone who DOES take great pride in the work that the creative team has been putting out on this title, and someone who is very appreciative of the overwhelming fan support I've been shown in person in 2013, it does get frustrating at times to see how people try to use the internet to spread misinformation about how the book is actually performing.

That's all.

I get when I come in here I'm going to see a lot of the same "faces" with some of the same snarkiness and internet anger. And that's cool too. Look, in 2013 I've gone to 8 conventions, done over 15 signings, in multiple cities across America and in 5 countries around the world. I've spent multiple days in Mexico City and London where there solid lines for over 8 hours of people having me sign Superior Spider-Man comics-- where person and person would tell me their favorite parts and ask question after question. I have literally met tens of thousands of HAPPY fans in person. I'm not insecure about how well the book's doing and whether or not enough people are out there enjoying it. I KNOW there are. What gets under my skin, plain and simple, is people trying to distort the information that actually goes IN OUR FAVOR, and spin it in the most insane ways to make it SOUND like we're doing poorly. I'm sure if someone was knowingly-or-unknowingly using the internet to spread false information about YOUR work, you would feel fine in stepping in and correcting those people as well.

Anyway...

Like I said at the top, I am trying to disengage from going on message boards and reading the comments. Just wanted to clear up some very basic misconceptions on the way out.

Peace.

see you went to all this trouble to do all this but you still won't talk to the actual fans of the book....why not just ignore the people who aren't liking it and actually talk to your fans?

#42 Posted by Dm225 (289 posts) - - Show Bio

@danslott:

I absolutely love your run on Superior Spider-Man, I've bought every issues since number one came out, and I can't wait for your new Silver Surfer series coming up in March. However I must ask, how low is your self esteem that you CONSTANTLY feel the need to come onto the INTERNET and validate your success to a bunch of people you've never even met? You are a child and Marvel should have put you on a tighter leash months ago. The fact that their pr department let's you run around and say the things you do is astonoshing to me. Do you not notice that NO OTHER WRITER does the things you do on these forums, twitter, and other various internet sites? That's because they are adults and they understand that the people on the internet represent a very small fraction of the majority's opinion and find themselves ABOVE coming onto the internet and correcting them. Grow up.

#43 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (9783 posts) - - Show Bio

Not even Peter Parker can take this thread seriously.

#44 Posted by DanSlott (203 posts) - - Show Bio

see you went to all this trouble to do all this but you still won't talk to the actual fans of the book....why not just ignore the people who aren't liking it and actually talk to your fans?

I do.

In a magical land called Twitter. :-)

I block and ignore rude people. I engage with fans. And I talk about Doctor Who a little too much.

I provide links to scripts and other Easter Eggs.

Give sneak peeks to upcoming issues.

And... I really do talk about Doctor Who too much.

That's @danslott (verified w/ a blue check and everything) over on Twitter.

Huzzah!

(For example, recently on Twitter myself, Mike Allred, and editor, Tom Brevoort, showed THIS sneak peek of a double page spread from SILVER SURFER #1!)

Hmm... The inks are dropping out here for some reason... You should head over to Twitter to get a better look. ;-)

#45 Posted by danhimself (21898 posts) - - Show Bio

@danslott said:
@danhimself said:

see you went to all this trouble to do all this but you still won't talk to the actual fans of the book....why not just ignore the people who aren't liking it and actually talk to your fans?

I do.

In a magical land called Twitter. :-)

I block and ignore rude people. I engage with fans. And I talk about Doctor Who a little too much.

I provide links to scripts and other Easter Eggs.

Give sneak peeks to upcoming issues.

And... I really do talk about Doctor Who too much.

That's @danslott (verified w/ a blue check and everything) over on Twitter.

Huzzah!

(For example, recently on Twitter myself, Mike Allred, and editor, Tom Brevoort, showed THIS sneak peek of a double page spread from SILVER SURFER #1!)

Hmm... The inks are dropping out here for some reason... You should head over to Twitter to get a better look. ;-)

so why only come here to talk to the haters?

#46 Edited by CaptainHoopla (602 posts) - - Show Bio

@danslott: Dan, how dare you come here and flaunt numbers when you are ending one of the best comic books of the last year? Seriously, I know it's impossible to win with all the fans, but just want to say I've loved Superior. It's been a fun and fascinating story. I'm looking forward to Amazing now and hope you've got an equally great story for Peter's return and the fate of Doc Ock. Also really excited for Silver Surfer. Keep doing what you do and know many fans have loved it. Huge thanks to you and Marvel for having the balls to really mix things up.

#47 Posted by comedy_brosUSA (581 posts) - - Show Bio

@danslott said:

@gridde said:

It's good to know that comic sales are doing well but I don't totally get why Slott is so vehement about making sure everyone knows how well SSM is doing.

I mean, yeah it's important to be successful and make money, but it'd be nice to see him be more concerned about the book's quality...

One: It's silly to think that I work on a books like Superior, Amazing, and Silver Surfer and that that I'm NOT concerned about the books' quality. C'mon. But I'm not going to come onto a board and argue ABOUT something as subjective as quality. Stories, art, and merit are SUBJECTIVE and in the eye of the beholder. I'm not going to get into internet back-and-forth over that. That'd be silly. I care very passionately about putting out the best book possible.

But the sales are OBJECTIVE and something that's easy to talk about in terms of black & white. And when I see people who aren't knowledgeable in how things work in comics-- who turn and twist numbers that ACTUALLY show we're doing well into bizarre BS charts and graphs to make it look like the EXACT OPPOSITE is true... that can get frustrating.

Back during BND, there was an internet troll who ran around the boards putting up FAKE charts to MISREPRESENT how the book was doing. He was taking 3 data points-- THROWING OUT THE HIGHEST SET-- averaging the LOWEST two, and making it look like THOSE were are sales. He was tracking those numbers against previous sales of Amazing Spider-Man... back when the book was getting a year long boost from CIVIL WAR crossovers. It was the craziest chart-- and through deceptive means it was making it look like what was (then) one of Marvel's most profitable lines was doing poorly.

These charts made the rounds to the point where the previous writer, JMS, used them on his facebook page as a jab at the current books. Later, when he found out how inaccurate they were, JMS quickly pulled them down-- but not before getting into a pretty ugly (and public) online argument with the then current editor of the book.

These things do get out there. And they do cause a lot of misinformation to circulate.

If someone was spreading misinformation about YOUR work and a product you and your coworkers worked EXTREMELY hard over-- wouldn't YOU want to set the record straight? ESPECIALLY if your work was actually succeeding and doing well?

@comedy_brosusa said:

The fact that you need to get on a forum and explain why your book has been doing well in sales, just shows that you are insecure about everything. if you were a confident writer you would not have to do this.

I'm damn confident in the book that me and my team are putting out. I'm very proud of it.

I'm SO proud of it, that I take offense when someone out there is spreading lies and misinformation about it. And I have NO problem with smacking that down.

Would YOU be okay with someone lying about how well YOUR work was doing?

ok. so I'm sorry if I came across as rude because that was not my intention. I'm glad you care about your book because I know writers who don't. I'm glad your excited because well, superior got a LOT of media buzz, but all of that aside, I don't think it's necessary to start comparing your book sales to other books and somewhat" brag. if you really care about making quality comic books and saying "y'know what, this comic is good. if my fans like it, and critics like it, then who cares about beating an Avengers title" then that feels like you genuinely care bout the title AND the character, rather than saying " ok so my book is in the ranks with this book." even if it's intentional or not, it still comes across like it's all about the sales no matter what. I'm not complaining, I'm honestly just suggesting that the way you address certain things sets people off the wrong way intended.

#48 Edited by DanSlott (203 posts) - - Show Bio
@comedy_brosusa said:

ok. so I'm sorry if I came across as rude because that was not my intention. I'm glad you care about your book because I know writers who don't. I'm glad your excited because well, superior got a LOT of media buzz, but all of that aside, I don't think it's necessary to start comparing your book sales to other books and somewhat" brag.

Not really comparing Superior Spider-Man's sales to others in that original post.

I was just using those numbers to illustrate that a 60%-40% drops after a 1st issue spike is THE NORM.

I have nothing but respect for all the titles cited. My point was that NONE of those 1st issue percentage drops mean squat for ANY of them.

Though I have FREQUENTLY seen angry posters here on Comic Vine attempt to use that industry standard and single out Superior Spider-Man's drop from it's 1st issue to its 2nd as some kind of measure that the book had lost "half of its readership". And that's crazy. Worse. It's knowingly-or-unknowingly deceptive. If the last thread I take part in over at Comic Vine finally puts that little myth to rest for ALL BOOKS, then that's a good thing.

#49 Posted by comedy_brosUSA (581 posts) - - Show Bio

@danslott said:
@comedy_brosusa said:

ok. so I'm sorry if I came across as rude because that was not my intention. I'm glad you care about your book because I know writers who don't. I'm glad your excited because well, superior got a LOT of media buzz, but all of that aside, I don't think it's necessary to start comparing your book sales to other books and somewhat" brag.

Not really comparing Superior Spider-Man's sales to others in that original post.

I was just using those numbers to illustrate that a 60%-40% drops after a 1st issue spike is THE NORM.

I have nothing but respect for all the titles cited. My point was that NONE of those 1st issue percentage drops mean squat for ANY of them.

Though I have FREQUENTLY seen angry posters here on Comic Vine attempt to use that industry standard and single out Superior Spider-Man's drop from it's 1st issue to its 2nd as some kind of measure that the book had lost "half of its readership". And that's crazy. Worse. It's knowingly-or-unknowingly deceptive. If the last thread I take part in over at Comic Vine finally puts that little myth to rest for ALL BOOKS, then that's a good thing.

ok sir, I understand what you are saying now. I just perceived it like you were rubbing in people's faces your sales. btw i'm really excited about SSM 26. so good job for getting people pumped about the next issue.

#50 Posted by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio

@danslott said:

It's not really a question of "may be right."

And we didn't lose readers. We actually gained readers. At least 20,000 additional readers.

True, sales don't equate that people like something. But retaining an additional 20K of readership after a new direction in the story-- and doing that twice a month-- over the sustained period of a year, is an EXCEPTIONAL indicator that we're putting out a product that readers are following-- and continuing to follow.

Here's a chart that's frequently used here on ComicVine:

Outside of spikes for the controversial issue #9, where we brought in cult 90's character Spidey 2099 in #17, and the dip when Superior fought the obscure 90's villain Stunner in #21, it's easy to see that there's a standard "zone" for this title-- a level that it found after 4 months-- like pretty much ALL mainstream books do. Outside of standard industry attrition, sales rarely seem to vary by a percentage point or two. (And some of that can be explained away by variant covers-- or heavy months where lots of product are coming out. Variables that when viewed industry wide affect all of the main books equally.) Basically? The book has a level/range...

And that range is about 20K higher than it was on the ASM run for the past few years.

3 minutes on photoshop and 2 colored lines. Amazing, right? :-)

Look, I know this has been a divisive storyline. I'm not here to say that it hasn't been.

I'm not really here to talk about the book at all. I'm just poking my head in to present some very basic, easy to grasp facts. Because as someone who DOES take great pride in the work that the creative team has been putting out on this title, and someone who is very appreciative of the overwhelming fan support I've been shown in person in 2013, it does get frustrating at times to see how people try to use the internet to spread misinformation about how the book is actually performing.

That's all.

I get when I come in here I'm going to see a lot of the same "faces" with some of the same snarkiness and internet anger. And that's cool too. Look, in 2013 I've gone to 8 conventions, done over 15 signings, in multiple cities across America and in 5 countries around the world. I've spent multiple days in Mexico City and London where there were solid lines for over 8 hours of people having me sign Superior Spider-Man comics-- where person after person would tell me their favorite parts and ask tons of questions about the title. I have literally met tens of thousands of HAPPY fans in person. I'm not insecure about how well the book's doing and whether or not enough people are out there enjoying it. I KNOW there are. What gets under my skin, plain and simple, is people trying to distort the information that actually goes IN OUR FAVOR, and spin it in the most insane ways to make it SOUND like we're doing poorly. I'm sure if someone was knowingly-or-unknowingly using the internet to spread false information about YOUR work, that you would feel fine in stepping in and correcting those people as well.

Anyway...

Like I said at the top, I am trying to disengage from going on message boards and reading the comments. Just wanted to clear up some very basic misconceptions on the way out.

Peace.

Nowhere did I make the argument that you lost readers. The "may be right" in that sentence was to say you were right about one thing but not necessarily about something else. You specifically say in the OP that sales are an indicator of how well the book is doing with fans. That to me says that you equate quantity with quality, no? I was only making the point that people DO read things they don't necessarily like.

You say that your problem is simply that people are distorting the facts right? But if the facts are in your favor, I fail to see how this thread makes any sense. If Superior Spider-Man is doing so well, doesn't that suggest that people are buying this regardless of what false information has been stated about it? Are you worried that people spinning the truth will tarnish your legacy as a writer? I'm not trying to diss you anything, i'm just trying to see where you're coming from.

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