Don't panic everyone!

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#1 Posted by Sufferthorn (1734 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America died.....twice.

Norman Osborn died.

Johnny Storm died.

Reed Richards died.

Daredevil had Matt Murdocks death faked.

Dr Doom died(Like that happened)

Superman died

Batman died

and Green Lantern is gay.

Point i'm trying to make is....these things aren't permanent. Peter Parker will always be Spider-man, the only reason Marvel is doing this is to sell more comics....we all know people are going to read the Superior Spider-Man now, even if they hate that Peter is "dead". As if anything in 616 was ever dead.

The minute Superior-Spider-man gets boring(which it will) and stops selling comics, Peter Parker will come back from the dead. It's simple. Anyway, it should be interesting to see how this is headed, at the very least.

Stay hopeful Marvelites.

#2 Posted by JonSmith (3990 posts) - - Show Bio

You're forgetting one little thing: None of those guys save Osborn died near Peter Parker. Let's take a look at the good guys who've died near Pete.

Gwen Stacy.

Captain Stacy.

Uncle Ben.

Ben Reilly.

Gee, none of them are running around. When Spidey gets a good guy killed, he does it right. They stay dead. Ben Reilly was even a superhero in his own right. And look at that: All still dead.

#3 Edited by Sufferthorn (1734 posts) - - Show Bio

@JonSmith:

True.....but you know there's no way they're gonna keep Peter Parker dead....

and Uncle Ben doesn't count......and Gwen STILL came back...twice...or three times.

and the Clone Saga was horrible.

#4 Posted by JonSmith (3990 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sufferthorn said:

@JonSmith:

True.....but you know there's no way they're gonna keep Peter Parker dead....

and Uncle Ben doesn't count......and Gwen STILL came back...twice...or three times.

and the Clone Saga was horrible.

Wasn't each Gwen that came back a clone or something? And promptly vanished before doing anything of importance.

As for the Clone Saga, I'll agree. But I liked Ben Reilly.

If by 'not keep Parker dead', you mean 'resurrect him', they can't. Why? Pete's not dead, physically. There's no way to distinguish between Ock and Pete, and even if there were, Pete's mind is dead. So at beast, all we're going to get Pete's memories and mind gradually taking over Ock.

#5 Posted by Sufferthorn (1734 posts) - - Show Bio

@JonSmith:

You're nuts, you seriously can't see all the loose ends and possibilities for Peter to come back?

I think you're maybe a bit too struck with grief to see this from a respective plot-sense point of view.

#6 Posted by JonSmith (3990 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sufferthorn said:

@JonSmith:

You're nuts, you seriously can't see all the loose ends and possibilities for Peter to come back?

I think you're maybe a bit too struck with grief to see this from a respective plot-sense point of view.

I can see them just fine. While my grasp of sanity is tenuous, at best, I do not appreciate my mental stability being questioned for following previous evidence to a logical conclusion. I've already thought of a number of ways for the Peter Parker we knew to once more become Spider-Man, but you're not hearing me. Basically, the Peter Parker we know is DEAD. His mind is GONE. What we've got left is something with both his memories and Otto's. Everything that Otto does during this time, supposing Pete returns to his body, will be remembered through Ock's eyes.

Take Ock's treatment of MJ for example. Would Peter have addressed her as 'woman', and been impatient with her? No. Would Pete treat his comrades at Horizon like dolts and insulted them? No. All of these memories will be Peter's when he returns. Where Peter might have made one decision in these situations, Ock will make another. So even if Peter returns, and Ock is rejected from Pete's body, it won't be the same Peter Parker we had before. Peter won't magically come back from the dead, go back in time, and fix all this so Ock never possessed him.

Peter's mind, or soul, or whatever is dead. Gone. Kaput. His body is alive, with all the memories thereof. Get it now?

#7 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sufferthorn said:

Captain America died.....twice.

Norman Osborn died.

Johnny Storm died.

Reed Richards died.

Daredevil had Matt Murdocks death faked.

Dr Doom died(Like that happened)

Superman died

Batman died

and Green Lantern is gay.

Are you really comparing death to "made gay"?

#8 Posted by animehunter (1819 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#9 Posted by ngroove (321 posts) - - Show Bio

Not panicking, because haven't read new Spidey for months, months anyways.

However, am disappointed, how SPIDEY'S FIFTIETH ANNIVERSARY was "celebrated"

Shame, I was hoping all would made right, perhaps even re-picking Spidey up, had 700 went on an infinitismally greater note, and if the real Pete gets back with Mary Jane, if not the marriage restored to continuity yet.

#10 Posted by Xorion (439 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually liked the idea of ock being the new siderman. It seems interesting to see things from peter's side. SO I'm not panicking I grabbed my towel and waiting

#11 Posted by Lightburst (163 posts) - - Show Bio

Im i the only one that feels like Spider-man not being Peter Parker is like Wolverine not being...well Wolverine?

#12 Posted by Phaedrusgr (1668 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lightburst: Well said, well said...It seems that it's very fashionable talking about passing the mantle these days. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against replacing a hero for a while, but not for too long and most definitely not permanently. Some people can't understand that the mantle is the symbol of one's personality. It's not just some cloth to hide one's face.

#13 Posted by Dark_Vengeance_ (14587 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@Sufferthorn said:

Captain America died.....twice.

Norman Osborn died.

Johnny Storm died.

Reed Richards died.

Daredevil had Matt Murdocks death faked.

Dr Doom died(Like that happened)

Superman died

Batman died

and Green Lantern is gay.

Are you really comparing death to "made gay"?

I'll translate, by gay he means lame or stupid.

#14 Posted by Earth616 (174 posts) - - Show Bio

@ngroove said:

However, am disappointed, how SPIDEY'S FIFTIETH ANNIVERSARY was "celebrated"

Happy birthday!! Oh by the way, your drink was spiked, you should be dead in a few minutes! Oh no! There must be something I can do! Must eat salt!!!! Oh, we took that away too!!! Oh!! Well, let me see my family as I die!!!! He's dead!!!!!

#15 Posted by tomlikesfries (4629 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sufferthorn said:

Captain America died.....twice.

Norman Osborn died.

Johnny Storm died.

Reed Richards died.

Daredevil had Matt Murdocks death faked.

Dr Doom died(Like that happened)

Superman died

Batman died

and Green Lantern is gay.

Point i'm trying to make is....these things aren't permanent. Peter Parker will always be Spider-man, the only reason Marvel is doing this is to sell more comics....we all know people are going to read the Superior Spider-Man now, even if they hate that Peter is "dead". As if anything in 616 was ever dead.

The minute Superior-Spider-man gets boring(which it will) and stops selling comics, Peter Parker will come back from the dead. It's simple. Anyway, it should be interesting to see how this is headed, at the very least.

Stay hopeful Marvelites.

Batman doesn't count.

#16 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkKnightDetective said:

@fodigg said:

@Sufferthorn said:

Captain America died.....twice.

Norman Osborn died.

Johnny Storm died.

Reed Richards died.

Daredevil had Matt Murdocks death faked.

Dr Doom died(Like that happened)

Superman died

Batman died

and Green Lantern is gay.

Are you really comparing death to "made gay"?

I'll translate, by gay he means lame or stupid.

Well, okay. But they did make Alan Scott gay in the reboot and if they think that's akin to killing off a character I'm not sure what to even say about that.

#17 Posted by Dark_Vengeance_ (14587 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: I think he was talking about Hal Jordan, I completly forgot about Alan Scott.

#18 Posted by Smart_Dork_Dude (2616 posts) - - Show Bio

@JonSmith: Ain't that the truth. Really if you think about it, Spider-Man's books are kinda a blood bath when it comes to main supporting characters dying. There's also Jean DeWolff. Actually I think he's lost more supporting characters than Batman.

As for the topic at hand, I've calmed down a lot since the news. And after actually reading Spider-Man 700, the first Spider-Man comic I've bought myself since One More Day(Just borrowed from my friends for everything else just on principle of OMD), and I gotta say this was very well done. Am I still mad that the world at large doesn't know Peter Parker is dead? Yes. Do I think Ock will be bearable as Spider-Man? I've decided to give it a shot against my better judgement to find out, but I'm prepared to drop it at a moments notice.

#19 Edited by Sufferthorn (1734 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg:

It was a joke.

But you know a character has gone downhill when he is used to bring out an overly politically correct character *Cough* Miles Morales *Cough*.

A Gay, Mexican/Arab/Muslim/African American? HMMMMMMM, WHERE HAVE WE SEEN THIS BEFORE? And don't deny that Green Lantern is getting this type of abuse because of his sucky movie, it's all too coincidential.

I mean...they couldn't have at least made a seperate superhero to prove how they are all-for diversity?

Anyway....

Yeah, I really think Slotts delusional if he thinks he can make Doc Ock the permanent Spider-Man and have people just accept that in the long-term. Nobody will EVER remember Spider-Man as Otto Octavius, ever. No matter how much he tries to push it. I think he's fanatically trying to make his "mark" on the comic-book world by changing Spidey forever, and it's just not gonna work out.

If I can't have Peter Parker in the Ultimate Universe OR the 616 Universe. Forget it.

#20 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sufferthorn said:

A Gay, Mexican/Arab/Muslim/African American? HMMMMMMM, WHERE HAVE WE SEEN THIS BEFORE?

I don't know, but not nearly enough in comics.

#21 Posted by Sufferthorn (1734 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg:

Dude....something so blatantly obvious like that has no permanent place in story. It has to be organic, this is.....Forced.

#22 Posted by EscGamer (113 posts) - - Show Bio

Technically Batman (Bruce Wayne) never died sooo.......yeahhhh... (-_-) doesn't count

#23 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sufferthorn said:

@fodigg:

Dude....something so blatantly obvious like that has no permanent place in story. It has to be organic, this is.....Forced.

You're right, they should have to sneak in such "offensive" characters.

#24 Posted by joshmightbe (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

I hope with all my heart that Superior Spiderman doesn't sell one goddamned issue its whole run and Marvel takes back this retarded idea and sincerely if Marvel doesn't bring back Peter then I will never read another Marvel comic again.

#25 Edited by Sufferthorn (1734 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg:

Not sayin that....i'm saying that obvious politically correct characters are....obvious. For the SAKE of being politically correct rather than a storyline. Miles Morales didn't offend me because of his ethnicity for example, but really...? C,mon, it's obvious.

@joshmightbe said:

I hope with all my heart that Superior Spiderman doesn't sell one goddamned issue its whole run and Marvel takes back this retarded idea and sincerely if Marvel doesn't bring back Peter then I will never read another Marvel comic again.

My dream scenario is that it's interesting for awhile, stops selling after it gets boring and they give us Peter Parker back.

#26 Posted by r3d_rob1n (541 posts) - - Show Bio

The difference between Peter's death and the deaths of all these other characters is that Peter's body is still in existence. Cap was replaced by Bucky, Batman by Nightwing, Superman had that convoluted mess with Superboy/Steel/Cyborg Superman, all the characters had someone that wasn't truly them filling in. This new Spider-man is a villain who has murdered tons of people, been one of Peter's greatest enemies, and succeeded in ending Peter Parker's consciousness. Now he is rewarded with Spider powers, an avengers club card, Mary Jane declaring her love for him (while ignoring the obvious shift in personality), and an awesome job as a scientist. Sure this will be fun to read for a while, but in the long run people will get tired of it and call for Peter's return. As a result there will be a convoluted retcon that puts Peter back in his body but leaves people with a bad taste in their mouths. In the end this "experiment" will only distance Spider fans like One More Day did without truly drawing in any fresh new readers. This will incite more and more radical events that try to reestablish Spider-man sales until the character becomes a joke.

#27 Posted by nickzambuto (13062 posts) - - Show Bio

@JonSmith said:

You're forgetting one little thing: None of those guys save Osborn died near Peter Parker. Let's take a look at the good guys who've died near Pete.

Gwen Stacy.

Captain Stacy.

Uncle Ben.

Ben Reilly.

Gee, none of them are running around. When Spidey gets a good guy killed, he does it right. They stay dead. Ben Reilly was even a superhero in his own right. And look at that: All still dead.

Not to mention Betty Brant's brother who no one cares about... killed by Doc Ock no less.

#28 Posted by joshmightbe (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sufferthorn: I'm actually quite fed up with Marvel at this point so I've decided I'm done with them till Peter comes back

#29 Posted by Sufferthorn (1734 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

@Sufferthorn: I'm actually quite fed up with Marvel at this point so I've decided I'm done with them till Peter comes back

Stay Gold, Pony Boy.

#30 Posted by TheCowman (461 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm onboard for this.

The issue was well done and I think the status quo it sets up is really interesting. Just the relationship between Doc and the classic Spidey villains has a lot of potential.

Will Pete be back?

Of course he will. Slott's pretty much said as much. The same way we knew that Dick wouldn't stay Batman and Bucky wouldn't stay Captain America.

But the journey to that point has me quite intrigued. How good of a hero will Doc Ock be? Plus, when Pete does finally return, what will happen to Ock? If he somehow comes back as well, will he continue to try and be a hero?

This is just another stage in Spiderman's history and, I think, a potentially very interesting one.

#31 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sufferthorn said:

@fodigg:

Not sayin that....i'm saying that obvious politically correct characters are....obvious. For the SAKE of being politically correct rather than a storyline. Miles Morales didn't offend me because of his ethnicity for example, but really...? C,mon, it's obvious.

Why does that matter? Why is "oh no too obvious that they're trying to be inclusive" a problem when their stated goal is to be more inclusive? Why is "so obvious" a bigger problem than the appalling lack of diversity with headlining characters?

#32 Posted by joshmightbe (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: I'm fine with Miles and that has nothing to do with this. This is about the mounting disrespect Marvel has for its fans and whenever the people that kept the damned company running long enough for Disney to come along and buy it get upset about some horrible idea they have some writer or editor comes out to give a pompous ass speech about how we'll get over it. I have been a very staunch Marvel supporter almost an apologist at times during this period but no more. I have been reading Marvel since I was 5 years old and for the first time ever I refuse to just accept that this is just how it is now.

I am done.

#33 Edited by jashro44 (19933 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@JonSmith said:

You're forgetting one little thing: None of those guys save Osborn died near Peter Parker. Let's take a look at the good guys who've died near Pete.

Gwen Stacy.

Captain Stacy.

Uncle Ben.

Ben Reilly.

Gee, none of them are running around. When Spidey gets a good guy killed, he does it right. They stay dead. Ben Reilly was even a superhero in his own right. And look at that: All still dead.

Not to mention Betty Brant's brother who no one cares about... killed by Doc Ock no less.

No they brought him back to life IIRC.

#34 Posted by mariioow (45 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Didn't he died again anyway?

#35 Posted by jashro44 (19933 posts) - - Show Bio

@mariioow said:

@jashro44: Didn't he died again anyway?

Yea. But not near spider-man.

#36 Posted by Sufferthorn (1734 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Yea, and he's pretty much guaranteed to come back.

Nothing's permanent, especially not Peter Parker dying in the 616 Universe.

#37 Edited by Shawnbaby (10485 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@JonSmith said:

You're forgetting one little thing: None of those guys save Osborn died near Peter Parker. Let's take a look at the good guys who've died near Pete.

Gwen Stacy.

Captain Stacy.

Uncle Ben.

Ben Reilly.

Gee, none of them are running around. When Spidey gets a good guy killed, he does it right. They stay dead. Ben Reilly was even a superhero in his own right. And look at that: All still dead.

Not to mention Betty Brant's brother who no one cares about... killed by Doc Ock no less.

Captain Stacy was also killed by Ock...albeit indirectly.

They tried replacing Parker before... We all remember exactly how long that lasted and the extreme measures they took to assure the readers that it was over. Ben Reilly RIP

@JonSmith: Technically speaking...Ock didn't actually swap minds with Pete...Closer to say he forced a copy into Pete's Brain and right now...Ock's in the Driver's Seat...But Pete is still in there too...and he's already shown that he can exert some influence over what Ock does. Slott has given them an easy out here. One Telepathic Exorcism and Pete is back in charge.

#38 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

@fodigg: I'm fine with Miles and that has nothing to do with this. This is about the mounting disrespect Marvel has for its fans and whenever the people that kept the damned company running long enough for Disney to come along and buy it get upset about some horrible idea they have some writer or editor comes out to give a pompous ass speech about how we'll get over it. I have been a very staunch Marvel supporter almost an apologist at times during this period but no more. I have been reading Marvel since I was 5 years old and for the first time ever I refuse to just accept that this is just how it is now.

I am done.

So this is the first time Marvel's had bad ideas since you were 5 years old? I don't think so.

#39 Posted by joshmightbe (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: No this is just the straw that broke the camel's back

#40 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

@fodigg: No this is just the straw that broke the camel's back

Fair enough, but that says more about you (your state of mounting frustration) than about the state of the industry and of Marvel.

#41 Posted by joshmightbe (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: The state of Marvel is the reason for my mounting frustration, I have been one of the most forgiving Marvel fans I know of for the last 10 years. I've accepted bad characterization, bad plots, a laundry list of instances of outright disrespect for both the characters and fans. How much am I supposed to take from them before its okay to stop supporting what they're doing?

#42 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

@fodigg: The state of Marvel is the reason for my mounting frustration, I have been one of the most forgiving Marvel fans I know of for the last 10 years. I've accepted bad characterization, bad plots, a laundry list of instances of outright disrespect for both the characters and fans. How much am I supposed to take from them before its okay to stop supporting what they're doing?

You said you're not talking about Miles Morales, but I have no idea what you are talking about then. Tell me and maybe I can give you an answer. But there's good and bad in Marvel right now, just like there always has been and always will be. Go read Hawkeye.

#43 Posted by mewmdude77 (993 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm curious on how this all works out. It's a really interesting turn of events. This is for sure not the worst thing that has happened to the Spider-Man comics. OMD, Sins Past, and Clone Saga will always be the worst. We just need to be patient, since Peter will be back someday.

#44 Posted by joshmightbe (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: I'm talking about this superior spiderman crap, I was totally fine with Miles taking over in the Ultimate universe because Peter was still the 616 Spiderman

#45 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (5228 posts) - - Show Bio
@Xorion

I actually liked the idea of ock being the new siderman. It seems interesting to see things from peter's side. SO I'm not panicking I grabbed my towel and waiting

THIS!! Ish 700 was awesome to me. I'm looking forward to see how Ock carries out his promise, the inventions he comes up with to enhance his Spider powers, how he adjusts to them and interacts with the rest of the cast. Also I love hiw he realized Peter was holding back his true power most of the time, that may have humbled Ock a bit.
#46 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

@fodigg: I'm talking about this superior spiderman crap, I was totally fine with Miles taking over in the Ultimate universe because Peter was still the 616 Spiderman

Superior Spider-Man is just Kraven's Last Hunt stretched out. Expanded thoughts in spoiler block.

@fodigg said:

Good thread, good thoughts. I think there are some legitimate concerns in questioning how they're going to approach the Otto Parker/Mary Jane relationship--there's some very choppy waters there thematically when it comes to the full ramifications of engaging in a serious relationship under false pretenses--but overall this is a new and interesting story with transhumanist themes and the potential for new ground on both characters. And, as you said, it's the easiest change to undo ever. Either Peter still lives in his own body and he only thinks he's Otto, or Peter still exists in Octavius' semi-sentient arms or octobots and will return in some other capacity. Perhaps Otto will even find a way to save Peter, ultimately redeeming himself.

Comparisons to the Clone Saga, Sins Past, and One More Day are totally overblown. Those stories were terrible for very clear reasons: they all involved characters acting totally out of character as if the writers didn't know what they were doing. In the first, Peter Parker finds out he's not "real" so he just gives up his identity and stops trying to help people. Stupid. In the second, Gwen Stacy bangs Norman Osborn and has two kids who are now grown up and evil. You can't even make that work in the timeline, let alone square that with the character personalities. In the third, Peter "responsibility" Parker sells his wife to the literal devil. These are bad stories.

Compare that to 700 where we get a Peter Parker who is himself to the very end. Who refuses to yield who he is and regrets even trying to kill Otto via self sacrifice. Who "dies" without any regrets over the high ideals he's held himself to--even though it seems as if he set himself up for failure by holding to those ideals. And most importantly, who through force of personality alone shares these ideals in the clearest way with his enemy, instilling Otto with them as well. In a very important way, Peter Parker won and Otto only gained a Pyrrhic victory at best. Otto gets to be Peter Parker, but he also feels the burden of Peter Parker. All the good that Otto does as SSM is a living testament to what Spider-Man stands for, because it was his mercy and his standard of personal responsibility that gave Otto this chance to redeem himself. You can't read these issues and tell me that Dan Slott doesn't understand the character or is out to disrespect him.

No, I think 700 is far more like Kraven's Last Hunt, a story in which Peter has the hell beaten out of him physically and psychologically again and again, where Kraven "kills" Peter, buries him, and then takes over as a new Spider-Man and proves that he's a better Spider-Man. And yet the conclusion Kraven comes to is that Peter is a good man, he's just never been able to see it before--that he just needed to walk a mile in the man's tights. And it is this new-found understanding that ultimately defeats him. Sound familiar? And that book is considered one of the great Spider-Man stories of all time.

By all means, be upset that Peter's temporarily on the bench if you want--or express justifiable squick at the very nasty implications of an intimate Otto Parker/MJ relationship--but this has great storytelling potential and I can't wait to read it. I think this has a chance to be a real watershed moment for Spider-Man in a good way.

#47 Posted by nickzambuto (13062 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto said:

@JonSmith said:

You're forgetting one little thing: None of those guys save Osborn died near Peter Parker. Let's take a look at the good guys who've died near Pete.

Gwen Stacy.

Captain Stacy.

Uncle Ben.

Ben Reilly.

Gee, none of them are running around. When Spidey gets a good guy killed, he does it right. They stay dead. Ben Reilly was even a superhero in his own right. And look at that: All still dead.

Not to mention Betty Brant's brother who no one cares about... killed by Doc Ock no less.

No they brought him back to life IIRC.

lol

#48 Posted by jashro44 (19933 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sufferthorn said:

@jashro44:

Yea, and he's pretty much guaranteed to come back.

Nothing's permanent, especially not Peter Parker dying in the 616 Universe.

Yea death is pretty much meaningless in comics which is why I just can't get worked up over this. I'm a little sad but then I just think of how many other times characters have died in comics and as shawnbaby mentioned its a pretty easy fix so technically Peter isn't even dead. Just missing in action.

#49 Posted by joshmightbe (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: You totally missed the point of Kraven's last hunt, Kraven didn't want to take over Spiderman's life he wanted to beat him and prove he was better, Kraven's last Hunt was the story of a man who wanted to die on his own terms, Where as the premise of this was Ock being a bitch about it and being a petty dick. The 2 stories are not comparable.

#50 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

@fodigg: You totally missed the point of Kraven's last hunt, Kraven didn't want to take over Spiderman's life he wanted to beat him and prove he was better, Kraven's last Hunt was the story of a man who wanted to die on his own terms, Where as the premise of this was Ock being a bitch about it and being a petty dick. The 2 stories are not comparable.

Kraven spent weeks as Spider-Man. Being Spider-Man. Sure, we only see him beat up two thugs harassing Mary Jane but he did exactly what SSM did, only we get to stretch that time out. If you can't see the parallels, you're hopeless.

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