About Peter and MJ's Out of Character... (Theory)

#1 Edited by clonesaga2099 (96 posts) - - Show Bio

This isn't a hate thread about Superior, it's just a theory!

During the 80's, 90's and early 2000's Spider-Man was this tough guy, and he knew it. He could wreck teams and was incredibly competent and had a lot of respect from the Heroic community. Ever since 2005 or so, he's become the butt monkey of the MU.

Mary Jane during this time was also a strong character. Sure she couldn't fight crime and worried about Peter a lot, (can you really blame her? The man goes out to fight guys who could crack his his skull open if he held still for more than 5 seconds.) but she did things like beat the Chameleon with a bat, after realizing, very quickly, this wasn't her husband. Chameleon is a master of disguise this shows that MJ is pretty clever and knows her husband well. She and the husband even had a laugh about it.

Kicking Chameleons sorry butt.

Well in Superior we saw that she was reduced to a helpless damsel in distress, waiting around for Peter to come save her instead of trying to do it herself and she didn't seem to notice Ock's ego maniac tendencies, unlike Carlie Cooper.

We also saw in Superior Doc Ock was able to wreck Peter in his own mind, despite the fact he had the support of his loved ones and Ock one by exploiting the "fact" Peter is weak.

This isn't anything like Peter "Determinator" Parker like we've been reading about. Especially since just the thought of Aunt May was enough to give him the power to perform his most iconic feat of Will and to push beyond his usual strength early in his career.

Sure it may seem like I'm whining "RUINED4EVUR!" but I think there's a reason for all of this. It all dates back to One More Day, please hear me out.

Remember how Mephisto said " A part of your souls will remember and that soul will be tortured by your being apart from one another. (Paraphrasing). Yet it seems that Peter cares absolutely nothing about it and doesn't seem remotely fazed. Immediately afterwards is when "The Decline of Spider-Man" begins.

I propose that the Peter and MJ we're reading about are genuinely Peter and MJ, but only their "weaker" traits. That's why Peter's confidence is gone, and he's so easily out shined by Doc Ock. Mary Jane no longer the woman she once was, since that part of her character has been stolen from her.

Mephisto posses the Strong parts of their souls, and is torturing them, while making the "weak parts" suffer too. It's basically the same as taking the soul, just making them miserable. He's probably hoping he can drag the whole soul to his domain once they die. Since I don't think Mephisto could be fooled by a mortal.

It could be entirely possible that through Superior Spider-Man Dan Slott has set a plan to remove the weakness from Spider-Man. The Strong part of their Souls will come back to reclaim their bodies, once the deal is broken. Dan Slott is trying to retcon One More Day and put back ALL the continuity. The deal will be broken and then Peter will claim his body back. But that won't happen for a while, since Marvel wants to get what they can out of Superior first.

Thoughts?

#2 Posted by Strider92 (16450 posts) - - Show Bio

If this turns out to be true I could forgive both BND and Superior which is something I never thought i'd say.

#3 Edited by clonesaga2099 (96 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: Yeah, I'd be incredibly grateful if this turns out to be the master plan.

#4 Posted by animehunter (1964 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm with @strider92, and like him it's something I never thought I'd say, but, it might take me a long time for me to forgive after what Marvel put us through.

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#5 Posted by Phaedrusgr (1672 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: I don't think that's the case, but as you said that would be so great, I could forgive BND. Yet, I couldn't forgive SSM. Slott ruined two characters. Spiderman and Doc Ock. Apart from obliterating Peter, he made me hate an essential villain in the spiderman realm. Let's see how it goes...

#6 Posted by TDK_1997 (14891 posts) - - Show Bio

I would still be mad and not a fan of Superior but if that is true then it is not that bad.

#7 Edited by GraniteSoldier (7743 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's a very interesting theory. If it becomes even somewhat true I might become ok with OMD and BND. Maybe...

But with the inevitable return of Peter to his own body, makes me wonder what of Ock? I like his character as a villain but he has no body to return to. And I dread another Mephisto "magic" moment.

#8 Posted by akbogert (3222 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't even remotely think this is the case -- not even the slightest bit -- but it would be the most amazing thing ever.

#9 Posted by darthfury78 (844 posts) - - Show Bio

I always felt that the situation that led to OMD was Mephisto's own handy work.

He had to create those circumstance that led to the Kingpin putting a contract

hit on Peter by making him reveal his identity to the world. Otherwise, why

would Peter be stupid enough to reveal his identity to the world anyway when he

knows that his enemies would come after him? To me, the real reason why Mephisto

wanted to offer a deal to Peter to save his Aunt May's(who wasn't really dying

to begin with) was because he needed Peter's soul to unlock a door that leads to

a weapon that he could use against the Gods. In my opinion, Peter should never

had made a deal with Mephisto to begin with because his gifts comes at a price.

I was counting on Peter being dead sooner or later and his soul finally going to

Hell as part of Mephisto's plan.

Peter's soul will remain in Hell until

it finds a way to escape.

In the Pre-OMD universe, if Peter had turned

down Mephisto's offer then it's likely that Mary Jane and Aunt May would have

been killed. In addition, Peter Parker would probably be put on trial and sent

to jail from a corrupt judicial system and have his spider-powers removed. This

would be another of Mephisto's tactics until he gets what he wants.

#10 Posted by acer51 (2236 posts) - - Show Bio

Well in response to the OP, Ock didn't really defeat Peter, he just defeated what was left of him, we saw in the last issues of Amazing how Spider-man was going into heaven. What Ock defeated was just what was left behind, a little piece of Parker that stayed in the mind and didn't want to leave.

#11 Posted by Ninjablade09 (3165 posts) - - Show Bio

Great theory, I hope it's true, but probably not. I wish Marvel would just reboot their characters instead of "changing the status quo" to return them to their original place, especially with Spider-man. Just reboot the series, but after ASM reaches 1000 issues, first comic to do that.

#12 Posted by Bokkie (83 posts) - - Show Bio

Ben Reily will return somehow and will fix all this mess

:)

#13 Posted by darthfury78 (844 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51 said:

Well in response to the OP, Ock didn't really defeat Peter, he just defeated what was left of him, we saw in the last issues of Amazing how Spider-man was going into heaven. What Ock defeated was just what was left behind, a little piece of Parker that stayed in the mind and didn't want to leave.

Here is a question: The place that Peter went was not Heaven because neither the Rhino or Silver Sable are dead until a body shows up. For all we know the image of Heaven was just another Mephisto/Slott manipulation to fool the audience. If Peter was really in Heaven, we would have seen Jean DeWolf and Ben Reily.

#14 Posted by animehunter (1964 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51 said:

Well in response to the OP, Ock didn't really defeat Peter, he just defeated what was left of him, we saw in the last issues of Amazing how Spider-man was going into heaven. What Ock defeated was just what was left behind, a little piece of Parker that stayed in the mind and didn't want to leave.

Here is a question: The place that Peter went was not Heaven because neither the Rhino or Silver Sable are dead until a body shows up. For all we know the image of Heaven was just another Mephisto/Slott manipulation to fool the audience. If Peter was really in Heaven, we would have seen Jean DeWolf and Ben Reily.

I believe it has been stated that Peter was in a sort of dream state, when he feel unconscious in issue ASM 700. Definitely not heaven. and it has also been revealed by Julia Carpenter, in ASM 690, that Silver Sable is still alive and that her story isn't over: ALIVE?Julia Capenter says YES, No body, No funeral(Spoilers) Post 17 & 27

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#15 Edited by cameron83 (7296 posts) - - Show Bio

This isn't a hate thread about Superior, it's just a theory!

During the 80's, 90's and early 2000's Spider-Man was this tough guy, and he knew it. He could wreck teams and was incredibly competent and had a lot of respect from the Heroic community. Ever since 2005 or so, he's become the butt monkey of the MU.

Mary Jane during this time was also a strong character. Sure she couldn't fight crime and worried about Peter a lot, (can you really blame her? The man goes out to fight guys who could crack his his skull open if he held still for more than 5 seconds.) but she did things like beat the Chameleon with a bat, after realizing, very quickly, this wasn't her husband. Chameleon is a master of disguise this shows that MJ is pretty clever and knows her husband well. She and the husband even had a laugh about it.

Kicking Chameleons sorry butt.

Well in Superior we saw that she was reduced to a helpless damsel in distress, waiting around for Peter to come save her instead of trying to do it herself and she didn't seem to notice Ock's ego maniac tendencies, unlike Carlie Cooper.

We also saw in Superior Doc Ock was able to wreck Peter in his own mind, despite the fact he had the support of his loved ones and Ock one by exploiting the "fact" Peter is weak.

This isn't anything like Peter "Determinator" Parker like we've been reading about. Especially since just the thought of Aunt May was enough to give him the power to perform his most iconic feat of Will and to push beyond his usual strength early in his career.

Sure it may seem like I'm whining "RUINED4EVUR!" but I think there's a reason for all of this. It all dates back to One More Day, please hear me out.

Remember how Mephisto said " A part of your souls will remember and that soul will be tortured by your being apart from one another. (Paraphrasing). Yet it seems that Peter cares absolutely nothing about it and doesn't seem remotely fazed. Immediately afterwards is when "The Decline of Spider-Man" begins.

I propose that the Peter and MJ we're reading about are genuinely Peter and MJ, but only their "weaker" traits. That's why Peter's confidence is gone, and he's so easily out shined by Doc Ock. Mary Jane no longer the woman she once was, since that part of her character has been stolen from her.

Mephisto posses the Strong parts of their souls, and is torturing them, while making the "weak parts" suffer too. It's basically the same as taking the soul, just making them miserable. He's probably hoping he can drag the whole soul to his domain once they die. Since I don't think Mephisto could be fooled by a mortal.

It could be entirely possible that through Superior Spider-Man Dan Slott has set a plan to remove the weakness from Spider-Man. The Strong part of their Souls will come back to reclaim their bodies, once the deal is broken. Dan Slott is trying to retcon One More Day and put back ALL the continuity. The deal will be broken and then Peter will claim his body back. But that won't happen for a while, since Marvel wants to get what they can out of Superior first.

Thoughts?

very interesting and well thought out theory.I think that something along these lines may actually happen!

#16 Posted by Bokkie (83 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthfury78: Well basicly Ock took over his mind and body, and last i checked you need both to be deceased and enter heaven (if you believe in that ofcourse).

#17 Posted by Phaedrusgr (1672 posts) - - Show Bio

@bokkie: It depends on the definition of the soul...

#18 Posted by PunyParker (10873 posts) - - Show Bio

Since OMD Marvel is constantly trying to weaken the character,and succeeding....With a pick point the winy ghost Pete, Slott presented.

His best weapon and the most likeable part is his sharp wit.....Marvel expanded it to an irritating way that he seems to be an annoying kid,to new/young readers....(and watchers,a.k.a. Ultimate Spider-Man)

He seemed to be a really strong hero....physically....but he mentioned in a comic in 2009(i think) that a car,he was holding,was too heavy and he couldnt take it anymore(!)

I dont know whats happening,but the sure thing is that it got to its last stand,cause Pete's dead and Ock took his body....

#19 Posted by acer51 (2236 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51 said:

Well in response to the OP, Ock didn't really defeat Peter, he just defeated what was left of him, we saw in the last issues of Amazing how Spider-man was going into heaven. What Ock defeated was just what was left behind, a little piece of Parker that stayed in the mind and didn't want to leave.

Here is a question: The place that Peter went was not Heaven because neither the Rhino or Silver Sable are dead until a body shows up. For all we know the image of Heaven was just another Mephisto/Slott manipulation to fool the audience. If Peter was really in Heaven, we would have seen Jean DeWolf and Ben Reily.

Not necessarily, we don't have to see them on panel for them to be there. Although I'm not sure he is truly dead, because I was pretty sure I saw him reincarnated as a fire-man in an issue of Superior.

#20 Posted by Phaedrusgr (1672 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51: Aha! So, you're a "Pedro is Peter" follower...Why do you think Pedro is Peter? Any good ideas?

#21 Posted by clonesaga2099 (96 posts) - - Show Bio

@punyparker: I agree with you completely, it's almost like Marvel doesn't want us to like Spider-Man. Maybe Joe Q is an arachnophobe, and doesn't like a spider the flagship character

He seemed to be a really strong hero....physically....but he mentioned in a comic in 2009(i think) that a car,he was holding,was too heavy and he couldnt take it anymore(!)

Seriously? A car?!? He couldn't lift a car? Back in the 90's he lifted a subway train over his head easily!

#22 Edited by w0nd (3388 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly think it's just bad writing. Peter has been doubting himself since day one. His life and confidence sky rocketted after that, new job at horizon, becoming the ladies man and so on, heck MJ just opened a night club.

You have a good theory, but I honestly doubt that's what they are going for, I just think they didn't know what to do with him and did that whole selling their love thing.

#23 Posted by PunyParker (10873 posts) - - Show Bio

@punyparker: I agree with you completely, it's almost like Marvel doesn't want us to like Spider-Man. Maybe Joe Q is an arachnophobe, and doesn't like a spider the flagship character

@punyparker said:

He seemed to be a really strong hero....physically....but he mentioned in a comic in 2009(i think) that a car,he was holding,was too heavy and he couldnt take it anymore(!)

Seriously? A car?!? He couldn't lift a car? Back in the 90's he lifted a subway train over his head easily!

I dont think it's only Joe Q's fault....Walker,Slott and Alonso are risponssible for Superior.....mostly Slott,when JMS wasnt responssible about OMD...

.............................

2003....THIS IS A FREAKIN BUILDING!!

#24 Posted by clonesaga2099 (96 posts) - - Show Bio

@w0nd: I'd have to respectfully disagree, Peter's always been a ladies man, since the Steve Ditko/ Stan Lee era. He had Betty Brant, Liz Allan was attracted to him,and he got Gwen Stacy and MJ. Sure Peter and MJ got a few nice things working out for them, and that's good, but it doesn't excuse the fact their characters are undeniably weaker than they used to be. Peter never really doubted himself before, I recently read the Spider-Man Essentials, which provide the earliest Spider-adventures. Peter would mostly be upset with how despite his actions and all of his power he couldn't fix certain issues with his life. He never doubted he was a great fighter, but it bothered him that it didn't help pay the bills or help his relationships. Somewhere along the line it appears that the MU decided he should be a moping loser.

At least that's how it seems to me.

#25 Edited by darthfury78 (844 posts) - - Show Bio

@bokkie said:

@darthfury78: Well basicly Ock took over his mind and body, and last i checked you need both to be deceased and enter heaven (if you believe in that ofcourse).

Well, Peter's mind was switched into Ock's dying body. When Ock's body deceased, Peter's mind was trapped within it. And since Peter mind died within Dr. Ock's body, his soul went to Hell, which complete the OMD cycle that was engineered by Mephisto himself from the very beginning.

#26 Edited by 8008S (468 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthfury78: That's quite the tragic way to put it. Mephisto claimed not to be interested in his soul, though -given "there's no fun" in tormenting people who sacrifice their souls for someone else. I would also guess souls go wherever they deserve regardless of the um, "container" they leave in the physical world.

EDIT: Oh, he does add there will be more chances to get his soul directly. Sigh.

#27 Edited by acer51 (2236 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51: Aha! So, you're a "Pedro is Peter" follower...Why do you think Pedro is Peter? Any good ideas?

Only that he has a similar name and face. In reality we would dismiss it as coincidence but in a comic book it has to mean something.

#28 Posted by acer51 (2236 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't bellive some of you think Parker went to hell, your flesh doesn't matter it's your soul that counts. Just because he was in Ocks body dosn't mean he's damned.

But I'm not one to judge anyone's soul, even a fictitious characters.

#29 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13129 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51 said:

I can't bellive some of you think Parker went to hell, your flesh doesn't matter it's your soul that counts. Just because he was in Ocks body dosn't mean he's damned.

But I'm not one to judge anyone's soul, even a fictitious characters.

its not that, its the whole "making a deal with a demonic entity" that makes people believe it.

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#30 Edited by acer51 (2236 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51 said:

I can't bellive some of you think Parker went to hell, your flesh doesn't matter it's your soul that counts. Just because he was in Ocks body dosn't mean he's damned.

But I'm not one to judge anyone's soul, even a fictitious characters.

its not that, its the whole "making a deal with a demonic entity" that makes people believe it.

Well he didn't sell his soul, he sold his marriage. Which is pretty sick I'll admit, but that doesn't automatically make him a bad person.

But as I said I don't even think the guys dead, I'm pretty sure he lives in Pedro.

#31 Edited by Avenging-X-Bolt (13129 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51 said:

@avenging_x_bolt said:

@acer51 said:

I can't bellive some of you think Parker went to hell, your flesh doesn't matter it's your soul that counts. Just because he was in Ocks body dosn't mean he's damned.

But I'm not one to judge anyone's soul, even a fictitious characters.

its not that, its the whole "making a deal with a demonic entity" that makes people believe it.

Well he didn't sell his soul, he sold his marriage. Which is pretty sick I'll admit, but that doesn't automatically make him a bad person.

i agree he isnt a bad person. but regardless of what he gave up, he still made a bargain with an enemy of god. thats a one way ticket to hell if im not mistaken.

But as I said I don't even think the guys dead, I'm pretty sure he lives in Pedro.

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#32 Edited by PunyParker (10873 posts) - - Show Bio

@avenging_x_bolt: @acer51: I also thought about that,but maybe Slott threw in Pedro just to f*ck with us......he does that.

#33 Edited by animehunter (1964 posts) - - Show Bio

@punyparker said:

@avenging_x_bolt: @acer51: I also thought about that,but maybe Slott threw in Pedro just to f*ck with us......he does that.

I'll agree with this statement, it's, It felt more like a moment that isn't meant to go anywhere, just a scene where she thought it was Peter, then it wasn't i.e. a coincidence.

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#34 Edited by PunyParker (10873 posts) - - Show Bio

@punyparker said:

@avenging_x_bolt: @acer51: I also thought about that,but maybe Slott threw in Pedro just to f*ck with us......he does that.

I'll agree with this statement, it's, It felt more like a moment that isn't meant to go anywhere, just a scene where she taught it was Peter, then it wasn't i.e. a coincidence.

Exacly.She wanted so bad,for Peter to save her,that she "saw" him everywhere,in every face....something like that.

#35 Posted by acer51 (2236 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51 said:

@avenging_x_bolt said:

@acer51 said:

I can't bellive some of you think Parker went to hell, your flesh doesn't matter it's your soul that counts. Just because he was in Ocks body dosn't mean he's damned.

But I'm not one to judge anyone's soul, even a fictitious characters.

its not that, its the whole "making a deal with a demonic entity" that makes people believe it.

Well he didn't sell his soul, he sold his marriage. Which is pretty sick I'll admit, but that doesn't automatically make him a bad person.

i agree he isnt a bad person. but regardless of what he gave up, he still made a bargain with an enemy of god. thats a one way ticket to hell if im not mistaken.

But as I said I don't even think the guys dead, I'm pretty sure he lives in Pedro.

People have made bargains with Gods enemy's and not gone to hell for it I'm pretty sure. Besides it was implied he was going to heaven in the last issue of amazing Spider-man.

But either way I can't prove parkers soul would have gone to heaven and you can't prove he went to hell.

For all we know Hitler himself repented and gained salvation at his last hours and he didn't really commit suicide.

#36 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13129 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51 said:

@avenging_x_bolt said:

@acer51 said:

@avenging_x_bolt said:

@acer51 said:

I can't bellive some of you think Parker went to hell, your flesh doesn't matter it's your soul that counts. Just because he was in Ocks body dosn't mean he's damned.

But I'm not one to judge anyone's soul, even a fictitious characters.

its not that, its the whole "making a deal with a demonic entity" that makes people believe it.

Well he didn't sell his soul, he sold his marriage. Which is pretty sick I'll admit, but that doesn't automatically make him a bad person.

i agree he isnt a bad person. but regardless of what he gave up, he still made a bargain with an enemy of god. thats a one way ticket to hell if im not mistaken.

But as I said I don't even think the guys dead, I'm pretty sure he lives in Pedro.

People have made bargains with Gods enemy's and not gone to hell for it I'm pretty sure.

Like who?

Besides it was implied he was going to heaven in the last issue of amazing Spider-man.

wasnt that disproved by Julia Carpenter?

But either way I can't prove parkers soul would have gone to heaven and you can't prove he went to hell.

true.

For all we know Hitler himself repented and gained salvation at his last hours and he didn't really commit suicide.

maybe.

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#37 Posted by Phaedrusgr (1672 posts) - - Show Bio

@punyparker: @acer51: Yeah, he could be messing around with Parker's fans, Slott does it (a lot). So, I can't say I haven't noticed the similarities, nevertheless, I can't say I'm convinced he could be something more than a coincidence.

#38 Edited by darthfury78 (844 posts) - - Show Bio
@acer51 said:

People have made bargains with Gods enemy's and not gone to hell for it I'm pretty sure. Besides it was implied he was going to heaven in the last issue of amazing Spider-man.

But either way I can't prove parkers soul would have gone to heaven and you can't prove he went to hell.

For all we know Hitler himself repented and gained salvation at his last hours and he didn't really commit suicide.

The Heaven that appeared in ASM #700 was just an illusion created by Mephisto because why would Silver Sable and the Rhino be there as neither one are dead without their dead body to show for it. And how does Silver Sable know that Spider-Man is Peter Parker? To me, it's the Demon's handy work. The reason why Mephisto wants Peter's soul is because it contains a power that would make it possible for him to destroy the Gods and to rule the Heavens. The only person who could have stopped him was Mayday Parker who he saw as a threat because of her ability to turn enemies into allies. But thanks to Mephisto OMD scheme, she doesn't exist in the Earth-616 timeline anymore.

#39 Posted by PunyParker (10873 posts) - - Show Bio

@phaedrusgr: Well,if it's accually is Peter,then well played Slott....

#40 Posted by Phaedrusgr (1672 posts) - - Show Bio

@punyparker: Not exactly well played, but he could in a way redeem himself...just a little bit though. He's caused enough damage (ASM #700, what a death, and SSM #9, what a terrible way to kill again Peter in utter disgrace).

#41 Posted by PunyParker (10873 posts) - - Show Bio

@punyparker: Not exactly well played, but he could in a way redeem himself...just a little bit though. He's caused enough damage (ASM #700, what a death, and SSM #9, what a terrible way to kill again Peter in utter disgrace).

.....and if you concider that he makes Peter ruin Pedro's life,just like Ock did to his,yes you're right,i stand with my primar opinion,that this is totally coincidential,and MJ just "wanted" him to be Pete.Nothing more,nothing less.

#42 Posted by tupiaz (2183 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't read any post OMD (not even the story, since the idea and premises is just plain stupid) and I won't doit until I think it is fixed somehow reasonable. This is an ok solution however I'm not holding my breath while I'm waiting.

#43 Posted by acer51 (2236 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51 said:

@avenging_x_bolt said:

@acer51 said:

@avenging_x_bolt said:

@acer51 said:

I can't bellive some of you think Parker went to hell, your flesh doesn't matter it's your soul that counts. Just because he was in Ocks body dosn't mean he's damned.

But I'm not one to judge anyone's soul, even a fictitious characters.

its not that, its the whole "making a deal with a demonic entity" that makes people believe it.

Well he didn't sell his soul, he sold his marriage. Which is pretty sick I'll admit, but that doesn't automatically make him a bad person.

i agree he isnt a bad person. but regardless of what he gave up, he still made a bargain with an enemy of god. thats a one way ticket to hell if im not mistaken.

But as I said I don't even think the guys dead, I'm pretty sure he lives in Pedro.

People have made bargains with Gods enemy's and not gone to hell for it I'm pretty sure.

Like who?

Besides it was implied he was going to heaven in the last issue of amazing Spider-man.

wasnt that disproved by Julia Carpenter?

But either way I can't prove parkers soul would have gone to heaven and you can't prove he went to hell.

true.

For all we know Hitler himself repented and gained salvation at his last hours and he didn't really commit suicide.

maybe.

Anyone who ever bought drugs from bad people or illegal weapons or any other black market items. Anyone who made a war deal with someone they knew was a sadistic leader.

#44 Posted by PunyParker (10873 posts) - - Show Bio

@tupiaz said:

I haven't read any post OMD (not even the story, since the idea and premises is just plain stupid) and I won't doit until I think it is fixed somehow reasonable. This is an ok solution however I'm not holding my breath while I'm waiting.

On one side i think you should support the character,and read the books,no matter what happens to him.....well,except the superior story which is stupid.
On the other side,you havent missed anything....in 2008 you could read Ultimate or other good arcs that could keep you Spiderman-y.

#45 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13129 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51 said:

@avenging_x_bolt said:

@acer51 said:

@avenging_x_bolt said:

@acer51 said:

@avenging_x_bolt said:

@acer51 said:

I can't bellive some of you think Parker went to hell, your flesh doesn't matter it's your soul that counts. Just because he was in Ocks body dosn't mean he's damned.

But I'm not one to judge anyone's soul, even a fictitious characters.

its not that, its the whole "making a deal with a demonic entity" that makes people believe it.

Well he didn't sell his soul, he sold his marriage. Which is pretty sick I'll admit, but that doesn't automatically make him a bad person.

i agree he isnt a bad person. but regardless of what he gave up, he still made a bargain with an enemy of god. thats a one way ticket to hell if im not mistaken.

But as I said I don't even think the guys dead, I'm pretty sure he lives in Pedro.

People have made bargains with Gods enemy's and not gone to hell for it I'm pretty sure.

Like who?

Besides it was implied he was going to heaven in the last issue of amazing Spider-man.

wasnt that disproved by Julia Carpenter?

But either way I can't prove parkers soul would have gone to heaven and you can't prove he went to hell.

true.

For all we know Hitler himself repented and gained salvation at his last hours and he didn't really commit suicide.

maybe.

Anyone who ever bought drugs from bad people or illegal weapons or any other black market items. Anyone who made a war deal with someone they knew was a sadistic leader.

not the same. those are human who in god eyes can be redeemed. they aren't gods enemies. they're his misguided children. he hates their ACTIONS not the people themselves. im talking about the irredeemable (demons). remember how everyone thought that Johnny Blaze was safe because Mephisto never got his soul? what happened to him? he still ended up getting sent to hell. anyway, ive given my two bits and m going to let it go before i sound like one of those psychotic who try to pass themselves off as christians.

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#46 Edited by PunyParker (10873 posts) - - Show Bio

In 1976, Amazing Spider-Man # 157 Ock is haunted by a ghost. Doesn’t that sound familiar?.....

#47 Posted by jcolesamuels (20 posts) - - Show Bio

well here might be my tidbit here. we know that peter is gone for now and that thanks to the avenging titles that future people know of the swap. maybe that fireman wasn't peter but miguel o'hara scoping and doing damage control. trying to soften the blow when he eventually fights SpOck. though most likely 2099 would probably be brought here from that time rip from the Age of ultron thing. and the fireman would probably be something to quitely excuse Mary Jane out of the picture so Ock can love the new girl in his life the little person who has the awesome cooking. just saying i like her. wishfull thinking aside. i like your theory though cause: one would make this whole pill easier to swallow and two for what i see marvel for at least a bit has been trying to erase there previous mistakes. like how AVX was all just to destroy Wanda's Hex on the world. or how bringing back the original mutants x-men would definitely change everything. in their universe unless they erase their minds. though they probably just missed drawing and working with Jean Gray. cause isn't it a bit convenient that she came back just when the phoenix force dies. though since phoenix's rise from the grave i don't really know how thats supposed to work. i had more but i can't remember it all right now. though i'd wish superior was bi-monthly so it would give slott a bit more pages to tell this story instead of constantly jumping to the next event. after next without many of our answers being answered.plus i don't like that May doesn't know Peter's secret its kinda annoying watching how she favors him than hates him than favors him again. wish he would handle these relationships better at least.

#48 Posted by muhabba (299 posts) - - Show Bio

This isn't a hate thread about Superior, it's just a theory!

During the 80's, 90's and early 2000's Spider-Man was this tough guy, and he knew it. He could wreck teams and was incredibly competent and had a lot of respect from the Heroic community. Ever since 2005 or so, he's become the butt monkey of the MU.

Mary Jane during this time was also a strong character. Sure she couldn't fight crime and worried about Peter a lot, (can you really blame her? The man goes out to fight guys who could crack his his skull open if he held still for more than 5 seconds.) but she did things like beat the Chameleon with a bat, after realizing, very quickly, this wasn't her husband. Chameleon is a master of disguise this shows that MJ is pretty clever and knows her husband well. She and the husband even had a laugh about it.

Kicking Chameleons sorry butt.

Well in Superior we saw that she was reduced to a helpless damsel in distress, waiting around for Peter to come save her instead of trying to do it herself and she didn't seem to notice Ock's ego maniac tendencies, unlike Carlie Cooper.

We also saw in Superior Doc Ock was able to wreck Peter in his own mind, despite the fact he had the support of his loved ones and Ock one by exploiting the "fact" Peter is weak.

This isn't anything like Peter "Determinator" Parker like we've been reading about. Especially since just the thought of Aunt May was enough to give him the power to perform his most iconic feat of Will and to push beyond his usual strength early in his career.

Sure it may seem like I'm whining "RUINED4EVUR!" but I think there's a reason for all of this. It all dates back to One More Day, please hear me out.

Remember how Mephisto said " A part of your souls will remember and that soul will be tortured by your being apart from one another. (Paraphrasing). Yet it seems that Peter cares absolutely nothing about it and doesn't seem remotely fazed. Immediately afterwards is when "The Decline of Spider-Man" begins.

I propose that the Peter and MJ we're reading about are genuinely Peter and MJ, but only their "weaker" traits. That's why Peter's confidence is gone, and he's so easily out shined by Doc Ock. Mary Jane no longer the woman she once was, since that part of her character has been stolen from her.

Mephisto posses the Strong parts of their souls, and is torturing them, while making the "weak parts" suffer too. It's basically the same as taking the soul, just making them miserable. He's probably hoping he can drag the whole soul to his domain once they die. Since I don't think Mephisto could be fooled by a mortal.

It could be entirely possible that through Superior Spider-Man Dan Slott has set a plan to remove the weakness from Spider-Man. The Strong part of their Souls will come back to reclaim their bodies, once the deal is broken. Dan Slott is trying to retcon One More Day and put back ALL the continuity. The deal will be broken and then Peter will claim his body back. But that won't happen for a while, since Marvel wants to get what they can out of Superior first.

Thoughts?

I've been praying for this since One More Day. Except where your arguement is well thought out and reasoned my arguement has been to whine, moan, yell and sob softly to myself in a corner.

#49 Posted by clonesaga2099 (96 posts) - - Show Bio

@muhabba: It's cool; after all it's just because you've invested in the character of Spider-Man. I also went into a fit of rage after the initial dealing with Mephisto; I burnt the comic in my fire place and stopped buying ALL Marvel comics. I checked back in periodically for the "Big Time" arc, but it was kind of meh and I refuse to buy Superior.

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