Sonic the Hedgehog = Dragonball Z?

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#1 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm sure I'm not the only person who has noticed t hat Sonic the Hedgehog has some great similarities to Dragonball Z.

Main characters:

Sonic/Goku: First off we have Sonic, a care free hero who who loves adventure and we have Goku, a carefree hero who loves to fight for the fun of it. Both are thought of their universe's greatest hero/fighters.

Shadow/Vegeta: We got a cocky proud Hedgehog who is the rival of the main character and a proud alien who wants nothing but to defeat Goku. Both end up becoming heroes later on.

Silver/Trunks: Silver is a hedgehog from the future who comes back to stop his world from becoming destroyed. Trunks is the future son of Vegeta and Bulma who comes back to stop andriod from destroying the world.

Hedgehogs/Saiyans: The hedgehogs and Saiyans are clearly the most powerful of each universe and are able to go into a "super" form where their hair glows and spikes upward.

Anyone notice anything else?

#2 Posted by T.J. Magnum (27685 posts) - - Show Bio

.............................uh no :)

#3 Posted by Resonate (15054 posts) - - Show Bio
Nobody said:
"I'm sure I'm not the only person who has noticed t hat Sonic the Hedgehog has some great similarities to Dragonball Z.

Main characters:

Sonic/Goku: First off we have Sonic, a care free hero who who loves adventure and we have Goku, a carefree hero who loves to fight for the fun of it. Both are thought of their universe's greatest hero/fighters.

Shadow/Vegeta: We got a cocky proud Hedgehog who is the rival of the main character and a proud alien who wants nothing but to defeat Goku. Both end up becoming heroes later on.

Silver/Trunks: Silver is a hedgehog from the future who comes back to stop his world from becoming destroyed. Trunks is the future son of Vegeta and Bulma who comes back to stop andriod from destroying the world.

Hedgehogs/Saiyans: The hedgehogs and Saiyans are clearly the most powerful of each universe and are able to go into a "super" form where their hair glows and spikes upward.

Anyone notice anything else?
"
eh, the spiking hair can hardly be mentioned anymore, DBZ started the golden power up trend and it spread like flies to tons of anime
#4 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
T.J. Magnum said:
".............................uh no :)

"
LIES! I know there's more:P ....not really.
#5 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
Resonate said:
"Nobody said:
"I'm sure I'm not the only person who has noticed t hat Sonic the Hedgehog has some great similarities to Dragonball Z.

Main characters:

Sonic/Goku: First off we have Sonic, a care free hero who who loves adventure and we have Goku, a carefree hero who loves to fight for the fun of it. Both are thought of their universe's greatest hero/fighters.

Shadow/Vegeta: We got a cocky proud Hedgehog who is the rival of the main character and a proud alien who wants nothing but to defeat Goku. Both end up becoming heroes later on.

Silver/Trunks: Silver is a hedgehog from the future who comes back to stop his world from becoming destroyed. Trunks is the future son of Vegeta and Bulma who comes back to stop andriod from destroying the world.

Hedgehogs/Saiyans: The hedgehogs and Saiyans are clearly the most powerful of each universe and are able to go into a "super" form where their hair glows and spikes upward.

Anyone notice anything else?
"
eh, the spiking hair can hardly be mentioned anymore, DBZ started the golden power up trend and it spread like flies to tons of anime
"
Yeah but only the Saiyans and the Hedgehogs do it.
#6 Posted by danhimself (22485 posts) - - Show Bio

dragonball's stories arent exactly unique

#7 Posted by T.J. Magnum (27685 posts) - - Show Bio
Nobody said:
"T.J. Magnum said:
".............................uh no :)

"
LIES! I know there's more:P ....not really.
"
well not untill you told me.
#8 Posted by Resonate (15054 posts) - - Show Bio
Nobody said:
"Resonate said:
"Nobody said:
"I'm sure I'm not the only person who has noticed t hat Sonic the Hedgehog has some great similarities to Dragonball Z.

Main characters:

Sonic/Goku: First off we have Sonic, a care free hero who who loves adventure and we have Goku, a carefree hero who loves to fight for the fun of it. Both are thought of their universe's greatest hero/fighters.

Shadow/Vegeta: We got a cocky proud Hedgehog who is the rival of the main character and a proud alien who wants nothing but to defeat Goku. Both end up becoming heroes later on.

Silver/Trunks: Silver is a hedgehog from the future who comes back to stop his world from becoming destroyed. Trunks is the future son of Vegeta and Bulma who comes back to stop andriod from destroying the world.

Hedgehogs/Saiyans: The hedgehogs and Saiyans are clearly the most powerful of each universe and are able to go into a "super" form where their hair glows and spikes upward.

Anyone notice anything else?
"
eh, the spiking hair can hardly be mentioned anymore, DBZ started the golden power up trend and it spread like flies to tons of anime
"
Yeah but only the Saiyans and the Hedgehogs do it.
"
, as can the gundams
#9 Posted by Methos (40103 posts) - - Show Bio
Resonate said:
eh, the spiking hair can hardly be mentioned anymore, DBZ started the golden power up trend and it spread like flies to tons of anime
i'm reasonably sure Sonic started the trend with Super Sonic making his first appearance in 1992.,,

M
#10 Posted by Resonate (15054 posts) - - Show Bio
Methos said:
"Resonate said:
eh, the spiking hair can hardly be mentioned anymore, DBZ started the golden power up trend and it spread like flies to tons of anime
i'm reasonably sure Sonic started the trend with Super Sonic making his first appearance in 1992.,,

M
"
wow, I didnt know that Super Sonic came that early....DBZ in Japan came out sometime in the late 80's, Ithink, Ill have to look up when the first ss transformation was made. But Im pretty sure than DBZ started the trend with the anime power up screaming stuff
#11 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
Methos said:
"Resonate said:
eh, the spiking hair can hardly be mentioned anymore, DBZ started the golden power up trend and it spread like flies to tons of anime
i'm reasonably sure Sonic started the trend with Super Sonic making his first appearance in 1992.,,

M
"
Thats a good point.
#12 Posted by Methos (40103 posts) - - Show Bio
Resonate said:
wow, I didnt know that Super Sonic came that early....DBZ in Japan came out sometime in the late 80's, Ithink, Ill have to look up when the first ss transformation was made. But Im pretty sure than DBZ started the trend with the anime power up screaming stuff

The screaming possibly...

Super Sonic made his way into the games in Sonic The Hedgehog 2 (Game for Sega Genesis) which was launched in 1992...

can't speak for when DBZ jumped on the bandwagon though

M
#13 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio

Sonic screamed when he went Super Sonic, even in his original appearance.

#14 Posted by danhimself (22485 posts) - - Show Bio

dragonball z came first it ran originally in the 80's and gt started in 90's

#15 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
danhimself said:
"dragonball z came first it ran originally in the 80's and gt started in 90's"
Yeah but when did Goku go super?
#16 Posted by danhimself (22485 posts) - - Show Bio
Nobody said:
"danhimself said:
"dragonball z came first it ran originally in the 80's and gt started in 90's"
Yeah but when did Goku go super?
"

i've found the original air dates for america but i can't find them for japan...i do know that it was atleast a 10 year gap between the 2
#17 Posted by Resonate (15054 posts) - - Show Bio
Nobody said:
"Sonic screamed when he went Super Sonic, even in his original appearance.
"
yeah, he may have done it first, but DBZ set it as a trend no doubt
#18 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
Nobody said:
"I'm sure I'm not the only person who has noticed t hat Sonic the Hedgehog has some great similarities to Dragonball Z.

Main characters:

Sonic/Goku: First off we have Sonic, a care free hero who who loves adventure and we have Goku, a carefree hero who loves to fight for the fun of it. Both are thought of their universe's greatest hero/fighters.

Shadow/Vegeta: We got a cocky proud Hedgehog who is the rival of the main character and a proud alien who wants nothing but to defeat Goku. Both end up becoming heroes later on.

Silver/Trunks: Silver is a hedgehog from the future who comes back to stop his world from becoming destroyed. Trunks is the future son of Vegeta and Bulma who comes back to stop andriod from destroying the world.

Hedgehogs/Saiyans: The hedgehogs and Saiyans are clearly the most powerful of each universe and are able to go into a "super" form where their hair glows and spikes upward.

Anyone notice anything else?
"
Sonic is a complete rip-off of Goku.They fly the same in Super\SSJ mode,There eyes turn green,they scream,they have a gold aura.DBZ aired in Japan in 1989..but didn't air in the states until 96.I'm sure Sega had seen DBZ before the created Sonic.Sonics spikes look extremely similar to the hair of Goku's brother Turles and to Goku's SSJ3 form.I noticed this so long ago.
Moderator
#19 Posted by danhimself (22485 posts) - - Show Bio
danhimself said:
"Nobody said:
"danhimself said:
"dragonball z came first it ran originally in the 80's and gt started in 90's"
Yeah but when did Goku go super?
"

i've found the original air dates for america but i can't find them for japan...i do know that it was atleast a 10 year gap between the 2"

dragonball z first started on april 26, 1989 and ran until january 31 1996
#20 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"Nobody said:
"I'm sure I'm not the only person who has noticed t hat Sonic the Hedgehog has some great similarities to Dragonball Z.

Main characters:

Sonic/Goku: First off we have Sonic, a care free hero who who loves adventure and we have Goku, a carefree hero who loves to fight for the fun of it. Both are thought of their universe's greatest hero/fighters.

Shadow/Vegeta: We got a cocky proud Hedgehog who is the rival of the main character and a proud alien who wants nothing but to defeat Goku. Both end up becoming heroes later on.

Silver/Trunks: Silver is a hedgehog from the future who comes back to stop his world from becoming destroyed. Trunks is the future son of Vegeta and Bulma who comes back to stop andriod from destroying the world.

Hedgehogs/Saiyans: The hedgehogs and Saiyans are clearly the most powerful of each universe and are able to go into a "super" form where their hair glows and spikes upward.

Anyone notice anything else?
"
Sonic is a complete rip-off of Goku.They fly the same in Super\SSJ mode,There eyes turn green,they scream,they have a gold aura.DBZ aired in Japan in 1989..but didn't air in the states until 96.I'm sure Sega had seen DBZ before the created Sonic.Sonics spikes look extremely similar to the hair of Goku's brother Turles and to Goku's SSJ3 form.I noticed this so long ago."

Moderator
#21 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"Nobody said:
"I'm sure I'm not the only person who has noticed t hat Sonic the Hedgehog has some great similarities to Dragonball Z.

Main characters:

Sonic/Goku: First off we have Sonic, a care free hero who who loves adventure and we have Goku, a carefree hero who loves to fight for the fun of it. Both are thought of their universe's greatest hero/fighters.

Shadow/Vegeta: We got a cocky proud Hedgehog who is the rival of the main character and a proud alien who wants nothing but to defeat Goku. Both end up becoming heroes later on.

Silver/Trunks: Silver is a hedgehog from the future who comes back to stop his world from becoming destroyed. Trunks is the future son of Vegeta and Bulma who comes back to stop andriod from destroying the world.

Hedgehogs/Saiyans: The hedgehogs and Saiyans are clearly the most powerful of each universe and are able to go into a "super" form where their hair glows and spikes upward.

Anyone notice anything else?
"
Sonic is a complete rip-off of Goku.They fly the same in Super\SSJ mode,There eyes turn green,they scream,they have a gold aura.DBZ aired in Japan in 1989..but didn't air in the states until 96.I'm sure Sega had seen DBZ before the created Sonic.Sonics spikes look extremely similar to the hair of Goku's brother Turles and to Goku's SSJ3 form.I noticed this so long ago."
Actually Sonic's eyes are now usually green and when he turns super they turn red. DBZ started before Sonic was made in 1991, but who went super first? Sonic in 1992 or Goku in ???
#22 Posted by Resonate (15054 posts) - - Show Bio
danhimself said:
"danhimself said:
"Nobody said:
"danhimself said:
"dragonball z came first it ran originally in the 80's and gt started in 90's"
Yeah but when did Goku go super?
"

i've found the original air dates for america but i can't find them for japan...i do know that it was atleast a 10 year gap between the 2"

dragonball z first started on april 26, 1989 and ran until january 31 1996"
need to find out if he went Super Saiyan before 1992 though

if thats the case though, and thats how long it ran, I wouldnt be surprised if Goku did pull it off before Super Sonic, or at least around the same time
#23 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
Resonate said:
"danhimself said:
"danhimself said:
"Nobody said:
"danhimself said:
"dragonball z came first it ran originally in the 80's and gt started in 90's"
Yeah but when did Goku go super?
"

i've found the original air dates for america but i can't find them for japan...i do know that it was atleast a 10 year gap between the 2"

dragonball z first started on april 26, 1989 and ran until january 31 1996"
need to find out if he went Super Saiyan before 1992 though

if thats the case though, and thats how long it ran, I wouldnt be surprised if Goku did pull it off before Super Sonic, or at least around the same time
"
He went Super Saiyan in '92.
Moderator
#24 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"Resonate said:
"danhimself said:
"danhimself said:
"Nobody said:
"danhimself said:
"dragonball z came first it ran originally in the 80's and gt started in 90's"
Yeah but when did Goku go super?
"

i've found the original air dates for america but i can't find them for japan...i do know that it was atleast a 10 year gap between the 2"

dragonball z first started on april 26, 1989 and ran until january 31 1996"
need to find out if he went Super Saiyan before 1992 though

if thats the case though, and thats how long it ran, I wouldnt be surprised if Goku did pull it off before Super Sonic, or at least around the same time
"
He went Super Saiyan in '92."
Well then it was the same year. So that probably means the idea of the "Super" was being made at the same time and neither copied each other on it.
#25 Posted by danhimself (22485 posts) - - Show Bio
Resonate said:
"danhimself said:
"danhimself said:
"Nobody said:
"danhimself said:
"dragonball z came first it ran originally in the 80's and gt started in 90's"
Yeah but when did Goku go super?
"

i've found the original air dates for america but i can't find them for japan...i do know that it was atleast a 10 year gap between the 2"

dragonball z first started on april 26, 1989 and ran until january 31 1996"
need to find out if he went Super Saiyan before 1992 though

if thats the case though, and thats how long it ran, I wouldnt be surprised if Goku did pull it off before Super Sonic, or at least around the same time
"

i would say most likely they did it at or about the same time either way it's no big deal since lots of japanese manga and anime characters have super modes and i'm sure neither dbz or sonic was the first
#26 Posted by Methos (40103 posts) - - Show Bio
Resonate said:
need to find out if he went Super Saiyan before 1992 though

if thats the case though, and thats how long it ran, I wouldnt be surprised if Goku did pull it off before Super Sonic, or at least around the same time

The first character to transform into a Super Saiyan is the series' main protagonist Son Goku, in volume 27 of the 42 volume manga series...

which according to MGAonline was aired in 1994...

two clean years after Sonic

looks like sonic won the shiny yellow hair race afterall

M



#27 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
danhimself said:
"Resonate said:
"danhimself said:
"danhimself said:
"Nobody said:
"danhimself said:
"dragonball z came first it ran originally in the 80's and gt started in 90's"
Yeah but when did Goku go super?
"

i've found the original air dates for america but i can't find them for japan...i do know that it was atleast a 10 year gap between the 2"

dragonball z first started on april 26, 1989 and ran until january 31 1996"
need to find out if he went Super Saiyan before 1992 though

if thats the case though, and thats how long it ran, I wouldnt be surprised if Goku did pull it off before Super Sonic, or at least around the same time
"

i would say most likely they did it at or about the same time either way it's no big deal since lots of japanese manga and anime characters have super modes and i'm sure neither dbz or sonic was the first"
Most Anime characters who have super modes don't turn gold with green eyes.
Moderator
#28 Posted by Resonate (15054 posts) - - Show Bio
Nobody said:
"Vance Astro said:
"Resonate said:
"danhimself said:
"danhimself said:
"Nobody said:
"danhimself said:
"dragonball z came first it ran originally in the 80's and gt started in 90's"
Yeah but when did Goku go super?
"

i've found the original air dates for america but i can't find them for japan...i do know that it was atleast a 10 year gap between the 2"

dragonball z first started on april 26, 1989 and ran until january 31 1996"
need to find out if he went Super Saiyan before 1992 though

if thats the case though, and thats how long it ran, I wouldnt be surprised if Goku did pull it off before Super Sonic, or at least around the same time
"
He went Super Saiyan in '92."
Well then it was the same year. So that probably means the idea of the "Super" was being made at the same time and neither copied each other on it.
"
yeah, so now comes in the dates thing...but, the idea isnt all that hard to come up with when you think about it
#29 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
Methos said:
"Resonate said:
need to find out if he went Super Saiyan before 1992 though

if thats the case though, and thats how long it ran, I wouldnt be surprised if Goku did pull it off before Super Sonic, or at least around the same time

The first character to transform into a Super Saiyan is the series' main protagonist Son Goku, in volume 27 of the 42 volume manga series...

which according to MGAonline was aired in 1994...

two clean years after Sonic

looks like sonic won the shiny yellow hair race afterall

M



"
How do you do it?
#30 Posted by Methos (40103 posts) - - Show Bio
Nobody said:
How do you do it?

I research things...

it's not that hard lol

M
#31 Posted by Resonate (15054 posts) - - Show Bio
Methos said:
"Resonate said:
need to find out if he went Super Saiyan before 1992 though

if thats the case though, and thats how long it ran, I wouldnt be surprised if Goku did pull it off before Super Sonic, or at least around the same time

The first character to transform into a Super Saiyan is the series' main protagonist Son Goku, in volume 27 of the 42 volume manga series...

which according to MGAonline was aired in 1994...

two clean years after Sonic

looks like sonic won the shiny yellow hair race afterall

M



"
hahaha, master of all useless knowledge xD
#32 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
Methos said:
"Nobody said:
How do you do it?

I research things...

it's not that hard lol

M
"
I found the Volume 27 thing but not the release date on it.
#33 Posted by danhimself (22485 posts) - - Show Bio
Methos said:
"Resonate said:
need to find out if he went Super Saiyan before 1992 though

if thats the case though, and thats how long it ran, I wouldnt be surprised if Goku did pull it off before Super Sonic, or at least around the same time

The first character to transform into a Super Saiyan is the series' main protagonist Son Goku, in volume 27 of the 42 volume manga series...

which according to MGAonline was aired in 1994...

two clean years after Sonic

looks like sonic won the shiny yellow hair race afterall

M



"

you're an information finding beast!! GRRRRRRRR
#34 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio

SSJ's existed before Goku became one.

Moderator
#35 Edited by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"SSJ's existed before Goku became one."
But not the way they looked.
#36 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
Nobody said:
"Vance Astro said:
"SSJ's existed before Goku became one."
But not the way they looked.
"

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Image:False_Super_Saiyan.PNG

Goku reached a form called False SSJ in 91 against Lord Slug.
Moderator
#37 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"Nobody said:
"Vance Astro said:
"SSJ's existed before Goku became one."
But not the way they looked.
"

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Image:False_Super_Saiyan.PNG

Goku reached a form called False SSJ in 91 against Lord Slug.
"
You realize we are talking about the Manga which came out before this.
#38 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
Nobody said:
"Vance Astro said:
"Nobody said:
"Vance Astro said:
"SSJ's existed before Goku became one."
But not the way they looked.
"

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Image:False_Super_Saiyan.PNG

Goku reached a form called False SSJ in 91 against Lord Slug.
"
You realize we are talking about the Manga which came out before this.
"
Ok.
Moderator
#39 Posted by Resonate (15054 posts) - - Show Bio

eh, its not really something you need to argue about, we get the general time zone of it, and we know that neither really ripped off the other....now, where did G-Gundam rip off its golden form o_O

#40 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
Resonate said:
"eh, its not really something you need to argue about, we get the general time zone of it, and we know that neither really ripped off the other....now, where did G-Gundam rip off its golden form o_O
"
The Gundam is called Shining Gundam..why wouldn't it turn gold?
Moderator
#41 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance: I take that back. If Wikipedia is right it says Lord Slug movie was released in 1991 and Super Sonic didn't come till 1992.

#42 Edited by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
Nobody said:
"@Vance: I take that back. If Wikipedia is right it says Lord Slug movie was released in 1991 and Super Sonic didn't come till 1992.
"
YAY! 
Moderator
#43 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"Nobody said:
"@Vance: I take that back. If Wikipedia is right it says Lord Slug movie was released in 1991 and Super Sonic didn't come till 1992.
"
YAY! lol.They also recently changed the color of Sonics eyes..probably to make it seem less Super Saiyan."
I think his eyes always turned red, but they did recently change their natural color to green.

Also according to wikipedia, it says Goku's Super Form was aired in Japan in June 26, 1991. I can't say for sure if this is correct though cause it is wikipedia.
#44 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
Nobody said:
"Vance Astro said:
"Nobody said:
"@Vance: I take that back. If Wikipedia is right it says Lord Slug movie was released in 1991 and Super Sonic didn't come till 1992.
"
YAY! lol.They also recently changed the color of Sonics eyes..probably to make it seem less Super Saiyan."
I think his eyes always turned red, but they did recently change their natural color to green.

Also according to wikipedia, it says Goku's Super Form was aired in Japan in June 26, 1991. I can't say for sure if this is correct though cause it is wikipedia.
"
Your right I edited my post.Wiki does site it's sources though.
Moderator
#45 Posted by Methos (40103 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
Your right I edited my post.Wiki does site it's sources though."
  ok, i'll double check my sources but i for one never trust Wiki because it's just full of fanboy's posting incorrect information

M
#46 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"Nobody said:
"Vance Astro said:
"Nobody said:
"@Vance: I take that back. If Wikipedia is right it says Lord Slug movie was released in 1991 and Super Sonic didn't come till 1992.
"
YAY! lol.They also recently changed the color of Sonics eyes..probably to make it seem less Super Saiyan."
I think his eyes always turned red, but they did recently change their natural color to green.

Also according to wikipedia, it says Goku's Super Form was aired in Japan in June 26, 1991. I can't say for sure if this is correct though cause it is wikipedia.
"
Your right I edited my post.Wiki does site it's sources though."
I'll have to see where they got it.
#47 Edited by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
Methos said:
"Vance Astro said:
Your right I edited my post.Wiki does site it's sources though."
  ok, i'll double check my sources but i for one never trust Wiki because it's just full of fanboy's posting incorrect information

M
"
There are numbers next to some of the information and if you click on it ..it will highlight the source at the bottom.Animenewsnetwork.com has the same information though.
Moderator
#48 Posted by Methos (40103 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
There are numbers next to some of the information and if you click on it ..it will highlight the source at the bottom."

yeah, i know how to use it...

M
#49 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
Methos said:
"Vance Astro said:
There are numbers next to some of the information and if you click on it ..it will highlight the source at the bottom."

yeah, i know how to use it...

M
"
Animenewsnetwork has the same information.
Moderator
#50 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"Methos said:
"Vance Astro said:
There are numbers next to some of the information and if you click on it ..it will highlight the source at the bottom."

yeah, i know how to use it...

M
"
Animenewsnetwork has the same information."
Thats where wiki got their info from.

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