Shuma Gorath Chronology

#1 Edited by Killemall (18173 posts) - - Show Bio

Background

Who or what exactly is Shuma Gorath?

Well as with all demons its very hard to pin-point the entire details about a particular demon, specially an extradimensional one, however, based on what i have collected of Shuma Gorath, here is what i have drawn of what Shuma Gorath actually is.

We know Shuma Gorath is a class 3 demon (Marvel Handbook 2005)

Demons in marvel univese is classified into 3 types, not based on their power level but rather based on their origin and appearence. A class 3 demon is one that was born in a dimension other than that of the earth (extradimensional) and does not have a humanide appearence. This is explained below, from a very old Marvel Handbook 1983

The same thing is again said on Marvel Handbook 1986, just putting this as its easier to read

Marvel Glossary also gives us a definition of what extra-dimensional actually means:

Shuma Gorath's bio in Marvel Handbook 2005 helps up fill in more information

Shuma Gorath is likely impossible to destroy permanently (Dr. Strange had achieved something a lot closer)

Virtually omnipotent in his own realm

Can draw energies from other be it mystical or otherwise

It has been said that he is one of the primal power of Chaos, and Atlantis sorcerer are beyond inadequate to even deal with problem concerning Shuma Gorath (Invaders Now 04)

It also gives us a power grid, bonus ;)

Kalu believes Mephisto and Sattanis are nothing compared to Shuma Gorath, but this is said in regards to when Dr. Strange was about to meet Shuma Gorath in his own domain, so i take this as in his domain Shuma Gorath >> Mephisto and Sattanis (Strange Tales, Vol 2, 13)

Publication History

Now lets begin with his publication history

Marvel Premier 09: Shuma Gorath sitting in his own dimension takes control of Ancient One's mind on earth.

Marvel Premier 10: Dr. Strange shrinks himself, enters AO mind, fights Shuma Gorath, is unable to beat him and his forced to kill Ancient One in order to prevent Shuma Gorath from entering Earth.

Phew! thats well pretty much the entire issue there, took me ages to load.

Marvel handbook 2005 vouches the entire incident

We also see a reference to this incident in Invaders Now 04

Marvel Premier 14: Shuma Gorath was defeated and banished by Sies Neg, but this honestly doesnt tell us a lot given Sies-Neg was pretty close to ascending to God Hood and after banishing Shuma Gorath he goes on to re-create the whole universe.

Marvel Handbook 2005 verifies the whole incident

There is a subtle reference to his loss in the hands of Sise Neg in Invaders Now 04, where one few items that could help purge Shuma Gorath influence on earth was a flower name Sise Neg.

Strange Tales Volume 2, 13: Dr. Strange is trying to enter Shuma Gorath's realm in order to stop him, he is force to fight Arioch one of Shuma Gorath's minion, and in the fight ends up absorbing Arioch. This i put in because this is important on how Dr. Strange did the near impossible task of beating Shuma Gorath in his own realm.

Strange Tales volume 2, 14: Here Dr. Strange does the near impossible, beats Shuma Gorath in his own realm. This is however done using plot, first by being force to use black magic against Arioch and having absorbed him, this help Dr. Strange transform to something closer to shuma gorath, leading him to actually absorb Shuma Gorath's essence and finally beat him. In essence, because of plot, Shuma Gorath ended up fighting his very own powers, and that is what destroyed him

Since this is a little difficult idea lets spend a bit more time trying to understand what happened and of course i'll follow up with marvel bio to substantiate it.

Firstly, when Dr. Strange meets Shuma Gorath he states how Dr. Strange has changed because of the use of Black Magic.

A little philosophy "He who fights too long with Dragons becomes a Dragon himself"

So the use of black magic changed him and Shuma Gorath notes if you fight long enough with the dragon you become dragon himself, i take this to mean you fight with Shuma Gorath long enough you become Gorath himself.

This panel depicts more change that has occurred in Dr. Strange, he is becoming more and more aggressive, understandable as he is fighting a primal god of chaos and tapping into similar energy

More reference straight from Shuma Gorath that he has changed.

Then Shuma Gorath finally comments on how he was absorbing his own powers

Marvel handbook 2005 verifies it, and it also points that it was the use of black magic that led him to become Shuma Gorath

Doctor Strange volume 2, 15: Dr. Strange now has become Shuma Gorath, and is so powerful than his mere existence would destroy Galaxies (an unsubstantiated claim apart from the statement), he then slowly gives away his power turning back to Dr. Strange

Fantastic Four 314: The fight between Shuma Gorath and Dr. Strange had the potential to destroy ALL of neither realms.

Conan the Barbarian, volume 1, 260: Conan beat Shuma Gorath using Iron Bound Books

Despite the weird appearance this is canon to Shuma Gorath's chronology, and is substantiated by Marvel Handbook 2005

Sorry i dont have bios after this point, if someone can find supporting scans from bio please feel free to add them

Marvel Knights 4, Issue 26: Nicolas Scratch tricks Fantastic Four into releasing Shuma Gorath from his prison, as the spell has to be read by someone with pure heart and presumably nice rack ;)

Marvel Knights 4, Issue 27: We see a new weakness so Shuma Gorath, vertigo. We also see FF helpless against Gorath, but apart from Johnny the rest were depowered by drinking a tea that depowers them.

Enters Dr. Strange who knowing he cant beat him in presence of Chaos, teleports him in the stone henge and beats him there, the fight sadly takes place off panel.

Reference to this was placed during Invaders 04

Wolverine First Class, Issue 12: Quoggoth, one of the creations of Shuma Gorath, rebels against Shuma, is defeated by Shuma who fails to kill him so Shuma imprisons him here on Earth.

Invaders Now, Issue 04: Shuma Gorath's powers were invoked to bring dead people back to life, and the spell would have succeeded had the dead not refused to come back.

Invaders Now 05: Vision poked its eye, then used the spear of destiny to close the portal, thereby preventing Shuma Gorath from entering earth.

He was next mentioned during Thanos Imperative, I am a little hesitant to use those as Shuma Gorath himself never cleared appeared on panel, but if i get request to put those up i shall.

#2 Posted by Veshark (9057 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, fantastic effort and numerous scans here! Even though I'm not much of a Strange reader, I've always liked the idea of Shuma-Gorath, as I'm a big fan of H.P. Lovecraft and the Cthulhu Mythos. Can't go wrong with adding two of my favorite concepts - superheroes and eldritch entities - together.

Very informative and it made for good reading. Nicely done.

#3 Posted by Killemall (18173 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veshark: Thanks, but i think you read the thread before it was completed (i posted half the scans initially coz my internet is super slow), the thread is complete as of now feel free to read on. :)

till then lemme add this on my blog :)

#4 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio

Its cute looking and powerful

#5 Posted by Teerack (5202 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: That power grid is from marvel vs capcom and is about game mechanics. It's not by any means a good representational of his stats.

#6 Posted by Veshark (9057 posts) - - Show Bio

Ah alright then. They should definitely use Shuma in a crossover of some sort, this Old One needs more mainstream attention!

#7 Posted by Killemall (18173 posts) - - Show Bio

@Teerack said:

@Killemall: That power grid is from marvel vs capcom and is about game mechanics. It's not by any means a good representational of his stats.

Its not from Marvel vs Capcom, its from Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe , Volume 4, Issue no 18 (2005) called The Book of Horros. Its an official publication related to marvel universe nothing to do with Marvel vs Capcom, here is the full page

#8 Posted by Killemall (18173 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shuma-Gorath: Mr. Gorath i tried to created your biography :p wanna correct, add anything here? If nothing else at least give us your autograph.

#9 Posted by Teerack (5202 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: Oh okay nvm. I thought it was from the game :P

#10 Posted by Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe (310 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

Kalu believes Mephisto and Sattanis are nothing compared to Shuma Gorath, but this is said in regards to when Dr. Strange was about to meet Shuma Gorath in his own domain, so i take this as in his domain Shuma Gorath >> Mephisto and Sattanis (Strange Tales, Vol 2, 13)

They were still in a realm below that of Arioch (putting them 998 planes away from Earth), so it wasn't even Shuma-Gorath's full power that made Mephisto and Satannish seem that pitifully weak compared to Shuma.

Doctor Strange volume 2, 15: Dr. Strange now has become Shuma Gorath, and is so powerful than his mere existence would destroy Galaxies (an unsubstantiated claim apart from the statement)

It's not unsubstantiated. The reason Kaluu even made the statement in the first place was because when he tried to open the gateway into the realm below the energy itself destroyed that portal in a reaction and illuminated Strange with power. It's even said later on in the story that Strange had absorbed infinite power within him and Kaluu was not sure if he had the right to convince Strange to turn away from a higher plane of existence.

#11 Posted by Killemall (18173 posts) - - Show Bio

@Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe said:

They were still in a realm below that of Arioch (putting them 998 planes away from Earth), so it wasn't even Shuma-Gorath's full power that made Mephisto and Satannish seem that pitifully weak compared to Shuma.

Actually given the circumstance, and context in which it was spoken, and given Dr. Strange wanted Kaluu to go with him all the way up to Shuma's realm, while Kaluu is saying i cant go beyond this level, sort of points out that, he was referring to Shuma's power level on his home dimension. There is a lot of leeway in this, and how you interpret this particular statement, that just what i took out of it, anyone else who reads the series are likely to get a completely different understanding.

BTW where is the 998 planes thing coming from? I have seen this been mentioned before, i cant seem to find anything that referring to this. What particular statement am i missing?

It's not unsubstantiated. The reason Kaluu even made the statement in the first place was because when he tried to open the gateway into the realm below the energy itself destroyed that portal in a reaction and illuminated Strange with power. It's even said later on in the story that Strange had absorbed infinite power within him and Kaluu was not sure if he had the right to convince Strange to turn away from a higher plane of existence.

We can agree to disagree here, my take on interpreting a particular feat (which seem to be consistent with how senior marvel editor Tom Brevroot, and couple of marvel writers Jonathan Hickman and Dan Slott interpret a particular feat) is that, a claim that is depicted in panel is a substantiated claim, rest are unsubstantiated and bodering on hyperboles. For example, Odin vs Set not only destroyed multiple galaxies, it was said that their fight near tore the very fabric of multiverse, but not a single galaxy was shown being destroyed on panel. In contrast, when Surtur created the twilight sword, it was said he destroyed a galaxy, we actually see a galaxy blow up in the art, and that particular instance is referred to in the bios as well.

I believe, and still strongly maintain, that stated suggesting Dr. Strange appearence in out plane of existence (that should resonable be 616 universe right? ) would destroy Galaxies, is an unsubstantiated claim, for a simple reason that, not one single galaxy was shown being destroyed on panel.

#12 Edited by Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe (310 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe said:

They were still in a realm below that of Arioch (putting them 998 planes away from Earth), so it wasn't even Shuma-Gorath's full power that made Mephisto and Satannish seem that pitifully weak compared to Shuma.

Actually given the circumstance, and context in which it was spoken, and given Dr. Strange wanted Kaluu to go with him all the way up to Shuma's realm, while Kaluu is saying i cant go beyond this level, sort of points out that, he was referring to Shuma's power level on his home dimension. There is a lot of leeway in this, and how you interpret this particular statement, that just what i took out of it, anyone else who reads the series are likely to get a completely different understanding.

The reason I say he was speaking about the power in the realm he was presently in and not Shuma's home dimension power is because of what is said afterward. When Strange comes back from fighting Shuma-Gorath, he finds that Kaluu has placed a spell of illusion in the entire area and confesses that the realm's energy was still slowly killing him even with the spell. Kaluu then has to ask Strange what became of the battle between him and Shuma-Gorath and wonders whether or not he was victorious in stopping him. That right there says to me that Kaluu could not even feel the energy in the realms beyond the one he was dying in at the time, because he didn't even know what the outcome of the battle between them was. If he had been able to detect the power of the realms beyond it, surely he would have noticed a power shift when Shuma-Gorath's shell was destroyed.

BTW where is the 998 planes thing coming from? I have seen this been mentioned before, i cant seem to find anything that referring to this. What particular statement am i missing?

It was somewhere in the arc but I can't remember off the top of my head. - do you know where it's said?

@Killemall said:

We can agree to disagree here, my take on interpreting a particular feat (which seem to be consistent with how senior marvel editor Tom Brevroot, and couple of marvel writers Jonathan Hickman and Dan Slott interpret a particular feat) is that, a claim that is depicted in panel is a substantiated claim, rest are unsubstantiated and bodering on hyperboles. For example, Odin vs Set not only destroyed multiple galaxies, it was said that their fight near tore the very fabric of multiverse, but not a single galaxy was shown being destroyed on panel. In contrast, when Surtur created the twilight sword, it was said he destroyed a galaxy, we actually see a galaxy blow up in the art, and that particular instance is referred to in the bios as well.

I believe, and still strongly maintain, that stated suggesting Dr. Strange appearence in out plane of existence (that should resonable be 616 universe right? ) would destroy Galaxies, is an unsubstantiated claim, for a simple reason that, not one single galaxy was shown being destroyed on panel.

I agree that we're going to have to agree to disagree here. Despite it not being shown on panel (which had the reason given stated), to me Kaluu is one who would know what particular effects black magic would have, seeing as how he's invoked Chthon's Darkhold before and was locked in the dimension of Raggador for 500 years where he studied magic even further and learned a variety of spells.

#13 Edited by Setherial (209 posts) - - Show Bio

@Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe said:

@Killemall said:

BTW where is the 998 planes thing coming from? I have seen this been mentioned before, i cant seem to find anything that referring to this. What particular statement am i missing?

It was somewhere in the arc but I can't remember off the top of my head. - do you know where it's said?

First panel, top left.

#14 Posted by highaccuser (4901 posts) - - Show Bio
@Killemall  
Ok I have a few questions. Originally I thought strange beat shuma because arioch was stronger than him, but now it seems that strange one by being one with shuma. Did arioch have power of any significance at all? And did strange upon fusing with him? Or was it all just a matter of strange becoming shuma?  
The main way I judge Shuma's power is because I heard the vishanti tried to defeat him and free earth from his contol and couldn't, and this was outside of shuma's realm. Was that made up? Also 7AM said shuma destroyed may universes as part of her absurd reasoning that extradimension exceeds gauntlet and tribunal. That was wrong right? 

#15 Posted by Killemall (18173 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@Killemall
Ok I have a few questions. Originally I thought strange beat shuma because arioch was stronger than him, but now it seems that strange one by being one with shuma. Did arioch have power of any significance at all? And did strange upon fusing with him? Or was it all just a matter of strange becoming shuma?

Arioch was definitely not stronger than Shuma Gorath.

What Dr. Strange did in that quest was progressively defeat a lot of being that live in realms before Shuma Gorath. These lower realms, were more highly charged with magic than our 616 reality, and every one he faced in the series, in sort of gauntlet, was meant to be more powerful than the next being. He did beat a number of other character progressively before even facing Arioch, Victoria Bentley and Ghaszaszh Nyirh.

It was his use of black magic, and the fact that he absorbed Arioch is what allowed him to transform into a being capable of absorbing Shuma power and beating him.

Arioch has never before and again appeared in any comics apart from the listed in the scan above, its very hard to put a precise power level on him.

The main way I judge Shuma's power is because I heard the vishanti tried to defeat him and free earth from his contol and couldn't, and this was outside of shuma's realm. Was that made up?

This is made up, when Shuma Gorath was coming to earth, in his first story arc it was said that Vishanti once fought Shuma Gorath and that was all that is said. Anything else is made up.

Also 7AM said shuma destroyed may universes as part of her absurd reasoning that extradimension exceeds gauntlet and tribunal. That was wrong right?

That is just outright false.

Extra-dimension actually means realms (universe / pocket universe) that do not have earth in it.

Marvel Glossary also gives us a definition of what extra-dimensional actually means:

Asgard is extradimensional as well.

In fact Thor has on panel been called Extra-dimensional

As it reads : "As for the extradimesnional warrior who calls himself Thor."

So every Asgardians are extradimensional, so unless one believes Thor, and Odin are above Living Tribunal not sure what else to add.

Microverse, is also extra-dimensional as stated to on panel.

So either all those being shown on first panel drinking wine are all above LT or what 7am is saying is outright flase.

Dormammu is extra-dimensional as well and look at what Marvel Handbook 1992 says about him so i either believe marvel comics and handbook or belive what 7am think, dont know about you but as far as i am concerned it doesnt get any clear than this :)

#16 Posted by JackKnight (2969 posts) - - Show Bio

Well done @killemall! you deserve to be a moderators because of he amount of information you give us.

#17 Edited by Sise-Neg (52 posts) - - Show Bio

@setherial: @zorn_a_rust_red_scythe: @rumble_man: @veshark: @killemall: @jackknight

@highaccuser said:

@Killemall

Ok I have a few questions. Originally I thought strange beat shuma because arioch was stronger than him, but now it seems that strange one by being one with shuma. Did arioch have power of any significance at all? And did strange upon fusing with him? Or was it all just a matter of strange becoming shuma?

The main way I judge Shuma's power is because I heard the vishanti tried to defeat him and free earth from his contol and couldn't, and this was outside of shuma's realm. Was that made up? Also 7AM said shuma destroyed may universes as part of her absurd reasoning that extradimension exceeds gauntlet and tribunal. That was wrong right?

Regarding the fight between Strange/Arioch and Shuma-Gorath, the way I see it, even if Strange had the power of Ghaszaszh Nyirh, Victoria Bentley, and Arioch,he still wouldn't have been able to defeat Shuma-Gorath if he didn't have the Wings of Needless Sorrow. That's what allowed Strange to slowly drain Shuma's magic while fighting him and even before that, absorb Arioch by surprise in the first place. He later showed the artifact's magic draining ability against Dormammu while he possessed Strange's body .

The Wings is an OP weapon. But did you guys know it made a return in Mighty Avengers recently? Strange pulled it out to summon Shuma-Gorath. Was pretty awesome.

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