An X-Men event that will tear divisions down the mutant nation of Utopia. What mystery threatens the X-Men? Who are the new Hellfire Club? Will the young mutants survive the clash between Cyclops and Wolverine?
@FuriousWeasel: This is the third time they've fought. First one Cyclops won. The other was in an alternative universe. Cyclops and Wolverine are at best close matches and at worst Cyclops stomps him(like he did the first time)
He was obviously trying to take Scott out without killing him. Scott lost, principally, because he made it a hand to hand tussle by staying in range with Wolverine. Silly, silly Cyclops. He did so, presumably, because they were fighting over something in Wolverine's hand. Observe;
Claws through the arm, and soaks Scott's initial point blank blast partly with his claws. Wolverine maiming but not striking to kill.
Cyclops luckily bore a hole through the hand before it scrunched him. Wolverine, well, he doesn't get scrunched. Ever.
Here's where Scott reveals he ain't no tactical genius when it comes to Logan. Sentinel won him some range on Logan and what does he do? Runs back in close and tackles the Wolverine?? Idiot. Should have unloaded at range then pry whatever an unconscious Logan had in his hand that he wanted so badly. Notice Logan punches him in the face without his claws? That was game over right there. Wolverine then starts to lose it, pops the claws and Scott is saved, once again, by a Sentinels timely intervention.
Again, Wolverine holds back. Has Scott by the shirt (with claws out Scott would be impaled) and chooses again to try and KO him via a headbutt as opposed to kill him outright. Scott unloads in his face... again. So all those who claim Wolverine won't soak Cyclop's blasts, well, he has repeatedly done so thus far at point blank. Wolverine's durability can no longer be questioned folks. Logan, hand raised for the killing strike ... and Cyclops is once again saved by the bell.
Wolverine could have killed Cyclops many times in that tussle. He shows that he'll soak damage in an attempt to contain before resorting to killing. He holds back ... Marvel has to have him hold back... or most his adversaries would be dead within the first panel. Winner? Wolverine. Hands down. (In this scenario at least ... Cyclops was just dumb).
Shouldn't this be in the Battle Forum? I know that's cliche but this is a Wolverine Vs Cyclops thread, and not even technically. Anyways I stand on Cyclops side given he's not only beaten Wolverine before, multiple times, and yes point blank (Wolverine should no more have been be able to stand in even a mild optic blast from Cyclops, nor hasn't been able to before, than he should have been able to block an optic blast with his claws in the film and hold his position with his feet at the same time. Purely illogical). All this, and I stress again that Cyclops has beat him multiple times, and with ease, and the fact that Cyclop's has easily taken down Wolverines rival in any department, being speed, (Wolverine isn't faster than Northstar running or Nightcrawler in teleport) endurance, skill, ect. So really the question isn't how Cyclop's sustained the beating (he's sustained worse, so have many human endurance class characters, they sustain lighting bolts you know? comic characters are made of Nerf essentially), it's how Wolverine even got and even more so how he stayed at arms reach from Cyclops.
No, I think you're slightly misinformed. Wolverine's soaked the optics often before. He's goaded Scott into unloading on him on at least two ocassions I can think of. Both of which did not even come close to KO'ing him. Logan also deflected them and soaked a sustained blast during his stint as Death as well.
Cyclops out maneuvered Wolverine, without dropping him per se, before the character was established as the hand to hand master he is known as today in early issues of Uncanny; once in the savage land and once in a danger room session where the X-Men had him on the run (they were tricked into believing he was Dark Pheonix). Cyclops has KO'd Wolverine but once to my knowledge. Whereas Wolverine's fought off both Cyclops and Captain America at once. Dodging and blocking Cyclop's optics quite readily. Who wins is very much situational. In a close fight, Wolverine destroys (morals off). Cyclop's only chance is at range and even then Wolverine has shown himself able to soak, dodge and block Cyclop's blasts consistently.
I'm more curious how Wolverine has eyesight in a socket that's been blasted. You're clearly a Wolverine fanboy, the entire idea of "morals off" is actually rather idiotic, if morals are off it's not Wolverine anymore making the point moot.
Lets also not forget he had unloaded everything he had on the Sentinel moments before Wolverine was trying to order the evacuation of the island, with a huge Sentinel hundreds of yards away.
@Super_SoldierXII: Name all 10. Captain America and Cyclops when? I'm more curious how Wolverine has eyesight in a socket that's been blasted. You're clearly a Wolverine fanboy, the entire idea of "morals off" is actually rather idiotic, if morals are off it's not Wolverine anymore making the point moot. Lets also not forget he had unloaded everything he had on the Sentinel moments before Wolverine was trying to order the evacuation of the island, with a huge Sentinel hundreds of yards away.
- Name all 10 huh? Why? Figurative comment issued to drive a point. Thought it was obvious.
- Wolverine Origins. Very common and well known battle. Surprised you're unaware of this. After a battle with Nuke, Wolverine fights off both Cyclops and CA. Actually gets the better of Captain America who started the fight with the Muramasa blade to boot.
- Wolverine doesn't need eyesight. It's called enhanced senses. Can hear repressed ninja heartbeats from behind closed doors. Can spot Havok's scent in Cairo Egypt a day after Havok had already left. The list goes on. Thinking he can figure where Cyclops is while on top of him.
- Pulling the 'fanboy' card huh? Why? Because I think Wolverine wins in a very debatable fight... especially so in a scenario that gives him a chance to make it a hand to hand struggle? Or is it simply because my opinion runs contrary to yours? If you think Scott had a chance in close with Logan than I ain't the fanboy here. When someone tries to argue Wolverine beating Thor, throw the fanboy card out k? Wolverine vs. Cyclops is very, very debatable whether you believe so or not. Check the battle forums. You'll see I chose Cyclops winning whenever a range advantage was clearly present.
- Morals is a very apt battle forum term. I used it here to intimate Wolverine was obviously not trying to kill Scott. If he were, Scott would be dead. That is all. Not 'idiotic' but fact.
- OK. Scott unloaded on the Sentinel. So? Since when has Scott depleted all his power in one powerful blast? Name the issue or event please. I cannot think of one.
@Super_SoldierXII: Name all 10. Captain America and Cyclops when? I'm more curious how Wolverine has eyesight in a socket that's been blasted. You're clearly a Wolverine fanboy, the entire idea of "morals off" is actually rather idiotic, if morals are off it's not Wolverine anymore making the point moot. Lets also not forget he had unloaded everything he had on the Sentinel moments before Wolverine was trying to order the evacuation of the island, with a huge Sentinel hundreds of yards away.
- Why?
- Wolverine Origins. Very common and well known battle. Surprised you're unaware of this.
- Wolverine doesn't need eyesight. It's called enhanced senses. Can hear repressed ninja heartbeats from behind closed doors. Can spot Havok's scent in Cairo Egypt a day after Havok had already left. The list goes on. Thinking he can figure where Cyclops is while on top of him.
- Pulling the 'fanboy' card huh? Why? Because I think Wolverine wins in a very debatable fight... especially so in a scenario that gives him a chance to make it a hand to hand struggle? Because my opinion runs contrary to yours? If you think Scott had a chance in close with Logan than I ain't the fanboy here. When someone tries to argue Wolverine beating Thor, throw the fanboy card out k? Wolverine vs. Cyclops is very, very debatable whether you believe so or not. Check the battle forums. You'll see I chose Cyclops winning whenever a range advantage was clearly present.
- Morals is a very apt battle forum term. I used it here to intimate Wolverine was obviously not trying to kill Scott. If he were, Scott would be dead. That it all. Not 'idiotic' but fact.
- OK. Scott unloaded on the Sentinel. So? Since when has Scott depleted all his power in one blast? Name the issue or event please. I cannot think of one.
Why name all ten times you say Wolverine has beaten Cyclops? Because you present it like a fact.
Wolverine Origins is like saying "Your keys are over there," give a better direction, Wolverine Origins is a rather large collection.
Wolverine still has an eye after Cyclops blasted him in the face. It makes no sense.
It's not a card, it's very clear. You use very emotive language, as if someone something important gets determined by either of them winning.
Morals is an apt term in the battle forum. The battle forum is nothing but adolescent whining about who's hero can beat up someone else's hero. If you remove an aspect of a character to prove a point that makes the point moot because it's no longer the character.
Actually if you read the issue, Cyclops looks wasted after throwing that blast.
@Super_SoldierXII: Name all 10. Captain America and Cyclops when? I'm more curious how Wolverine has eyesight in a socket that's been blasted. You're clearly a Wolverine fanboy, the entire idea of "morals off" is actually rather idiotic, if morals are off it's not Wolverine anymore making the point moot. Lets also not forget he had unloaded everything he had on the Sentinel moments before Wolverine was trying to order the evacuation of the island, with a huge Sentinel hundreds of yards away.
- Why?
- Wolverine Origins. Very common and well known battle. Surprised you're unaware of this.
- Wolverine doesn't need eyesight. It's called enhanced senses. Can hear repressed ninja heartbeats from behind closed doors. Can spot Havok's scent in Cairo Egypt a day after Havok had already left. The list goes on. Thinking he can figure where Cyclops is while on top of him.
- Pulling the 'fanboy' card huh? Why? Because I think Wolverine wins in a very debatable fight... especially so in a scenario that gives him a chance to make it a hand to hand struggle? Because my opinion runs contrary to yours? If you think Scott had a chance in close with Logan than I ain't the fanboy here. When someone tries to argue Wolverine beating Thor, throw the fanboy card out k? Wolverine vs. Cyclops is very, very debatable whether you believe so or not. Check the battle forums. You'll see I chose Cyclops winning whenever a range advantage was clearly present.
- Morals is a very apt battle forum term. I used it here to intimate Wolverine was obviously not trying to kill Scott. If he were, Scott would be dead. That it all. Not 'idiotic' but fact.
- OK. Scott unloaded on the Sentinel. So? Since when has Scott depleted all his power in one blast? Name the issue or event please. I cannot think of one.
Why name all ten times you say Wolverine has beaten Cyclops? Because you present it like a fact.
Wolverine Origins is like saying "Your keys are over there," give a better direction, Wolverine Origins is a rather large collection.
Wolverine still has an eye after Cyclops blasted him in the face. It makes no sense.
It's not a card, it's very clear. You use very emotive language, as if someone something important gets determined by either of them winning.
Morals is an apt term in the battle forum. The battle forum is nothing but adolescent whining about who's hero can beat up someone else's hero. If you remove an aspect of a character to prove a point that makes the point moot because it's no longer the character.
Actually if you read the issue, Cyclops looks wasted after throwing that blast.
Again, figurative and exaggerated use of language to impress a point. How do you not understand that? Oh, right, you're being smart. The point remains; Wolverine could have taken Scott out on a few ocassions during that fight had he used his claws. Yes or no? You don't like the answer to that question so you get stuck on inconsequential details to avoid the truth underlying the comment irregardless.
The eye comment is irrelevant. So, I could care less if you find it incredulous or not. Maybe his head was slightly tilted? Dramatic effect? Who cares? Think it's the latter.
I use 'emotive' language? What constitutes 'emotive' language praytell? It's a comic book website. If you don't enjoy talking about comic book characters and the latest issues why post? If you don't give a damn about the stories and their characters then, well, go somewhere else maybe? You've been pretty adamant about responding to anyone with something to say backing Wolverine in this thread and have definitely evidenced a strong opinion yourself ... the irony is you taunting with the word 'fanboy' is the most emotive use of language advanced here thus far. Really now, belittling someone giving a damn about the world of comics in a comic book thread is ingenuous to say the least.
I care even less about your opinion of the battle forums. If you cannot see the contradiction, no stupidity, implicit in your blasting the so-called 'adolescents' whining about their hero beating another hero while you diligently type away on Cyclop's behest here, then I can but chuckle. You responded to my post chum, debating for Scott, looks like you're pretty 'into it' yourself. Again, check your emotive use of language there ... the kettle is indubitably very, very black.
Finally, Wolverine Origins # 3 & 4 to answer your question. Sorry I didn't take my time to research issue numbers for you. Guess I figured the Google function would have answered it nicely as well;
Did a pretty good job handling both Scott and Steve.
@Super_SoldierXII: Name all 10. Captain America and Cyclops when? I'm more curious how Wolverine has eyesight in a socket that's been blasted. You're clearly a Wolverine fanboy, the entire idea of "morals off" is actually rather idiotic, if morals are off it's not Wolverine anymore making the point moot. Lets also not forget he had unloaded everything he had on the Sentinel moments before Wolverine was trying to order the evacuation of the island, with a huge Sentinel hundreds of yards away.
- Why?
- Wolverine Origins. Very common and well known battle. Surprised you're unaware of this.
- Wolverine doesn't need eyesight. It's called enhanced senses. Can hear repressed ninja heartbeats from behind closed doors. Can spot Havok's scent in Cairo Egypt a day after Havok had already left. The list goes on. Thinking he can figure where Cyclops is while on top of him.
- Pulling the 'fanboy' card huh? Why? Because I think Wolverine wins in a very debatable fight... especially so in a scenario that gives him a chance to make it a hand to hand struggle? Because my opinion runs contrary to yours? If you think Scott had a chance in close with Logan than I ain't the fanboy here. When someone tries to argue Wolverine beating Thor, throw the fanboy card out k? Wolverine vs. Cyclops is very, very debatable whether you believe so or not. Check the battle forums. You'll see I chose Cyclops winning whenever a range advantage was clearly present.
- Morals is a very apt battle forum term. I used it here to intimate Wolverine was obviously not trying to kill Scott. If he were, Scott would be dead. That it all. Not 'idiotic' but fact.
- OK. Scott unloaded on the Sentinel. So? Since when has Scott depleted all his power in one blast? Name the issue or event please. I cannot think of one.
Why name all ten times you say Wolverine has beaten Cyclops? Because you present it like a fact.
Wolverine Origins is like saying "Your keys are over there," give a better direction, Wolverine Origins is a rather large collection.
Wolverine still has an eye after Cyclops blasted him in the face. It makes no sense.
It's not a card, it's very clear. You use very emotive language, as if someone something important gets determined by either of them winning.
Morals is an apt term in the battle forum. The battle forum is nothing but adolescent whining about who's hero can beat up someone else's hero. If you remove an aspect of a character to prove a point that makes the point moot because it's no longer the character.
Actually if you read the issue, Cyclops looks wasted after throwing that blast.
Again, figurative and exaggerated use of language to impress a point. How do you not understand that? Oh, right, you're being smart. The point remains; Wolverine could have taken Scott out on a few ocassions during that fight had he used his claws. Yes or no? You don't like the answer to that question so you get stuck on inconsequential details to avoid the truth underlying the comment irregardless.
The eye comment is irrelevant. So, I could care less if you find it incredulous or not. Maybe his head was slightly tilted? Dramatic effect? Who cares? Think it's the latter.
I use 'emotive' language? What constitutes 'emotive' language praytell? It's a comic book website. If you don't enjoy talking about comic book characters and the latest issues why post? If you don't give a damn about the stories and their characters then, well, go somewhere else maybe? You've been pretty adamant about responding to anyone with something to say backing Wolverine in this thread and have definitely evidenced a strong opinion yourself ... the irony is you taunting with the word 'fanboy' is the most emotive use of language advanced here thus far. Really now, belittling someone giving a damn about the world of comics in a comic book thread is ingenuous to say the least.
I care even less about your opinion of the battle forums. If you cannot see the contradiction, no stupidity, implicit in your blasting the so-called 'adolescents' whining about their hero beating another hero while you diligently type away on Cyclop's behest here, then I can but chuckle. You responded to my post chum, debating for Scott, looks like you're pretty 'into it' yourself. Again, check your emotive use of language there ... the kettle is indubitably very, very black.
Finally, Wolverine Origins # 3 & 4 to answer your question. Sorry I didn't take my time to research issue numbers for you. Guess I figured the Google function would have answered it nicely as well;
Did a pretty good job handling both Scott and Steve.
Daniel Way wrote that. Daniel Way is incompetent. It's like using scans from comics by Jeph Loeb in a Darkseid battle. Everyone knows to ignore it.
@FadeToBlackBolt: Actually, it was a great fight between Logan and Steve and not a bad read at all. I think he did Captain America perhaps even more justice against Wolverine than the inverse. And I'm a huge CA fan. So if I'm a 'fanboy' I'm a CA fanboy if anything :P
@Super_SoldierXII: My comment wasn't a slight against you, mate, and I wasn't calling you a fanboy or anything, just saying that Daniel Way's writing can't be trusted.
It's best to avoid figurative language when talking in a debate.
The eye comment wasn't part of the debate, you seem dead set as seeing that as a personal insult. It was an observation.
Figurative language is emotive. You're using it to illustrate a feeling you want people to have.
Terms from the battle forum: Morals off. Beserk mode. No range. It's a place where people put arbitrary limitations or allowances to make themselves feel better about their hero, it's childish and not in the fun way.The whole concept of "morals off" comes from there which again isn't that character. It would be like me saying "If Cyclops could curve his beams," Cyclops can't curve his beams, if he could he becomes a different character. I've read the Battle Forums, it's the worst kind adolescent dribble.
As for the fight between Cyclops and Cap. Its your point, you have the burden of proof to show it. Not me. It's one of your premises, it's not a well known premise, as evidence that no one but you in this thread brought it up. You need to have premises that can be agreed on before your argument can be considered consistent.
Cyclops Vs. All the X-men. He fights them again in Giant Size X-men. Which I don't have at home, I can easily go to the bank tomorrow and get it.
@Super_SoldierXII: My comment wasn't a slight against you, mate, and I wasn't calling you a fanboy or anything, just saying that Daniel Way's writing can't be trusted.
I didn't take it personal at all. I just assumed you had followed the argument between myself and Mr. Crowbar which is why I threw in the word Fanboy.
I agree with regards the Nitro arc, but I think Daniel learned from that one. This particular book wasn't bad. Wolverine actually fought like the physically enhanced samurai ninja that Marvel purports him to be. It was refreshing to see him using skills, as opposed to tanking like a mindless dolt.
IMO Logan as a character can't catch a break. When he uses his top tier level 7 fighting skills, as he did here, it's bad writing. When he acts like a dumb tank and soaks the damage then we're in character. I like the fact Mr. Way's Logan was flipping and dodging, giving Steve an aneurism to take him out of the fight (without having to kill him). I thought it smart having Steve crush the nerves in Logan's hand stopping him from popping his claws.
@Super_SoldierXII: I didn't mind the Steve vs Logan stuff, it was the clear ignorance of Cyclops' character and ability that annoyed me. Logan deflects a blast with a sword, that's not how Scott's blasts work. The sword would have broken, or if it was adamantium or something, flown back into Logan.
@Super_SoldierXII: I didn't mind the Steve vs Logan stuff, it was the clear ignorance of Cyclops' character and ability that annoyed me. Logan deflects a blast with a sword, that's not how Scott's blasts work. The sword would have broken, or if it was adamantium or something, flown back into Logan.
Cyclop's optic blasts get deflected and blocked all the time. The muramasa blade is unbreakable. It also severely hampers the ability to heal from wounds it inflicts. It's a very formidable weapon. There is not way Scott's optic blasts would break it. The only material it does not cut through is adamantium and vice versa. The blasts are concussive, not light, and can indeed be deflected.
@Super_SoldierXII: I didn't mind the Steve vs Logan stuff, it was the clear ignorance of Cyclops' character and ability that annoyed me. Logan deflects a blast with a sword, that's not how Scott's blasts work. The sword would have broken, or if it was adamantium or something, flown back into Logan.
Cyclop's optic blasts get deflected and blocked all the time. The muramasa blade is unbreakable. It also severely hampers the ability to heal from wounds it inflicts. It's a very formidable weapon. There is not way Scott's optic blasts would break it. The only material it does not cut through is adamantium and vice versa. The blasts are concussive, not light, and can indeed be deflected.
They can be deflected by someone with strength enough to resist the concussive force. Wolverine isn't strong enough. The blade should have flown back into him.
It's best to avoid figurative language when talking in a debate.
The eye comment wasn't part of the debate, you seem dead set as seeing that as a personal insult. It was an observation.
Figurative language is emotive. You're using it to illustrate a feeling you want people to have.
Terms from the battle forum: Morals off. Beserk mode. No range. It's a place where people put arbitrary limitations or allowances to make themselves feel better about their hero, it's childish and not in the fun way.The whole concept of "morals off" comes from there which again isn't that character. It would be like me saying "If Cyclops could curve his beams," Cyclops can't curve his beams, if he could he becomes a different character. I've read the Battle Forums, it's the worst kind adolescent dribble.
As for the fight between Cyclops and Cap. Its your point, you have the burden of proof to show it. Not me. It's one of your premises, it's not a well known premise, as evidence that no one but you in this thread brought it up. You need to have premises that can be agreed on before your argument can be considered consistent.
Cyclops Vs. All the X-men.He fights them again in Giant Size X-men. Which I don't have at home, I can easily go to the bank tomorrow and get it.
- Listen, me saying Wolverine could have beaten/killed Scott "ten times over" is akin to saying "easily" or "had he wanted to". It's a very common expression to place emphasis on "at will" or "whensoever he wanted to". I am not going to argue semantics on this anymore. You harping on that comment is uncool. It is extremely obvious what I was getting at and this use of language is just fine. I feel you're being petty there to be honest.
- I see nothing you said about the "eye" as an insult. I just do not know why you brought it up with me. I simply told you I could care less as it's irrelevant to anything I was saying. However, you jumping down my throat, trying to belittle me with the whole 'fanboy' schtick is insulting and instigating, and I treated it as such. Had you not felt the need to take the fanboy approach, I would have responded to you far more amicably and would have welcomed the exchange and difference of opinion as an opportunity to communicate about the comics I enjoy.
- I think you are taking the 'morals' thing far, far too seriously and blowing it way out of proportion. It is used to say, in a far more concise manner, that if Logan wasn't holding back because he didn't want to kill Scott, Scott would be dead. Again I ask, yes or no? This is not irrelevant in a fight between someone who heals back from almost anything (meaning his opponent does NOT have to hold back) and someone who would die if Logan punched him with claws out. Do you see Cyclops unleashing an optic blast full force into, say, Storm's face? No, I didn't think so. He does here as he doesn't really have to hold back with Wolverine. Logan does not have said luxury. It's a meaningful factor.
- As to the 'burden of proof', I have to show absolutely nothing. It is a well known battle/story. I would assume you would be aware of it as you were speaking with absolute authority when citing Cyclops and Wolverine's 'three battles' total. Which is far from the mark.
- I already brought up and aquiesced to the two early Uncanny books in an earlier post (believe that pic is from Uncanny 175) wherein Scott 'contains' the X-Men and 'avoids' a Wolverine mind wiped by Sauron. Using a book released in the late 70's/early 80's, a time where Wolverine's character was still being established (healing factor and all), is an antequated feat and is far less impressive than the more modern showings.
@Super_SoldierXII: I didn't mind the Steve vs Logan stuff, it was the clear ignorance of Cyclops' character and ability that annoyed me. Logan deflects a blast with a sword, that's not how Scott's blasts work. The sword would have broken, or if it was adamantium or something, flown back into Logan.
Cyclop's optic blasts get deflected and blocked all the time. The muramasa blade is unbreakable. It also severely hampers the ability to heal from wounds it inflicts. It's a very formidable weapon. There is not way Scott's optic blasts would break it. The only material it does not cut through is adamantium and vice versa. The blasts are concussive, not light, and can indeed be deflected.
They can be deflected by someone with strength enough to resist the concussive force. Wolverine isn't strong enough. The blade should have flown back into him.
It doesn't for the same reasons Caps shield doesn't when struck by Hulk or a Thor blast. Properties of the metal (vibranium and true adamantium) absorbs the impact. So too with the magical properties of the blade. And as the muramasa won't be destroyed by a blast, it gets deflected. Wolverine's deflected a blast with his claws before as well. Wasn't Daniel writing there. He's absorbed the blasts on his adamantium laced forearms as Death as well. Again, wasn't Daniel Way writing that book ... it happens consistently I believe so I don't see the problem. Especially considering the weapon being used (which you appeared to be unaware of).
@Super_SoldierXII: Figurative language in a debate is bad. At first I actually thought there were 10 fights they had. Hence me asking for them.
As for Cyclops not holding back, he's exhausted to the point where he's shivering right before the fight. He's not holding back you're right that's exhaustion stopping the man that leveled an entire field and made a landing strip for the X-men to land on from blasting Wolverine right into the ground and just burying him.
I've said everything that needs to be said about "Morals off" and the like.
It's such a well known story that I've never head about it, and the near week this thread's been up no one's even mentioned before you. It's not well known.
Marvel didn't retcon it, storywise Wolverine at the time should have years of experience over Cyclops, and Cyclops still takes both him and the X-men on at the same time. That's Rogue, Storm, Colossus, Wolverine, and Nightcrawler heavy hitters at the time.
@Super_SoldierXII: Figurative language in a debate is bad. At first I actually thought there were 10 fights they had. Hence me asking for them. As for Cyclops not holding back, he's exhausted to the point where he's shivering right before the fight. He's not holding back you're right that's exhaustion stopping the man that leveled an entire field and made a landing strip for the X-men to land on from blasting Wolverine right into the ground and just burying him. I've said everything that needs to be said about "Morals off" and the like. It's such a well known story that I've never head about it, and the near week this thread's been up no one's even mentioned before you. It's not well known. Marvel didn't retcon it, storywise Wolverine at the time should have years of experience over Cyclops, and Cyclops still takes both him and the X-men on at the same time. That's Rogue, Storm, Colossus, Wolverine, and Nightcrawler heavy hitters at the time.
Using a figure of speach is by no means always 'bad' when debating. Do take 'context', 'intent' and 'meaning' into consideration when stating a particular use of an expression, or figure of speech, or wording, was 'bad'. It clearly was not. In any case, I understand you had misconstrued the statement so it's all good. It happens.
You're right, Scott was somewhat spent. Which probably explains, in part, why his optic blasts did not KO Wolverine point blank on the third attempt. Didn't even come close to KOing him. I can agree to Scott 'perhaps' being depleted as one reason for this ... to a degree. However, Wolverine has soaked the blasts before on numerous occasions without being KO'd when Scott was in no way tired. Can't be too much different than soaking a punch or three from Hulk. Wolverine's powerset was tailor made to soak concussive blasts/blunt force trauma.
I think you're overestimating Scott's blasts and their ability to take Wolverine down and underestimating Wolverine's extreme durability.
Again, Wolverine was not hitting to kill either ... really the only logical conclusion to a hand to hand fight between the two is Scott dying or Logan getting his HF taxed to its limits and suffering a KO (as Scott would cut loose on Logan knowing he won't kill him, whereas Logan would not unless pushed too far. Which is feasible). Scott has KO'd Wolverine only once (to my knowledge) and this was due to the range advantage. He has no such advantage here. Conversely, Wolverine has soaked, dodged and/or blocked Scott many times over.
Outside of range, were Wolverine pushed to the point of wanting him dead, Scott would get wrecked, and in short order, hand to hand.
And yes, the Origins battle is a very well known story. But not so much if you're less knowledgable on all things Wolverine and Cyclops than you appear to purport in your comments. You're talking about the same folks who took you at your word that Scott and Logan only tussled three times (and one of your references isn't even canon). So what is known on the subject here in this thread is suspect at best. Plus, most were arguing for Scott winning. Why would they bring up a book wherein Scott looked far from stellar?
As to Uncanny 175, retconned or not, PIS is PIS (Scott would never hope to defeat all those X-Men at once. It was obviously plot driven.) and Wolverine has evolved greatly as a character since, having feats that make many moments appear ridiculous with a modern view of the character in mind.
Finally, your strong opinion on the battle forums is well noted. It's not everyone's cup of tea. Normally I would care less. However, your need to generalize and throw everyone who enjoys that sort of debating (and many do) into the same pot was uninspired. Referring to all Viners who post in battle forums as engaging in 'the worst kind of adolescent dribble' is in itself adolescent dribble. It's just beyond opinionated, arrogant and small-minded IMO. Like I said, to each his own.
@Super_SoldierXII: My comment wasn't a slight against you, mate, and I wasn't calling you a fanboy or anything, just saying that Daniel Way's writing can't be trusted.
You just get mad at me for throwing around the scan when Cyclops goes "blah" like a b*tch.
Kidding, but on a more serious note, I agree with what you say to an extent. He wrote Wolverine like how Wolverine should be when at his best, beating Nuke, giving Cap trouble and so on. What I don't like about D-Way is how he nerfs other characters. Way's consistency fluctuates badly. Wolverine and Cap were written well as how the fight should've gone. Wolverine and him have had a history of who was better in the skill department. The fact that had Wolverine handle Cap and Cyclops by himself should not have happened and Cyclops flinching like a pansy should not have happened.
Btw Andy probably has the biggest grudge against Way for that originis story, both his fave characters getting treated like that lol.
"Literally, how is Wolverine managing to do anything when he can’t see/hear/smell anything? I know he has a healing power, but still: He feels pain, right? Wouldn’t having your entire face blasted off kind of cause you to be paralyzed by pain, even if it for some magical reason didn’t kill you and/or stop you from being able to attack anyone because you have almost no sensory input – Touch would be overwhelmed by the feeling of your face being zapped off, you’d think, and taste won’t help."
@Andy Steven Summers: C'mon it wasn't such a bad story aside from nerfing every other character that isn't Wolverine and making Scott look like a pansy. Atleast the Wolverine fight against Cap was done well, he didn't out right stomp Cap and pretty much stalemated him, the fact that Wolverine was able to take on both the way he did was bad.
@BlackArmor: Wolverine has a ridiculous pain tolerance
Doesn't really matter if you can't see hear or smell your opponent and possibly can't think, I mean really theres no way Scott didn't at leas nick his brain. he may well have blown parts of it to bits. It'll grow back but in the meen time how is he still moving
Jokingly no and in comic sense of course not but in actuallity a nick to the brain can have you forget motor skills, math, a language, it may crosswire your whole body so moving your arms will move your leg. this isn't to mention that it may be more than a nick theoretically half his brain could be gone.
Now i know you can't put real world principles in comics but seriously Wolverines HEAD IS GONE he should at least pause at least even for a comic book even for Wolverine
X-23 tells him he heals slowly he should be out of commision for 1-2 minutes tops
@BlackArmor: Jokingly no and in comic sense of course not but in actuallity a nick to the brain can have you forget motor skills, math, a language, it may crosswire your whole body so moving your arms will move your leg. this isn't to mention that it may be more than a nick theoretically half his brain could be gone.
You're over analyzing waaaaaaaay too much, you are trying to put too much real world logic into this. The fact Wolverine gets smashed by 100ton characters and probably has his brain rattling around in his skull turning to mush on a regular basis if you want to over analyse his fights doesn't seem to slow him.
Now i know you can't put real world principles in comics but seriously Wolverines HEAD IS GONE he should at least pause at least even for a comic book even for Wolverine
If you are talking about Schism, no it isn't. He still has hair, his head is there, his flesh is still there parts of it anyways and he still has eyes if you look close enough, their just 2 little white dots, now don't over analyse that, as it's not impossible but his eyes are still there.
X-23 tells him he heals slowly he should be out of commision for 1-2 minutes tops
Yeah slower than her,. The fact he can heal from a skeleton in moments and heal from fatal injuries in seconds to moments shows even with adamantium he still heals ridiculously fast, a nick to the brain is not gonna KO.
Fair enough your right I am aware you can't apply real world knowledge to comics but still this seems really over the top addmitadly Cyce is taking some pretty heavy blows that seem beyond him. and while Wolverines head is still there everything other than a skull everything that makes it a head is gone everything that makes his head functional or of worth while is melted. your right but wolverine still being standing is just plain out wrong one way or the other this fight should be over
EDIT:
I know i said i'd stop using real world logic in comics but while i'm doing it anyway Scott should have destroyed wolverines vertibre connecting his head to his neck and literaly taking his head off
Like i said your right but still just still the principle of it all even for a comic thats entirily to unreal and convenient. I have seen all of wolverine's skin and meat blown off befor in civil war and while this isn't as bad it still should probably slow him down but this is a comic and from what i heard the writer is a wolverine fan so whatever it happen so it's canon and i can't argue idealology vs canon....canonuity is that a word? whether it is or isn't i can't argue against it i can just argue that it is really Really REALLY stupid
@BlackArmor: Principle sure, but based on principle we should all be questioning comics. We should question why there is a flying surfer silver unich. We should question why there is a man shooting optic blasts out his eyes. We should question why Banner didn't 400 types of cancer after that bomb, we should question why there is a brooding man in a bat suit fighting crime. We should question an alien with red underwear outside his pants. Based on principle all comics are stupid. Doesn't stop people from reading them.
I did say your right i geuss at the end of the day what bothers me is wolverines apparant immortality by logic cyce's own blast tears his head off his sholders but it allways makes books more intersesting to me that his head CAN be ripped off his sholders does wolverine actually have anyways to die other than that sword
To the death: Wolverine > Cyclops, since Cyclops probably can't kill off Wolverine.
In General: Cyclops > Wolverine, since he can just get off a huge blast and roach off Wolverine.
Not true. Cyke's beams can cut through Adamantium. Age of Apocalypse Scott cut off Logan's hand. If Scott can do that he can decapitate Wolverine.
That comment may be wrong, but definitely not for the reason you have claimed it to be. AoA Scott = Non Cannon. Any use of logic based on that is thus invalid, unless we're using that version of the character.
@Andy Steven Summers: Tagging is all well and dandy, but I don't see how Cyclops can put him down permanently. I've seen scans of him knocking out Logan, so I'm not arguing that, but Summers' blasts cannot melt the skeleton of Wolverine, and as long as his brain is still functioning, he will heal. Plus, Scott can't fire his blasts forever, willy nilly.
Umm do you know Cyclops' capabilities at all? First off he's been able to hit Quicksilver at full speed, he's been able to punch a hole through blob, and continuously trains in the danger room to take down each member of the X-Men, if they ever went rogue. And yes, as long as Scott has had enough sunlight in a day he can fire his beams without missing a beat, and yes Scott can melt adamantium as seen in Age of Apocalypse when he blasted off Wolverine's hand.
Wolverine is the definition of bringing a gun to an Optic Blast fight.
@Andy Steven Summers: Tagging is all well and dandy, but I don't see how Cyclops can put him down permanently. I've seen scans of him knocking out Logan, so I'm not arguing that, but Summers' blasts cannot melt the skeleton of Wolverine, and as long as his brain is still functioning, he will heal. Plus, Scott can't fire his blasts forever, willy nilly.
Umm do you know Cyclops' capabilities at all? First off he's been able to hit Quicksilver at full speed, he's been able to punch a hole through blob, and continuously trains in the danger room to take down each member of the X-Men, if they ever went rogue. And yes, as long as Scott has had enough sunlight in a day he can fire his beams without missing a beat, and yes Scott can melt adamantium as seen in Age of Apocalypse when he blasted off Wolverine's hand.
Wolverine is the definition of bringing a gun to an Optic Blast fight.
Okay, a lot of this isn't true. First off I don't believe the Quicksilver feat was at full speed, just because someone can tag a speedster doesn't mean they can always tag said speedster and it hardly means that said speedster is always moving at top speeds. Secondly, I don't know when or how this feat happened, so I can't argue it, however I can point out in terms of durability to kinetic force Wolvie's skeleton > The Blob. Third, this is complete rubbish. Cyke can and has gotten tired from over extending his powers. They can take a toll on his body and have in the past. Finally, AoA Cyke is not 616 Cyke. During AoA there are a number of power feats for characters that we've never seen duplicated by their 616 counterparts, we can't say that they are capable of them either until it is shown one way or another that they are in canon after all during AoA Dark Beast and Mr. Sinister were running a great many experiments on many different mutants.
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Claws through the arm, and soaks Scott's initial point blank blast partly with his claws. Wolverine maiming but not striking to kill.
Cyclops luckily bore a hole through the hand before it scrunched him. Wolverine, well, he doesn't get scrunched. Ever.
Here's where Scott reveals he ain't no tactical genius when it comes to Logan. Sentinel won him some range on Logan and what does he do? Runs back in close and tackles the Wolverine?? Idiot. Should have unloaded at range then pry whatever an unconscious Logan had in his hand that he wanted so badly. Notice Logan punches him in the face without his claws? That was game over right there. Wolverine then starts to lose it, pops the claws and Scott is saved, once again, by a Sentinels timely intervention.
Again, Wolverine holds back. Has Scott by the shirt (with claws out Scott would be impaled) and chooses again to try and KO him via a headbutt as opposed to kill him outright. Scott unloads in his face... again. So all those who claim Wolverine won't soak Cyclop's blasts, well, he has repeatedly done so thus far at point blank. Wolverine's durability can no longer be questioned folks. Logan, hand raised for the killing strike ... and Cyclops is once again saved by the bell.
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