Schism: Cyclops & Wolverine the best choices for two sides?

#1 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio


#2 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

A great post by lychees over in the "Who was right?" Schism thread made the point that perhaps Cyclops and Wolverine are not the best choices for Schism. Specifically, they expressed that they felt Storm was better suited than Logan as a counter for Cyclops. Full post in spoiler block below:

@lychees said:

So we've established here that Logan's right from an idealistic point. He's right; kids should not have to be forced into killing. The entire concept of kids being forced to make the decision of whether or not they should have to take another's life is completely wrong. And I guess he's right - if it weren't for some of Scott's decisions, they wouldn't have had to deal with all this.

But Scott's had to make a lot of decisions which, given the situation of mutantkind being near-extinct,I don't honestly blame him for. He's wrong in method, but his intentions are nowhere near the level of outright terrorism that Magneto's used to be.

Idk. They're both right and wrong. I think it was a good decision to "split" as in, start the school again. Kids should be learning/being trained to use their powers and then when a little older, let them decide if they want in on Scott's paramilitary program. Honestly, my only problem here is that it's Logan who's starting the school as headmaster (and of course, naming the school after Scott's dead wife is kind of a low blow. I don't blame him for wanting to honor Jean, but come on. At least pretend to be a little classy?) Seriously, it just seems wildly out of character for him. Wouldn't he be better suited on the field, even if he didn't like Scott?

Putting it like that, I feel like Schism should have been a Cyclops VS... idk, Storm showdown. Wasn't she the one who spoke out against kids being on X-Force? She'd be better suited to starting the school back up again, and it wouldn't have to be an "us versus them, you're on my side or his side" thing; why can't they just say "hey, we're taking the kids back to school, k?"

I absolutely agree that Storm seems far more suited as a champion for Logan's position in the Schism argument. Possibly, Rogue would be another good choice, but I also like how using Storm would pit the two most well-known leaders of the X-Men (not counting Xavier) against each other.

Examining the current choices:

I think it might be helpful to lay out some pros and cons of going with Cyclops and Wolverine.

Pros:

  • Cyclops and Wolverine are (arguably) the two most iconic X-Men, with Wolverine as obviously the most iconic X-Man.
  • Cyclops and Wolverine traditionally are the two X-Men with friction between them.
  • The recent mutual respect by Cyclops and Wolverine makes the split all the more meaningful.
  • By positioning the two against type (Cyclops as the new Magneto, Wolverine as the peaceful headmaster) we are presented with possibly interesting contradictions.
  • Scott and Logan have well-known personal drama regarding the classic love triangle with Jean Grey.
  • Recent developments in Wolverine's solo title make his position a lot more understandable.

Cons:

  • We lose a lot of recent development of their friendship in favor of resuming their rivalry.
  • We don't necessarily gain much be making them rivals again since we've seen the "develop respect and friendship" arc for them so many times before.
  • The Jean Grey drama happened a long time ago and yet infects modern continuity.
  • We've seen them fight over Jean's memory before and they got past it (Whedon's Astonishing run).
  • Wolverine's role as a mentor to young X-students is seen by many as a (putting it politely) softening of the character that is unwelcome.
  • Wolverine's role with X-Force makes his stand seem rather inconsistent and hypocritical, especially when he allowed X-23 to be on X-Force temporarily (Note: He did speak out against it and it was Cyclops who put her on the team).
  • The character development of the younger X-Men in their Schism title seems to have them siding with Cyclops, but then they're all going off with Wolverine, making the distinction between these two characters seem arbitrary.

Alternatives

Storm for Wolverine:

Pros:

  • Was developed as strongly opposed to X-Force whereas Wolverine was leading it.
  • Has led the X-Men previously.
  • Experienced a hard upbringing and can empathize with the younger X-Men (seen in a conversation with X-23)

Cons:

  • Has been somewhat distant from the rest of the X-Men since becoming queen of Wakanda (although Doomwar was awesome and the X-Men were very involved there).

Rogue for Wolverine:

Pros:

  • Established rapport with the X-kids.
  • Has fought on both sides of the Xavier/Magneto divide and understands the issue well.
  • Also had a rough upbringing when she was exploited by Mystique.

Cons:

  • Although she has led X-teams previously, she doesn't really have the "leader" archetype that Cyclops does or the "star power" that Wolverine does.

Emma Frost for Cyclops:

Pros:

  • Comfortable in a leadership role and has been closely associated with Cyclops' leadership, meaning it wouldn't be much of a change to have her step forward.
  • Brings a "dark past" to the table, and her time with the Hellfire Club ties in very nicely with the villains that manipulated the Schism in the first place.
  • Has worked with X-kids and seen that school wiped out, meaning she has a very personal reason for believing that the "school method" does not work.

Cons:

  • Her villainous past might make the Schism seem like less of an internal split and more of an "us vs. them" thing.

Namor for Cyclops

Pros:

  • Speedo.
  • Is very comfortable in the role of a ruler of a beleaguered minority group and is a good representation of a military approach to mutant safety.
  • Considered (in some circles) to be the original mutant.

Cons:

  • X-uniform has no speedo.
  • His role as ruler of Atlantis makes him seem as "not all X-man" and perhaps "less of a mutant."

---

What does everybody else think? Do you like Wolverine and Cyclops as the champions of their causes? Who else would you suggest if you had to change them out for someone else?

#3 Posted by lychees (7 posts) - - Show Bio

It's late for me so I'm not thinking quite coherently anymore but I think my mind froze at the thought of Schism being presented not as Cyclops VS Wolverine but as Emma VS Storm. How vicious would that have been??

.... I promise to have a more substantial reply in the morning.

#4 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@lychees said:

It's late for me so I'm not thinking quite coherently anymore but I think my mind froze at the thought of Schism being presented not as Cyclops VS Wolverine but as Emma VS Storm. How vicious would that have been??

.... I promise to have a more substantial reply in the morning.

That would have been pretty badass. :)

#5 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5834 posts) - - Show Bio

I definitely agree that Storm should have been the one who challenged Cyclops and not Wolverine because she was more fitted to lead the teams and I think that she would have made a better headmaster at the new school than Wolverine could.

#6 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbitearsblog said:

I definitely agree that Storm should have been the one who challenged Cyclops and not Wolverine because she was more fitted to lead the teams and I think that she would have made a better headmaster at the new school than Wolverine could.

Yeah. And I thought the reason given in Regenesis for her to side with Cyclops was really thin. (Spoilers for that issue below.)

Here's how the actual discussion went:

Storm: I've never been entirely aligned to your direction here. X-Force in theory and practice was an abomination. Even if you don't believe in Xavier's dream anymore.
Cyclops: Please don't go. I need you.
Storm: I know what you're planning. You don't need me, Scott. You need my power.
Cyclops: No Ororo. You don't understand. Hank left. Kitty's leaving. Bobby's leaving. Look who's at my side: Magneto. Namor. Danger. Doctor Nemesis. Emma. Even Peter and his sister... This can't go wrong. I need someone to make sure this doesn't go wrong. They don't need you. I need you.
Storm: ... (next scene we see she's accepted)

Here's how the discussion should have gone:

Storm: You've been scary vicious and X-Force is bad. You haven't been following Xavier at all.
Cyclops: Please don't go. I need you.
Storm: You mean you need another power house.
Cyclops: No Ororo. Everybody on my side was a villain at some point. I need you to be there to make sure I won't become a villain too.
Storm: That you even need to ask me to do that should tell you something already. If that's how it is, then you should stop and walk away. Don't ask me to enable you by being your token "good guy" X-Man.

I'm not saying Scott's overall perspective is wrong, I'm just saying that his argument here is incredibly weak and that the fact that Storm just kind of meekly accepts his horrible reasoning for nothing other than an emotional appeal is completely out of character for her.

#7 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5834 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

I definitely agree that Storm should have been the one who challenged Cyclops and not Wolverine because she was more fitted to lead the teams and I think that she would have made a better headmaster at the new school than Wolverine could.

Yeah. And I thought the reason given in Regenesis for her to side with Cyclops was really thin. (Spoilers for that issue below.)

Here's how the actual discussion went:

Storm: I've never been entirely aligned to your direction here. X-Force in theory and practice was an abomination. Even if you don't believe in Xavier's dream anymore.
Cyclops: Please don't go. I need you.
Storm: I know what you're planning. You don't need me, Scott. You need my power.
Cyclops: No Ororo. You don't understand. Hank left. Kitty's leaving. Bobby's leaving. Look who's at my side: Magneto. Namor. Danger. Doctor Nemesis. Emma. Even Peter and his sister... This can't go wrong. I need someone to make sure this doesn't go wrong. They don't need you. I need you.
Storm: ... (next scene we see she's accepted)

Here's how the discussion should have gone:

Storm: You've been scary vicious and X-Force is bad. You haven't been following Xavier at all.
Cyclops: Please don't go. I need you.
Storm: You mean you need another power house.
Cyclops: No Ororo. Everybody on my side was a villain at some point. I need you to be there to make sure I won't become a villain too.
Storm: That you even need to ask me to do that should tell you something already. If that's how it is, then you should stop and walk away. Don't ask me to enable you by being your token "good guy" X-Man.

I'm not saying Scott's overall perspective is wrong, I'm just saying that his argument here is incredibly weak and that the fact that Storm just kind of meekly accepts his horrible reasoning for nothing other than an emotional appeal is completely out of character for her.

I agree. I think Storm would have left already if Scott ask that of her, not just join the team so easily, especially if it had a lot former villains on the team. I'm still trying to figure out why Storm would even join Cyclops' team anyway since she is so against using violence as an answer to their problems.

#8 Posted by moywar700 (2775 posts) - - Show Bio

We all know why wolverine has to be the one to oppose cyclops.

It because wolverine sells alot more than storm does

#9 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5834 posts) - - Show Bio

@moywar700 said:

We all know why wolverine has to be the one to oppose cyclops.

It because wolverine sells alot more than storm does

Yeah, that's the sad thing because Storm's such a great character and lately, she has been underused in the X-Universe.

#10 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@moywar700 said:

We all know why wolverine has to be the one to oppose cyclops.

It because wolverine sells alot more than storm does

That's true. And I think that's why we get things like Wolverine and the X-Men and Schism where Logan is set up as the leader of the X-Men. But come on, it's jarring when you read stuff like this:

"They'll learn or they'll die."

Ouch, Logan.

#11 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5834 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@moywar700 said:

We all know why wolverine has to be the one to oppose cyclops.

It because wolverine sells alot more than storm does

That's true. And I think that's why we get things like Wolverine and the X-Men and Schism where Logan is set up as the leader of the X-Men. But come on, it's jarring when you read stuff like this:

"They'll learn or they'll die."

Ouch, Logan.

Okay, now I'm definitely confused at this point. First, the writers wanted Wolverine to be the reasonable one in taking care of the kids and now he's saying that the kids will just die if they can't survive in this world? What's are the writers thinking?

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