Questions about Scarlet Witch's power in Children's Crusade & AvX

Posted by Owie (3295 posts) - - Show Bio

OK, I have some questions about the Scarlet Witch's power, as it relates to the Children's Crusade and Avengers vs X-Men.
 
As I understand it, some time ago, Wanda gained the power of the Life Force, which she used to do the whole "no more mutants" thing.  The Life Force is the retcon explanation for how her power was elevated to the level at which she could accomplish such a thing.
 
Then she disappeared, and was later found, amnesiatic, during Children's Crusade.

Wanda gets the Life Force


Eventually, she and Wiccan and Doom were going to cast a spell to give the mutants their powers back.  But Patriot intervened, and the spell was interrupted.  This had the result of her losing the Life Force, and Doom gaining it.  He went nuts with power, of course. 

Wanda loses the Life Force
 
Doom gets the Life Force


Now, it's important to emphasize how powerful the Life Force is--Doom says it was more powerful than when he had the power of the Beyonder (which of course we have to understand as the power of the retconned Beyonder, but still, that's pretty powerful). 

Life Force more powerful than Beyonder


Wanda figured out how to beat Doom--by opening the portal to the Life Force at full blast. Doom succumbed and lost the Life Force (in one of his few willpower failures ever, I should note). BUT, it does NOT seem like Wanda gets the Life Force back, from what I can tell.

Wanda plots to beat Doom

Doom loses Life Force


Once Doom loses the power, he inexplicably (to my mind) says "You think you were powerful enough to destroy the Avengers and rid the world of its mutants?  That was me.  That was Doom."  I have no idea what he means by this. 

Doom erased mutants?


Anyway, there is no evidence, as far as I can tell, that Wanda gets the Life Force back.  She has her normal powers, as far as I can tell, at the end of Children's Crusade.

 
BUT, in Avengers vs X-Men, Wanda is shown to be extremely powerful--she is essentially the only person able to stand up to the Pheonix 5.  Now, I find it hard to believe that NORMAL Wanda could do this.  It seems to me that only the Life Force-amped Wanda (which according to Doom would put her above post-retcon Beyonder) would be able to stand up to the Pheonix power.
 
So my question is, do you think Wanda lost the power of the Life Force at the end of Children's Crusade?  If you think she got it back, can you show any scan from Children's Crusade (or elsewhere) that says that she got it back?  OR, if she didn't get it back, then how do you think she's facing up to the Pheonix, considering that her previous high-level feats were only accomplished with the aid of the Life Force? 
 
And, what the heck does Doom mean when he says that he's the one who got rid of the mutants?

 
Thanks for your help.

#1 Posted by XsPectre28 (666 posts) - - Show Bio

maybe she is tapping into the phoenix force since they are saying her powers are connected to it or maybe the phoenix force is derived from the life force or the life force is apart of the phoenix force

#2 Posted by Owie (3295 posts) - - Show Bio
@XsPectre28 said:

maybe she is tapping into the phoenix force since they are saying her powers are connected to it or maybe the phoenix force is derived from the life force or the life force is apart of the phoenix force

It would make sense if the Pheonix Force and Life Force were connected, since the Pheonix Force is derived from the power of life.  But I don't think Wanda actually has the Life Force.  Perhaps she is just connecting to it through some kind of sympathetic magic.  That's an interesting idea.  But my impression is that she's using her normal chaos magic, just amped beyond her original levels.
#3 Posted by Buckshot (18865 posts) - - Show Bio

I think what's being shown in AvX isn't that Wanda is as powerful as the Phoenix, but that her powers interact with it in a way that messes with it just because of the nature of her energies.

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#4 Posted by Owie (3295 posts) - - Show Bio
@Buckshot said:

I think what's being shown in AvX isn't that Wanda is as powerful as the Phoenix, but that her powers interact with it in a way that messes with it just because of the nature of her energies.

But the extent or intensity of those powers must be fairly high in order to mess with it so much, right?  Don't you feel that she seems more powerful than in her classic state?  Would you say this points to her still having the Life Force, or just a general improvement in her power level from back in the day?  Or something else?
#5 Posted by danhimself (21898 posts) - - Show Bio

Wanda's powers have never really been fully explained or understood so it's really hard to say just how powerful she is

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#6 Posted by Owie (3295 posts) - - Show Bio
@danhimself said:

Wanda's powers have never really been fully explained or understood so it's really hard to say just how powerful she is

That's definitely true, her power set is one of the most ambiguous in comics, in my opinion. But on the other hand she certainly wasn't going around fighting Pheonix-level entities on her own 20 or 30 years ago, it was a hex-bolt here and a hex-bolt there.  I know things change over time, but I guess I understood that the Life Force was supposed to be the official explanation for that change, and now it's supposed to be gone.
#7 Posted by Buckshot (18865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie said:

@Buckshot said:

I think what's being shown in AvX isn't that Wanda is as powerful as the Phoenix, but that her powers interact with it in a way that messes with it just because of the nature of her energies.

But the extent or intensity of those powers must be fairly high in order to mess with it so much, right? Don't you feel that she seems more powerful than in her classic state? Would you say this points to her still having the Life Force, or just a general improvement in her power level from back in the day? Or something else?

Something else. It seems clear to me that it's the nature of her power, not the amount of it that is what's making her an issue for the Phoenix. In AvX 7 when Stark is analyzing the data of their fight he mentions that there's a connection between the energies of her hex field and the phoenix force, one that causes them both to accelerate when they mingle. It's like a chemical reaction, the two things don't mix well. Doesn't mean her power is necessarily on the level of the Phoenix.

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#8 Posted by Owie (3295 posts) - - Show Bio
@Buckshot said:

@Owie said:

@Buckshot said:

I think what's being shown in AvX isn't that Wanda is as powerful as the Phoenix, but that her powers interact with it in a way that messes with it just because of the nature of her energies.

But the extent or intensity of those powers must be fairly high in order to mess with it so much, right? Don't you feel that she seems more powerful than in her classic state? Would you say this points to her still having the Life Force, or just a general improvement in her power level from back in the day? Or something else?

Something else. It seems clear to me that it's the nature of her power, not the amount of it that is what's making her an issue for the Phoenix. In AvX 7 when Stark is analyzing the data of their fight he mentions that there's a connection between the energies of her hex field and the phoenix force, one that causes them both to accelerate when they mingle. It's like a chemical reaction, the two things don't mix well. Doesn't mean her power is necessarily on the level of the Phoenix.

You're definitely right about that, Stark was making real connections between their power.  I guess part of my thoughts on this comes from how the battles are even just drawn--for instance Wanda vs Illyana.  There was just a ton of flaring energy blasting around all over the place, coming from both characters, and Wanda's seemed to eventually overwhelm Illyana, not only cause a unstable reaction in her own energy.  The way artists draw energy is pretty subjective and up for interpretation, but I think it still tells us something.  So while I agree that there is something special about what kind of power she has, she also seems to be throwing it out there in fairly huge amounts.
#9 Posted by hexer (1 posts) - - Show Bio

Seems as though Wanda's powers derive from chaos magic which are from Chthon, maybe because her powers come from him and he and phoenix are from the dawn of creation, so maybe Wanda's power can hurt the phoenix to an extent or they are linked together like a twin nexus and Wanda can tap into it as well.

#10 Posted by Owie (3295 posts) - - Show Bio
@hexer said:
Seems as though Wanda's powers derive from chaos magic which are from Chthon, maybe because her powers come from him and he and phoenix are from the dawn of creation, so maybe Wanda's power can hurt the phoenix to an extent or they are linked together like a twin nexus and Wanda can tap into it as well.
Interesting, I hadn't heard that Wanda's chaos magic came from Chthon.
#11 Posted by Hyperlight (4281 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: Well the life force stuff that is happening in childrens crusade is confusing the hell out of me. Wanda would have been a mutant regarless, probably with her ability to affect probablilty on a small scale. Chthon's application of chaos magic to her gave her more potential than she was suppose to have naturally. gave her a high affinity for magics a s well.

#12 Posted by kid Apollo (697 posts) - - Show Bio

adding most of your theories together i came up with this. with the power Chthon bestowed on Wanda, and the fact that both Chthon and the Phoenix are both from the dawn of creation they may have simlar energy. stark realises that their is a connection between the energies produced by the p-force and the hex bolts, and that they dont mingle properly. Chthon is a master of choas magic, destruction. the phoenix is an entity that burns away the old to make room for the new, rebirth. is it possible that the two energies dont react well and cause the scarlet witch to get more powerful? this could explain why she seems so powerful in AvX despite having lost the Life Force.

#13 Posted by Owie (3295 posts) - - Show Bio
@kid Apollo said:

adding most of your theories together i came up with this. with the power Chthon bestowed on Wanda, and the fact that both Chthon and the Phoenix are both from the dawn of creation they may have simlar energy. stark realises that their is a connection between the energies produced by the p-force and the hex bolts, and that they dont mingle properly. Chthon is a master of choas magic, destruction. the phoenix is an entity that burns away the old to make room for the new, rebirth. is it possible that the two energies dont react well and cause the scarlet witch to get more powerful? this could explain why she seems so powerful in AvX despite having lost the Life Force.

I think it does have to be something like this.  Now that more issues have come out, Wanda seems less powerful than she was with the Life Force, so I guess she just has somewhat of a general power upgrade, and it just so happens that that kind of power reacts in an unusual way with the Phoenix power. Although how the Iron Fist power fits in there is another whole deal.

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