@Daycrawler said:
Jesus H Christ! I wasn't drawing a direct equivalent that Wanda’s situation could be directly equated to real world examples. I suspect you know that. I like how you ignore my first statement above by the way. All I was trying to get across was the, in the real world, if the impossible were possible and a parent could get back their child, but for a terrible and deadly price, not everyone would do it. I suspect a lot wouldn't just like you suspect a lot would. Both points are just conjecture though unless either of us has performed a fully comprehensive study on the subject. I haven't. You?
But the "terrible, deadly price" is only accounted for in retrospect. Wanda didn't know the life force would have the effects it did on her powers, I'll admit it was careless of her to test it but it's not so ridiculous that she would try. She's actually capable resurrection as we've seen with Wonder Man, Agatha Harkness, and Magneto- all of which had little to no consequence.
I wasn't being passive aggressive or pretending not to understand your analogy but just trying to make the point there is no tangible real world equivalent to Wanda's situation. Like I've said, there are so many variables and x-factors that make her particular situation so unique, I find it pretty hard to pass judgement on her as if her situation is normal and I don't think any of those variables should be excluded.
I do find what Wanda has done irresponsible (though I never said unforgivabley so) as I find Cyclops recent behaviour. Scott has paid the price for this via imprisonment and Wanda should have too. Also she was stupid for working with Doom and was mentally unstable due to the loss of her kids. So other heroes have worked with villains before and in most cases it didn't end up all shiny did it? Just because other good guys do something doesn't automatically make it right/safe. Desperate and unstable as she was she would, or at least should have known this. It's obviously monumentally stupid to ask Doom to help you harness a cosmic force and not expect a high chance of it being extremely dangerous. Even if Wanda rushed in blind without thinking, which I doubt, this doesn't absolve her of blame.
Well, the difference between Wanda and Cyclops was that, regardless of who Doom is, she was unaware of the effects of the Life Force. Scott, on the other hand, knew very well what the Phoenix force was capable of and chose to harbor it knowingly, without it's influence taking possession over him for the benefit of the mutants regardless of the potential ramifications for the rest of the world (or worlds).
Now, does ignorance grant Wanda complete innocence? Not necessarily, I don't think it makes her a candidate for damnation though. Scott, on the other hand, wasn't possessed when he chose to wage war on the Avengers and protect the Phoenix force.
Wanda wanted to restore the lives of her children using a cosmic force, her intentions weren't to overtake the world or eliminate mutants or kill any of the Avengers before the possession. Scott wanted to preserve mutants potentially at the cost of humans and his allies. There's a difference in their motives and convictions. Frankly, the more I think about it, the more Scott looks somewhat elitist as a mutant the way Magneto does.
Yes its extreme in certain aspects, but children dying/parents grieving is a daily occurrence, both in the fictional and real world. Not many people, fictionally and in the real world, have found themselves in a burning space shuttle confronted by a cosmic entity with basically only two stark choices – die or accept the entities offer.
Well, it's not exactly a daily occurrence (perhaps more so in 3'rd world countries or in different points in history) but it is still quite unusual. Yes, people lose children but not very many people have self-conceived by way of mutation nor have many people been lied to about the deaths of their children. Those two components make Wanda's situation incredibly different and they're too important to be ignored.
Wanda created her children by way of will only, that level of control of reality would change a person's perception and provide options that would not be available to someone otherwise, extremely tempting options. Also, given the Avengers lied about Wanda's kids to her for years, it somewhat explains why she didn't go to them first and went to Doom instead.
Also, might I mention, it wasn't entirely ethical of the Avengers to withhold this information from Wanda either. Agatha Harkness advised them to for fear Wanda would lose her mind but if she were really smart she would've wiped their memories too so there wouldn't even be the opportunity to tell Wanda.
I've have relatives that have lost children (they didn't become desperate and unhinged) and I'm truly sorry to hear about your parents. I too have lots of friends with families that would find losing their children horrendous and hugely painful. Yes it's understandable but, painful as it may be, desperate well intentioned actions that have deadly outcomes still have to have some sort of repercussions.
That's a valid point but I just don't think it's applicable to Wanda. She actually was capable of resurrecting people and giving life to her children without consequence previously. I'm sure it wouldn't be unreasonable for her to believe she accomplish the feat again, therefore the risk of her messing it up with the Life Force was lesser than just any other mutant or superhero.
Actions, however well intentioned and noble and understandable, still have consequences for the person (or should) if what they do leads to other’s death or suffering. Real world and fictional. You may be able to understand, relate to or sympathize with the person but you should not get a free pass because your motivations were pure or good. And by the way, you do know that synonyms for unhinged are lunatic, maniac and insane?
Well, lunatic and maniac are more colloquialisms rather than technical terms, nobody classifies people as those things anymore. I understand your usage of it and I don't necessarily mind it in other contexts but I just feel in this one it isn't a fair assessment. My stance on Wanda definitely does lean somewhat on certain attributes of her character and her intentions but I just think when you look at the entire picture, it's not as criminal or malicious to me.
She was a person in a very bizarre predicament. She self-conceived her children, they died, she was deceived for years, and she has all this power at her fingertips she'd recently shown a remarkable control over....I see a lot of people making the same decision Wanda made, I can understand it. I don't see how Wanda or anyone else in her place could've imagined this scenario ending with mutants being almost wiped out.
That why I compared her to Typhoid Mary or Mary Fallon (her real name). She caught the typhoid fever but wasn't aware she had it, probably couldn't afford to see a doctor or get medicine so she continued to work at this soup kitchen to earn a living. She unknowingly infected people which resulted in a few deaths. But, so far as she knew, she had a virus or an ailment she felt as though she could outlast and had no idea she would be a carrier to this terrible ailment. At least she was arguably innocent during the initial outbreak, then she just got really stupid and stubborn and refused to be cleanly (that's where she and Wanda differ). She's definitely not the best example overall but in just initial incident. I know people who work in the food service industry that go to work sick, if one of them had some obscure ailment no one could predict then how culpable would they really be?
To me, she was just the first domino in the line that provoked the rest to fall but through no other reason than simple misfortune. Wanda's obviously a little different but one of her isolated actions led to a series of others that were completely unanticipated which is similar in concept.
Actually, she should have foreseen that tampering with cosmic forces and working with Doom could an likely would have bad consequences, as I have said. Whilst the victims won’t gain much from hating Wanda they would have some form of closure were she to be punished (locked up, not torture). Pietro may have coerced, which makes him an accomplice and should be punished to, but Wanda did the damage and caused the deaths. She may have only been trying to save her kids, but again, that can’t be used as an excuse or ‘get out of jail free’ card. Her actions, however well intentioned, ended in disaster. She should answer to that. Just like Cyclops has. Just like Magneto should, etc.
Like I said, she couldn't go to the Avengers, she wouldn't be the first hero to join forces with Doom, and she'd achieved resurrections in the past. You can argue she could've foreseen the outcome but there's also a case for her actions, an argument that isn't so unreasonable for her to have done what she did.
And the damage Wanda caused happened after the effects of the Life Force. I don't actually think Scott or Wanda or Jean or anyone possessed by a cosmic force should be held accountable for what that cosmic force chooses to do with their vessel so I don't adhere to the belief that Wanda caused the damage herself.
I also have a lot of issues with the way HoM went down. First Pietro coerced Wanda while she was in a vulnerable state and then Scott (in all his brilliance) decided the best plan of attack would be to just drop in like an atom bomb on the woman whom reality hinged upon. Then Magneto, another thinker, brutally murdered Pietro in front of Wanda who was so lost in psychosis not even Emma could read her. There was a lot of savage behavior from our heroes that resulted in M-day. Wanda said the words but there was a lot of needless provocation.
Grieving woman makes bad choices whilst mentally unstable that results in peoples deaths. Manslaughter. Criminal. Should be punished. Happened to Cyclops, why not Wanda? *cough* Cap *cough*
You even call Typhoid Mary a criminal yet say the people of this type should not be punished? So in your view Wanda is a Typhoid Mary type of figure, which in turn means she is a criminal of a less nasty variety so no charges should be brought.
Oh no, I didn't call Typhoid Mary a criminal at all and ultimately she was only held in quarantine but never really imprisoned or charged. She was actually quite stupid in her handling after having been taken in for investigation like I said, I was really only referencing her initial "crime". People get probation for manslaughter all the time though if it can proved they weren't behaving negligently, their innocence hinges upon how much arguable negligence they showed. And I don't perceive Wanda's behavior as completely negligent or sufficiently negligent to be penalized in the same way.
Should she have known better? The X-men have found a valuable asset in many of their enemies. Emma, at one point, tried to summon the Phoenix Force for the Hellfire Club and now she's running the show, Namor has tried to overtake the world on a few occassions but also managed to save it in aiding the X-men and Fantastic Four, Wolverine was a killer....is it only when things go right that this sort of behavior and these allegiances are considered to be wise? At any point, with their backs turned, all of the previously mentioned could've been stabbed in the back.
Doom also was in love with Wanda and had no malicious intentions himself, it wasn't even because of Doom that things went south. It was the Life Force, it just couldn't be controlled. Was it meddlesome of them? Yes. But Wanda was born with powers that meddled with reality as it was and had a greater degree of control over them than she had ever previously had been shown to. Hell, she subconsciously created life from nothing, I don't blame her for thinking she could again.
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