FINALLY! Someone calls this witch out on her sh--

#1 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio
http://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads//2012/09/4-54990c6727.jpg?848685

Of course the next ten pages will have Hope apologizing for that comment, but still in this nether space between being published, AvX 12 has given me something I've wanted to see in a long time.

The blame being squarely put where it belongs at Wanda's feet. The woman commits the largest act of genocide in marvel history and everyone is walking around like its okay.

Reading this one page is like previewing a porn all the way until just before she takes off her top. You know something great is coming but there's a fear in your gut, this has to be a prank one of those internet shock videos. It's going to turn out to be a hairy chimpanzee chest with snot knotted hair. But for this one moment, this one shining moment, blame is rightfully place. AvX creates some sort of consistency, a logic is established, part of me is curious what the switch is going to be being it feels too good to be true.

#2 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

Apparently I can't delete things. I kept getting 404'd didn't know it was getting posted sorry.

#3 Posted by fodigg (6148 posts) - - Show Bio

Lest you forget, Wanda knew after Avengers Disassembled that she was unhinged and should probably be put down (and was willing to die), and it was Pietro who convinced her to create House of M and the backlash against him that led to Decimation. If anything, it's his fault.

#4 Edited by aaunderoath (165 posts) - - Show Bio

Was JUST gonna make this topic! Simply just the one panel of Hope saying "I should blame you" makes me so freakin happy

#5 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: The fact no one has her chained or even under arrest is disgusting. Could you imagine the outrage if we had someone responsible for genocide as part of the FBI or something?

#6 Edited by fodigg (6148 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCrowbar said:

@fodigg: The fact no one has her chained or even under arrest is disgusting. Could you imagine the outrage if we had someone responsible for genocide as part of the FBI or something?

Or, like, former presidents & prime ministers, you mean? How do you manage the burden of proof there? Also, does the term genocide apply here? Certainly M-day resulted in deaths but it didn't outright kill mutants, and the USA government has pursued similar answers to the "mutant problem" in the past. In fact, it was said that the US benefited massively from the depowering of mutants since their non-mutant metahuman population was so much higher than elsewhere in the globe (in Avengers: The Initiative I believe). I'm not saying any of this is moral, but surprising? I don't think it really is as unexpected or as outlandish as you assume.

#7 Posted by danhimself (22695 posts) - - Show Bio

they went after Quicksilver but he pulled the "it wasn't me, it was a skrull" lie out of his a$$ and everyone believed him

#8 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

I hope Wanda kicks Hope's ass.

#9 Posted by Daycrawler (555 posts) - - Show Bio

@x_29 said:

I hope Wanda kicks Hope's ass.

Well, the lunatic has already kicked the Avengers collective ass (dissasembled) and mutantkind in general (decimation), so i guess going after a confused and isolated mutant child labelled as mutantkind's saviour would be in keeping with the nutbag's character.

#10 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

@Daycrawler said:

@x_29 said:

I hope Wanda kicks Hope's ass.

Well, the lunatic has already kicked the Avengers collective ass (dissasembled) and mutantkind in general (decimation), so i guess going after a confused and isolated mutant child labelled as mutantkind's saviour would be in keeping with the nutbag's character.

Hope deserves it.

#11 Posted by joshmightbe (25053 posts) - - Show Bio

@danhimself: If you want to get real accurate its all Magneto's fault for being a s**tty father.

#12 Posted by theTimeStreamer (2841 posts) - - Show Bio

cant wait for hope to develop the power to absorb bullets with her head

#13 Posted by Daycrawler (555 posts) - - Show Bio

@x_29 said:

@Daycrawler said:

@x_29 said:

I hope Wanda kicks Hope's ass.

Well, the lunatic has already kicked the Avengers collective ass (dissasembled) and mutantkind in general (decimation), so i guess going after a confused and isolated mutant child labelled as mutantkind's saviour would be in keeping with the nutbag's character.

Hope deserves it.

...though nowhere near as much as Wanda deserves an ass kicking. So far Hope has only been a whiny teen brat. Wanda is a mass murderer. And a nutbag. And I'm sure she smells bad too. That could've been me though,

#14 Posted by White Mage (18748 posts) - - Show Bio

@theTimeStreamer said:

cant wait for hope to develop the power to absorb bullets with her head

Didn't you use that for Storm?

You..............you need new material.lol

@TheCrowbar said:

http://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads//2012/09/4-54990c6727.jpg?848685

Of course the next ten pages will have Hope apologizing for that comment, but still in this nether space between being published, AvX 12 has given me something I've wanted to see in a long time.

The blame being squarely put where it belongs at Wanda's feet. The woman commits the largest act of genocide in marvel history and everyone is walking around like its okay.

Reading this one page is like previewing a porn all the way until just before she takes off her top. You know something great is coming but there's a fear in your gut, this has to be a prank one of those internet shock videos. It's going to turn out to be a hairy chimpanzee chest with snot knotted hair. But for this one moment, this one shining moment, blame is rightfully place. AvX creates some sort of consistency, a logic is established, part of me is curious what the switch is going to be being it feels too good to be true.

HA!

#15 Posted by Jean_Luc_LeBeau (84704 posts) - - Show Bio

hahaha all these people wanting revenge against Wanda, cracks me up. You know why nobody steps to her? Cause nobody can. They're scaaaaared. You dont wanna see Wanda on a bad day. She's proficient in stickin a boot in a fools @$$.

#16 Posted by ComicMan24 (147115 posts) - - Show Bio

She is to blame as well of course but since the writers decided to go all Parallax on her, I doubt anything will happen to her.

#17 Posted by SC (13307 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm sorry, I can't divorce myself from the fact that Joe Q and a bunch of X-Men editors were feeling nostalgic and decided that the X-Men's glory days and best conditions for plot and character growth were when there were only like a handful of mutants in the world like way back when Stan Lee was writing the X-Men... right... so 'Wanda' didn't commit 'genocide', hell the "in story canon" is that she barely killed a few characters that died from being depowered in situations that led to their death, that and I can't ignore that Wanda wasn't even the first choice for Bendis to use as a plot device to massively cut down on mutant characters. That and the character had to be written to forget her twin children were the actually the devil and not real so another character could mistakenly mention it to her to make her flip out and go insane. Or that I would have thought that for a bunch of characters running around calling themselves heroes you think writers would write them as being concerned for other characters when such screwed up stuff happens. So I just find the moment between Wanda and Hope ironic. Its the deus ex machina character of the last four years talking to the deus ex machina character that she succeeded. If Wanda could talk she would tell Hope to "STFU we lost Bishop, Forge, Cable, Nightcrawler, Vanisher to give your character more credibility Hope, and what happened? You lost the only cool bit of characterization you had to become Marvel's Superboy Prime" but then Hope could just turn around and tell Wanda its the bad men, the bad men who control us both, and controlled the Sentry, and Captain America, Iron Man, Cyclops, and Xavier, and Magneto, and Vulcan and when will the bad men stop abusing us she will say she will say.         
 
I just can't be satisfied by characters calling out other characters for actions and parts in storytelling that are deliberately artificial and for the sake of changing the status quo to suit a particular editors fancy. Its much more satisfying to see good writers write good characters that build up consistency with consistent characterization calling out cheap writers moves or just you know? Creating nice organic conflict that doesn't actually ruin any or either character unfairly.  

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#18 Posted by Jean_Luc_LeBeau (84704 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC: Not saying I agree or disagree, but I liked reading the post.

#19 Posted by joshmightbe (25053 posts) - - Show Bio

Now if Some telepath would just dig around in Quicksilver's head and out that douche for lying about his responsibility in the whole affair and leaving his "Beloved" sister to take all the blame while he jumps on the "Skrull did it" bandwagon we might be getting somewhere.

#20 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (3876 posts) - - Show Bio

hi

#21 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

@danhimself: If you want to get real accurate its all Magneto's fault for being a s**tty father.

And the way Magneto is is because of his own experience in the Holocaust.

This is all Hitler's fault.

#22 Posted by joshmightbe (25053 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambit1024: It always comes back to Hitler according the History channel, Hitler or Aliens

#23 Edited by CJStriker (24 posts) - - Show Bio

@Daycrawler: Well that shows your level of Knowledge about what really happened to Wanda, here's an idea, go Read Children's Crusade and then make your comment please.

If you read that then you know the FACT that Wanda was POSSESSED by an Entity, The Life Force and that what led to all of this Stupid Garbage. Same Story as Jean Grey (Dark Phoenix), Charles X. (Shadow King, Onslaught), Hal Jordan (Parallax Entity) and more. So Calling Wanda on her "sh.." is really lame, cause I guess Hope never Got the memo on What really happen to Wanda? WOW a Teenage not pay Attention, what a Surprise! =O

So you want to call out the "sh.." on M-day, go talk to The Life Force Entity, I am sure it will leave you with a lasting impression like Parallax did to Hal Jordan.

#24 Edited by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@CJStriker:

I did a search couldn't find anything on this "Life Force Entity" can you link a wiki or something?

Edit: Just found it.

I wish Marvel was atleast honest with its stupid ass retcons.

#25 Posted by CJStriker (24 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCrowbar said:

@CJStriker:

I did a search couldn't find anything on this "Life Force Entity" can you link a wiki or something?

Edit: Just found it.

I wish Marvel was atleast honest with its stupid ass retcons.

Honestly my Friend this is what REALLY STEAMS me about Marvel the Past Few years, no appreciation for Character history at all.

What I learned from all this Dissemble Garbage is that WAY before Wanda made piece with her children'S death, but when the new Writers, Bendis included came in they "Cherry Pick" info from her past and a WHOLE NEW THING that made her "Suppress" the death of her children for now reason even enplaned? REALLY?!?!, that is what I learned, and I have THIS to backed it up with:

http://www.craveonline.com/comics/reviews/164643-review-avengers-the-childrens-crusade-5

Tell me what you think?

#26 Posted by HexThis (915 posts) - - Show Bio

I think there are a lot of variables missing when you compare Wanda to a genocidal maniac.

She's not like Hitler, she's a mutant who conceived her children with her reality altering abilities. She was never given time to mourn, she was actually swept of any memory of them for years. When she finally recalled she had, at one time, had children she broke down as any parent who lost a child would. She had resurrected Wonder Man previously as well as Magneto without even having been aware of it so naturally it would appear she felt at least capable of resurrecting her children but needed guidance.

Who wouldn't do that? Have you ever encountered a parent that lost a child? I have and if they had any hope of altering reality they would have. Wanda did, it backfired, her powers started acting up, and she was coerced into creating the House of M reality by Pietro.

I really don't see how you can justify carrying out such resentments towards her character. She takes ownership of her role in it but it's not as though any of this rooted back to any malicious intention. If I were Hope or anyone else I'd try to exercise some compassion.

#27 Posted by Daycrawler (555 posts) - - Show Bio

@CJStriker said:

@Daycrawler: Well that shows your level of Knowledge about what really happened to Wanda, here's an idea, go Read Children's Crusade and then make your comment please.

If you read that then you know the FACT that Wanda was POSSESSED by an Entity, The Life Force and that what led to all of this Stupid Garbage. Same Story as Jean Grey (Dark Phoenix), Charles X. (Shadow King, Onslaught), Hal Jordan (Parallax Entity) and more. So Calling Wanda on her "sh.." is really lame, cause I guess Hope never Got the memo on What really happen to Wanda? WOW a Teenage not pay Attention, what a Surprise! =O

So you want to call out the "sh.." on M-day, go talk to The Life Force Entity, I am sure it will leave you with a lasting impression like Parallax did to Hal Jordan.

Ummm, yeah I have already read Childrens Crusade and had noted the FACT that Wanda was POSSESSED by the Life Force. Seems to me that it's you that hasn't been paying enough attention though. Where Chuck and Jean were unwillingly possessed by the entities you mention, Wanda WILLINGLY let herself be POSSESSED by the Life Force. Big difference there which renders your comparison null and void. Also, she got Doc freakin' Doom to help her do it too! I repeat, she allowed Doctor Doom to help her be possessed by a powerful and unknown entity!

Allowing yourself to willingly be possessed by a powerful force under the guiding hand of Doc Doom is the action of a desperate, mentally unstable nutbag. Or an idiot. Definitely not the actions of any sane and rational person. Wanda even admits she was desperate (issue 7), which is as good as saying yeah, I made a mistake which lead me to do very bad things.

Sure, you could argue that what happened after was because the Life Force warped her tiny little mind and Wanda can't be held accountable, but to me that is bollocks. Like saying a sad, depressed lady who gets drunk, drives and runs over a bunch of innocent people (thus killing them) shouldn't be held accountable cos it was the 'alchohol force' that she'd willingly allowed to 'possess' her to 'fix her problems' that was responsible. Obviously ridiculous, much like your defense of Wanda.

#28 Posted by HexThis (915 posts) - - Show Bio

@Daycrawler said:

Ummm, yeah I have already read Childrens Crusade and had noted the FACT that Wanda was POSSESSED by the Life Force. Seems to me that it's you that hasn't been paying enough attention though. Where Chuck and Jean were unwillingly possessed by the entities you mention, Wanda WILLINGLY let herself be POSSESSED by the Life Force. Big difference there which renders your comparison null and void. Also, she got Doc freakin' Doom to help her do it too! I repeat, she allowed Doctor Doom to help her be possessed by a powerful and unknown entity!

Wanda wasn't willingly possessed by the Life Force, she was harnessing the power of the Life Force to resurrect her children. Doom explained that she could not control it's power, they didn't anticipate just how much control it required. Also, Jean surrendered her life to the Phoenix Force willingly in order to save the lives of the X-men, it presented itself in human form and had dialogue with her before she made her sacrifice. UncannyXmen.net details this quite thoroughly....

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=61&page=3

@Daycrawler said:

Allowing yourself to willingly be possessed by a powerful force under the guiding hand of Doc Doom is the action of a desperate, mentally unstable nutbag. Or an idiot. Definitely not the actions of any sane and rational person. Wanda even admits she was desperate (issue 7), which is as good as saying yeah, I made a mistake which lead me to do very bad things.

Firstly, the Scarlet Witch isn't the first hero to approach Dr. Doom as over the years the Fantastic Four have had quite a complicated relationship with him as well. If you're trying to peg Wanda for guilt by association then what about the X-men? They utilize Magneto's powers and persuasion and he's killed many people! During the Fatal Attractions arc he sent an electromagnetic pulse through the whole world that shut off electricity and killed people all over. Wanda's hardly the exception in this.

Not to mention, YEAH, she was irrational and desperate. She just found out that she had two children that died and everyone knew about it but her! what person wouldn't become desperate and unhinged in the midst of grief? And like I said, she had reality altering powers that were capable of reviving people composed of energy (like Wonder Man) so it's not so crazy she might think her children (who were created by her hex powers) could be revived. What parent wouldn't do everything they could to save the lives of their children?

Sure, you could argue that what happened after was because the Life Force warped her tiny little mind and Wanda can't be held accountable, but to me that is bollocks. Like saying a sad, depressed lady who gets drunk, drives and runs over a bunch of innocent people (thus killing them) shouldn't be held accountable cos it was the 'alchohol force' that she'd willingly allowed to 'possess' her to 'fix her problems' that was responsible. Obviously ridiculous, much like your defense of Wanda.

Yes, you're right, she's just like your average, run-of-the-mill criminal....except....for the memory wiping of her dead children conceived by her mutant powers which can alter reality. Seriously? You're comparing a cosmic force to alcohol? People don't become possessed when they drink alcohol and I don't think anyone's ever chugged a 40 thinking it would resurrect their children.

#29 Posted by CJStriker (24 posts) - - Show Bio

WOW, Nice Response HexThis! =) Made some Great Points. =)

#30 Posted by Daycrawler (555 posts) - - Show Bio

@HexThis said:

@Daycrawler said:

Ummm, yeah I have already read Childrens Crusade and had noted the FACT that Wanda was POSSESSED by the Life Force. Seems to me that it's you that hasn't been paying enough attention though. Where Chuck and Jean were unwillingly possessed by the entities you mention, Wanda WILLINGLY let herself be POSSESSED by the Life Force. Big difference there which renders your comparison null and void. Also, she got Doc freakin' Doom to help her do it too! I repeat, she allowed Doctor Doom to help her be possessed by a powerful and unknown entity!

Wanda wasn't willingly possessed by the Life Force, she was harnessing the power of the Life Force to resurrect her children. Doom explained that she could not control it's power, they didn't anticipate just how much control it required. Also, Jean surrendered her life to the Phoenix Force willingly in order to save the lives of the X-men, it presented itself in human form and had dialogue with her before she made her sacrifice. UncannyXmen.net details this quite thoroughly....

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=61&page=3

*sigh* so I misremembered Jean / Phoenix, but she did that in a truly extreme circumstance (burning spacecraft, seconds from death, NO other alternatives), not because she was a determined loon like Wanda.

Jean had no other alternatives, it was death for all on the shuttle or accept the Phoenix’s offer. A split second decision made during her failing strength, agonising struggle and the speed with which things were falling apart. Wanda, however, would have had a whole host of different paths she could have chosen, both good and bad, most of which would have been way better than working with Doc Doom to harness and unknown quantity such as the Life Force. How much time would she have had to consider all options and review the insanity of her plan? Days? Weeks? Months?

Jean didn’t work in conjunction with a supervillain, Wanda did. Jean was young, naive and inexperienced. Wanda however was supposedly an experienced senior member of the Avengers.

Jean/Phoenix was basically mainly cosmic force with elements of Jean's consiousness (so basically it wasn't Jean doing the bad stuff). The small fragment of Jean was what ultimately defeated the dark PF too. However, Wanda/Life Force was all Wanda and with the Life Force inside. Although she says that she doesn't remember what happened after the life force took control it looks like the destructive impluses of Life Force Wanda were down the the Wanda part of the symbiosis. Why else would she have went after the Avengers as her very first act (the people who had hidden stuff from Wanda?)

The comparison of Jeans situation to Wanda's only works so far and certainly can't be used as a direct, like for like comparison. Basically, Wanda was nutso before possesion and made some dubious and morally wrong decisions, with plenty of time to change her mind before it all went south.

@HexThis said:

@Daycrawler said:

Allowing yourself to willingly be possessed by a powerful force under the guiding hand of Doc Doom is the action of a desperate, mentally unstable nutbag. Or an idiot. Definitely not the actions of any sane and rational person. Wanda even admits she was desperate (issue 7), which is as good as saying yeah, I made a mistake which lead me to do very bad things.

Firstly, the Scarlet Witch isn't the first hero to approach Dr. Doom as over the years the Fantastic Four have had quite a complicated relationship with him as well. If you're trying to peg Wanda for guilt by association then what about the X-men? They utilize Magneto's powers and persuasion and he's killed many people! During the Fatal Attractions arc he sent an electromagnetic pulse through the whole world that shut off electricity and killed people all over. Wanda's hardly the exception in this.

Big deal, she’s not the first hero to approach Doom, so what? She did, it was stupid and it ended in disaster. I’m not trying to peg Wanda with guilt by association. Wanda justifiabley has guilt squarely on her shoulders already - which aside from her being a nut is kinda my point. Everyone knows Doom equals BAD so to go to him for help in harnessing the power of a cosmic Life Force entity is the action of a stupid person, a morally bankrupt person or a crazy person. I know Wanda isn’t the first two so that leaves the latter. I agree with you re: Magneto’s association with the X-Men btw, but I’m focussing on what Wanda did, her calculated craziness and that she’s still culpable for her actions, albeit with some mitigating ‘possession’ circumstances (if I'm being generous).

@HexThis said:

Not to mention, YEAH, she was irrational and desperate. She just found out that she had two children that died and everyone knew about it but her! what person wouldn't become desperate and unhinged in the midst of grief?

Um, quite a lot of people wouldn’t become ‘desperate and unhinged in the midst of grief’. Being grief filled does not mean you automatically start making stupid and crazy decisions. Different people react differently. How Wanda reacted to it was indeed, as you say, ‘unhinged’ (i.e. crazy, or like a nutbag, as I’ve been saying). Other people could have sought counselling, or sunk into a deep depression and been unable to function, or tried to be positive, or be angry with those who hid the facts, or cherish their loved ones memories and get on with life, etc. Like I said, there’s a whole bunch of different responses that can be taken, It’s just that Wanda didn’t. She was ‘unhinged’, though calculating and rational enough to form an alliance with Doom, and made a number of crazy decisions that ended in disaster.

@HexThis said:

And like I said, she had reality altering powers that were capable of reviving people composed of energy (like Wonder Man) so it's not so crazy she might think her children (who were created by her hex powers) could be revived. What parent wouldn't do everything they could to save the lives of their children?

But it is CRAZY when, realising her own powers don’t get the job done, like previous times, she enlists the aid of a hugely dangerous and treacherous villain to harness and potentially dangerous, unpredictable entity. Sure, parents might think they would do anything to get their kids back, but most would draw the line way before Wanda did.

@HexThis said:

Yes, you're right, she's just like your average, run-of-the-mill criminal....except....for the memory wiping of her dead children conceived by her mutant powers which can alter reality. Seriously? You're comparing a cosmic force to alcohol? People don't become possessed when they drink alcohol and I don't think anyone's ever chugged a 40 thinking it would resurrect their children.

You reaaallly didn't get the point I was making, did you? *sigh* No I’m not comparing cosmic forces directly with alcohol. I’m making a comparison along the lines of “good, but unstable woman >> willingly follows dangerous / unwise path >> judgement becomes impaired by self inflicted means (cosmic entity, alcohol, whetever) >> death and horrible things happen as a result". Breaking it down like this, should the victims’ relatives just forgive and forget? Should the woman be cleared of all responsibility or held as guilty because her initial, ill-judged actions led to disaster? I was using the alcohol story to break the same Wanda scenario down into something more real-world and relatable to make my point. I wasn’t saying being drunk is the same experience as being possessed by a cosmic entity. Wanda – “Yeah it was me, but I was under self-inflicted possession and not in control and can’t remember”, Woman – “Yeah it was me, but I was drunk and not in control and can’t remember”. Both scenarios are essentially self-inflicted and result in death and destruction. Sorry that you misunderstood.

#31 Edited by HexThis (915 posts) - - Show Bio

@Daycrawler said:

But it is CRAZY when, realising her own powers don’t get the job done, like previous times, she enlists the aid of a hugely dangerous and treacherous villain to harness and potentially dangerous, unpredictable entity. Sure, parents might think they would do anything to get their kids back, but most would draw the line way before Wanda did.

Yes, of all the reality-altering parents I've known who've lost children and resurrected people previously....none of them have chosen to do what Wanda did. Oh wait a minute, people don't actually have those kinds of powers, rarely even in comics. So how could you say they "draw the line"? They don't have the option!

Big deal, she’s not the first hero to approach Doom, so what? She did, it was stupid and it ended in disaster. I’m not trying to peg Wanda with guilt by association. Wanda justifiabley has guilt squarely on her shoulders already - which aside from her being a nut is kinda my point. Everyone knows Doom equals BAD so to go to him for help in harnessing the power of a cosmic Life Force entity is the action of a stupid person, a morally bankrupt person or a crazy person. I know Wanda isn’t the first two so that leaves the latter. I agree with you re: Magneto’s association with the X-Men btw, but I’m focussing on what Wanda did, her calculated craziness and that she’s still culpable for her actions, albeit with some mitigating ‘possession’ circumstances (if I'm being generous).

All I'm saying is that if you find what Wanda did to be unforgivably irresponsible, you should hold everyone else to the same standards unless you have some weird hangup about her in particular. She wasn't "stupid" or "nuts" to do what she did, seeing as how some of the smartest people in the MU have tried to work with villains or reformed villains in the past.

*sigh* so I misremembered Jean / Phoenix, but she did that in a truly extreme circumstance (burning spacecraft, seconds from death, NO other alternatives), not because she was a determined loon like Wanda.

So you wouldn't consider Wanda's children dying an extreme circumstance? See this is why I really can't dignify any of your points with a response because you keep calling her "nuts" and "crazy" and you almost never take into account that she lost her children, particularly when it comes to her state of mind.

Um, quite a lot of people wouldn’t become ‘desperate and unhinged in the midst of grief’. Being grief filled does not mean you automatically start making stupid and crazy decisions. Different people react differently. How Wanda reacted to it was indeed, as you say, ‘unhinged’ (i.e. crazy, or like a nutbag, as I’ve been saying). Other people could have sought counselling, or sunk into a deep depression and been unable to function, or tried to be positive, or be angry with those who hid the facts, or cherish their loved ones memories and get on with life, etc. Like I said, there’s a whole bunch of different responses that can be taken, It’s just that Wanda didn’t. She was ‘unhinged’, though calculating and rational enough to form an alliance with Doom, and made a number of crazy decisions that ended in disaster.

I have parents who've lost a child, I've met parents who've lost children, and I know a lot of parents who say that the absolute worst thing they could ever experience is losing a child. And none of those parents that I knew live in a world where there are reality-altering mutants or cosmic forces, I see that solution to losing a child not rational but understandable.

I've seen it first hand, I can't really judge a person who was using resources to save the lives of their children after having lost them. If it doesn't cause you to grow unhinged you're either in shock or an actual psychopath.

You reaaallly didn't get the point I was making, did you? *sigh* No I’m not comparing cosmic forces directly with alcohol. I’m making a comparison along the lines of “good, but unstable woman >> willingly follows dangerous / unwise path >> judgement becomes impaired by self inflicted means (cosmic entity, alcohol, whetever) >> death and horrible things happen as a result". Breaking it down like this, should the victims’ relatives just forgive and forget? Should the woman be cleared of all responsibility or held as guilty because her initial, ill-judged actions led to disaster? I was using the alcohol story to break the same Wanda scenario down into something more real-world and relatable to make my point. I wasn’t saying being drunk is the same experience as being possessed by a cosmic entity. Wanda – “Yeah it was me, but I was under self-inflicted possession and not in control and can’t remember”, Woman – “Yeah it was me, but I was drunk and not in control and can’t remember”. Both scenarios are essentially self-inflicted and result in death and destruction. Sorry that you misunderstood.

No, I understood, it was just a bad analogy because there's no real world equivalent to a mutant woman with reality-altering powers who loses her child and tries to use those same powers to resurrect them which results in global reality altering of all reality. I clearly understood but I just think there's so much more to Wanda's situation then a person who has to much to drink and operates a motor vehicle.

But, to answer your question, the victims won't get anything they lost out of hating Wanda. What? Is this all just about punishing somebody? She couldn't have foreseen any of this, she was only trying to save the lives of her children. Pietro was the one who ultimately coerced her into creating the House of M and this is after the Life Force possessed her.

I do believe criminals should be punished but not a Typhoid Mary sort of criminal (the historical figure, not the comicbook character) who unintentionally harmed people. It's sad, it's tragic but it's not a Hitler, Jeffery Dahmer, or Osama Bin Laden situation, sorry.

#32 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@HexThis:

Have to say, you are bang on about the effect on a person who loses a child. The refusal to accept the reality of it hits first --- pretty sure most would beg for the chance to get their child back. That kind of horrific heartbreak -- you would do anything to reverse it -- go back in time, make a deal with the devil, and yes, alter reality if able to.

Just saying, the consequences of her actions aside, Wanda's reaction to the news her children were gone was believable. Very.

#33 Posted by Daycrawler (555 posts) - - Show Bio

@HexThis said:

@Daycrawler said:

But it is CRAZY when, realising her own powers don’t get the job done, like previous times, she enlists the aid of a hugely dangerous and treacherous villain to harness and potentially dangerous, unpredictable entity. Sure, parents might think they would do anything to get their kids back, but most would draw the line way before Wanda did.

Yes, of all the reality-altering parents I've known who've lost children and resurrected people previously....none of them have chosen to do what Wanda did. Oh wait a minute, people don't actually have those kinds of powers, rarely even in comics. So how could you say they "draw the line"? They don't have the option!

Jesus H Christ! I wasn't drawing a direct equivalent that Wanda’s situation could be directly equated to real world examples. I suspect you know that. I like how you ignore my first statement above by the way. All I was trying to get across was the, in the real world, if the impossible were possible and a parent could get back their child, but for a terrible and deadly price, not everyone would do it. I suspect a lot wouldn't just like you suspect a lot would. Both points are just conjecture though unless either of us has performed a fully comprehensive study on the subject. I haven't. You?

@HexThis said:

Big deal, she’s not the first hero to approach Doom, so what? She did, it was stupid and it ended in disaster. I’m not trying to peg Wanda with guilt by association. Wanda justifiabley has guilt squarely on her shoulders already - which aside from her being a nut is kinda my point. Everyone knows Doom equals BAD so to go to him for help in harnessing the power of a cosmic Life Force entity is the action of a stupid person, a morally bankrupt person or a crazy person. I know Wanda isn’t the first two so that leaves the latter. I agree with you re: Magneto’s association with the X-Men btw, but I’m focussing on what Wanda did, her calculated craziness and that she’s still culpable for her actions, albeit with some mitigating ‘possession’ circumstances (if I'm being generous).

All I'm saying is that if you find what Wanda did to be unforgivably irresponsible, you should hold everyone else to the same standards unless you have some weird hangup about her in particular. She wasn't "stupid" or "nuts" to do what she did, seeing as how some of the smartest people in the MU have tried to work with villains or reformed villains in the past.

I agree with you re: having a consistent standard the everyone is held to, and have already discussed this with you on another thread. To quote:

"Both [Cyclops and Wanda] purposefully meddled with cosmic forces which ultimately possessed them and caused death and destruction. Both allied themselves with dubious characters (Magneto, Doom). Both killed their own colleagues (Xavier, Jack of Hearts). Both struck down their partners (Emma Frost, Vison). The parallels are astounding, yet Wanda walks free and Cyclops is in prison. I assume that you therefore think that both Wanda and Cyclops should be cut some slack, forgiven and not punished?"

I do find what Wanda has done irresponsible (though I never said unforgivabley so) as I find Cyclops recent behaviour. Scott has paid the price for this via imprisonment and Wanda should have too. Also she was stupid for working with Doom and was mentally unstable due to the loss of her kids. So other heroes have worked with villains before and in most cases it didn't end up all shiny did it? Just because other good guys do something doesn't automatically make it right/safe. Desperate and unstable as she was she would, or at least should have known this. It's obviously monumentally stupid to ask Doom to help you harness a cosmic force and not expect a high chance of it being extremely dangerous. Even if Wanda rushed in blind without thinking, which I doubt, this doesn't absolve her of blame.

@HexThis said:

*sigh* so I misremembered Jean / Phoenix, but she did that in a truly extreme circumstance (burning spacecraft, seconds from death, NO other alternatives), not because she was a determined loon like Wanda.

So you wouldn't consider Wanda's children dying an extreme circumstance? See this is why I really can't dignify any of your points with a response because you keep calling her "nuts" and "crazy" and you almost never take into account that she lost her children, particularly when it comes to her state of mind.

Yes its extreme in certain aspects, but children dying/parents grieving is a daily occurrence, both in the fictional and real world. Not many people, fictionally and in the real world, have found themselves in a burning space shuttle confronted by a cosmic entity with basically only two stark choices – die or accept the entities offer. That is truly extreme both in terms of emotion and the overall situation. Wanda had time to recover, had options on what to do and consider those options at length. Jean did not. It was split second for her with two options. That’s what I meant by extreme circumstances. That why I used the word ‘circumstance’, to refer to the situation as a whole and not just the emotional components.

Okay, maybe I was being a bit childish using the words nuts and crazy, but I am taking into account that her fragile and strained mental state was due to her childrens deaths. I've never said that she is crazy 'just because' or for no reason. I didn't think I needed to prefix every reference to Wanda's mental state with a note about how its all due to the death of her children.

@HexThis said:

Um, quite a lot of people wouldn’t become ‘desperate and unhinged in the midst of grief’. Being grief filled does not mean you automatically start making stupid and crazy decisions. Different people react differently. How Wanda reacted to it was indeed, as you say, ‘unhinged’ (i.e. crazy, or like a nutbag, as I’ve been saying). Other people could have sought counselling, or sunk into a deep depression and been unable to function, or tried to be positive, or be angry with those who hid the facts, or cherish their loved ones memories and get on with life, etc. Like I said, there’s a whole bunch of different responses that can be taken, It’s just that Wanda didn’t. She was ‘unhinged’, though calculating and rational enough to form an alliance with Doom, and made a number of crazy decisions that ended in disaster.

I have parents who've lost a child, I've met parents who've lost children, and I know a lot of parents who say that the absolute worst thing they could ever experience is losing a child. And none of those parents that I knew live in a world where there are reality-altering mutants or cosmic forces, I see that solution to losing a child not rational but understandable.

I've have relatives that have lost children (they didn't become desperate and unhinged) and I'm truly sorry to hear about your parents. I too have lots of friends with families that would find losing their children horrendous and hugely painful. Yes it's understandable but, painful as it may be, desperate well intentioned actions that have deadly outcomes still have to have some sort of repercussions.

@HexThis said:

I've seen it first hand, I can't really judge a person who was using resources to save the lives of their children after having lost them. If it doesn't cause you to grow unhinged you're either in shock or an actual psychopath.

Actions, however well intentioned and noble and understandable, still have consequences for the person (or should) if what they do leads to other’s death or suffering. Real world and fictional. You may be able to understand, relate to or sympathize with the person but you should not get a free pass because your motivations were pure or good. And by the way, you do know that synonyms for unhinged are lunatic, maniac and insane?

@HexThis said:

You reaaallly didn't get the point I was making, did you? *sigh* No I’m not comparing cosmic forces directly with alcohol. I’m making a comparison along the lines of “good, but unstable woman >> willingly follows dangerous / unwise path >> judgement becomes impaired by self inflicted means (cosmic entity, alcohol, whetever) >> death and horrible things happen as a result". Breaking it down like this, should the victims’ relatives just forgive and forget? Should the woman be cleared of all responsibility or held as guilty because her initial, ill-judged actions led to disaster? I was using the alcohol story to break the same Wanda scenario down into something more real-world and relatable to make my point. I wasn’t saying being drunk is the same experience as being possessed by a cosmic entity. Wanda – “Yeah it was me, but I was under self-inflicted possession and not in control and can’t remember”, Woman – “Yeah it was me, but I was drunk and not in control and can’t remember”. Both scenarios are essentially self-inflicted and result in death and destruction. Sorry that you misunderstood.

No, I understood, it was just a bad analogy because there's no real world equivalent to a mutant woman with reality-altering powers who loses her child and tries to use those same powers to resurrect them which results in global reality altering of all reality. I clearly understood but I just think there's so much more to Wanda's situation then a person who has to much to drink and operates a motor vehicle.

I know there’s not physical, real world equivelant re: reality-altering powers v alcohol consumtpion. I was using the analogy to point out the motivations and outcomes being essentially the same, not comparing the method of getting from A to B. Wanda’s can be read as an fable or parable once you strip out the fantastical elements and break it down into the basic emotional components (loss, mental instability, bad choices), the concrete results of actions (death, more emotional scarring, more loss). The method of getting from A to B, whether real world (alcohol) or fantastical (magic / cosmic) is just the tool used to explore these emotions, actions and their consequenses. The analogy was meant to get you to think about the basic facts of the matter, but you keep going back to ‘but Wanda’s a mutant witch with powers so how can you compare that to the real world’. I’m not. I’m analysing and comparing her emotions, moral actions, etc and the trail of destruction it leave. The real world comparable elements not the fantastical ones.

@HexThis said:

But, to answer your question, the victims won't get anything they lost out of hating Wanda. What? Is this all just about punishing somebody? She couldn't have foreseen any of this, she was only trying to save the lives of her children. Pietro was the one who ultimately coerced her into creating the House of M and this is after the Life Force possessed her.

Actually, she should have foreseen that tampering with cosmic forces and working with Doom could an likely would have bad consequences, as I have said. Whilst the victims won’t gain much from hating Wanda they would have some form of closure were she to be punished (locked up, not torture). Pietro may have coerced, which makes him an accomplice and should be punished to, but Wanda did the damage and caused the deaths. She may have only been trying to save her kids, but again, that can’t be used as an excuse or ‘get out of jail free’ card. Her actions, however well intentioned, ended in disaster. She should answer to that. Just like Cyclops has. Just like Magneto should, etc.

@HexThis said:

I do believe criminals should be punished but not a Typhoid Mary sort of criminal (the historical figure, not the comicbook character) who unintentionally harmed people. It's sad, it's tragic but it's not a Hitler, Jeffery Dahmer, or Osama Bin Laden situation, sorry.

You’ve heard of manslaughter right (or the US equivalent), where someone accidentally causes a death through negligence or taking a stupid course of action that resulted in the death? Same deal for Wanda. I never said she was evil like Hitler or Dahmer, etc. I don't view her as such. She's a tragic and at times sympathetic figure that's made huge mistakes (which she should have been punished for) and is now seeking redemption. You even call Typhoid Mary a criminal yet say the people of this type should not be punished? So in your view Wanda is a Typhoid Mary type of figure, which in turn means she is a criminal of a less nasty variety so no charges should be brought. If you are a criminal you should be punished in some from or another. I was not aware there was a category of criminal that can commit crimes without fear of punishment.

Grieving woman makes bad choices whilst mentally unstable that results in peoples deaths. Manslaughter. Criminal. Should be punished. Happened to Cyclops, why not Wanda? *cough* Cap *cough*

Look we could go at this for ever and neither one of us will change the other's mind. Guess I'm just passionate about my point of view as are you for yours. All part of the fun!

#34 Posted by HexThis (915 posts) - - Show Bio

@Daycrawler said:

Jesus H Christ! I wasn't drawing a direct equivalent that Wanda’s situation could be directly equated to real world examples. I suspect you know that. I like how you ignore my first statement above by the way. All I was trying to get across was the, in the real world, if the impossible were possible and a parent could get back their child, but for a terrible and deadly price, not everyone would do it. I suspect a lot wouldn't just like you suspect a lot would. Both points are just conjecture though unless either of us has performed a fully comprehensive study on the subject. I haven't. You?

But the "terrible, deadly price" is only accounted for in retrospect. Wanda didn't know the life force would have the effects it did on her powers, I'll admit it was careless of her to test it but it's not so ridiculous that she would try. She's actually capable resurrection as we've seen with Wonder Man, Agatha Harkness, and Magneto- all of which had little to no consequence.

I wasn't being passive aggressive or pretending not to understand your analogy but just trying to make the point there is no tangible real world equivalent to Wanda's situation. Like I've said, there are so many variables and x-factors that make her particular situation so unique, I find it pretty hard to pass judgement on her as if her situation is normal and I don't think any of those variables should be excluded.

I do find what Wanda has done irresponsible (though I never said unforgivabley so) as I find Cyclops recent behaviour. Scott has paid the price for this via imprisonment and Wanda should have too. Also she was stupid for working with Doom and was mentally unstable due to the loss of her kids. So other heroes have worked with villains before and in most cases it didn't end up all shiny did it? Just because other good guys do something doesn't automatically make it right/safe. Desperate and unstable as she was she would, or at least should have known this. It's obviously monumentally stupid to ask Doom to help you harness a cosmic force and not expect a high chance of it being extremely dangerous. Even if Wanda rushed in blind without thinking, which I doubt, this doesn't absolve her of blame.

Well, the difference between Wanda and Cyclops was that, regardless of who Doom is, she was unaware of the effects of the Life Force. Scott, on the other hand, knew very well what the Phoenix force was capable of and chose to harbor it knowingly, without it's influence taking possession over him for the benefit of the mutants regardless of the potential ramifications for the rest of the world (or worlds).

Now, does ignorance grant Wanda complete innocence? Not necessarily, I don't think it makes her a candidate for damnation though. Scott, on the other hand, wasn't possessed when he chose to wage war on the Avengers and protect the Phoenix force.

Wanda wanted to restore the lives of her children using a cosmic force, her intentions weren't to overtake the world or eliminate mutants or kill any of the Avengers before the possession. Scott wanted to preserve mutants potentially at the cost of humans and his allies. There's a difference in their motives and convictions. Frankly, the more I think about it, the more Scott looks somewhat elitist as a mutant the way Magneto does.

Yes its extreme in certain aspects, but children dying/parents grieving is a daily occurrence, both in the fictional and real world. Not many people, fictionally and in the real world, have found themselves in a burning space shuttle confronted by a cosmic entity with basically only two stark choices – die or accept the entities offer.

Well, it's not exactly a daily occurrence (perhaps more so in 3'rd world countries or in different points in history) but it is still quite unusual. Yes, people lose children but not very many people have self-conceived by way of mutation nor have many people been lied to about the deaths of their children. Those two components make Wanda's situation incredibly different and they're too important to be ignored.

Wanda created her children by way of will only, that level of control of reality would change a person's perception and provide options that would not be available to someone otherwise, extremely tempting options. Also, given the Avengers lied about Wanda's kids to her for years, it somewhat explains why she didn't go to them first and went to Doom instead.

Also, might I mention, it wasn't entirely ethical of the Avengers to withhold this information from Wanda either. Agatha Harkness advised them to for fear Wanda would lose her mind but if she were really smart she would've wiped their memories too so there wouldn't even be the opportunity to tell Wanda.

I've have relatives that have lost children (they didn't become desperate and unhinged) and I'm truly sorry to hear about your parents. I too have lots of friends with families that would find losing their children horrendous and hugely painful. Yes it's understandable but, painful as it may be, desperate well intentioned actions that have deadly outcomes still have to have some sort of repercussions.

That's a valid point but I just don't think it's applicable to Wanda. She actually was capable of resurrecting people and giving life to her children without consequence previously. I'm sure it wouldn't be unreasonable for her to believe she accomplish the feat again, therefore the risk of her messing it up with the Life Force was lesser than just any other mutant or superhero.

Actions, however well intentioned and noble and understandable, still have consequences for the person (or should) if what they do leads to other’s death or suffering. Real world and fictional. You may be able to understand, relate to or sympathize with the person but you should not get a free pass because your motivations were pure or good. And by the way, you do know that synonyms for unhinged are lunatic, maniac and insane?

Well, lunatic and maniac are more colloquialisms rather than technical terms, nobody classifies people as those things anymore. I understand your usage of it and I don't necessarily mind it in other contexts but I just feel in this one it isn't a fair assessment. My stance on Wanda definitely does lean somewhat on certain attributes of her character and her intentions but I just think when you look at the entire picture, it's not as criminal or malicious to me.

She was a person in a very bizarre predicament. She self-conceived her children, they died, she was deceived for years, and she has all this power at her fingertips she'd recently shown a remarkable control over....I see a lot of people making the same decision Wanda made, I can understand it. I don't see how Wanda or anyone else in her place could've imagined this scenario ending with mutants being almost wiped out.

That why I compared her to Typhoid Mary or Mary Fallon (her real name). She caught the typhoid fever but wasn't aware she had it, probably couldn't afford to see a doctor or get medicine so she continued to work at this soup kitchen to earn a living. She unknowingly infected people which resulted in a few deaths. But, so far as she knew, she had a virus or an ailment she felt as though she could outlast and had no idea she would be a carrier to this terrible ailment. At least she was arguably innocent during the initial outbreak, then she just got really stupid and stubborn and refused to be cleanly (that's where she and Wanda differ). She's definitely not the best example overall but in just initial incident. I know people who work in the food service industry that go to work sick, if one of them had some obscure ailment no one could predict then how culpable would they really be?

To me, she was just the first domino in the line that provoked the rest to fall but through no other reason than simple misfortune. Wanda's obviously a little different but one of her isolated actions led to a series of others that were completely unanticipated which is similar in concept.

Actually, she should have foreseen that tampering with cosmic forces and working with Doom could an likely would have bad consequences, as I have said. Whilst the victims won’t gain much from hating Wanda they would have some form of closure were she to be punished (locked up, not torture). Pietro may have coerced, which makes him an accomplice and should be punished to, but Wanda did the damage and caused the deaths. She may have only been trying to save her kids, but again, that can’t be used as an excuse or ‘get out of jail free’ card. Her actions, however well intentioned, ended in disaster. She should answer to that. Just like Cyclops has. Just like Magneto should, etc.

Like I said, she couldn't go to the Avengers, she wouldn't be the first hero to join forces with Doom, and she'd achieved resurrections in the past. You can argue she could've foreseen the outcome but there's also a case for her actions, an argument that isn't so unreasonable for her to have done what she did.

And the damage Wanda caused happened after the effects of the Life Force. I don't actually think Scott or Wanda or Jean or anyone possessed by a cosmic force should be held accountable for what that cosmic force chooses to do with their vessel so I don't adhere to the belief that Wanda caused the damage herself.

I also have a lot of issues with the way HoM went down. First Pietro coerced Wanda while she was in a vulnerable state and then Scott (in all his brilliance) decided the best plan of attack would be to just drop in like an atom bomb on the woman whom reality hinged upon. Then Magneto, another thinker, brutally murdered Pietro in front of Wanda who was so lost in psychosis not even Emma could read her. There was a lot of savage behavior from our heroes that resulted in M-day. Wanda said the words but there was a lot of needless provocation.

Grieving woman makes bad choices whilst mentally unstable that results in peoples deaths. Manslaughter. Criminal. Should be punished. Happened to Cyclops, why not Wanda? *cough* Cap *cough*

You even call Typhoid Mary a criminal yet say the people of this type should not be punished? So in your view Wanda is a Typhoid Mary type of figure, which in turn means she is a criminal of a less nasty variety so no charges should be brought.

Oh no, I didn't call Typhoid Mary a criminal at all and ultimately she was only held in quarantine but never really imprisoned or charged. She was actually quite stupid in her handling after having been taken in for investigation like I said, I was really only referencing her initial "crime". People get probation for manslaughter all the time though if it can proved they weren't behaving negligently, their innocence hinges upon how much arguable negligence they showed. And I don't perceive Wanda's behavior as completely negligent or sufficiently negligent to be penalized in the same way.

Should she have known better? The X-men have found a valuable asset in many of their enemies. Emma, at one point, tried to summon the Phoenix Force for the Hellfire Club and now she's running the show, Namor has tried to overtake the world on a few occassions but also managed to save it in aiding the X-men and Fantastic Four, Wolverine was a killer....is it only when things go right that this sort of behavior and these allegiances are considered to be wise? At any point, with their backs turned, all of the previously mentioned could've been stabbed in the back.

Doom also was in love with Wanda and had no malicious intentions himself, it wasn't even because of Doom that things went south. It was the Life Force, it just couldn't be controlled. Was it meddlesome of them? Yes. But Wanda was born with powers that meddled with reality as it was and had a greater degree of control over them than she had ever previously had been shown to. Hell, she subconsciously created life from nothing, I don't blame her for thinking she could again.

#35 Edited by PassionFlower (963 posts) - - Show Bio

@HexThis: I love how you stand up for Wanda. I understand the anger and passion she brings out in people--but I feel for her...

#36 Posted by Daycrawler (555 posts) - - Show Bio

@HexThis said:

Okay, just gonna respond in one go rather than point by point, so apologies in advance if I miss any of your points, it's not intentional. It's late and I gotta go to work soon.....

She didn't know the LF would've had bad consequences, sure, and it's not toooo ridiculous of her to try. But, as you say, it was careless and people died / were harmed. However, carelessness and ignorance don't often get you off manslaughter charges, or if they do then you are at least officially judged on the matter. You don't get to walk away without even so much as an investigation.

All we get in Childrens Crusade by way of an explanation / excuse is that she was under the LF's influence and can't remember what happened. Question still remains (or should at least be explored) as to how much of her actions at this point were still actually hers and how much can be attributed to the LF? Not remembering doesn't automatically mean she was no longer in control of her LF-imbued actions and decisions. For example, Rahne was fully aware of what she was doing as part of X-Force, but the trauma of her actions caused her to blank it out for a time when back at X-Factor. Wanda did go after the Avengers as soon as she got the LF! To me that's Wanda's desire and need for payback, not any desire the LF had. This is the exact opposite of Dark Phoenix Scott for example, where his consciousness was overwhelmed and it was the PF's desires that shone through when all the major bad stuff happened.

The only other witness to Wanda possession by the LF is Doom, who no-one could characterise as honest and reliable. All we get from him is some vague corroboration of Wanda's story (when he's trying to paint himself as the misunderstood 'good guy', therefor could be full of it) or another vague 'I controlled /used Wanda' when he's showing his true colours and has been defeated.

Also, you say she's capable of resurrection but that failed her and she resorted to trying to tap the LF's power. So sure her resurrection powers have been used to little/no adverse consequence, but thats a moot point as she wasn't using them cos they didn't work for what she was trying to do.

As for the Cyclops comparison, yup Scott chose to pursue/use a known dangerous entity. It's about the only real difference I can see in the Wanda / Scott comparison though. I personally don't think that Scott's initial intent was to restore mutantkind at any cost. He thought the PF + Hope would do that without any bad side-effects or death, etc. That was kind borne out by the fact the this is exactly what happened once Hope got the PF. The death and destruction bits only really happened when Scott and the others were accidentally imbued with PF fragments by those pesky Avengers and the Avengers attacked them time and again which eroded their patience and sanity. Sure what he did was reckless and lead to death, but his motivation was well intentioned. Like Wanda. He still deserved to pay for what went down though, both for his actions when in control and when he was possessed and not in a right frame of mind. Just like Wanda. The motivations differ slightly (that could prob be a whole different argument!) and the level of ignorance going into their respective situations differ, but it was both their conscious decisions to play with powerful cosmic forces to further their own aims. If anyone does that in the MU and it goes horribly wrong they should be held to account. It feels like all we are really debating here is what level of accountability for Wanda, and I feel it what she did quite obviously constitute manslaughter possibly through diminished responsibility (not confirmed!) which should result in some form of punishment or institutionalization. And as you state, and I've already said, ignorance doesn't mean innocence

though. Wanda should have been judged and in my opinion should have been imprisoned and psycho-analysed to ensure she is no longer a danger, since we currently only have her (and partially Dooms) word that she's fine. Who's to say possession of the LF did not physically or mentally damage her, or that she still retains fragments of the LF that could flare up and cause more trouble. It's ridiculous she's not been mentally or physically checked or put before a court of some sort. Especially when Cyclops is currently locked up without trial in a secret location.

Bottom line there are a whole bunch of circumstances that could or did make Wanda's situation sympathetic and her actions understandable to an extent. However, I can't see any circumstance where she should be allowed to walk away from what she did without any consequences. Sympathy and understanding motivation don't mean no repercussions. She should have faced interrogation, examination and a trial to determine the level of culpability:

She was of unsound mind & can't remember - result: Go to a secure mental hospital for analysis/recovery

She was of sound mind, but then possessed - result: Go to jail for manslaughter.

She was of sound mind, possessed but self-aware: result: Go to jail for a looong time.

Can't think of a scenario where the result would be 'Okay we believe your explanation, as corroborated by Doom, and we also accept your self-diagnosis of being sane/possession-free - absolutely no action/investigation/examination will be taken. You are free to go, and also to re-join the Avengers'. It's not logical. It's not responsible. It's not a balanced response (re:Cyclops). It's not justifiable.

#37 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

Is there any point to discuss this as of now?

#38 Posted by CJStriker (24 posts) - - Show Bio

@x_29 said:

Is there any point to discuss this as of now?

@x_29: Ahh, it is always an interesting Discussion to have, but it has warn thin for me. May get back into it at some other point, but seems old now. I am now into the "Uncanny Avengers" and Marvel Now Era so much that even "AvX" event seems to be getting old too, LOL. Good question X_29! =)

#39 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

@CJStriker said:

@x_29 said:

Is there any point to discuss this as of now?

@x_29: Ahh, it is always an interesting Discussion to have, but it has warn thin for me. May get back into it at some other point, but seems old now. I am now into the "Uncanny Avengers" and Marvel Now Era so much that even "AvX" event seems to be getting old too, LOL. Good question X_29! =)

Thanks Piccolo :)

#40 Posted by GREGalicious (486 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: THANK YOU!! Im so sick of Wanda catching blame when it was "others" who used her mental issues to manipulate her for their own purposes.

#41 Posted by soduh2 (868 posts) - - Show Bio

@HexThis: Well, the difference between Wanda and Cyclops was that, regardless of who Doom is, she was unaware of the effects of the Life Force. Scott, on the other hand, knew very well what the Phoenix force was capable of and chose to harbor it knowingly, without it's influence taking possession over him for the benefit of the mutants regardless of the potential ramifications for the rest of the world (or worlds).

Regardless of Cyclops' actions, the Phoenix was still coming. Cyclops didn't harbor the phoenix anymore than we can harbor a giant asteroid on a collision course with the Earth. Not to mention Cyclops has had history with the phoenix knowing that it can be controlled unless the host influenced by a third party (which is what happened to Jean).

#42 Posted by Daycrawler (555 posts) - - Show Bio

@x_29 said:

Is there any point to discuss this as of now?

Guess things did get a bit long-winded! Reckon the whole Wanda / Scott debate will rumble on for a while yet tho, given what's been going on in Uncanny Avengers & AvX Consequences (and what looks like will be happening in All New X-Men, given what Bendis has been saying).

#43 Posted by poisonfleur (3117 posts) - - Show Bio

Still can't believe Wanda isn't in a cell next to Cyclops.

#44 Posted by HexThis (915 posts) - - Show Bio

@poisonfleur said:

Still can't believe Wanda isn't in a cell next to Cyclops.

She can't be now that he's basically started up a new Brotherhood with one of the biggest, deadliest guerilla mutant crusaders. Somehow, in spite of their genetic links, Wanda's managed to avoid Magneto.

#45 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

@poisonfleur said:

Still can't believe Wanda isn't in a cell next to Cyclops.

I can't believe its not butter. ( You brought this pun upon yourself)

#46 Posted by CharlieJade (422 posts) - - Show Bio

she is a horrible person

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