Wonder Woman #17 - Demination

@Superguy1591 said:

@Outside_85: And Superman and Wonder Woman are set to interact in the next books(Wonder Woman and Superman # 20)

Is saracasm directed at the fact that it seems that the JL series as become the Superman/Wonder Woman series because if so I agree.

@Outside_85 said:

@Power_Guy: Name a run that's consistently sold better. The ones you've mentioned only spiked for certain issues, nothing more. And loosing 5k readers in 6 months, normal, every book sheds that amount.

Really? Has Justice League shed that many since August? How about Batman?

And how is Azzarello's run selling consistent at all when it's lost 5K in unit sales since August and 1,500 in just the last month?

When the book first launched it came in at #16 on Diamond's top 100 chart. Last month, it wasn't even in the top 50.

@Power_Guy: Name a run that's consistently sold better. The ones you've mentioned only spiked for certain issues, nothing more. And loosing 5k readers in 6 months, normal, every book sheds that amount.

@Outside_85 said:

@Power_Guy said:

Wow.......you're so quick to dismiss anything that tarnishes Azzarello's take on Diana and her world. That is blind loyalty defined.

As far as my family source knowing Marston's intentions for Wonder Woman and her world, it is one of Marston's direct descendants not some 3rd cousin or step-nephew. I would bet every penny I have that this person knows Marston's intentions a lot better than you or Azzarello do.

As far as me and others not buying enough to prevent this, could the same be said about the changes made to other characters/books in the New 52 such as the Justice League International, Savage Hawkman, and Legion Lost - all of which are now or soon to be cancelled? Considering Wonder Woman is down almost 5K in unit sales since August and lost almost 1,500 units in sales last month alone, I wouldn't get too gutsy if I were you.

No, thats simply because for once in several decades Wonder Woman is actually a good book that's worth reading.

You'd loose that bet because you havent been talking to Marston or one of his braincells, and I am pretty sure you have not been talking to any of his kids, so chances are you've been talking to someone who's never met him.

I'll be as gutsy as I like, thing is not only is the book critically praised, it is still constantly seeing better sales than any other run in at least a decade. So yeah, its a critical and financial success, dont expect to see your version again.

Honestly, I don't know if my source had met Marston but they have a very close relationship with his wife who was very insightful as to what Marston wanted for the character.

Yes, the book has critics that like it AND it has critics that don't care for it just like any book does. Critical success means just about nothing when it comes to the bottom line or fan acceptance. Plus, I've heard whispers that a lot of the positive reviews that this book has been given on popular comic sites have been "motivated by payola" in the form of previews and interviews with the creative team. The book was also deep discounted to retailers for the first 6 months of it's run which is why it seemed to sell so well at first.

As far as the book selling better than any other run in the last decade, that's inaccurate as well as there have been many successful runs on Wonder Woman in the last decade by Jimenez, Rucka, Heinburg, and even the beginning of Simone's run. Plus how good can this book really be classified as selling when it's down nearly 5K un units since August? The book is starting to tank so how long do you honestly think "your version" is going to last?

@Power_Guy said:

Wow.......you're so quick to dismiss anything that tarnishes Azzarello's take on Diana and her world. That is blind loyalty defined.

As far as my family source knowing Marston's intentions for Wonder Woman and her world, it is one of Marston's direct descendants not some 3rd cousin or step-nephew. I would bet every penny I have that this person knows Marston's intentions a lot better than you or Azzarello do.

As far as me and others not buying enough to prevent this, could the same be said about the changes made to other characters/books in the New 52 such as the Justice League International, Savage Hawkman, and Legion Lost - all of which are now or soon to be cancelled? Considering Wonder Woman is down almost 5K in unit sales since August and lost almost 1,500 units in sales last month alone, I wouldn't get too gutsy if I were you.

No, thats simply because for once in several decades Wonder Woman is actually a good book that's worth reading.

You'd loose that bet because you havent been talking to Marston or one of his braincells, and I am pretty sure you have not been talking to any of his kids, so chances are you've been talking to someone who's never met him.

I'll be as gutsy as I like, thing is not only is the book critically praised, it is still constantly seeing better sales than any other run in at least a decade. So yeah, its a critical and financial success, dont expect to see your version again.

@Outside_85 said:

@Power_Guy said:

So if Azzzarello is just making the same moves as previous writers, is he not repeating plot points? Just because someone else is guilty of the same thing, that does't absolve Azzarello.

As for your judgement on Marston's intentions with Wonder Woman and the Amazons, you're the one who's incorrect. I have been in touch with a member of the Marston family and they were the one who explained to me why Marston set up the Amazons the way he did. It was about accomplishment, not hatred towards men or the desire to rule them. This family member also advised me that Azzarello's run on Wonder Woman is not in line with Marston's vision. They also mentioned that they were very disappointed in the current treatment of Wonder Woman and her world in Diana's solo book.

If you're enjoying the book, I'm happy for you but this is not Wonder Woman to me and many others.

It's silly to complain about it, that's what it is.

Considering Marston was radical in just about every sense of the word and has been dead for over 50 years, I seriously doubt that person you spoke to has any better grasp of his mind and intentions than anyone else.

As for the 'many others'...well you weren't buying enough to prevent this.

Wow.......you're so quick to dismiss anything that tarnishes Azzarello's take on Diana and her world. That is blind loyalty defined.

As far as my family source knowing Marston's intentions for Wonder Woman and her world, it is one of Marston's direct descendants not some 3rd cousin or step-nephew. I would bet every penny I have that this person knows Marston's intentions a lot better than you or Azzarello do.

As far as me and others not buying enough to prevent this, could the same be said about the changes made to other characters/books in the New 52 such as the Justice League International, Savage Hawkman, and Legion Lost - all of which are now or soon to be cancelled? Considering Wonder Woman is down almost 5K in unit sales since August and lost almost 1,500 units in sales last month alone, I wouldn't get too gutsy if I were you.

@Power_Guy said:

So if Azzzarello is just making the same moves as previous writers, is he not repeating plot points? Just because someone else is guilty of the same thing, that does't absolve Azzarello.

As for your judgement on Marston's intentions with Wonder Woman and the Amazons, you're the one who's incorrect. I have been in touch with a member of the Marston family and they were the one who explained to me why Marston set up the Amazons the way he did. It was about accomplishment, not hatred towards men or the desire to rule them. This family member also advised me that Azzarello's run on Wonder Woman is not in line with Marston's vision. They also mentioned that they were very disappointed in the current treatment of Wonder Woman and her world in Diana's solo book.

If you're enjoying the book, I'm happy for you but this is not Wonder Woman to me and many others.

It's silly to complain about it, that's what it is.

Considering Marston was radical in just about every sense of the word and has been dead for over 50 years, I seriously doubt that person you spoke to has any better grasp of his mind and intentions than anyone else.

As for the 'many others'...well you weren't buying enough to prevent this.

@Outside_85 said:

@Power_Guy said:

Wow....you sound like a blind loyalist to Azzarello. Marston's intentions for Wonder Woman and the other Amazons was not to create sexism towards men but to show that during a very sexist time period in which women were thought to be incapable that they could be shining examples of inspiration and achievement. His Amazons built up a beautifully structured home, created amazing devices such as the Purple Healing Ray, and fostered an environment that was virtually free of crime.

As for your statement that there's practically nothing lifted from other WW stores, here are some examples of how Azzarello has done exactly that:

1.) He killed off Hippolyta just like Jimenez did during his run.

2.) He brought in a new supporting cast just like JMS did in his run.

3.) He has Diana at odds with the Olympians which was done most recently in Simone's run when Zeus introduced the male Amazons and Odysseus.

4.) He gave Diana a new base of operations just like Byrne did when he moved Diana to Gateway City.

and these examples are just off the top of my head.

No, I am not blind, in fact I think I see things clearer than you do since you don't appear to know very much about Marstons philosophy judging by the first bit. He wasn't just for female empowerment and equality, he wanted them to rule the world and the only reason be believed that hadn't happened yet was because of all the housework that was slowly shrinking because of modern inventions.

1. Hippolyta died during a massive crossover to add the usual shock value. And making her and the Amazons vanish has been used quite often in the past to stop Diana from simply remaining there.
2. You mean like everyone has. WML brought in Taco Bell and Artemis, Byrne brought in Cassandra, Helena, Etrigan & Crew, Donna, Artemis and Hippolyta. Rucka brought in his Embassy Staff and Io. And so on...
3. Ares has been Diana's enemy since her début so her fighting her own gods is hardly unusual, even Perez had her decapitate one of Ares' sons.
4. You mean like everyone has. WML had her sleeping on someone's couch, Byrne in Gateway, Rucka in New York, post-IC it was Washington DC.

My point is that it's pointless to complain about Azzarello ripping off previous writers, when most of those writers have made the exact same moves when they came onto the book.

My genuine hope is that when Azzarello is done with his run, DC and the following writer will keep the current cast and address so we can avoid the constantly on the move bs I listed above.

So if Azzzarello is just making the same moves as previous writers, is he not repeating plot points? Just because someone else is guilty of the same thing, that does't absolve Azzarello.

As for your judgement on Marston's intentions with Wonder Woman and the Amazons, you're the one who's incorrect. I have been in touch with a member of the Marston family and they were the one who explained to me why Marston set up the Amazons the way he did. It was about accomplishment, not hatred towards men or the desire to rule them. This family member also advised me that Azzarello's run on Wonder Woman is not in line with Marston's vision. They also mentioned that they were very disappointed in the current treatment of Wonder Woman and her world in Diana's solo book.

If you're enjoying the book, I'm happy for you but this is not Wonder Woman to me and many others.

@Power_Guy said:

Wow....you sound like a blind loyalist to Azzarello. Marston's intentions for Wonder Woman and the other Amazons was not to create sexism towards men but to show that during a very sexist time period in which women were thought to be incapable that they could be shining examples of inspiration and achievement. His Amazons built up a beautifully structured home, created amazing devices such as the Purple Healing Ray, and fostered an environment that was virtually free of crime.

As for your statement that there's practically nothing lifted from other WW stores, here are some examples of how Azzarello has done exactly that:

1.) He killed off Hippolyta just like Jimenez did during his run.

2.) He brought in a new supporting cast just like JMS did in his run.

3.) He has Diana at odds with the Olympians which was done most recently in Simone's run when Zeus introduced the male Amazons and Odysseus.

4.) He gave Diana a new base of operations just like Byrne did when he moved Diana to Gateway City.

and these examples are just off the top of my head.

No, I am not blind, in fact I think I see things clearer than you do since you don't appear to know very much about Marstons philosophy judging by the first bit. He wasn't just for female empowerment and equality, he wanted them to rule the world and the only reason be believed that hadn't happened yet was because of all the housework that was slowly shrinking because of modern inventions.

1. Hippolyta died during a massive crossover to add the usual shock value. And making her and the Amazons vanish has been used quite often in the past to stop Diana from simply remaining there.
2. You mean like everyone has. WML brought in Taco Bell and Artemis, Byrne brought in Cassandra, Helena, Etrigan & Crew, Donna, Artemis and Hippolyta. Rucka brought in his Embassy Staff and Io. And so on...
3. Ares has been Diana's enemy since her début so her fighting her own gods is hardly unusual, even Perez had her decapitate one of Ares' sons.
4. You mean like everyone has. WML had her sleeping on someone's couch, Byrne in Gateway, Rucka in New York, post-IC it was Washington DC.

My point is that it's pointless to complain about Azzarello ripping off previous writers, when most of those writers have made the exact same moves when they came onto the book.

My genuine hope is that when Azzarello is done with his run, DC and the following writer will keep the current cast and address so we can avoid the constantly on the move bs I listed above.

@Outside_85 said:

@Power_Guy said:

I'm not sure how you see adding in extra male influences into Wonder Woman's history is anything but sexist when she was previously created without a father along with being raised, mentored, and trained only by the all-female Amazons. In regard to the "butt slap", again, if that was the only incident, I would agree with you but when you start adding things up........

You can say it's contradictory but if he had done the proper research, he would be aware of major plots point from Wonder Woman's history and he most likely(if he's an ethical man) would not be rehashing plot points from previous runs on Wonder Woman.

Wonder Woman's creation and the Amazon Utopia has always been sexist. Being sexist means belittleing, humilitating or oppressing one gender in favour of the other. Most often it's male belitteling female, but in WW's case its been female belitteling male because Marston held them both up as perfect because men werent involved; that utopia and perfection could not be achieved as long as men was in the process. Adding Zeus, Wonder Woman stops being sexist.

And as I said, it's untrue, theres practically nothing in his book thats been lifted from other WW stories. Unlike, say Scott Snyder and his Court of Owls thats was just a copy of Morrisons Black Glove.

Wow....you sound like a blind loyalist to Azzarello. Marston's intentions for Wonder Woman and the other Amazons was not to create sexism towards men but to show that during a very sexist time period in which women were thought to be incapable that they could be shining examples of inspiration and achievement. His Amazons built up a beautifully structured home, created amazing devices such as the Purple Healing Ray, and fostered an environment that was virtually free of crime.

As for your statement that there's practically nothing lifted from other WW stores, here are some examples of how Azzarello has done exactly that:

1.) He killed off Hippolyta just like Jimenez did during his run.

2.) He brought in a new supporting cast just like JMS did in his run.

3.) He has Diana at odds with the Olympians which was done most recently in Simone's run when Zeus introduced the male Amazons and Odysseus.

4.) He gave Diana a new base of operations just like Byrne did when he moved Diana to Gateway City.

and these examples are just off the top of my head.

@Outside_85 said:

@Power_Guy said:

I'm not sure how you see adding in extra male influences into Wonder Woman's history is anything but sexist when she was previously created without a father along with being raised, mentored, and trained only by the all-female Amazons. In regard to the "butt slap", again, if that was the only incident, I would agree with you but when you start adding things up........

You can say it's contradictory but if he had done the proper research, he would be aware of major plots point from Wonder Woman's history and he most likely(if he's an ethical man) would not be rehashing plot points from previous runs on Wonder Woman.

Wonder Woman's creation and the Amazon Utopia has always been sexist. Being sexist means belittleing, humilitating or oppressing one gender in favour of the other. Most often it's male belitteling female, but in WW's case its been female belitteling male because Marston held them both up as perfect because men werent involved; that utopia and perfection could not be achieved as long as men was in the process. Adding Zeus, Wonder Woman stops being sexist.

Agreed.

And as I said, it's untrue, theres practically nothing in his book thats been lifted from other WW stories. Unlike, say Scott Snyder and his Court of Owls thats was just a copy of Morrisons Black Glove.

Mixed in with The Cult!

@Power_Guy said:

I'm not sure how you see adding in extra male influences into Wonder Woman's history is anything but sexist when she was previously created without a father along with being raised, mentored, and trained only by the all-female Amazons. In regard to the "butt slap", again, if that was the only incident, I would agree with you but when you start adding things up........

You can say it's contradictory but if he had done the proper research, he would be aware of major plots point from Wonder Woman's history and he most likely(if he's an ethical man) would not be rehashing plot points from previous runs on Wonder Woman.

Wonder Woman's creation and the Amazon Utopia has always been sexist. Being sexist means belittleing, humilitating or oppressing one gender in favour of the other. Most often it's male belitteling female, but in WW's case its been female belitteling male because Marston held them both up as perfect because men werent involved; that utopia and perfection could not be achieved as long as men was in the process. Adding Zeus, Wonder Woman stops being sexist.

And as I said, it's untrue, theres practically nothing in his book thats been lifted from other WW stories. Unlike, say Scott Snyder and his Court of Owls thats was just a copy of Morrisons Black Glove.

@Outside_85 said:

@Power_Guy said:

If it were one incident, I would agree with you but changing Diana's origin to include a father, having her be trained by a male deity instead of her sister Amazons, and now the "butt slap" makes it seem like sexist propaganda. I'm not even sure why Azzarello is writing this book as he said he's never been interested in Wonder Woman and he didn't do much of any research on her or previous storylines before he took over the book. I guess that could be why he keeps rehashing plots from previous WW writers' runs.

There is nothing sexist about adding a father, if anything it's making the book less sexist (the door swings both ways).

Ares trained her for a total of 12 days, spread across an single year. The Amazons took care of the rest.

As for the butt-slap, the only one who appears to think it was an ok move was Orion, so claiming that Azzarello endorses this kind of behaviour is about as valid as accusing Scott Snyder of being a serial killer because he writes about the Joker killing people.

I dont know but you last two sentences appear to directly contradict one another; He hasn't read anything...yet he's still ripping it off. Also, its not true.

I'm not sure how you see adding in extra male influences into Wonder Woman's history is anything but sexist when she was previously created without a father along with being raised, mentored, and trained only by the all-female Amazons. In regard to the "butt slap", again, if that was the only incident, I would agree with you but when you start adding things up........

You can say it's contradictory but if he had done the proper research, he would be aware of major plots point from Wonder Woman's history and he most likely(if he's an ethical man) would not be rehashing plot points from previous runs on Wonder Woman.

@Power_Guy said:

If it were one incident, I would agree with you but changing Diana's origin to include a father, having her be trained by a male deity instead of her sister Amazons, and now the "butt slap" makes it seem like sexist propaganda. I'm not even sure why Azzarello is writing this book as he said he's never been interested in Wonder Woman and he didn't do much of any research on her or previous storylines before he took over the book. I guess that could be why he keeps rehashing plots from previous WW writers' runs.

There is nothing sexist about adding a father, if anything it's making the book less sexist (the door swings both ways).

Ares trained her for a total of 12 days, spread across an single year. The Amazons took care of the rest.

As for the butt-slap, the only one who appears to think it was an ok move was Orion, so claiming that Azzarello endorses this kind of behaviour is about as valid as accusing Scott Snyder of being a serial killer because he writes about the Joker killing people.

I dont know but you last two sentences appear to directly contradict one another; He hasn't read anything...yet he's still ripping it off. Also, its not true.

@Owie said:

@Power_Guy said:

@Owie said:

@Power_Guy said:

@Owie said:

I've liked the story. But saying there's nothing wrong with this book? The art was atrocious. Every time Chiang skips an issue, its quality drops by half. It's fine if they have to get fill-in artists, but why can't they get someone who can step up to the level Chiang has set, or at least get someone who has passable standard skills? This issue was especially bad with its mix of multiple artists, all of whom were amazingly poor. Look at some of those facial expressions and some of those poses.

The thing that I've noticed is that a lot of folks who are enjoying this run seem to be oblivious to anything inappropriate that occurs whether it's sexist, perverse, or goes against what Wonder Woman's creator had intended her and her world to be about. Overly cartoony, inconsistent art is just one of this book's problems.

The comic could well be against what Marston wanted to be about. I don't really know, because I have in the past not ever been a Wonder Woman reader. I've been reading comics in general for a pretty long time, and this run is the first time I've ever read any of her solo comics, let alone put it on my pull list. So I'm more concerned with whether it's interesting than whether it's true to the original concept. Of course, since I've never read it before, I don't have to worry about the feeling of the clash between the old and the new, since only the new exists for me.

In the abstract, I don't really know if it's important for any comic to follow the idea of its creator. Comics are a medium that have many writers and artists over the years. I don't think the creator is necessarily more important than any other; they might well have had a lesser vision of the character than a later artist/writer. I do think that once a character has found a particular vision that clicks with an audience and makes it unique and speak to people, then it's too bad if that vision is diluted or changed for the worse. But even then sometimes that vision just runs its course and a new vision takes over that is equally worthwhile and fits in with a new time. Taking Batman as an example, I am equally a fan of the 60s TV show and The Dark Knight Returns. Very different, both enjoyable. And is either of these the vision of Bob Kane?

In terms of whether it's sexist or perverse...I don't know about perverse, but it does bother me when comics are sexist, or other objectionable -ists. However, I don't know that I've really noticed that here. What examples would you give for that being the case in Wonder Woman recently?

Well, I think there have been several examples of sexism in Azzarello's run such as making Zeus Diana's father, having her get her fighting skills from Ares instead of the Amazons, and the recent "butt slap" by Orion. The book just seems to cater to male chauvinists more than it ever has before.

I'm not sure how the first two of those are really sexist. Less feminist, perhaps. I can appreciate a critique of the comic on the grounds of it being less feminist. But I take sexist to mean something that is actually derogatory to women. Orion's actions could be seen as sexist, but I think that's how we're supposed to understand him as a character (at least a little). I don't take it as meaning that Azzarello is somehow giving his imprimatur to that kind of behavior. In fact I'm pretty sure Diana is not gong to take too much more of Orion's jack-bull ego, and will get some payback for that kind of stuff. So I don't see how any of that is catering to chauvinists.

If it were one incident, I would agree with you but changing Diana's origin to include a father, having her be trained by a male deity instead of her sister Amazons, and now the "butt slap" makes it seem like sexist propaganda. I'm not even sure why Azzarello is writing this book as he said he's never been interested in Wonder Woman and he didn't do much of any research on her or previous storylines before he took over the book. I guess that could be why he keeps rehashing plots from previous WW writers' runs.

@Power_Guy said:

@Owie said:

@Power_Guy said:

@Owie said:

I've liked the story. But saying there's nothing wrong with this book? The art was atrocious. Every time Chiang skips an issue, its quality drops by half. It's fine if they have to get fill-in artists, but why can't they get someone who can step up to the level Chiang has set, or at least get someone who has passable standard skills? This issue was especially bad with its mix of multiple artists, all of whom were amazingly poor. Look at some of those facial expressions and some of those poses.

The thing that I've noticed is that a lot of folks who are enjoying this run seem to be oblivious to anything inappropriate that occurs whether it's sexist, perverse, or goes against what Wonder Woman's creator had intended her and her world to be about. Overly cartoony, inconsistent art is just one of this book's problems.

The comic could well be against what Marston wanted to be about. I don't really know, because I have in the past not ever been a Wonder Woman reader. I've been reading comics in general for a pretty long time, and this run is the first time I've ever read any of her solo comics, let alone put it on my pull list. So I'm more concerned with whether it's interesting than whether it's true to the original concept. Of course, since I've never read it before, I don't have to worry about the feeling of the clash between the old and the new, since only the new exists for me.

In the abstract, I don't really know if it's important for any comic to follow the idea of its creator. Comics are a medium that have many writers and artists over the years. I don't think the creator is necessarily more important than any other; they might well have had a lesser vision of the character than a later artist/writer. I do think that once a character has found a particular vision that clicks with an audience and makes it unique and speak to people, then it's too bad if that vision is diluted or changed for the worse. But even then sometimes that vision just runs its course and a new vision takes over that is equally worthwhile and fits in with a new time. Taking Batman as an example, I am equally a fan of the 60s TV show and The Dark Knight Returns. Very different, both enjoyable. And is either of these the vision of Bob Kane?

In terms of whether it's sexist or perverse...I don't know about perverse, but it does bother me when comics are sexist, or other objectionable -ists. However, I don't know that I've really noticed that here. What examples would you give for that being the case in Wonder Woman recently?

Well, I think there have been several examples of sexism in Azzarello's run such as making Zeus Diana's father, having her get her fighting skills from Ares instead of the Amazons, and the recent "butt slap" by Orion. The book just seems to cater to male chauvinists more than it ever has before.

I'm not sure how the first two of those are really sexist. Less feminist, perhaps. I can appreciate a critique of the comic on the grounds of it being less feminist. But I take sexist to mean something that is actually derogatory to women. Orion's actions could be seen as sexist, but I think that's how we're supposed to understand him as a character (at least a little). I don't take it as meaning that Azzarello is somehow giving his imprimatur to that kind of behavior. In fact I'm pretty sure Diana is not gong to take too much more of Orion's jack-bull ego, and will get some payback for that kind of stuff. So I don't see how any of that is catering to chauvinists.

@Owie said:

@Power_Guy said:

@Owie said:

I've liked the story. But saying there's nothing wrong with this book? The art was atrocious. Every time Chiang skips an issue, its quality drops by half. It's fine if they have to get fill-in artists, but why can't they get someone who can step up to the level Chiang has set, or at least get someone who has passable standard skills? This issue was especially bad with its mix of multiple artists, all of whom were amazingly poor. Look at some of those facial expressions and some of those poses.

The thing that I've noticed is that a lot of folks who are enjoying this run seem to be oblivious to anything inappropriate that occurs whether it's sexist, perverse, or goes against what Wonder Woman's creator had intended her and her world to be about. Overly cartoony, inconsistent art is just one of this book's problems.

The comic could well be against what Marston wanted to be about. I don't really know, because I have in the past not ever been a Wonder Woman reader. I've been reading comics in general for a pretty long time, and this run is the first time I've ever read any of her solo comics, let alone put it on my pull list. So I'm more concerned with whether it's interesting than whether it's true to the original concept. Of course, since I've never read it before, I don't have to worry about the feeling of the clash between the old and the new, since only the new exists for me.

In the abstract, I don't really know if it's important for any comic to follow the idea of its creator. Comics are a medium that have many writers and artists over the years. I don't think the creator is necessarily more important than any other; they might well have had a lesser vision of the character than a later artist/writer. I do think that once a character has found a particular vision that clicks with an audience and makes it unique and speak to people, then it's too bad if that vision is diluted or changed for the worse. But even then sometimes that vision just runs its course and a new vision takes over that is equally worthwhile and fits in with a new time. Taking Batman as an example, I am equally a fan of the 60s TV show and The Dark Knight Returns. Very different, both enjoyable. And is either of these the vision of Bob Kane?

In terms of whether it's sexist or perverse...I don't know about perverse, but it does bother me when comics are sexist, or other objectionable -ists. However, I don't know that I've really noticed that here. What examples would you give for that being the case in Wonder Woman recently?

Well, I think there have been several examples of sexism in Azzarello's run such as making Zeus Diana's father, having her get her fighting skills from Ares instead of the Amazons, and the recent "butt slap" by Orion. The book just seems to cater to male chauvinists more than it ever has before.

@Outside_85 said:

@gokuwarrior: Well that bit about the right writer being able to make them shine is true about just about every character. My gripe with many of of WW's human foes is that they can only challenge her indirectly by going after people Diana cares about rather than Diana herself. Like most of Batman's foes challenge him mentally, because most of them aren't worth squat against him in a fight granted, while some like Croc and Bane can rival him physically. Lex Luthor challenges Superman normally by being a problem he cant simply punch while Zod is a real physical threat in person. Diana's human foes are however quite often neither in her physical league (like Giganta, and quite often Cheeta because she's only occasionally been shown to rival Diana's speed) or possess powers that simply don't work on Diana (Dr. Psycho for instance because of the Lasso).

They can be elevated however, but it either requires Diana to be less over the moon powerful or plausible reasons to why these people are actually a threat to her. Dr. Psycho could easily become a threat if say, Azzarello, re-imagined him as being divinely-empowered with his telepathic powers to a degree that he (perhaps as the only telepath) could affect Diana to a degree. Silver Swan could be tied to the Sirens that recently attacked SM & WW (like the very first Swan was connected to Ares)... honestly I'd prefer if the majority of Diana's foes had these sort of mystical connections because both makes them threats that Diana is uniquely equipped to handle (like she was the go-to person for Batwoman when she figured out she was dealing with the actual Medusa and Hydra-Croc) while at the same time making them dangerous opponents for her to face. You can have the odd tech-based or alien foe amongst them, but they should be exceptions to the rule.

I like your suggestion to tie some of the non-deity rogues to the Olympians. I've thought for a while now that Dr. Poison could be an agent of Ares. Aegeus could be a thief who covets the Olympians' weapons. Queen Clea could become the avatar of Poseidon. There are lots of possibilities here if Azzarello put his mind to them.

@Outside_85: characters like silver swan and cheetah are powerful enough to fight diana when they are in the hands of writers like perez and ruka,writers that know how powerful they are supposed to be to fight a powerhouse like diana,perez knew that,so he made cheetah the avatar of a god,so cheetah is divinely powered with super strength,healing factor and super speed,and her most dangerous power is her speed,she is supposed to be faster than diana(in movement speed)and diana is only able to tag her thanks to diana's reaction speed,and that's how writers like perez,ruka and simone were able to make cheetah a powerful villan for diana,but when writers like bryn ruin characters and other writers let cheetah get owned by street level characters,that's when the good work of a writer is destroyed by the stupidity of other writer.

silver sawn is also a powerhouse when she is writen properly,she has super speed,durability and her sonic beam is a very powerful attack,a way more powerful version of black canary's scream that is way above the city buster level,but again,only a few writers made silver swan that powerful which shows that only a few writers understood which is diana's power level and how powerful these villans must be to face someone in diana's league,the only writers that wrote diana and her villans properly when it comes to power level and feats are perez,ruka and simone.

@Power_Guy said:

@Owie said:

I've liked the story. But saying there's nothing wrong with this book? The art was atrocious. Every time Chiang skips an issue, its quality drops by half. It's fine if they have to get fill-in artists, but why can't they get someone who can step up to the level Chiang has set, or at least get someone who has passable standard skills? This issue was especially bad with its mix of multiple artists, all of whom were amazingly poor. Look at some of those facial expressions and some of those poses.

The thing that I've noticed is that a lot of folks who are enjoying this run seem to be oblivious to anything inappropriate that occurs whether it's sexist, perverse, or goes against what Wonder Woman's creator had intended her and her world to be about. Overly cartoony, inconsistent art is just one of this book's problems.

The comic could well be against what Marston wanted to be about. I don't really know, because I have in the past not ever been a Wonder Woman reader. I've been reading comics in general for a pretty long time, and this run is the first time I've ever read any of her solo comics, let alone put it on my pull list. So I'm more concerned with whether it's interesting than whether it's true to the original concept. Of course, since I've never read it before, I don't have to worry about the feeling of the clash between the old and the new, since only the new exists for me.

In the abstract, I don't really know if it's important for any comic to follow the idea of its creator. Comics are a medium that have many writers and artists over the years. I don't think the creator is necessarily more important than any other; they might well have had a lesser vision of the character than a later artist/writer. I do think that once a character has found a particular vision that clicks with an audience and makes it unique and speak to people, then it's too bad if that vision is diluted or changed for the worse. But even then sometimes that vision just runs its course and a new vision takes over that is equally worthwhile and fits in with a new time. Taking Batman as an example, I am equally a fan of the 60s TV show and The Dark Knight Returns. Very different, both enjoyable. And is either of these the vision of Bob Kane?

In terms of whether it's sexist or perverse...I don't know about perverse, but it does bother me when comics are sexist, or other objectionable -ists. However, I don't know that I've really noticed that here. What examples would you give for that being the case in Wonder Woman recently?

@gokuwarrior: Well that bit about the right writer being able to make them shine is true about just about every character. My gripe with many of of WW's human foes is that they can only challenge her indirectly by going after people Diana cares about rather than Diana herself. Like most of Batman's foes challenge him mentally, because most of them aren't worth squat against him in a fight granted, while some like Croc and Bane can rival him physically. Lex Luthor challenges Superman normally by being a problem he cant simply punch while Zod is a real physical threat in person. Diana's human foes are however quite often neither in her physical league (like Giganta, and quite often Cheeta because she's only occasionally been shown to rival Diana's speed) or possess powers that simply don't work on Diana (Dr. Psycho for instance because of the Lasso).

They can be elevated however, but it either requires Diana to be less over the moon powerful or plausible reasons to why these people are actually a threat to her. Dr. Psycho could easily become a threat if say, Azzarello, re-imagined him as being divinely-empowered with his telepathic powers to a degree that he (perhaps as the only telepath) could affect Diana to a degree. Silver Swan could be tied to the Sirens that recently attacked SM & WW (like the very first Swan was connected to Ares)... honestly I'd prefer if the majority of Diana's foes had these sort of mystical connections because both makes them threats that Diana is uniquely equipped to handle (like she was the go-to person for Batwoman when she figured out she was dealing with the actual Medusa and Hydra-Croc) while at the same time making them dangerous opponents for her to face. You can have the odd tech-based or alien foe amongst them, but they should be exceptions to the rule.

@Outside_85: the only reason why characters like silver swan,cheetah and dr pycho haven't worked sometimes is because some writer didn't really know how to do a good job with them,and of course,a lot of writers have used them as the punching bag,making a lot of street level characters humiliate them,like catwoman beating cheetah,but those villans have potential,and they only need a writer able to make them shine and be what they are supposed to be,and they better make it fast,because wonder woman having only gods as villans would be like hercules or xena TV series.

@Owie said:

I've liked the story. But saying there's nothing wrong with this book? The art was atrocious. Every time Chiang skips an issue, its quality drops by half. It's fine if they have to get fill-in artists, but why can't they get someone who can step up to the level Chiang has set, or at least get someone who has passable standard skills? This issue was especially bad with its mix of multiple artists, all of whom were amazingly poor. Look at some of those facial expressions and some of those poses.

The thing that I've noticed is that a lot of folks who are enjoying this run seem to be oblivious to anything inappropriate that occurs whether it's sexist, perverse, or goes against what Wonder Woman's creator had intended her and her world to be about. Overly cartoony, inconsistent art is just one of this book's problems.

I've liked the story. But saying there's nothing wrong with this book? The art was atrocious. Every time Chiang skips an issue, its quality drops by half. It's fine if they have to get fill-in artists, but why can't they get someone who can step up to the level Chiang has set, or at least get someone who has passable standard skills? This issue was especially bad with its mix of multiple artists, all of whom were amazingly poor. Look at some of those facial expressions and some of those poses.

@Superguy1591 said:

@Power_Guy: You're enjoying everything, but the best book in this reboot? Weird, that's weird, and again, she can fly. She's a shade below Superman and it seems as if if she took of her bracelets she could be his better...and that includes speed. Super-speed works for stealth, and why not just borrow a jet from the league if she needs to carry people around?? She needs an invisible jet like Flash needs a Flash mobile...

Also, Diana is the focal point of all 18 books, not the gods. She is the main character and the appeal of it. The gods are just a free rouges gallery that actually give her a challenge, unlike her weak human rouges. When you have characters as powerful as Superman and Diana, you need villains as powerful and as interesting and the gods supplement the lady in both. And to add to you're design argument, iconic doesn't always mean it still has an appeal. Superman's undies are "iconic", but it doesn't mean it is appealing to his audience. The gods look like...gods instead of humans and their designs are, wait for it, appealing.

It doesn't matter all this has been done before, BA is making it work, but you'd have to read more than 1/3rd of the books to see how great his story telling actually is. The Trevor thing isn't BA's doing, it's orders from the top. Superman and Wonder Woman are an item, Trevor can suck eggs. And their lack of interaction was explained in the Justice League books already, they stay out of each other's professional lives and only interact when the need arises...like Superman # 19, Wonder Woman # 20 and Superman #20.

Well, I enjoy seeing the Invisible Jet and I've stated my reasons why I feel it's useful which is good enough for me.

I don't see how Diana is the focal point of this book any more when in several of the issues I read, she appeared on less pages than the Olympians did.

Only a poor writer would have to rely on beings as physically powerful as Wonder Woman to give her a proper challenge. Any writer with a good imagination could make just about any villain give Wonder Woman quite a headache.

As for you classifying the gods as being appealing, I find that hard to agree with as Hermes has chicken-feet, Poseidon looks like a cheap stuffed toy from Walmart, and Hades looks like someone smashed a birthday cake on his head. Plus I take into account the 3 gods that are now dead-wringers for real-life people. Not very appealing when it's a complete rip-off....

Even if Wonder Woman isn't dating Trevor, he could still be in her book but if you really think he shouldn't appear because they're not together any more, then why isn't Superman in this book at least occasionally? I listened to a podcast interview with Azzarello and he said he has no plans to touch upon the Wonder Woman/Superman pairing. That seems sloppy and arrogant to me considering that it's such a huge event in the DC Universe.

And if what BA is doing is working so well then why is the book down almost 5,000 units in sales since August? Why did it drop almost 1,500 units alone in January? It seems like I'm not the only one who's bored and sick of Azzarello's one-trick pony of mythology.

@Power_Guy: You're enjoying everything, but the best book in this reboot? Weird, that's weird, and again, she can fly. She's a shade below Superman and it seems as if if she took of her bracelets she could be his better...and that includes speed. Super-speed works for stealth, and why not just borrow a jet from the league if she needs to carry people around?? She needs an invisible jet like Flash needs a Flash mobile...

Also, Diana is the focal point of all 18 books, not the gods. She is the main character and the appeal of it. The gods are just a free rouges gallery that actually give her a challenge, unlike her weak human rouges. When you have characters as powerful as Superman and Diana, you need villains as powerful and as interesting and the gods supplement the lady in both. And to add to you're design argument, iconic doesn't always mean it still has an appeal. Superman's undies are "iconic", but it doesn't mean it is appealing to his audience. The gods look like...gods instead of humans and their designs are, wait for it, appealing.

It doesn't matter all this has been done before, BA is making it work, but you'd have to read more than 1/3rd of the books to see how great his story telling actually is. The Trevor thing isn't BA's doing, it's orders from the top. Superman and Wonder Woman are an item, Trevor can suck eggs. And their lack of interaction was explained in the Justice League books already, they stay out of each other's professional lives and only interact when the need arises...like Superman # 19, Wonder Woman # 20 and Superman #20.

I can agree that part of Diana's uniqueness is her mythological ties but that's far from the extent of her differences from Superman and Batman. Her compassion, fighting skills, and being raised in a society of all women help to differentiate her from Clark and Bruce as well. I don't mind the Olympians appearing in the book occasionally(I do like a good fight with Ares once in a while), I just feel that Azzarello is over-doing it with them and when he ignores her familiar supporting cast and villains, it just doesn't seem much like Wonder Woman any more to me. The fact that he turned the Amazons into man-killing, baby-trading savages doesn't help either. Marston intended for his version of the Amazons to be shining examples of feminine accomplishment and inspiration, not barbarians who gawk about the smell of musk.

Almost all of Wonder Woman's non-deity villains are worthy of her time in the hands of a decent writer just as Luthor, the Toyman, Parasite, and the Atomic Skull are for Superman.

Yes, Trevor and Candy are appearing in the Justice League books(thankfully otherwise they'd most likely be non-existent in the New 52) but they could also appear in Wonder Woman's book just as Alfred has appeared in JL and Batman in the same months.

At the very least, DC should start up a 2nd Wonder Woman book with a more straight-up superheroic approach and feature Diana's familiar supporting cast and rogues gallery.

@Superguy1591 said:

What's with all the whiners? This is the best book in the 52, enjoy it while it last. Azzerello is mixing humor, with action with drama with suspense and you guys are crying because they decided that Diana made of clay is stupid. If my eyes could roll any faster they'd be outside my head....

Most Pre-52 Wonder Woman fans are notoriously whiny and annoying. Just ignore them.

@Power_Guy said:

I don't see why the Olympian's designs needed to be changed. Their style of dress was part of what made them identifiable and iconic. It would be like if Chiang redesigned Santa Clause to be a giant teddy bear wearing a red and white speedo. Yeah, it would be different but not much of a point to it beyond that. Different just to be different is never a good idea IMO.

I've always thought of the Cheetah as Diana's arch-nemesis. She's madness, greed, and cruelty defined - all of which Diana stands against. Ares to me, is like Diana's Mongul, not her Lex Luthor or her Joker. Queen Clea was featured in both Jimenez and Heinburg's runs on Wonder Woman. I think she would be perfect for a crossover between Wonder Woman and Aquaman.

Your list of the Olympians appearing in the book and having personalities only substantiates the point that they have taken over this book. Azzarello isn't wrong for wanting to write about them but perhaps they should have their own book so that Wonder Woman can get hers back and it can feature the more familiar elements of her world. Her book did have problems selling in the last few years but that, I believe, was mostly due to the large amount of campiness Simone injected into the later part of her run and the multiple changes to the creative team that came after her. Before that, Wonder Woman sold just as well, if not better, than she is now when folks like Byrne, Jimenez, and Heinburg were on the book. Even the beginning of Simone's run sold quite well.

The reason for the change is that the Olympians designs were stock. Not just in DC, but in every movie, book or comic-book out there. The old designs are not so much iconic as they are historically embedded. So now when Chiang and Akins version shows up, you will know that you are dealing with the DC/WW versions, and not Marvels, Clash/Wrath of the Titans or any of the other's thats just copied off statues.

Guess it comes down to perception. To me Ares (the old one at least) embodied senseless violence, deceit, oppression, genocide and all the horrors that war brings. All of which is diametrically opposite of what Diana stands for. Add to this he is the one that engineered the fall of the Amazons, while Cheeta is 'just' the first foe Diana encounters in Man's World in most cases.

First up, you shouldn't bring up Byrne as a counterweight to Azzarello's take, because Byrne was by far the worst writer in regards to side-lining Diana, his book was more about Hippolyta, Donna and Artemis. He even made her into a goddess just to get her out of the way...and he started off with killing half of Themyscira.

And no, I don't think the Olympians should be divorced from this book, because Diana's mythological angle is what makes her unique out of the Trinity, the human foes however can be traded around and make good villains for the others as well...and most of them could probably become regular Batman foes, since they tend to rely on certain gimmicks and be over the moon crazy. So yeah, I do think her human foes are a part of the books problem; they appear to be someone else's villains. (Like the Joker is considered the greatest villain in all comics, but that's only because he plays so well against Batman.)

As for her old support cast, well its been kind of a trend that WW-writers bring in and remove them as they see fit, quite often having resulted in the established system being flushed out when a new writer comes on board to make way for a their new set. And since Trevor and Candy are busy elsewhere, Diana is pretty much out of luck when it comes to recognizable classics.

@Outside_85 said:

@Power_Guy said:

Actually, I have read issues 1 through 5, 15, and the current issue. I think it's strange that you consider the current version of the gods to have unique visuals considering that Strife looks like Britney Spears when she shaved her head, Milan is a dead wringer for Wesley Willis, and War was modeled after Azzarello himself. How are those designs unique when they clearly rip off real people? As for Diana "just human" foes, clearly you're not all that familiar with them as the Cheetah is far from human. Queen Clea is an Atlantean. Circe is powerful enough to take on Wonder Woman and Superman(as shown in Jimenez's run). Plus Lex Luthor has shown time and time again that a mere human can be quite a problem for someone with vast abilities so there's no reason why characters like Dr. Poison can't play in that same arena.

Your statement that removing the Amazons is a story telling gimmick is right on the mark and that gimmick has been done several times before in various Wonder Woman runs so it's a little tired to see it done yet again but Azzarello hasn't really brought much of anything new to the table with Wonder Woman. He has, however, put the focus on the Olympians which is why Diana seems more like a supporting character in her own book.

If you and others wants to be blind loyalists to Azzarello and see no wrong with what he's doing, be my guest but the book is down almost 5,000 units in sales from 6 months ago so I hope you have a good campaign strategy to save it.

Well, if you've read less than a quarter of the books, you will have missed out on a few bits.

The designs are unique in the sense that they have never been used to portray these characters. And especially these characters that almost everywhere else are depicted as chiton-dressed white humans. Despite my usual love for all things George Perez, his Olympians aren't unique, they are just more of the same...and his Strife (called Eris) was pretty much just a girl-Ares in design. And Ares is pretty much just what people expect to see when the God of War appears.

Cheeta is a magically powered human with little to no motives for doing what she does, which is why I am not particularly fond of her (and I dont agree with the notion she is Diana's arch-nemesis, that title belongs to Ares). Queen Clea hasn't been seen since the Silver Age as far as I am aware. And Circe started off as being the host of Hecate the Witch Goddess, so no, she's not really human, and hasnt been for millennia. On the note of Lex, unfortunately none of Diana's foes are as slippery as he is. Veronica Cale tried, but was then shipped of to Oolong.

As for mixing the mortal foes with Gods, I think Hades says it the best:

Cheeta, Poison and Psycho are not in the Olympians weight-class...and funnily enough not in Diana's in most cases.

In regards to the support cast, I deeply disagree with the notion of Azzarello not bringing anything new to the table; because most of the Olympians were barely seen much less acted or spoke the last 25 or so years. Athena and Ares were the most frequent, but most of the others we left on the sideline. So now we have; Lennox, Zola, Hera, Milan, Sirraca, Eros, Hephaestus as the most immediate cast, while Hades, Ares and Hermes have gotten new personalties. And finally Apollo, Dionysus, Poseidon, Demeter actually have personalities. To my count there's been 25 people with names introduced so far and I am pretty sure we will get more before its all over.

Doesn't need to be saved, it's consistently a better seller now than it's been in nearly a decade if not more. That said I am not blindly following anything, I am just defending this book from having to return to a form that was slowly killing it.

I don't see why the Olympian's designs needed to be changed. Their style of dress was part of what made them identifiable and iconic. It would be like if Chiang redesigned Santa Clause to be a giant teddy bear wearing a red and white speedo. Yeah, it would be different but not much of a point to it beyond that. Different just to be different is never a good idea IMO.

I've always thought of the Cheetah as Diana's arch-nemesis. She's madness, greed, and cruelty defined - all of which Diana stands against. Ares to me, is like Diana's Mongul, not her Lex Luthor or her Joker. Queen Clea was featured in both Jimenez and Heinburg's runs on Wonder Woman. I think she would be perfect for a crossover between Wonder Woman and Aquaman.

Your list of the Olympians appearing in the book and having personalities only substantiates the point that they have taken over this book. Azzarello isn't wrong for wanting to write about them but perhaps they should have their own book so that Wonder Woman can get hers back and it can feature the more familiar elements of her world. Her book did have problems selling in the last few years but that, I believe, was mostly due to the large amount of campiness Simone injected into the later part of her run and the multiple changes to the creative team that came after her. Before that, Wonder Woman sold just as well, if not better, than she is now when folks like Byrne, Jimenez, and Heinburg were on the book. Even the beginning of Simone's run sold quite well.

@Power_Guy said:

Actually, I have read issues 1 through 5, 15, and the current issue. I think it's strange that you consider the current version of the gods to have unique visuals considering that Strife looks like Britney Spears when she shaved her head, Milan is a dead wringer for Wesley Willis, and War was modeled after Azzarello himself. How are those designs unique when they clearly rip off real people? As for Diana "just human" foes, clearly you're not all that familiar with them as the Cheetah is far from human. Queen Clea is an Atlantean. Circe is powerful enough to take on Wonder Woman and Superman(as shown in Jimenez's run). Plus Lex Luthor has shown time and time again that a mere human can be quite a problem for someone with vast abilities so there's no reason why characters like Dr. Poison can't play in that same arena.

Your statement that removing the Amazons is a story telling gimmick is right on the mark and that gimmick has been done several times before in various Wonder Woman runs so it's a little tired to see it done yet again but Azzarello hasn't really brought much of anything new to the table with Wonder Woman. He has, however, put the focus on the Olympians which is why Diana seems more like a supporting character in her own book.

If you and others wants to be blind loyalists to Azzarello and see no wrong with what he's doing, be my guest but the book is down almost 5,000 units in sales from 6 months ago so I hope you have a good campaign strategy to save it.

Well, if you've read less than a quarter of the books, you will have missed out on a few bits.

The designs are unique in the sense that they have never been used to portray these characters. And especially these characters that almost everywhere else are depicted as chiton-dressed white humans. Despite my usual love for all things George Perez, his Olympians aren't unique, they are just more of the same...and his Strife (called Eris) was pretty much just a girl-Ares in design. And Ares is pretty much just what people expect to see when the God of War appears.

Cheeta is a magically powered human with little to no motives for doing what she does, which is why I am not particularly fond of her (and I dont agree with the notion she is Diana's arch-nemesis, that title belongs to Ares). Queen Clea hasn't been seen since the Silver Age as far as I am aware. And Circe started off as being the host of Hecate the Witch Goddess, so no, she's not really human, and hasnt been for millennia. On the note of Lex, unfortunately none of Diana's foes are as slippery as he is. Veronica Cale tried, but was then shipped of to Oolong.

As for mixing the mortal foes with Gods, I think Hades says it the best:

Cheeta, Poison and Psycho are not in the Olympians weight-class...and funnily enough not in Diana's in most cases.

In regards to the support cast, I deeply disagree with the notion of Azzarello not bringing anything new to the table; because most of the Olympians were barely seen much less acted or spoke the last 25 or so years. Athena and Ares were the most frequent, but most of the others we left on the sideline. So now we have; Lennox, Zola, Hera, Milan, Sirraca, Eros, Hephaestus as the most immediate cast, while Hades, Ares and Hermes have gotten new personalties. And finally Apollo, Dionysus, Poseidon, Demeter actually have personalities. To my count there's been 25 people with names introduced so far and I am pretty sure we will get more before its all over.

Doesn't need to be saved, it's consistently a better seller now than it's been in nearly a decade if not more. That said I am not blindly following anything, I am just defending this book from having to return to a form that was slowly killing it.

@Outside_85 said:

@Power_Guy: Sry, but it appears you aren't actually reading this book or get why it's being done the way it is now.

The Olympians were redesigned because Azzarello wanted unique visuals to a group of gods that's been depicted the same way in pretty much every media they appear in, and Perez's redesigns was no exception, his redesigns weren't unique, they were stock. And they are the focus still because it is still the same story, so there's no need to add the 'just human' foes into the mix.

Removing the Amazons is a story telling gimmick, made only so Diana wouldn't spend all her time on the island with the family she knows and instead looking for the family she doesn't know.

Actually, I have read issues 1 through 5, 15, and the current issue. I think it's strange that you consider the current version of the gods to have unique visuals considering that Strife looks like Britney Spears when she shaved her head, Milan is a dead wringer for Wesley Willis, and War was modeled after Azzarello himself. How are those designs unique when they clearly rip off real people? As for Diana's "just human" foes, clearly you're not all that familiar with them as the Cheetah is far from human. Queen Clea is an Atlantean. Circe is powerful enough to take on Wonder Woman and Superman(as shown in Jimenez's run). Plus Lex Luthor has shown time and time again that a mere human can be quite a problem for someone with vast abilities so there's no reason why characters like Dr. Poison can't play in that same arena.

Your statement that removing the Amazons is a story telling gimmick is right on the mark and that gimmick has been done several times before in various Wonder Woman runs so it's a little tired to see it done yet again but Azzarello hasn't really brought much of anything new to the table with Wonder Woman. He has, however, put the focus on the Olympians which is why Diana seems more like a supporting character in her own book.

If you and others wants to be blind loyalists to Azzarello and see no wrong with what he's doing, be my guest but the book is down almost 5,000 units in sales from 6 months ago so I hope you have a good campaign strategy to save it.

@Superguy1591 said:

@Power_Guy: Wow, I don't think you get what the term rebooted universe means. It's supposed to make changes and retcon things that are silly...like why Diana, a woman that flies, needs an invisible jet (They need to keep all her silverage cr@p away from her, it doesn't advance the character, it just makes her look silly). To your other "familiar elements"...

She dumped Steve Trevor, plus, when was Steve Trevor a mainstay in the pre-52 Wonder Woman mythos? Donna Troy, like Wally West, has yet to make an appearance in the New 52. Artemis, and all the other Amazons are stone/snakes.

I get that this is a reboot. In fact, I'm enjoying everything in the reboot with the exception of Wonder Woman's solo series and the Teen Titans. Why does she need an ultra-cool Invisible Jet? Let's see......so she can carry people with her, for stealth missions, or perhaps it can fly even faster than she does. I find it hilarious that you consider it silly when you seem to appreciate Azzarello's abomination of Wonder Woman so much given that his one-trick pony of drowning the book with the Olympians is beyond stale at this point. He's not really doing anything fresh with her. He's simply focusing the book more on the Olympians than her. A lot of things he's done have been done before in previous runs of Wonder Woman such as getting rid of Hippolyta, giving Diana a new supporting cast, and trying to pass her off as brutal warrior.

As for Steve Trevor, he was Diana's prime love interest until Crisis On Infinite Earths and probably would have been so afterwards if Perez hadn't made him old enough to be Diana's father. In just about every other media outlet that Diana has appeared in since Crisis, whenever she's had a love interest, it's been Steve so it makes little sense as to why he's not shown at all in her book even though they've broken up. You would think she would at least think or talk about him once in a while. If that chapter in her life is truly over, then why isn't she thinking or talking about Superman with whom she's currently involved with? Because Azzarello would rather write Days of Our Olympian Lives........

@Outside_85: And Superman and Wonder Woman are set to interact in the next books(Wonder Woman and Superman # 20)

@Power_Guy: Sry, but it appears you aren't actually reading this book or get why it's being done the way it is now.

The Olympians were redesigned because Azzarello wanted unique visuals to a group of gods that's been depicted the same way in pretty much every media they appear in, and Perez's redesigns was no exception, his redesigns weren't unique, they were stock. And they are the focus still because it is still the same story, so there's no need to add the 'just human' foes into the mix.

Removing the Amazons is a story telling gimmick, made only so Diana wouldn't spend all her time on the island with the family she knows and instead looking for the family she doesn't know.

@Power_Guy: Wow, I don't think you get what the term rebooted universe means. It's supposed to make changes and retcon things that are silly...like why Diana, a woman that flies, needs an invisible jet (They need to keep all her silverage cr@p away from her, it doesn't advance the character, it just makes her look silly). To your other "familiar elements"...

She dumped Steve Trevor, plus, when was Steve Trevor a mainstay in the pre-52 Wonder Woman mythos? Donna Troy, like Wally West, has yet to make an appearance in the New 52. Artemis, and all the other Amazons are stone/snakes.

Hah, Diana should've taken Orion's head off after he gave her that love tap. Her face was priceless. The strongest woman on the planet filled with pure rage.

@Superguy1591 said:

What's with all the whiners? This is the best book in the 52, enjoy it while it last. Azzerello is mixing humor, with action with drama with suspense and you guys are crying because they decided that Diana made of clay is stupid. If my eyes could roll any faster they'd be outside my head.

I don't get the whiners either. I liked all her comics, but this one is better. I think the issue is their are some WW fans out there who just can't handle the idea of a reboot. I keep saying this is reading more like a Sandman comic then just some WW story featuring WW and the other characters are just on the side. This comic we get to hear the other characters more.

@jphulk26: They already had that battle and Diana won.

@rainbow_kidd said:

I loved it... it might be slow paced for some, but it's the reason I enjoy it, it revels in detail and I feel in no rush to get to the finish line of an arc, just enjoy it's skillful storytelling...

loved the final page too. Can't wait for the next issue.

Also Atkins fill in art hasn't bothered me for a long time, he does a fine job filling in, he's managed to get the right/same tone of Cliff Chiangs, it might not be quite as polished but makes up in other ways , I enjoy it almost the same.

I agree with everything you said. The pacing is slow but it reads really well in trades. I honestly don't always even notice the art changes. They're pretty similar to me.

For me Wonder Woman hasn't been this good since the Perez run.

Just rename this book "Drama of the Gods" and give Wonder woman another title she can handla it!

I am shocked that every month this book gets 4 or 5 star reviews with how much it's dropped in sales over the last 6 months. Azzarello's over-use of the Olympians comes off as a one trick pony especially while he completely ignores the familiar aspects of Wonder Woman's world such as Steve Trevor, Donna Troy, Artemis(the Amazon), the Invisible Jet, her non-deity rogues gallery, and her budding relationship with Superman. This also makes the book feel disconnected from the rest of the New 52 which doesn't help. The art is always inconsistent(no matter who is drawing the book) and the redesigns of the Olympians are a far cry from Perez's masterful renditions. I hope we get a new creative team and direction on this book soon so I can start enjoying Wonder Woman again.

I loved it... it might be slow paced for some, but it's the reason I enjoy it, it revels in detail and I feel in no rush to get to the finish line of an arc, just enjoy it's skillful storytelling...

loved the final page too. Can't wait for the next issue.

Also Atkins fill in art hasn't bothered me for a long time, he does a fine job filling in, he's managed to get the right/same tone of Cliff Chiangs, it might not be quite as polished but makes up in other ways , I enjoy it almost the same.

Can Orion and Wonder Woman get married and have a bazillion babies? That'd be rad, DC.

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I enjoy this issue. But i,m a bit surprised to see war got ambushed by hermes... Or is he really?

A great issue.The pacing is good.I wonder what is waiting for first born's end!!!

The gods are pure hilarity, I love the way Hera interacts with her kids and Orion is a hoot. Lenix and Diana made me laugh so much, too. Diana needs to kick his face in, but not in a malicious way. Just to put him in his place because he clearly doesn't know who he's messing with. XD

Orion: You don't strike me as a woman who thinks before she speaks. XD

@supersmith: Calm down, morality police. He didn't touch her bum in a sexual way, it was a jock pat on the bum for good luck. Jeez, this was a light hearted book that tried to take away from the seriousness of the book. Diana doesn't need you to stand up for her, she is Wonder Woman. If she felt offended, she would've made that known. Calmate.

@johnqestion: Pay attention, buddy. She said she wants to help everyone, even these band on clowns. Diana is a selfless hero, she'll do what it takes to help everyone. Even the woman who turned her family into stone. And new 52, DC wants to take the character in a different direction, that was the point of the reboot. To make changes, not to maintain the status quo. Even so, in the old continuity, Orion and the New Gods were a bunch of tools. They looked down on people and they treated non-New Gods with little respect. What's out of place for Orion to be a meat-head?

@jointron33: Don't get your statement...

What's with all the whiners? This is the best book in the 52, enjoy it while it last. Azzerello is mixing humor, with action with drama with suspense and you guys are crying because they decided that Diana made of clay is stupid. If my eyes could roll any faster they'd be outside my head.

While I'm still invested emotionally in this arc, I'm getting more and more confused by the bits with Cassandra and the First Born. I'm not sure who either one is, really. The longer this arc goes on, the more I wish they'd use the Greek names for the pantheon of gods, rather than call them War, and Harvest, and Strife. But I had great english teachers in elementary school and middle school that covered Greek myths.

Pretty sure the Perez run could not have happened in any way