Red Hood and the Outlaws #6 - Take me Down to Paradise City -- Where the Sea Runs Red & the Girls are Pretty

I absolutely hated Red Hood #1 but as the series progressed it got better and better. #6 should have been the first issue really. Jason and Kory were well written both. We got backstory about them both and a nice theme of what determines a person nicely illustrated with both characters. I liked the inclusion of Dick Grayson so at least they are addressing some of the Pre-New 52 era. And the devil is in the details really. We saw Kory in her bikini again but this time she actually looked beautiful and the moonlight gave her class. Quite the opposite of the first issue imo.

@daredevil21134 said:

WOW.

Yay Jason Todd is one of my favorite characters so happy with this issue, even though that space kitty line at the end was really weird kinda excited to see what happens when Jason Todd and dick finally see each other, kinda like the Jason/star fire ship :)

Great review, agree with everything said

No there wasn't any different. She was from a different culture and she reacts differently, views the world in a different manner.

Funny you talk about GLC because I have read an intensive amount of GL stuff and camped almost everyday in GL forums when there was one in CBR. Guess what, Its the same. Katma Tui kissed John Stewart but professed that on her planet kissing is nothing of a romantic behaviour. Is she a slut too? You know how Kory was defined by Dick Grayson? Everything she did was because of him. She quit JL cos she can't stand to be around him. She broked down and couldn't fall in love with another person because of Dick Grayson. She cried and whined more than once because of dick grayson. That is a stereotypical view of women that they are defined by the men they loved.

Oh just because she is hanging out with Roy and Jason she is defined by them? Pur lease.

Well, I've don't think Scott's stories are the best in whole DCnU. But it certainly is one of the most fun. It is decent but the fun factor in all of his books are way above most of the DCnU books. But in terms of writing, I'll say there are stories like Animal Man, Shade and what not where I felt is the top few books and I love them. But so what? I enjoy his books and thats all that matters. I was extremely disappointed with Firestorm because it was created by 2 of my favourite creators and it didn't deliver. Ofcourse I felt sad, but what am I to do? I don't go bitching about them everyday, I just avoided the book and hopefully when good reviews come in. You on the other hand just refuse to give up, aren't you. You bitch about every single thing to do with titans, you never gave any good stuff credit and thus your credibility just isn't there. I don't find you annoying, I just dont take you seriously. If you hadn't noticed, not alot of people have been responding to your hate posts.

@sethysquare: Read my comment again, its in the first line whats different. And as I mentioned, the GLC is composed of some 8000 different species of aliens drawn from a cross the universe and I have yet to see any of them mistake any of the four human lanterns from one another. How is she defined by Dick Grayson? She was his love interest, how she's the tag-along for Roy and Jason who is just there because...good question what is she doing there? And no I will voice my dislike of the stuff i dislike wherever and whenever the hell I want to, even if I am the only one to do so (this isn't the 'I love RH&O thread you know...oh wait, no you don't).

You know it's funny, earlier today I sat through 90min of Lobdell on Wordballon and I've actually come to realize that my problem isn't as much with Lobdell himself, I don't like his stories because I think starting from scratch was in most cases unnessesary and I am not a fan of the x-menification he is doing, but I've realized my true problem is with the fanboys who brainlessly gush and gush and gush over how superior his books are in comparison to just about everything else (that would be you btw), Lobdell books are middle of the road material, decent, not great (certainly nothing that's on the levels of Lemire, Azzarello or Snyder), but decent, they become horrible if you build onto previous versions (which I have been doing). So if you find me annoying now, have faith in that I will be showing up when it pleases me to slam you right back down to the ground.

@Outside_85 said:

@sethysquare: No she wasn't, comic Starfire didn't get underwear because her people didn't use it which is a cultural difference. Animated Starfire didn't Cyborgs window-wipers, 'They are dancing!'. There's a difference between the two. Second point; cop out argument, Superman and J'onn can tell people apart perfectly fine, as can just about every member of the GLC. Third point; wrong, now she's just defined by the Bat-caln outcast and a former drug addict when she isn't just a cold shell. Last point; because its all been a complete crapover from DC as usual. And your points are equally as moot because of the endless gushing you do with little sense of quality control.

You are contradicting yourself.

Since you said its a cultural difference, and I also said she does things different because shes an alien, how is that effing different? Also, I'm sure you're smarter to know that Kryptonians aren't martians and they're both not tamaranians. Each one of them are a different species, or you're as clueless are I thought you are? How is she defined by the Jason and Roy? Name me any one instance where Kory as a person is defined by Jason or Roy. Just give me one. Gosh for the love of christ, if you're so bent on hating something, why don't you just f*cking stop reading it. Gosh. Spill your hatorade somewhere else.

nightwing fan here: my biggest treat was finally seeing an oldscchool nightwing suit i could be proud of

Best series of the New 52 tied with Swamp Thing and Teen Titans (personal opinion, so no hate mail!)

@spiderbat87 said:

@Hawkeye446 said:

@spiderbat87: I'm sorry, that was very rude of me, so I do apologise.

However, it's not very fair that you are judging us without even giving your own opinion. When I first read your statement I thought that you were referring to the other party being close minded. When I realised you meant me, I was a bit offended considering that if I was given anything worth converting for, I would. That's because I am not stubborn when listening to others and I can see where I am wrong.

Like with what I said to you, sorry again for that.

The first comment wasn't aimed at anybody in particular, it was just a general remark and the second one was just me being sarcastic. I didn't come in to the thread to argue or change anybody's opinion are say that my one is the right one, I just came to state it and that is all.

I know the remark wasn't to just me, but I was included. I don't really think it is fair labelling people like that without even conversing with them.

@spiderbat87: I'm sorry, that was very rude of me, so I do apologise.

However, it's not very fair that you are judging us without even giving your own opinion. When I first read your statement I thought that you were referring to the other party being close minded. When I realised you meant me, I was a bit offended considering that if I was given anything worth converting for, I would. That's because I am not stubborn when listening to others and I can see where I am wrong.

Like with what I said to you, sorry again for that.

@spiderbat87: I'm sorry, that was very rude of me, so I do apologise.

However, it's not very fair that you are judging us without even giving your own opinion. When I first read your statement I thought that you were referring to the other party being close minded. When I realised you meant me, I was a bit offended considering that if I was given anything worth converting for, I would. That's because I am not stubborn when listening to others and I can see where I am wrong.

Like with what I said to you, sorry again for that.

@fodigg: Yeah. Catwoman was a deal-breaker for me unfortunately, I just couldn't handle it. But yeah, I understand what you're saying but I think that there was some context behind it because she was a sex bot during the time that was written. If that were to happen again, then it'd probably piss me off too.

@ReVamp said:

@fodigg: I completely agree. I was going to add to my post that I didn't understand why Lobdell would do this or why he would think this is a good idea in any sort of manner. The "pin-up" argument really isn't valid if you agree that she was intended to be perceived as a sex-bot in the first few issues though -- if fit the characterization (or lack thereof) that he was giving the character.

See, but Voodoo was sexy without doing that. It had plenty of art that was risque, but always in a context to support it. by comparison, Starfire and Catwoman both kinda just threw it in. But I don't treat that as a deal-breaker, that's just annoying to me.

@fodigg: I completely agree. I was going to add to my post that I didn't understand why Lobdell would do this or why he would think this is a good idea in any sort of manner. The "pin-up" argument really isn't valid if you agree that she was intended to be perceived as a sex-bot in the first few issues though -- if fit the characterization (or lack thereof) that he was giving the character.

@daredevil21134: Saving that.

@ReVamp said:

@fodigg: Well, the fact is that she was written as having no character and personality during the first four issues on purpose, she ends up regaining her personality back during issue 5 or 6.

Right, and I'm saying that works in a trade or when reading those issues together, but is a poor way to handle the character in episodic format with a month between issues. I think that was a misstep. What I'm saying, basically, is that I agree with those who are saying that Lobdell did NOT change the direction of the book to please critics, because he's been saying since issue one that Starfire's character was what we got in issue six (reportedly, I have not read it). The disconnect was that we weren't seeing it at all in the book, because we had to wait six months to get it. I gave the book three.

Even if the arc was meant to be:

• Starfire is an unlikable sex-bot
• Starfire starts snarking back at the boys and becomes a bit more a part of the group
• Oh look, it's now revealed that Starfire isn't like that at all and is actually complicated, interesting, and retains old relationships

—even if that was her arc, that's (IMO) a silly way to treat the character for a relaunch, because the danger in making a character unlikable is that people may not like them. Even if it serves a purpose in the larger arc, I didn't see enough by the end of issue three to keep me around. So yeah, great that it's better now, but boy that was mishandled.

Oh, and even if you fix the plot and characterization problems, there was still the annoying "pose for no reason other than the reader" thing. Context is important for art as well as story, don't just draw a pinup in the middle of an unrelated scene.

But hey, it sounds like things are going in the right direction so maybe I'd invest in a trade.

@SC said:

@spiderbat87 said:

Wow, comic fans a pretty closed minded bunch

Indeed, you think they would cherish the opportunity to engage in an open dialogue with other fans, discussing the good and bad and everything inbetween providing an insightful and purposeful exchange of opinions and ideas yet some almost seem hung up on the idea that if they like something they are right? (Not sure what about yet, but I am learning) and that if anyone disagrees with them, they are wrong, or at best, its just another "opinion" and eh who cares about about thinking? Just say something that sounds like common sense? Like the sun and the moon look about the same size, they must be. Actually moon looks a lil bigger. Must be bigger. Just like male and female sexuality and equality yey.


@spiderbat87 said:

OH NO a girl in a bikini talking about sex, quick inform the village elders and have the wench stoned!!

Oh no, a middle aged guy writes a TnA cheesecake comic primarily to pander to younger guys the traditional market he usually writes to, this is met with criticism, and a bunch of comic fans get ultra defensive and lash out at criticism blindly someone call - oh wait, that's not news? That's the reputation comic fans just have? They can take away the continuity but any morsel of criticism against gender depiction (and not necessarily sex, direct, implied, or otherwise, Catwoman had sex, X-Force Sex and Violence funnily enough, Pride of Baghdad, Exiles, Fantastic Four, Ultimates, Alias, Iron Man, Daredevil, and none of these books got heat) but someone criticize gender depiction and "comic fans" suddenly see red or simply don't understand anything they hear other than "I liek, this too, I love this too, yey yey agreez with me, yey yey I get PMz agreez with me, lulz feministz" See I love funny comments like yours. Sarcasm is boss. It can be biting, and clever and cut straight to the heart of the matter. Then again it can miss the opportunity to actually say something and reflect a willingness to instigate change for the better. I think I might go send Cathybot332211696978991 an email now than continue passively aggressively arguing 37 people just because they dared to have criticism. :)

:)

But seriously SC, you are extremely close-minded for wanting one of your favourite characters to be done justice, and not have to wait 6 months.

Oh, and defending other users rights to an opinion? What are you on about? I think you should take that GUILTY ass Horse Dog back to where it came from before ONE opinion on a public forum means more than ANOTHER.

If Lobdell came here on Comic Vine and told us what he thought it would HAVE to be right; because he wrote it? <==== logic

@sethysquare: No she wasn't, comic Starfire didn't get underwear because her people didn't use it which is a cultural difference. Animated Starfire didn't Cyborgs window-wipers, 'They are dancing!'. There's a difference between the two. Second point; cop out argument, Superman and J'onn can tell people apart perfectly fine, as can just about every member of the GLC. Third point; wrong, now she's just defined by the Bat-caln outcast and a former drug addict when she isn't just a cold shell. Last point; because its all been a complete crapover from DC as usual. And your points are equally as moot because of the endless gushing you do with little sense of quality control.

I've dug this title since the first issue. But I was completely hooked by #3.

@Outside_85: Yes, she was. She doesn't get why theres a need to wear underwear in the previous run. Secondly, shes an alien and she views human differently. Thirdly, its a reboot, characters changed, this time its for the better that she isn't all whiney and love sick puppy that is defined by the men in her life. Lastly, your points are all moot here because you've said nothing but negatively about anything titans since issue 1, because you're too hung on that DC decided to move on.

@sethysquare: First up, Starfire was never as naive as her animated counterpart (where every character trait was pushed to 11), Johns' Wonder Woman is closer to that than anyone else atm, so I dont see where you get that impression. She remembers humans from smell and sight...but cant tell Roy and Jason (a pair she follows around for some as of yet unexplained reason) apart and apparently cant remember Richard except on a subconscious level.

@Outside_85: She wasn't acting like an airhead at all. She remembers human from their smell and sight. There was no where in all 6 issues did she act like an airhead. In fact she has been portrayed more like one in the teen titans animated series and in the old teen titans stuff.

*sigh* My first comment is on page 2, I've been arguing since page 3 and I've done it for 2 technically now 3 days straight. I've made my point time and time and time again I've been engaged in the same circular argument with 3 different people, and none of you has seamed to hear a word I said, I got two people to agree with me and as they both read the book and actually know what the h*** there talking about that's enough validation for my point that I honestly don't give a **** about what you people think of me, my argument or this book, it's 1 in the morning and I'm bloody tired of repeating myself. Do whatever you want, good night and good luck.

@BlackArmor:

I have read all of your comments. You state that 2 people agreed with you? We all agree with each other, to a degree. So what does that have to do with anything? Honestly?

These are forums. We have been discussing. YOU are the one who chooses to keep replying. No-one makes you.

And we haven't engaged in a circle argument, you and I. We have been talking. I have said my points as clearly as you have said yours.

Your opinion was that certain opinions don't matter as much because not all of the issues have been read. I have spent hours today typing responses to negotiate these terms and explain, and every time getting a metaphor knocked back in my face.

I would have happily changed my view if you gave me something to work with, as opposed to critical comments and bewildering statements.

If this whole affair has worn you down so much, I apologise sincerely because I hate being tired. But this has never been personal. We have all acted kindly and you are the one who has ostracised certain individuals and has said that they have less a right to speak, and less a right to be agreed with.

@SC: @Hawkeye446: @ScarlettAssassin:

*sigh* My first comment is on page 2, I've been arguing since page 3 and I've done it for 2 technically now 3 days straight. I've made my point time and time and time again I've been engaged in the same circular argument with 3 different people, and none of you has seamed to hear a word I said, I got two people to agree with me and as they both read the book and actually know what the h*** there talking about that's enough validation for my point that I honestly don't give a **** about what you people think of me, my argument or this book, it's 1 in the morning and I'm bloody tired of repeating myself. Do whatever you want, good night and good luck.

@SC said:

@spiderbat87 said:

Wow, comic fans a pretty closed minded bunch

Indeed, you think they would cherish the opportunity to engage in an open dialogue with other fans, discussing the good and bad and everything inbetween providing an insightful and purposeful exchange of opinions and ideas yet some almost seem hung up on the idea that if they like something they are right? (Not sure what about yet, but I am learning) and that if anyone disagrees with them, they are wrong, or at best, its just another "opinion" and eh who cares about about thinking? Just say something that sounds like common sense? Like the sun and the moon look about the same size, they must be. Actually moon looks a lil bigger. Must be bigger. Just like male and female sexuality and equality yey.


@spiderbat87 said:

OH NO a girl in a bikini talking about sex, quick inform the village elders and have the wench stoned!!

Oh no, a middle aged guy writes a TnA cheesecake comic primarily to pander to younger guys the traditional market he usually writes to, this is met with criticism, and a bunch of comic fans get ultra defensive and lash out at criticism blindly someone call - oh wait, that's not news? That's the reputation comic fans just have? They can take away the continuity but any morsel of criticism against gender depiction (and not necessarily sex, direct, implied, or otherwise, Catwoman had sex, X-Force Sex and Violence funnily enough, Pride of Baghdad, Exiles, Fantastic Four, Ultimates, Alias, Iron Man, Daredevil, and none of these books got heat) but someone criticize gender depiction and "comic fans" suddenly see red or simply don't understand anything they hear other than "I liek, this too, I love this too, yey yey agreez with me, yey yey I get PMz agreez with me, lulz feministz" See I love funny comments like yours. Sarcasm is boss. It can be biting, and clever and cut straight to the heart of the matter. Then again it can miss the opportunity to actually say something and reflect a willingness to instigate change for the better. I think I might go send Cathybot332211696978991 an email now than continue passively aggressively arguing 37 people just because they dared to have criticism. :)

:)

But seriously SC, you are extremely close-minded for wanting one of your favourite characters to be done justice, and not have to wait 6 months.

Oh, and defending other users rights to an opinion? What are you on about? I think you should take that GUILTY ass Horse Dog back to where it came from before ONE opinion on a public forum means more than ANOTHER.

If Lobdell came here on Comic Vine and told us what he thought it would HAVE to be right; because he wrote it? <==== logic

@BlackArmor said:

@spiderbat87 said:

OH NO a girl in a bikini talking about sex, quick inform the village elders and have the wench stoned!!

lol, thanks for that after 2 days straight of argument I needed a laugh. I think I might rather watch Ghost Rider 2 again then continue in a circular argument against 3 people.@Hawkeye446 said:

@BlackArmor said:

@Hawkeye446 said:

@BlackArmor: That is fair enough. But you didn't actually answer my question?

Whilst I have been on this site I have seen many people complaining about certain books, say Matt Fraction's Uncanny X-Men run. Sure we can write about it on forums to each other, but the only way to actually show that we aren't happy is to stop buying the book.

For every book that is sold, that is more exposure and money that the respected companies get. If they get this money, they think the book is good, they think it is successful. Now whether or not the top Dog's at Marvel and DC do care about the Comics, they need to make money, it is a business after all.

So the points that you are addressing, that is all fair enough. But you saying that someone who finds utter distaste in a book should continue to support it, simply so they can then complain about it more is stupid and redundant. But hey, they will know the content, so their point of view can be listened to now, yes?

The way I see it, that is just a reason to dumb down your opponents point of view to others, and make it sound less accurate even though it is an opinion in the first place.

I completely agree, I think she should stop buying the book and even Lobdell himself said he didn't want the money of anyone who wasn't willing for a story to shape up. I am simply requesting that she stop complaining if she doesn't know what's going on. Even if she read a friends copy or downloaded it illegally it would be fine for her to complain because she knows where things are, since she does nothing of the sort I request not that she start buying the series but simply not participate in conversations involving knowledge she doesn't have

Again, I do understand your point 100%. However, most of what @ScarlettAssassin was saying was specified to the first issue regardless.

I've never studied space travel I don't want anyone designing a space ship based on my specifications.

Now, I read this and it made me think for a bit. And I came to a conclusion.

Sure, you may not have ever studied space travel, but you may have worked as an engineer for 30 years. Now what that means is though the person in question does not know the entire content of what she is addressing, she has many other things to fall upon that could influence how she sees this situation.

I could say the same for anything. You may have never read "to Kill a Mockingbird", but based upon what you know of the book, you could answer questions better than someone who has read it 10 times. Why? Because opinions, understanding, responses and reasoning all depend on the person.

Two different people could have been born on the same day, gone to the same schools, studied the same things, work in the same professions, and could still have completely different views on a subject.

If SA had of read every single issue to date, and her opinion was precisely the same, are you saying you would value that opinion more? You said that if you were not adapt at a subject and put your point of view in, you would be expected to be laughed out of the thread? That doesn't reflect on you, it reflects on the people around you. You are referring to cruel people that are close-minded and aren't prepared to listen and here you out.

What irks me most though, is the fact that this user that you are conversing with has even thanked you for the discussion. They have explored different opinions, have been courteous, and kind. And yet you still say that their opinion is less valid than a person who may have read every issue, understood none of it and claims that they know everything?

I feel like the engineer thing should be specified and not assumed, but going by my previous metaphors it would be more like taking one engineering course in Community College and then majoring in history and then being asked to design a space ship. It's possible yes that someone who has never read something can answer questions better than someone well versed in a book, extremely unlikely but possible. And at what point was I thanked for the argument, I consider to state that the expressed opinions are invalid because....let me use a metaphor, Have you ever seen Wacky Racers? it's this old cartoon where famous characters from various shows race each other in a derby, there's this villain, I forget his name, who always paints a road sign to send his opponents down the wrong track and usually fall off a cliff or something, well in issue 1 Lobdell was the guy who changed the sign and anyone who rage quit after issue 1 is still traveling based on that sign and are completely lost in the middle of a desert, simply put Lobdell pulled a swithceroo on us and if you stopped after 1 you don't know it. It's like if he gave you an algebra problem and told you that in all scenarios X=5, your operating on misinformation and you would get all problems wrong

I don't know why you moved to critique my metaphor. Shall I do the same?

Using Maths and comparing it to a situation like this is bad example. Maths has certain rules to it that cannot be avoided. If you told someone that X=5, and that was incorrect, all of their equations and answeres henceforth would be incorrect. However, that is not what @ScarlettAssassin was doing. At All. She was making points regarding the way the first issue set up for the rest of the series. It was you that said that her arguments were invalid as she had not read the later issues. Was she saying the later issues were the same? No. She even welcomed the change and was happy that is was successful.

You said earlier that you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover... That is the point of a cover. With so many books in the world, covers need to be tantalsing and have to bring people in. Only then will they read the blurb and find out what is about, and only then will they read the book. #1 was the cover, like you said. Fair enough. So for this user, she felt that the cover was "bad". You addressed that a cover issue can't have everything in it.. Of course it can't, but it need's to have enough.

Again, you say it is extremely unlikely that someone who hasn't read a book can answer better than someone who can? Ok, so I give a copy to the five year old, who is on the cusp of reading? Oh, but hey that is different? Of course they won't understand? So I give it to an old racist man who reads the words but refuses to believe what is said? Again, that is different? So I give it to an everyday normal person. They read the book, and don't actually take in the message behind it. They see an old town with prejudice and write that everyone is the olden days was prejudice. I give it to another person and the research the book. They instinctively understand the premise. It is more than possible because people are different.

Yes I know the show Wacky Races. So, Lobdell was leading them off the cliff so the readers "lose the race" and damage their racing cars, meaning they will have to take up long conversations with the insurance dealers, not to mention the hospital bills. In essence, you are saying Lobdell made the reader change direction into a trap that ended up making them distraught and in pain? I couldn't agree more. And may I say that is really how I see that metaphor. Because I understand the simplistic nature of making them change direction, but a better example would be if a new driver who only knew the one way of driving was told he had to go the other way because of street work. He may not be all to happy about it, but it is harmless.

OH, you weren't thanked?

@ScarlettAssassin:

LOL - I understand and there is nothing to pardon. Thank you for taking the time to share your insights with me.

@ScarlettAssassin:

You clearly enjoy it, as do others and like I said, I do wish this series continued success, regardless of its shaky beginning. I am only here to address some comments made, like you. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.

Finally, you mentioned having circle arguments with three different people. I know for a fact that I have re-iterated only one point, and have listened to what you have said fairly. However, all you have told me, repeatedly, is that this user's opinions don't match up to yours simply because they haven't read as many issues.

Wow, comic fans a pretty closed minded bunch

OH NO a girl in a bikini talking about sex, quick inform the village elders and have the wench stoned!!

@spiderbat87 said:

OH NO a girl in a bikini talking about sex, quick inform the village elders and have the wench stoned!!

lol, thanks for that after 2 days straight of argument I needed a laugh. I think I might rather watch Ghost Rider 2 again then continue in a circular argument against 3 people.@Hawkeye446 said:

@BlackArmor said:

@Hawkeye446 said:

@BlackArmor: That is fair enough. But you didn't actually answer my question?

Whilst I have been on this site I have seen many people complaining about certain books, say Matt Fraction's Uncanny X-Men run. Sure we can write about it on forums to each other, but the only way to actually show that we aren't happy is to stop buying the book.

For every book that is sold, that is more exposure and money that the respected companies get. If they get this money, they think the book is good, they think it is successful. Now whether or not the top Dog's at Marvel and DC do care about the Comics, they need to make money, it is a business after all.

So the points that you are addressing, that is all fair enough. But you saying that someone who finds utter distaste in a book should continue to support it, simply so they can then complain about it more is stupid and redundant. But hey, they will know the content, so their point of view can be listened to now, yes?

The way I see it, that is just a reason to dumb down your opponents point of view to others, and make it sound less accurate even though it is an opinion in the first place.

I completely agree, I think she should stop buying the book and even Lobdell himself said he didn't want the money of anyone who wasn't willing for a story to shape up. I am simply requesting that she stop complaining if she doesn't know what's going on. Even if she read a friends copy or downloaded it illegally it would be fine for her to complain because she knows where things are, since she does nothing of the sort I request not that she start buying the series but simply not participate in conversations involving knowledge she doesn't have

Again, I do understand your point 100%. However, most of what @ScarlettAssassin was saying was specified to the first issue regardless.

I've never studied space travel I don't want anyone designing a space ship based on my specifications.

Now, I read this and it made me think for a bit. And I came to a conclusion.

Sure, you may not have ever studied space travel, but you may have worked as an engineer for 30 years. Now what that means is though the person in question does not know the entire content of what she is addressing, she has many other things to fall upon that could influence how she sees this situation.

I could say the same for anything. You may have never read "to Kill a Mockingbird", but based upon what you know of the book, you could answer questions better than someone who has read it 10 times. Why? Because opinions, understanding, responses and reasoning all depend on the person.

Two different people could have been born on the same day, gone to the same schools, studied the same things, work in the same professions, and could still have completely different views on a subject.

If SA had of read every single issue to date, and her opinion was precisely the same, are you saying you would value that opinion more? You said that if you were not adapt at a subject and put your point of view in, you would be expected to be laughed out of the thread? That doesn't reflect on you, it reflects on the people around you. You are referring to cruel people that are close-minded and aren't prepared to listen and here you out.

What irks me most though, is the fact that this user that you are conversing with has even thanked you for the discussion. They have explored different opinions, have been courteous, and kind. And yet you still say that their opinion is less valid than a person who may have read every issue, understood none of it and claims that they know everything?

I feel like the engineer thing should be specified and not assumed, but going by my previous metaphors it would be more like taking one engineering course in Community College and then majoring in history and then being asked to design a space ship. It's possible yes that someone who has never read something can answer questions better than someone well versed in a book, extremely unlikely but possible. And at what point was I thanked for the argument, I consider to state that the expressed opinions are invalid because....let me use a metaphor, Have you ever seen Wacky Racers? it's this old cartoon where famous characters from various shows race each other in a derby, there's this villain, I forget his name, who always paints a road sign to send his opponents down the wrong track and usually fall off a cliff or something, well in issue 1 Lobdell was the guy who changed the sign and anyone who rage quit after issue 1 is still traveling based on that sign and are completely lost in the middle of a desert, simply put Lobdell pulled a swithceroo on us and if you stopped after 1 you don't know it. It's like if he gave you an algebra problem and told you that in all scenarios X=5, your operating on misinformation and you would get all problems wrong

@SC: perfectly fine with someone criticizing Ice cream, I just expect them to no longer talk about it at every opportunity, 

and if the reason's they don't like Ice cream are ill founded to not be surprised when someone sets them straight. 

 I don't eat chips but I'm not about to go to a forum for chip lovers and detail my hatred for chips. 

 The fan I was originally addressing was highlighting Starfire to an extent the writer was not. 

I am arguing that unless if the horse truly does do bad then it is an entirely different situation than the horse tricking the police officer into thinking he has done wrong and thus not a valid or worthwhile analogy for like of precision.

I believe ones arguments shouldn't be taken seriously if they have no knowledge of the context, if I had never taken a math class and argued that 2+3=100 I would expect you to laugh me out of the conversation, 

opinions are of course acceptable but unfounded opinions should be completely ignored, 

While my criticisms may or may not be correct, and as I have received a pm from daredevil21134 expressing support for my endeavors I

I have at least read and interpreted every word of every argument leveled against mine, I am therefore qualified having vgouresly studied the material of the conversation, opposed to if I had read the first paragraph disagreeing with me and have been basing my argument on nothing other than that.

We have reached a point of argument where we are simply disagreeing about whether or not someone who has not read the material is eligible to be taken seriously in a conversation concerning said material, I believe that a person such as this should at best be set straight and then ignored, and at worse laughed out of the conversation and see nothing similar to terrorism in this belief

@spiderbat87 said:

OH NO a girl in a bikini talking about sex, quick inform the village elders and have the wench stoned!!

I am interested to know who this is meant for? Because there is more to this than a near naked Starfire, points which have been discussed above in numerous comments.

@BlackArmor said:

@Hawkeye446 said:

@BlackArmor: That is fair enough. But you didn't actually answer my question?

Whilst I have been on this site I have seen many people complaining about certain books, say Matt Fraction's Uncanny X-Men run. Sure we can write about it on forums to each other, but the only way to actually show that we aren't happy is to stop buying the book.

For every book that is sold, that is more exposure and money that the respected companies get. If they get this money, they think the book is good, they think it is successful. Now whether or not the top Dog's at Marvel and DC do care about the Comics, they need to make money, it is a business after all.

So the points that you are addressing, that is all fair enough. But you saying that someone who finds utter distaste in a book should continue to support it, simply so they can then complain about it more is stupid and redundant. But hey, they will know the content, so their point of view can be listened to now, yes?

The way I see it, that is just a reason to dumb down your opponents point of view to others, and make it sound less accurate even though it is an opinion in the first place.

I completely agree, I think she should stop buying the book and even Lobdell himself said he didn't want the money of anyone who wasn't willing for a story to shape up. I am simply requesting that she stop complaining if she doesn't know what's going on. Even if she read a friends copy or downloaded it illegally it would be fine for her to complain because she knows where things are, since she does nothing of the sort I request not that she start buying the series but simply not participate in conversations involving knowledge she doesn't have

Again, I do understand your point 100%. However, most of what @ScarlettAssassin was saying was specified to the first issue regardless.

I've never studied space travel I don't want anyone designing a space ship based on my specifications.

Now, I read this and it made me think for a bit. And I came to a conclusion.

Sure, you may not have ever studied space travel, but you may have worked as an engineer for 30 years. Now what that means is though the person in question does not know the entire content of what she is addressing, she has many other things to fall upon that could influence how she sees this situation.

I could say the same for anything. You may have never read "to Kill a Mockingbird", but based upon what you know of the book, you could answer questions better than someone who has read it 10 times. Why? Because opinions, understanding, responses and reasoning all depend on the person.

Two different people could have been born on the same day, gone to the same schools, studied the same things, work in the same professions, and could still have completely different views on a subject.

If SA had of read every single issue to date, and her opinion was precisely the same, are you saying you would value that opinion more? You said that if you were not adapt at a subject and put your point of view in, you would be expected to be laughed out of the thread? That doesn't reflect on you, it reflects on the people around you. You are referring to cruel people that are close-minded and aren't prepared to listen and here you out.

What irks me most though, is the fact that this user that you are conversing with has even thanked you for the discussion. They have explored different opinions, have been courteous, and kind. And yet you still say that their opinion is less valid than a person who may have read every issue, understood none of it and claims that they know everything?

@ScarlettAssassin said:

@BlackArmor

@BlackArmor said:

@SC: perfectly fine with someone criticizing Ice cream, I just expect them to no longer talk about it at every opportunity, and if the reason's they don't like Ice cream are ill founded to not be surprised when someone sets them straight. I don't eat chips but I'm not about to go to a forum for chip lovers and detail my hatred for chips. The fan I was originally addressing was highlighting Starfire to an extent the writer was not. I am arguing that unless if the horse truly does do bad then it is an entirely different situation than the horse tricking the police officer into thinking he has done wrong and thus not a valid or worthwhile analogy for like of precision. I believe ones arguments shouldn't be taken seriously if they have no knowledge of the context, if I had never taken a math class and argued that 2+3=100 I would expect you to laugh me out of the conversation, opinions are of course acceptable but unfounded opinions should be completely ignored, I've never studied space travel I don't want anyone designing a space ship based on my specifications. While my criticisms may or may not be correct, and as I have received a pm from daredevil21134 expressing support for my endeavors I am led to believe they may be, I have at least read and interpreted every word of every argument leveled against mine, I am therefore qualified having vgouresly studied the material of the conversation, opposed to if I had read the first paragraph disagreeing with me and have been basing my argument on nothing other than that.

We have reached a point of argument where we are simply disagreeing about whether or not someone who has not read the material is eligible to be taken seriously in a conversation concerning said material, I believe that a person such as this should at best be set straight and then ignored, and at worse laughed out of the conversation and see nothing similar to terrorism in this belief

Clearly you failed to comprehend any of my posts and are pursuing an agenda.

I approached our conversation with genuine intent to exchange points of views and perspectives whereas you have demonstrated with this post you clearly did not. You have decided to no longer reply to me and instead, make assumptions and accusations about me to other posters which calls into question your self acclaimed qualification of vigorous study of our exchange.

Duly noted. Our communication with each other is terminated.

Incorrect, upon your original post I was assuming that you had read the entire series if you go back to when you revealed you hadn't and afterwards you will see that I still took time to debate with you and pointed out several points where your opinions had become out dated due to developments in the story that you had not heard about, upon further examination of my post to SC you will see my desire to set someone unfamiliar to the material straight before dismissing them, something I have been working on for 2 days straight with you, at no point have I dismissed you due to the desire to make sure you knew why people who were following the book disagreed with you. If you display no interest in learning what actually happened in story and wish to continue to judge the series at every available opportunity without being aware of what is going on, than I will be more than happy to dismiss you if you so desire, if not I will continue to converse with you pointing out developments in the story that alter the very nature of the book

OH NO a girl in a bikini talking about sex, quick inform the village elders and have the wench stoned!!

@BlackArmor said:

@Hawkeye446 said:

@BlackArmor: That is fair enough. But you didn't actually answer my question?

Whilst I have been on this site I have seen many people complaining about certain books, say Matt Fraction's Uncanny X-Men run. Sure we can write about it on forums to each other, but the only way to actually show that we aren't happy is to stop buying the book.

For every book that is sold, that is more exposure and money that the respected companies get. If they get this money, they think the book is good, they think it is successful. Now whether or not the top Dog's at Marvel and DC do care about the Comics, they need to make money, it is a business after all.

So the points that you are addressing, that is all fair enough. But you saying that someone who finds utter distaste in a book should continue to support it, simply so they can then complain about it more is stupid and redundant. But hey, they will know the content, so their point of view can be listened to now, yes?

The way I see it, that is just a reason to dumb down your opponents point of view to others, and make it sound less accurate even though it is an opinion in the first place.

I completely agree, I think she should stop buying the book and even Lobdell himself said he didn't want the money of anyone who wasn't willing for a story to shape up. I am simply requesting that she stop complaining if she doesn't know what's going on. Even if she read a friends copy or downloaded it illegally it would be fine for her to complain because she knows where things are, since she does nothing of the sort I request not that she start buying the series but simply not participate in conversations involving knowledge she doesn't have

Please see above.

@BlackArmor

@BlackArmor said:

@SC: perfectly fine with someone criticizing Ice cream, I just expect them to no longer talk about it at every opportunity, and if the reason's they don't like Ice cream are ill founded to not be surprised when someone sets them straight. I don't eat chips but I'm not about to go to a forum for chip lovers and detail my hatred for chips. The fan I was originally addressing was highlighting Starfire to an extent the writer was not. I am arguing that unless if the horse truly does do bad then it is an entirely different situation than the horse tricking the police officer into thinking he has done wrong and thus not a valid or worthwhile analogy for like of precision. I believe ones arguments shouldn't be taken seriously if they have no knowledge of the context, if I had never taken a math class and argued that 2+3=100 I would expect you to laugh me out of the conversation, opinions are of course acceptable but unfounded opinions should be completely ignored, I've never studied space travel I don't want anyone designing a space ship based on my specifications. While my criticisms may or may not be correct, and as I have received a pm from daredevil21134 expressing support for my endeavors I am led to believe they may be, I have at least read and interpreted every word of every argument leveled against mine, I am therefore qualified having vgouresly studied the material of the conversation, opposed to if I had read the first paragraph disagreeing with me and have been basing my argument on nothing other than that.

We have reached a point of argument where we are simply disagreeing about whether or not someone who has not read the material is eligible to be taken seriously in a conversation concerning said material, I believe that a person such as this should at best be set straight and then ignored, and at worse laughed out of the conversation and see nothing similar to terrorism in this belief

Clearly you failed to comprehend any of my posts and are pursuing an agenda.

I approached our conversation with genuine intent to exchange points of views and perspectives whereas you have demonstrated with this post you clearly did not. You have decided to no longer reply to me and instead, make assumptions and accusations about me to other posters which calls into question your self acclaimed qualification of vigorous study of our exchange.

Duly noted. Our communication with each other is terminated.

@Hawkeye446 said:

@BlackArmor: That is fair enough. But you didn't actually answer my question?

Whilst I have been on this site I have seen many people complaining about certain books, say Matt Fraction's Uncanny X-Men run. Sure we can write about it on forums to each other, but the only way to actually show that we aren't happy is to stop buying the book.

For every book that is sold, that is more exposure and money that the respected companies get. If they get this money, they think the book is good, they think it is successful. Now whether or not the top Dog's at Marvel and DC do care about the Comics, they need to make money, it is a business after all.

So the points that you are addressing, that is all fair enough. But you saying that someone who finds utter distaste in a book should continue to support it, simply so they can then complain about it more is stupid and redundant. But hey, they will know the content, so their point of view can be listened to now, yes?

The way I see it, that is just a reason to dumb down your opponents point of view to others, and make it sound less accurate even though it is an opinion in the first place.

I completely agree, I think she should stop buying the book and even Lobdell himself said he didn't want the money of anyone who wasn't willing for a story to shape up. I am simply requesting that she stop complaining if she doesn't know what's going on. Even if she read a friends copy or downloaded it illegally it would be fine for her to complain because she knows where things are, since she does nothing of the sort I request not that she start buying the series but simply not participate in conversations involving knowledge she doesn't have

Wow, comic fans a pretty closed minded bunch

@SC: perfectly fine with someone criticizing Ice cream, I just expect them to no longer talk about it at every opportunity, and if the reason's they don't like Ice cream are ill founded to not be surprised when someone sets them straight. I don't eat chips but I'm not about to go to a forum for chip lovers and detail my hatred for chips. The fan I was originally addressing was highlighting Starfire to an extent the writer was not. I am arguing that unless the horse truly does do bad then it is an entirely different situation than the horse tricking the police officer into thinking he has done wrong and thus not a valid or worthwhile analogy for lack of precision. I believe ones arguments shouldn't be taken seriously if they have no knowledge of the context, if I had never taken a math class and argued that 2+3=100 I would expect you to laugh me out of the conversation, opinions are of course acceptable but unfounded opinions should be completely ignored, I've never studied space travel I don't want anyone designing a space ship based on my specifications. While my criticisms may or may not be correct, and as I have received a pm from daredevil21134 expressing support for my endeavors I am led to believe they may be, I have at least read and interpreted every word of every argument leveled against mine, I am therefore qualified having vgouresly studied the material of the conversation, opposed to if I had read the first paragraph disagreeing with me and have been basing my argument on nothing other than that.

We have reached a point of argument where we are simply disagreeing about whether or not someone who has not read the material is eligible to be taken seriously in a conversation concerning said material, I believe that a person such as this should at best be set straight and then ignored, and at worse laughed out of the conversation and see nothing similar to terrorism in this belief

@ScarlettAssassin said:

Lobdell capturing organic thoughts through a dialogue between two characters that objectified another as being nothing less than impressive is your take. I didn't and still don't feel that way and feel he could have achieved organic dialogue through other, less offensive means. That dialogue unfortunately lent to the whole feel of that first issue in regards to Starfire. You consider that water shot of Starfire not fan service? Again - that is your opinion and not mine. To me, it was, and frankly pulling up scans to prove my point would be counter-productive to our discussion. You feel the male characters were just as objectified as Starfire? Okay - fair enough although I still don't agree with you for reasons I have already stated in my earlier post. My criticism stands on how Starfire was presented in issue #1 - and I fault the writer for it.

I hear that men were objectified just as much... So I wonder if we saw either of the leading males looking like this:

We wouldn't give it a second thought?

@BlackArmor: That is fair enough. But you didn't actually answer my question?

Whilst I have been on this site I have seen many people complaining about certain books, say Matt Fraction's Uncanny X-Men run. Sure we can write about it on forums to each other, but the only way to actually show that we aren't happy is to stop buying the book.

For every book that is sold, that is more exposure and money that the respected companies get. If they get this money, they think the book is good, they think it is successful. Now whether or not the top Dog's at Marvel and DC do care about the Comics, they need to make money, it is a business after all.

So the points that you are addressing, that is all fair enough. But you saying that someone who finds utter distaste in a book should continue to support it, simply so they can then complain about it more is stupid and redundant. But hey, they will know the content, so their point of view can be listened to now, yes?

The way I see it, that is just a reason to dumb down your opponents point of view to others, and make it sound less accurate even though it is an opinion in the first place.

@SC: If you read my latest (or at this juncture second to latest) comment you will see that I make the argument that objectification is not right but that since it happens in real life all media will attempt to reflect it as is the nature of media,

furthermore I also point out Jason and Roy's scant clothing to point out that it is the fans and opponents who are pointing out Starfire and not Lobdell himself. 

Additionally your analogy about your fictional pet horse is pointless unless it only looked like he was eating people but really it was clever misleading and not the true case at all, either way perhaps the officer should have given the horse a fair trial before execution. 

It would be fair for you to tell me to read every book if I went around criticizing everyone that I didn't read, then I would be shooting my mouth off about something that I don't know the first thing about, it would be like if I was operating on somebody without having gone to medical school because 

Criticism is good when constructive but unfounded criticism is a bad thing it adds nothing but rubbish and pointless obsolete objections to an otherwise constructive conversation, I can't tell you what music to listen to if I don't know what you like and so my hundreds of emails suggesting songs would be junk mail gumming up your inbox if it is without knowledge or founding

@Hawkeye446: Sometimes you have to do or read what you don't like in order to contribute to a conversation, If you can't be bothered to read something you don't really have any business criticizing it, because you literally don't know what's going on. It's like saying a 4 minute song sucks after the first 3 seconds, your opinion may still be valid but it shouldn't be taken seriously by others

Forgive me for editing our previous posts - it was getting pretty large and for the sake of clarity, I have broken it down as follows:

@BlackArmor:

No, you're not following my logic at all, I'm not saying it's right but I'm saying it's real and relevant and organic and comics as a type of media does what all types of media always try to do they reflect the real, Take one of my favorite characters Vic Sage smoked himself to death, this doesn't make smoking right but as always comics reflect real life in some capacity so having Jason say, no think something that any real guy would think is just the nature of comics. Lack of organic dialogue has destroyed allot of movies and is a major complaint every time something goes wrong in a creative work, the fact that Lobdell managed to capture truly organic thoughts is nothing less than impressive. The splash page of Starfire was story relevant and came back to haunt her in issue 4, they didn't just do it as fan service it contributed to the story, this is why I ask that if people continue to criticize something they keep up with it so they know what's going on. Starfire was on in a swimsuit because they were on a beach the same reason that Jason and Roy were shirtless they spent as much time showing skin as Starfire and they were actually showing more skin I think it's note worthy that nobody continues this objectification or fan service just because there men.

Lobdell capturing organic thoughts through a dialogue between two characters that objectified another as being nothing less than impressive is your take. I didn't and still don't feel that way and feel he could have achieved organic dialogue through other, less offensive means. That dialogue unfortunately lent to the whole feel of that first issue in regards to Starfire. You consider that water shot of Starfire not fan service? Again - that is your opinion and not mine. To me, it was, and frankly pulling up scans to prove my point would be counter-productive to our discussion. You feel the male characters were just as objectified as Starfire? Okay - fair enough although I still don't agree with you for reasons I have already stated in my earlier post. My criticism stands on how Starfire was presented in issue #1 - and I fault the writer for it.

As already pointed out there was a disclaimer, and you can't expect a 5 issue story arc ='s culminating point in issue 1 so I don't even kow what to say to this complaint. If your going to move on from a series and drop it, then move on and stop complaining after your no longer involved or up to date

There was no disclaimer at the time the first issue was released - it came out only in response to the concerns brought by fans after the fact. Furthermore, the expectation that your customers would continue to purchase your product based on selective responses to their questions doesn't foster confidence. It certainly didn't for me. Everyone has a right to their opinion, you certainly have yours - I have mine. My criticism of the introductory issue of this series stands as a fellow comic book fan. You telling me to "move on" and stop "complaining" is confusing as I have moved on, and I am not complaining? To me, this is a conversation dealing with the initial concerns over Starfire's character and the reasons why I chose not to pick up this title. Is this not why there are websites like ComicVine?That's the whole reason why you and I are even having this conversation, isn't it? To welcome and seek dialogue about various comics? You appear to share this sentiment by choosingto respond to my comments (which by they way I have appreciated) but should you choose not to, that would be fine as well.

Comic books can run for 100's of issues, the first book is the cover.

At risk of sounding facetious, I am aware that comic books run for 100's of issues - my collections of various series throughout the years remind me of that and so does the money spent in accumulating them. The first book - the "cover" is what I based my decision to purchase more of this particular series. I have done this with other new 52 books. You choose to wait for an entire story arc before reaching a decision if a series is worth adding to your pull list? Great. For me, I don't. That first issue in combination of it's writer's response to his readers was enough for me to decide not to purchase any further books. Unfortunate, as I did happen to like Starfire previously, but that's how it works. I spent my money elsewhere and that was directly because of how Starfire was depicted initially. That is the reality.

As a key member of the series criticizing his portrayal of Starfire is kind of like criticizing the whole thing which you of course are welcomed to do, however doing so after only 1 issue is fairly short sighted, you have no idea what's coming and your criticism may be found to be completely unfounded in an issue or two, turns out these criticisms became unsupported after 4

I respectfully disagree with your assertion I am criticizing the whole series based on Lobdell's initial portrayal of Starfire. That is simply not true. I still feel Lobdell's initial presentation of Starfire was ill conceived - it was fairly short-sighted of him to assume fans would simply take his word for it that it would improve. I had hoped he would address my concerns satisfactorily, and he did not. So I did not continue to purchase any more books. I am repeating myself, I know - but this is the truth. My criticism stands - and again, let me re-iterate, I am happy that Starfire has developed into a more deep character as she deserves. Looks like the series is doing well- wonderful - but the money I would have spent on this series is now being spent somewhere else. That's just the way it is.

Pardon my horrible grammar, spelling and general literary failings, I just sat through the new Ghost Rider movie and I still haven't recovered fully

LOL - I understand and there is nothing to pardon. Thank you for taking the time to share your insights with me.

@BlackArmor said:

@ScarlettAssassin said:

Looks like its been addressed, but holy cow - six issues to do it? And yes - people should judge a new series based on its first issue - that's the way it works in the comics business. Maybe her character should have been established first and then reveal her to be this free-thinking, female of the universe who indulges her physical wants. Maybe then she wouldn't have been translated into a robot-following blow up doll by such a large amount of fans. It was a failing on the part of the writer - and back then, he chose to focus only on the faction who threw the word "slut" around instead of the real concerns real fans had

You would know that it took 4 issues to address it if you didn't judge a book by it's cover and didn't stop reading after issue 1, at the very least don't judge it if you aren't reading and have no idea what's going on

No. Lobdell deserved the criticism and to me, it looks like he paid attention to it. I wish continued success to this comic.

i disagree but about the criticism but it's your opinion. I do request that you read more than 1 issue before criticizing the entire series

I am just wondering. If she stated that she disliked the book, how was she supposed to read it? Would you have expected her to buy the book and support the writing even though she didn't like it, OR, download it illegally?

Neither way sounds ideal.

@SC: If you read my latest (or at this juncture second to latest) comment you will see that I make the argument that objectification is not right but that since it happens in real life all media will attempt to reflect it as is the nature of media, furthermore I also point out Jason and Roy's scant clothing to point out that it is the fans and opponents who are pointing out Starfire and not Lobdell himself. Additionally your analogy about your fictional pet horse is pointless unless it only looked like he was eating people but really it was clever misleading and not the true case at all, either way perhaps the officer should have given the horse a fair trial before execution. It would be fair for you to tell me to read every book if I went around criticizing everyone that I didn't read, then I would be shooting my mouth off about something that I don't know the first thing about, it would be like if I was operating on somebody without having gone to medical school because I saw a video tape about it.Criticism is good when constructive but unfounded criticism is a bad thing it adds nothing but rubbish and pointless obsolete objections to an otherwise constructive conversation, I can't tell you what music to listen to if I don't know what you like and so my hundreds of emails suggesting songs would be junk mail gumming up your inbox if it is without knowledge or founding

it's also good dialogue and how guys actually talk it would lower the quality of the book to exclude realistic observations from characters. Both Roy and Jason were walking around shirtless for half the book but I suppose that's not notable.

It wasn't emptying of the character it's a team book and she wasn't featured prominently until issue 4, Roy wasn't until issue 5, starting with book 2 both Roy and Starfire had equal dialog and Starfire had more scenes where she saved everybody than Roy did, you would know that if you kept reading past book 1 or at least stopped judging through book 6

You would know that it took 4 issues to address it if you didn't judge a book by it's cover and didn't stop reading after issue 1, at the very least don't judge it if you aren't reading and have no idea what's going on

 
 
@BlackArmor

i disagree but about the criticism but it's your opinion. I do request that you read more than 1 issue before criticizing the entire series

@ScarlettAssassin said:

@BlackArmor said:

@ScarlettAssassin said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@spiderbat87: @BlackArmor: Where is all the complaining about Red Hood being damn near naked throughout the whole book?When Starfire was in a bikini it was World War 3 and Scott Lobdell was being sexist.

So many of you are missing the point many fans had with the first issue of this book. The very first panels of it had a male character refer to Starfire as powerful - as in - a pair of 38's. That is objectification. That was a sexist remark. That was provided by the writer (Lobdell). Then - shortly thereafter, there was a pin-up sized drawing of Starfire in her "World War 3" instigating bikini.

No the very first panles were about Roy being executed, there was no mention of Starfire for several pages. Admittedly yes it's objectification, it's also good dialogue and how guys actually talk it would lower the quality of the book to exclude realistic observations from characters. Both Roy and Jason were walking around shirtless for half the book but I suppose that's not notable.

One of the concerns was the objectification of Starfire. I found it was insulting not only to her character, but also to the character who made the observation of the size of her breasts. If I were to follow your logic, since objectification of women is done in the real world - it should be acceptable because it would take away from the comic book's quality if it were not there? Interesting take, but for me, I disagree. It's inclusion lowered the quality of the book to me. As for Roy and Jason walking around shirtless for half the book, I fail to see the objectification? I didn't see them flinging their hair from the water in a page-sized panel in a provocative pose, showcasing the pair of 38's these realistic speaking guys earlier noted. But then again, following your logic, a couple of guys walking around shirtless on a beach would be found in the real word so therefor, the quality of the comic book would have suffered without those images.

No, you're not following my logic at all, I'm not saying it's right but I'm saying it's real and relevant and organic and comics as a type of media does what all types of media always try to do they reflect the real, Take one of my favorite characters Vic Sage smoked himself to death, this doesn't make smoking right but as always comics reflect real life in some capacity so having Jason say, no think something that any real guy would think is just the nature of comics. Lack of organic dialogue has destroyed allot of movies and is a major complaint every time something goes wrong in a creative work, the fact that Lobdell managed to capture truly organic thoughts is nothing less than impressive. The splash page of Starfire was story relevant and came back to haunt her in issue 4, they didn't just do it as fan service it contributed to the story, this is why I ask that if people continue to criticize something they keep up with it so they know what's going on. Starfire was on in a swimsuit because they were on a beach the same reason that Jason and Roy were shirtless they spent as much time showing skin as Starfire and they were actually showing more skin I think it's note worthy that nobody continues this objectification or fan service just because there men.

@BlackArmor said:

Pretty sure Fodigg post earlier in this thread was clear on the majority of fans' take on Starfire's re-introduction in the new 52. To me - Starfire shoud/could be with whomever she chooses, and should/could wear whatever she wants. It was the complete emptying of a previously enjoyed character and how she was presented that caused some discontent.

It wasn't emptying of the character it's a team book and she wasn't featured prominently until issue 4, Roy wasn't until issue 5, starting with book 2 both Roy and Starfire had equal dialog and Starfire had more scenes where she saved everybody than Roy did, you would know that if you kept reading past book 1 or at least stopped judging through book 6

Starfire was presented in the first issue of this new series as someone completely devoid of memory, and with no trace of her former self that fans earlier enjoyed. That's it. There was no disclaimer in the book stating "Hey - no worries, we'll get more into who Starfire is later on in say four issues. Hang tight!" Of course not. But there was enough focus on Starfire in that introductory issue to gives her fans some real concerns as to the direction of that character. Its a first issue - best foot forward, no? As a business, doesn't DC want to attract new readers, and retain old? It's not like an introductory story arc in an established series where fans could maybe think to themselves they should be patient and wait for the following issues to smooth things out. Legitimately, a lot of readers were put off. Wonderful - it didn't turn out that way - great, she got some dialogue and some concerns were addressed and put to rest. Pretty sure my money is a good as the next person's - that first issue was a product I purchased and I found it lacking. So yes, I judged it to not be good, I found fault with the writer and it made me not want to buy any more. Pretty straightforward. Just like how you enjoyed it and chose to put it on your pull list, I did not.

As already pointed out there was a disclaimer, and you can't expect a 5 issue story arc ='s culminating point in issue 1 so I don't even kow what to say to this complaint. If your going to move on from a series and drop it, then move on and stop complaining after your no longer involved or up to date

@BlackArmor said:

Looks like its been addressed, but holy cow - six issues to do it? And yes - people should judge a new series based on its first issue - that's the way it works in the comics business. Maybe her character should have been established first and then reveal her to be this free-thinking, female of the universe who indulges her physical wants. Maybe then she wouldn't have been translated into a robot-following blow up doll by such a large amount of fans. It was a failing on the part of the writer - and back then, he chose to focus only on the faction who threw the word "slut" around instead of the real concerns real fans had

You would know that it took 4 issues to address it if you didn't judge a book by it's cover and didn't stop reading after issue 1, at the very least don't judge it if you aren't reading and have no idea what's going on

Um - I didn't judge this book by its cover, I read it's introductory first issue from beginning to end and in doing so, was unhappy with how Starfire was presented and portrayed. Why would I monetarily support a new comic series when I didn't like it's first issue? Lobdell's response to certain fans' displeasure failed to convince me to continue purchasing it. Again, it was pretty straightforward decision I made based on my preferences.

Comic books can run for 100's of issues, the first book is the cover

@BlackArmor said:

No. Lobdell deserved the criticism and to me, it looks like he paid attention to it. I wish continued success to this comic.

i disagree but about the criticism but it's your opinion. I do request that you read more than 1 issue before criticizing the entire series

I criticized the Lobdell's portrayal of Starfire - not the entire series - and because of my opinion on how this writer handled that first issue, I had no confidence in him to continue on with a series I would enjoy. That's the gamble any writer takes when taking on new book or taking over an established one. Yes - these are your and my opinions and clearly they differ. That's why you continued to support this series, and I did not.

This series is doing well? Great!

Starfire is a rock'em, sock'em, bad@ass character who retained some of the personality that fans knew her to possess? Awesome!

You clearly enjoy it, as do others and like I said, I do wish this series continued success, regardless of its shaky beginning. I am only here to address some comments made, like you. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.

As a key member of the series criticizing his portrayal of Starfire is kind of like criticizing the whole thing which you of course are welcomed to do, however doing so after only 1 issue is fairly short sighted, you have no idea what's coming and your criticism may be found to be completely unfounded in an issue or two, turns out these criticisms became unsupported after 4

Pardon my horrible grammar, spelling and general literary failings, I just sat through the new Ghost Rider movie and I still haven't recovered fully