Raven & Trigon pasts (TT #20, spoilers).

#1 Edited by Outside_85 (8124 posts) - - Show Bio

So the book has made it to issue 20 without a change of writer (sadly), and said writer has decided to serve us a stack of information on Raven... which is quite frankly several times more than what we have on several members of the Titans.

So what have we learned, from Trigon I should add:-Trigon is the ruler of something he calls the Under Realms, presumably this is is not Hell since Lucifer is apparently still around in the DCNU (from the pages of Stalker that replaced Beowulf in Amethyst)

-He has a son from each world he's conquered, but Raven is (still) his only daughter

-He got bored with ruling at some point and started exercising terror in differnt forms, one was how he made Raven.

-He apparently older than the Phantom Stranger... but still measures his own age in centuries.

-Trigon let Raven's mother live because he has an idea that she needed to be raised by humans (with love, that he incapable of teaching) so she could recreate the seven underrealms in her own image. This leads me to assume Trigon intended for her to succeed him at some point.

-As in the past Raven's mother flees with her to Azerath where she is raised and was an eager student.

-Then she flees to Earth in order to spare Azerath from Trigon (Lobdell apparently didn't read the fine print of Phantom Stranger that mentioned Azerath had been destroyed and Raven knew it)

-Post Phantom Stranger #1, Raven spent time in the underrealms where time flows faster or was compressed and while Trigon was concerned she could turn the inhabitants against him in her own mindset, he considered that cured after keeping her close to him while they both went into battle in the Underrealms together.

-She has an Ebon Sword and can use it

-Apparently impressed Trigon handed her the Throne of the Underrealms to rule the place as its queen... but is apparently already aware she is not going about the conquest of Earth as he would have (which annoys her dumbed down brothers because she 'favors' humans over her own)

-And finally, like most of the 'Asylum' Titans, Raven's gotten some level of bi-polar disorder that means she can flip from calm to enraged (and this is the 'I will rule the world!' sort) with one wrong placed word.

Sadly, while Lobdell tries to ramp up the badassitude of Raven to the N'th degree (again) he decides to throw all of that away when Cassandra (who's being an N'th degree a-hole here) lamps her one and takes the fight out of her. Which makes me dread all of the building up will just be flashback stuff and never actually be relevant... all flash and no substance.

So what do you all think of this?

#2 Posted by RavenArrow (25 posts) - - Show Bio

Being a life-long fan of Raven, I got mixed feelings by reading this issue, though mostly positive since AT LAST Raven's story was explained and it shed some light as to her true allegiance. Well, some light.

First of all, I really don't know how to feel about the new costume. It was starting to grow on me, but seeing the past costume reminded me of how much better it was. I hope she still has that costume, and will wear it after she is, in some way, Trigon-free.

Now, as to her true alignment, I am now well and truly lost. What I made out of the story: She was raised to be good, but she still thirsted for power and knowledge. Then Trigon lured her into embracing the evil inside of her, but due to the influence of the monks of Azarath, she need to love and be loved, and the Teen Titans were the perfect fit for her, apparently. Now, the bipolar thing and the corny, cheesy ebon sword (which was probably added in order to attract more young and immature readers) I find utterly absurd. Lobdell really needs to learn how to write a character properly, or the team that once was the Teen Titans will crumble to dust, if it hasn't already.

Having said all that, I have to add that I loved the art. Barrows took some time to adjust but is now doing a great job, precisely what I had in mind for the Titans (I had a love-hate relationship with Booth's art--he made all faces look alike, but the rest of the art was something more than fine). Now it reminds me a little bit of the old Titans.

As for Azarath being destroyed, it could have been that it was destroyed some time after her departure. It was implied she stayed some years on Earth (here's hoping that she was in the old Titans team, seeing as she had her costume with her when she came to Earth), so she could have learnt of its destruction in between her arrival to Earth and her capture at the hands of Trigon.

Overall, I am happy that this issue exists, as it resolved quite a few questions so that the Raven story in the present can go on. Now, as to the answers to the questions...well I can't say I'm not satisfied, since it leaves plenty of opportunities for the future. I'm definitely NOT happy with Raven's current state, but it gives me hope that:

  • Either she will aid in destroying Trigon and she will go back to her former self (prior to her capture and rein)
  • or, and that will be interesting to see, she will go double agent, while actually working for herself, so she will backstab Trigon and will aid in destroying/banishing him, in order to gain the Titans' trust. Then, due to the Titans' positive influence, she will slowly go from Machiavellian back to the normal Raven we all know, and turn her back on her evil side. And then some day Trigon will return etc. etc.

So, those are my thoughts, and sorry that they took so long.

#3 Edited by RavenArrow (25 posts) - - Show Bio

And by the way, the cover is SO OFF!!!!! So ridiculous...

#4 Posted by Outside_85 (8124 posts) - - Show Bio

In regards to the art I have to say I am still not a fan of Barrows, despite Booth's flaws regarding faces and expressions, his work was highly detailed and with Barrows (who only does the non-flashback stuff) it's just so flat it's nearly lifeless to me... about as lifeless as Raven looks in the flashback stuff with her helmet on and when she's brooding. Special mention has to go to said fill-in artist for not being able to make Trigons horns appear to be attached to his head... letting it slip that Booth and Anderson pretty clearly depicted them as not being made of bone but smoke.

#5 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

*checks off another tally on the "My Favorite Characters the DC Reboot has Ruined" list*

#6 Edited by RoseFairchild (47 posts) - - Show Bio

I dunno, I liked Raven this issue. This panel certainly helped.

And I may be alone in this, but I actually prefer new 52 Raven over the old Raven. I dunno, she just seems tougher a character. I mean, maybe we're not seeing all of her yet, but old Raven always seemed so... Self deprecating.

I dunno, I don't have much old Raven experience from earlier then the New Titans series, so maybe I don't know the lot of her.

I dunno, agree to disagree I guess. I'm honestly noticing I'm liking quite a few New 52 characters better then their Pre 52 counterparts while others don't. I'm weird like that I guess.

Though really, can we all put aside our New 52 Raven hate and focus it all on the worse evil. Injustice Raven. That version is a hundred times worse then the New 52 version, that face, that voice, that story, ugh. I mean c'mon, when you think about it, more people will be exposed to Injustice Raven then New 52 Raven when you consider all the Gamers and Mortal Kombat fans who might never touch a comic'll be exposed to her and think that's the normal.

That's what we have to fight against. I mean sure she may be different. But at least she's not that.

#7 Edited by Outside_85 (8124 posts) - - Show Bio

@rosefairchild: Well, as I have said before; I'd prefer the In justice version to the New 52 version.

#8 Edited by RavenArrow (25 posts) - - Show Bio

@rosefairchild: Well, as I have said before; I'd prefer the In justice version to the New 52 version.

I absolutely agree. I mean, I would be lying if I said I didn't like New 52 Raven at all, but it's just not Raven. Were she a brand new character I would have rejoiced, but this is just not the Raven we know. Thank Go, they at least didn't screw her past...

#9 Edited by ThatOneKidWhoLikesComics (58 posts) - - Show Bio

@rosefairchild said:

I dunno, I liked Raven this issue. This panel certainly helped.

And I may be alone in this, but I actually prefer new 52 Raven over the old Raven. I dunno, she just seems tougher a character. I mean, maybe we're not seeing all of her yet, but old Raven always seemed so... Self deprecating.

I dunno, I don't have much old Raven experience from earlier then the New Titans series, so maybe I don't know the lot of her.

I dunno, agree to disagree I guess. I'm honestly noticing I'm liking quite a few New 52 characters better then their Pre 52 counterparts while others don't. I'm weird like that I guess.

Though really, can we all put aside our New 52 Raven hate and focus it all on the worse evil. Injustice Raven. That version is a hundred times worse then the New 52 version, that face, that voice, that story, ugh. I mean c'mon, when you think about it, more people will be exposed to Injustice Raven then New 52 Raven when you consider all the Gamers and Mortal Kombat fans who might never touch a comic'll be exposed to her and think that's the normal.

That's what we have to fight against. I mean sure she may be different. But at least she's not that.

I think Raven's old costume is somewhat better, because it has no feathers.

#10 Posted by jacobsben (108 posts) - - Show Bio

so does this mean raven is still a good person?

#11 Edited by The Stegman (23041 posts) - - Show Bio

This issue was such a pain to read, Trigon's exposition felt so forced, and the dialogue continues to be cheesy as heck. Also..IS RED ROBIN EVIL OR NOT?? Seriously, they've been hinting at it for 3 issues now and all he's done was snap at his teammates and play with the hearts of Cassie and Solstice, do something already! This title is a mess, if feels like it wants to go in several different directions(Tim's story, Raven's story, Beast Boy's story, Kid Flash's story, Psimon's there now) but ends up going nowhere.

Online
#12 Posted by jacobsben (108 posts) - - Show Bio

so does this mean raven is still a good person?

#13 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

Seems like Raven used to be a good person, then she became a bad person, and now she is trying to be a good person again but sometimes she loses control and becomes a bad person. So maybe Raven is the new Hulk.

#14 Posted by Outside_85 (8124 posts) - - Show Bio

@colonyofcells: She always had that Hulk/Phoenix-aspect to her, she was just much better at controlling it than Banner and didn't end up dead like Jean.

@jacobsben: Difficult to say at this point.

#15 Edited by Dernman (14728 posts) - - Show Bio

This leads me to assume Trigon intended for her to succeed him at some point.

I think he intends to set her up as Queen when he takes up a higher role of Demonic god type character. Where she has to do the boring stuff but he still gets all the power.

Don't like the new look and don't think I the new Raven.

#16 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

Raven has always been half demon so maybe Raven will always be half naughty and half nice. In the older continuity, Raven was able to get rid of the naughty part, sometimes.

#17 Posted by jacobsben (108 posts) - - Show Bio
#18 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

I would assume Raven will be with the Teen Titans for a while, and maybe go to the dark side every now and then for particular stories.

#19 Posted by jacobsben (108 posts) - - Show Bio

I just don't want her to be bad permanently

#20 Posted by SeekerOfTheTruth (5 posts) - - Show Bio

@ravenarrow: I hope the same outcomes are true. I am very upset with the reboot, but I will be happy if they make her better than she was. The costume is absurd, but if she would lose the hat thing then it would be a little more bearable.

#21 Posted by jacobsben (108 posts) - - Show Bio

you know lobdell is on twitter and facebook we could jsut ask him

#22 Posted by jacobsben (108 posts) - - Show Bio

like I said I just want raven to still be good

#23 Edited by tsalmavet (23 posts) - - Show Bio

I kind of like this version of Raven. I like this back story almost as much as the original one. My biggest complaint is the ebon sword. I don't think Raven should be using any kind of weapon, magical or not, It just doesn't seem like her. I am excited for her to show more of her abilities/ powers.

#24 Edited by jacobsben (108 posts) - - Show Bio

All I know is I'm tired of being screwed around like this we deserve a straight answer as too what raven's alignment truly is

#25 Posted by Outside_85 (8124 posts) - - Show Bio

@tsalmavet: While I agree Raven and a sword is an odd couple, I think it's only really natural in this setting that she'd use on now. Before Flashpoint, she was a product of Azerath's extreme form of pacifism which she rebelled against. Now however she's been influenced by her father for some time and her personality has ended up 'tweaked' as a result.

That said, I cant personally bring myself to criticize this feature... since in my own FF writing I end up giving her one as well (even if it's the cartoon version of her).

@jacobsben: It's pretty much always been; depends on her mood.

#26 Edited by tsalmavet (23 posts) - - Show Bio

I just hope she uses her powers equally(if not more) than the sword.

What do you think they will do with her powers? (how many she gained, lost, etc.)

#27 Posted by IsabellaRoth (60 posts) - - Show Bio

I am a life-long fan of Raven. She is my reason to read comics.. and exceptionally Talia Alghaul to read Bat`s comics- But well.. Raven in my opinion is much much better in this new Earth than before- As someone said before I look her less depressive with more attitude.. more mysterious if that is even possible. I love to see Raven no cared all the time about her emotions like before... but i dont think is good idea to add her in the Teen Titans team. I hope to see her someday in Justice League Dark - no less she deserves- // Sorry for my bad English =)

#28 Posted by Outside_85 (8124 posts) - - Show Bio

@tsalmavet said:

What do you think they will do with her powers? (how many she gained, lost, etc.)

While I am hoping otherwise, I think Raven will end up being less unique than how Wolfman invented her to be and will end up with more standardized powers. It might make it easier for the reader/writer to understand then, but really, is there no room to be unique and a tiny bit complex about it?

Examples of possible changes:

Empathy is turned into full on telepathy because it's easier to explain.

Magic becomes more pronounced ala the likes of Fate, Strange and Zatanna.

Healing gets turned from Empathy to some ability she inherited or gained through her mixed blood.

The only thing I dont think they will change is her Soul-Self, and thats just because it's her signature thing.

Now if they wanted to make her completely OP they would look to the cartoon and add the ability to stop time. :)

#29 Posted by jacobsben (108 posts) - - Show Bio

I like the sword

#31 Edited by jacobsben (108 posts) - - Show Bio

does anyone know how this ends

This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

Comment and Save

Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Comic Vine users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.