Raven in New 52?

#1 Posted by minigunman123 (3116 posts) - - Show Bio
#2 Edited by Catman9 (318 posts) - - Show Bio

Blood was revealed at the end of Ravagers #2. Beast Boy had a vision and something about Brother Blood was after Beast Boy for some reason. Maybe to turn into a goat for demonic sacrifice.

#3 Posted by minigunman123 (3116 posts) - - Show Bio

@Catman9: Didn't know it was already revealed :P I don't read the series because I'm angry over some changes to characters that feature in the comic (I'll never get over Beast Boy's new color, ever, no matter how insignificant it may seem to everyone else :| )

#4 Posted by Outside_85 (9548 posts) - - Show Bio

I doubt it's an indirect sign of her immediate return, Johns was the one that made the whole Church of Blood=Trigon connection while Wolfman/Perez cast him as a charlatan cult leader who simply picked Raven because he needed her empathy to sway the masses.

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#5 Posted by DarkShadows (742 posts) - - Show Bio

I hope she's not appearing in the Ravagers, though I doubt she will.

DC already planned to use Raven in something big, and the Ravagers isn't that big (well, to me).

#6 Posted by minigunman123 (3116 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkShadows: Ravagers is lame, hopefully they'll use Raven in a large plot that spans several series, would be a nice re-introduction. The hard part is making an original plot that would be that big :P

#7 Posted by Beast_in_the_Shadows (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkShadows: I don't know if she will actually appear in the Ravagers, but I think her presence will make itself known there. The old viral campaign that was surrounding Pandora early on spoke about Raven commanding a group of followers and using those followers to fight for Pandora.

I imagine that the big plans they had for Raven will take place is the War of Sins where she uses the Church of Blood and the meta-powered kids still controlled by N.O.W.H.E.R.E. to fight on Pandora's side.

Or if she is going to be a good guy, then perhaps she is fighting against Blood, and she is the one who gave Gar his prophetic dream. If that is the case, than maybe the ones she will use to fight in the War of Sins will be the main team of the Ravagers.

Anyway, as far as I am concerned, she will be attached to this book in some way. N.O.W.H.E.R.E. clearly has a demonic-bird theme going. Harvest is a bird thing, the "new?" Omen had feathers for no explained reason and they were trying to turn Tim into a bird-person as well. Add to that that since John's connection of the two, no other depiction of DC has tried to separate Trigon and The Church of Blood.

@minigunman123: I couldn't agree more with you about Gar's current color. It was a pointless change and I'm harboring every hope I have that when the whole mess with the Rott is over that the Red will go back into balance and Gar will regain his green color.

I really don't see him staying red long as not only does he have a long history of being green, but there will be two animated versions of Gar on tv both portraying him as green. Hopefully that will be enough reason for DC to explain this away as a temporary color change because of either the Red or something N.O.W.H.E.R.E. did.

#8 Posted by DarkShadows (742 posts) - - Show Bio

@Beast_in_the_Shadows: Wait... is Brother Blood still connected to Trigon? If not, then I really doubt that she would show up in the Ravagers. Like I said before, the title isn't all that big and it didn't really catch my eye.

#9 Posted by Beast_in_the_Shadows (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkShadows: I imagine The Church of Blood is still connected to Trigon. Every depictions of the Church of blood since that revelation still includes the connection. Even in the online game, Brother Blood is still working for Trigon, so I don't think DC is making any efforts to separate them. Then you have to look at all the hints that N.O.W.H.E.R.E. is connected to Raven. Not only are Harvest and the "new" Omen heavily demonic bird themed, but they also tried to turn Tim into a bird creature. Also consider what Raven first did in the old universe, she sought out teenagers with super abilities to help her defeat he father. N.O.W.H.E.R.E. may be doing it in a far crueler fashion, but you can't deny that their end result was gather super-powered teenagers to fight for them against some unnamed foe.

All of that on it's own would be speculation using a few coincidences for evidence, but now that we know Blood is involved, I think there is too much to ignore and it is safe to assume that Raven will have some connection in the book. She might not directly show up in it until after the War of Sins, but even then I think we will learn that whoever has been pulling the strings is Trigon or her.

Also consider what happened at the very end of Ravagers #2. Beast Boy wakes up in a start after having a prophetic Nightmare about Blood killing the other escaped Ravagers, spurring him to head back to help them. Now in this universe it seems like Gar has never met Blood, so he couldn't have been having a coincidental dream. Nor has he ever been known for any kind of clairvoyance or future sight. So how did he come to have this dream? I would assume that this vision was given to him by Raven. Either as a warning, If she is to be fighting against Blood, or as bait to lure him in, if she is working above Blood and needs Gar for what ever reason Blood does.

#10 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33917 posts) - - Show Bio
@minigunman123

@Catman9: Didn't know it was already revealed :P I don't read the series because I'm angry over some changes to characters that feature in the comic (I'll never get over Beast Boy's new color, ever, no matter how insignificant it may seem to everyone else :| )

I kinda like it, it connects him to The Red and Animalman
#11 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33917 posts) - - Show Bio
@Beast_in_the_Shadows all of the Ravagers have had there memorys repressed so it would be some old memorys resurfacing
#12 Posted by Beast_in_the_Shadows (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jonny_Anonymous: It could be, but repressed memories don't usually resurface unless someone is actually looking for them through hypnosis, or unless a traumatic experience make a subconscious connection and rushes it back to the conscious mind. Gar was probably more relaxed and at ease in that moment before the dream then he ever had been for a long time considering what was happening to him in the colony, so I doubt it was a repressed memory. Besides, if it was a repressed memory, it wouldn't have featured the other "Ravagers" exsanguinated and floating in a pool of blood, as they are all still alive.

As for him being red, it didn't need to happen as his powers were already enough of a connection to Animal Man. He doesn't need to be color coded for the sake of a smaller characters gimmick.

#13 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33917 posts) - - Show Bio
@Beast_in_the_Shadows Animalman is not a smaller character
#14 Posted by BlackDove (375 posts) - - Show Bio

If Beast Boy had a vision, then it most likely was a sign of Raven's return. Let's remember now that Raven's returns are always dramatic.

#15 Posted by telepathic666 (227 posts) - - Show Bio

well if raven is coming back and as Pandora's "herald" of sorts does that mean Pandora is linked to Trigon as well. Because whenever she comes back Trigon isn't to far behind...

#16 Posted by Outside_85 (9548 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackDove: @telepathic666: @Beast_in_the_Shadows:

For starters, I am going to have to puncture the rumor about Raven being a herald for Pandora, it was made by a regular DC board user who made a new account through one of the other WB forums that could still venture over into the closed DCU boards where he made the many posts about Raven leading an army alongside Zealot (I think it was). Some tow or three days before the boards shut down completely he stepped up and announced it was just a prank on his part.

Second part, Blood as so far not revealed to be connected to Trigon (which never amounted to anything other than Johns reintroduction of Brad Blood and Raven), his cult appears to be fanatically dedicated to Blood alone (as a rule of thumb it is not the high priest that's worshipped, it's the god he represents).

As for the visions Beast Boy has, Blood mentions that he aims to get into the Red, which could be said is a Plane of Flesh and Blood, Beast Boy is more deeply connected to this place because of his powers and the changes in it is why he's now red and not green. So the visions he is getting is more likely the Red reaching out to him and warning him of Blood's planned invasion the same way Buddy also dreams of the Red and the future

Finally...plots and events in video games, cartoons and movies have no immediate effect on comics. Added that the DCUO Brother Blood is the old version of him, just added Johns' religious beliefs and powers. Like the old Blood was the center of his cult, he was the god, and his powers was a form of empathy he could convert into raw power if he wished and being a very good speaker on top of it. What he really needed Raven for however was to aid him in converting the world to his church, thus giving him more and more power.

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#17 Posted by cloudzackvincent (1028 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

@BlackDove: @telepathic666: @Beast_in_the_Shadows:

For starters, I am going to have to puncture the rumor about Raven being a herald for Pandora, it was made by a regular DC board user who made a new account through one of the other WB forums that could still venture over into the closed DCU boards where he made the many posts about Raven leading an army alongside Zealot (I think it was). Some tow or three days before the boards shut down completely he stepped up and announced it was just a prank on his part.

Second part, Blood as so far not revealed to be connected to Trigon (which never amounted to anything other than Johns reintroduction of Brad Blood and Raven), his cult appears to be fanatically dedicated to Blood alone (as a rule of thumb it is not the high priest that's worshipped, it's the god he represents).

As for the visions Beast Boy has, Blood mentions that he aims to get into the Red, which could be said is a Plane of Flesh and Blood, Beast Boy is more deeply connected to this place because of his powers and the changes in it is why he's now red and not green. So the visions he is getting is more likely the Red reaching out to him and warning him of Blood's planned invasion the same way Buddy also dreams of the Red and the future

Finally...plots and events in video games, cartoons and movies have no immediate effect on comics. Added that the DCUO Brother Blood is the old version of him, just added Johns' religious beliefs and powers. Like the old Blood was the center of his cult, he was the god, and his powers was a form of empathy he could convert into raw power if he wished and being a very good speaker on top of it. What he really needed Raven for however was to aid him in converting the world to his church, thus giving him more and more power.

nicely put...

#18 Edited by Beast_in_the_Shadows (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85: Ok, I didn't know it was just a prank, and apologize in my part for spreading that rumor.

Second, Blood hasn't been revealed to be connected connected to Trigon yet, but they haven't shown the opposite either. My point about it being included in a video game is that they thought the idea fit enough to use it again rather than another origin. what happens in videos games doesn't directly affect the comics, no, but they do reflect the attitudes and opinions of people making comics.

Next, Blood never mentions wanting wanting to go to the Red. He says "This Red Place" that could mean the red, or it could also mean some vision of hell that these three women have shown him. There are several details that lead me to believe that this Brother Blood was just a hack cult leader until these three women were sent to him to offer him power his services. He doesn't order them around, nor is he even able to get them to reveal who the key is. Second, they are teaching him how to use the Blood, so it is a new power to him. So they clearly aren't his followers and were sent by whoever is granting this power. Also, this blood gives me the impression that it is Sebastian, mostly because he says things like "show me what you got" and "not cool" Things I wouldn't expect from any older Blood. Sebastian from his inception was connect to Trigon.

As for these women, if they were animal themed or undead themed, I could buy them being representations of the Red or The Rott. However, they aren't, but their look certainly has a twisted demonic feel to it.

Lastly, let's look at this Blood's motives. He wants to gain power from the Ravagers, now this could mean adding them to his followers, but if they mean he will actually get more powerful then only Sebastian was ever able to harness the strength of his foes through their blood. Second, he needs gar because Gar is the "key" for this portal. the Red could make sense, but in the past gar has literally served as a "key" several times in attempts to reach Trigon.

Lastly, to quote one of Bloods followers "More blood in needed to fuel the ceremony that will allow the master to bring his Lord to Earth" That has Trigon written all over it. it could be referring to some villain from the red or Rottworld, but if Buddy is fighting this big bad villain in his book, why would the method of which the villain enters our world happen in another book where only one character is even involved with Buddy's story.

If they were using Brother Blood, but all these things didn't happen, I wouldn't assume Trigon was involved. Likewise if all these things happend, but focused around a villain who was never connect to Trigon before. It's the fact that it is Blood and all these and all these recurring Trigon elements are surrounding him. Him calling it "this red place" was an intentional "red" herring to make people suspect the Red, so that it is more exciting in issues #0 and #5 when this book will directly address the issues happening in Animal Man.

Anyway, back to the point of Raven. If she doesn't show up earlier, Phantom Stranger #1 will show what role the Stranger had in her origin.

#19 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

So I'm reading live updates from the DC NOW! panel at comic con... and apparently, according to Lobdell, "Raven is coming up in Teen Titans". So... food for thought, I guess.

#20 Posted by BlackDove (375 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't say I'm disappointed. I'm hoping for bigger and better for Raven. Thanks a lot Outside_85, Beast_in_the_Shadows, and Ravager4.

#21 Posted by Outside_85 (9548 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4: Got a link...I seem to recall it being Marvel doing the NOW! thing?

@Beast_in_the_Shadows:

I would point out that Trigon is also considered to be satan of the game world and much of the magical characters quests and ultimate goals revolve around either stopping him from coming (Wonder Woman) or be ready to snatch his power (Circe). However much Marv and George wanted Trigon to actually be that in comics...DC went with Neron for most of the time. But i get your point since the game was scripted by Jim Lee.

I kinda doubt DC would allow two different places to be called the same name since they are now enforcing that charcters arent allowed to be called the same names either. But I dont think its a seperate place either, Brother Blood wants to go into the Red and will eventually butt heads with Animal Man over it. And it makes sense, Blood has a thing for blood and everything fluid in the Red is blood. As for his lady friends, I kinda see a connection between them and Omen, so they could be some from Harvest (btw I didn't say they came from the Red). Reason I think he doesnt treat them like the others...is because the others are mindless; skinned their own faces, endlessly chant Bloods praise, the three women however are oracles...and hurting them would probably be a bad idea. Well I figured it was Sebastian as well since he talks like a punk :)

While Gar has worked as a key for Trigon twice, and it is most likely him again, I dont think Trigon is inside the Red.

It could also be some fringe part of the Red, since I dont think we can lable the Red and Green as purely good or evil. But heres an intersting thought...What if Bloods master is Hades?

Like so many people have said before; It's a new continuety, we can't assume anything from the old order remains...added that the Blood/Trigon connection was never really used for anything other than to explain why Sebastian could have an army of demons, partially due to the fact that Trigon was dead up untill Titans.

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#22 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85: go to newsarama or dccomics.com

DC did the DC now thing panel first. Then marvel announced the Marvel now.

#23 Posted by Beast_in_the_Shadows (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4: That's interesting. He originally said she would be showing up in TT but said he was no longer allowed to because DC had bigger plans for her. I wonder if DC changed their plans or if they decided that Lobdell's story was too tied to raven to keep her out of it. I long entertained the idea that Raven could have been behind N.O.W.H.E.R.E. what with Harvest and Omen having heavy demon-bird themes.

#24 Posted by Iamlovewithin500 (1028 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not in a big hurry.At least when she makes her official debut they put a lot of time and effort into her.I'd rather them plan this out and take their time rather than rush just to please whining fans. I'm not really rushing the fact, because It could turn out two ways. 
 
Her new revamp and come back could be well done,or it could go down the drain...lol 
 
I just hope whatever "big part" she's suppose to be having isn't a let down.(Trust me I've been through it enough,same type of talk with Storm over at Marvel)

#25 Posted by Portimion (31 posts) - - Show Bio

In Teen Titans # 1, Red Robin is looking at a screen of reports of teenage meta humans, and on the screen was a dark-haired girl who ran away from home, and another picture of her shows her lifting a hand, and a giant black raven appears. Coincidence? ms. Martian was also plainly shown. although no mention of her.

#26 Posted by Outside_85 (9548 posts) - - Show Bio

@Portimion: According to Lobdell via Twitter the girl in the picture was Tracy 13.

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#27 Posted by BatWatch (2812 posts) - - Show Bio

What does Brother Blood have to do with Raven? I didn't see the connection on his comicvine site. Your not mixing Brother Blood up with Trigon, are you?

#28 Posted by Outside_85 (9548 posts) - - Show Bio

@PsychoKnights said:

What does Brother Blood have to do with Raven? I didn't see the connection on his comicvine site. Your not mixing Brother Blood up with Trigon, are you?

In the New52 there is no connection between them, so far. During W/P's run Blood only wanted Raven because of her empathic powers. Johns' retooled Blood and his Church into Trigon worshippers early on in his own TT run, it was never hinted at before that.

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#29 Posted by BatWatch (2812 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

@PsychoKnights said:

What does Brother Blood have to do with Raven? I didn't see the connection on his comicvine site. Your not mixing Brother Blood up with Trigon, are you?

In the New52 there is no connection between them, so far. During W/P's run Blood only wanted Raven because of her empathic powers. Johns' retooled Blood and his Church into Trigon worshippers early on in his own TT run, it was never hinted at before that.

Interesting. That makes sense then.

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