Bad News

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#1 Edited by DarkShadows (741 posts) - - Show Bio

Lobdell then promised in “Teen Titans” that Raven will be joining the team, as well as Supergirl. The audience cheered, then cheered again in response to Lobdell asking who wants to see a “Teen Titans” spinoff.

Any thoughts on this?

I, for one, am mad. I thought Lobdell isn't going to use her anymore. Ugh. I was expecting something much bigger for Raven, something like the JL Dark.

Damn writers, always sticking her in the Teen Titans.

#2 Posted by AweSam (7376 posts) - - Show Bio

Not Supergirl! She has to be independent. A character gets ruined when they join a team, especially the Teen Titans. Raven should also have a solo.

#3 Edited by DarkShadows (741 posts) - - Show Bio

@AweSam: Supergirl deserves to be on another team while Raven joins the JL Dark, or those two ladies could team up together, I don't care! As long as those two stay out of the Titans.

#4 Posted by BlackDove (375 posts) - - Show Bio

How predictable. And I thought this would bring something interesting and new for Raven. Thanks for the update DarkShadows.

#5 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8869 posts) - - Show Bio

Raven should have a solo of be in JLA Dark not the Teen titans

#6 Posted by KnightRise (4762 posts) - - Show Bio

If Raven was in Justice League Dark, I'd be encouraged to buy the title. To me she's way bigger than Zatana or Deadman

#7 Posted by Nighthunter (28582 posts) - - Show Bio

How is the return of Raven exactly bad news? She is back from limbo and she can always go somewhere else later.

#8 Posted by danhimself (22713 posts) - - Show Bio

just to clear it up...Lobdell said that he would love to have Supergirl on Teen Titans but it probably won't happen

#9 Posted by DarkShadows (741 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nighthunter: For one thing, she's always in the Titans, that's the reason why it bother me so much and probably most of the other Raven fans. It is time for her to move on from that team.

#10 Posted by sethysquare (3842 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry I didn't know this thread was created already. But for those who say TT isn't big enough,

@DarkShadows: Have you noticed that Teen Titans is a bigger seller than Justice League Dark?

@AweSam: Also, not sure what you mean by that statement. Batman, Superman, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Wonder Woman and Flash are in the Justice League. So are they ruined?

IMO I've been dying for Supergirl to join a team because I was pretty pissed that Supergirl isn't getting alot of love. Justice League seems to be very exclusive right now and the 2nd team book with the highest sales is Teen Titans. So I'm really glad that both Raven and possibly Supergirl will join TT :)

#11 Posted by DarkShadows (741 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare: Well, I haven't been keeping up with any comics so I never knew that the Titans is selling more than JL Dark. I just think the JL Dark is more fitting for Raven than the Titans.

#12 Posted by AweSam (7376 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare: No, the Justice League is more of an alliance that unite against a common threat. The Teen Titans are always together and the members tend to get less exposure.

#13 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare: The problem that I think most people have is that, a while back, DC said they had "big plans" for Raven, and fans were excited because it apparently meant that Raven would be moving away from the Teen Titans, which she's kind of always been shackled to, and really getting a chance to shine on her own and move up in relevance and standing in the DCU (It's also important to mention that they said this was the entire reason she hadn't appeared in Teen Titans yet... because these plans were greater than just sticking her on her old team). Apparently, however, those "big plans" that were supposed to move her beyond the Titans and make her more important... involved putting her exactly where she was before. On the Teen Titans. Again. While something might still happen with her in the future, she's starting out back at square one, after already having been claimed to be more important this time around.

#14 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (12589 posts) - - Show Bio

GET SUPERGIRL OUT OF THE TT'S.

#15 Posted by sethysquare (3842 posts) - - Show Bio

@AweSam: Supergirl still got her own title. Joining a team means I get to see her in 2 books. If Justice League is out of bounds for secondary characters, Teen Titans is where I would want Supergirl to go.

@Ravager4: She is going to be in Phantom Stranger as well. Also I believe her membership isn't bounded to her own title.

#16 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare: Supposedly appearing in Phantom Stranger. It sure looks like it, but now I'm not so sure if that cover isn't just one giant tease. It just really makes me question some of DC's thought process when they say they keep Raven out of Teen Titans because they have bigger plans for her, but then later say she's going to be joining the Teen Titans. Contradictory much?

#17 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13626 posts) - - Show Bio

Woohoo!!!!! Calling it now, Tim and Kara are totally gonna hook up.

#18 Posted by sethysquare (3842 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4: She isn't joining Teen Titans just yet, but I believe they wanted to keep her off because Didio wants to tell an arc about Trigon and her to give her a book to retell her origins instead of being lumped in a team book without telling a origin of any sort. I believe she might also appear in Justice League Dark. But its not a good thing for her to be in JLD anyways. There are 4 mainstays, Constantine, Zatanna, Deadman and Madame Xanadu. Everyone else would be revolving characters. So if Raven joins JLD, she would be in there for one arc then she is gone. Its not an upgrade.

@Avenging-X-Bolt: I prefer Kara with Dick though. LOL. But this version of Kara is much younger I can see her possibly dating Tim.

#19 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare: I never said I wanted her to join JLD. I don't even read JLD. I just want to see her elevated like she deserves, doesn't matter where so long as it's done well and is respectful to the character. I feel that she's been around long enough, and has the potential to be a real main gun of the DCU, similarly to how Cyborg was elevated past his Teen Titan shackles. But giving her an arc to retell her origins and then stuffing her back on the Titans again most certainly isn't a step in that direction.

#20 Posted by sethysquare (3842 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4: Relax. I never said you wanted her to join JLD. But other than having her own solo and joining Justice League, Teen Titans is the best place to go already. It also seems like her membership isn't limited to Teen Titans. The fact that her story is being seeded in Phantom Stranger, tells me there might be a bigger DCU connection. I would assume the next time Trigon wrecks havoc, it wouldn't be limited to just the Teen Titans. It might crossover into several books with Raven leading the way.

Ofcourse all these are just speculation but it doesn't mean she would only be appearing in Teen Titans and that is it for her.

Beast Boy for instance would be involved in rotworld despite being in Ravagers. Besides DC has been trying to get their titles to inter connect with each other. I rather have Raven in Teen Titans in the mean time than wait 4 years for the trigon story to appear.

#21 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare: I'm just saying that DC really sounds all over the place when they end up contradicting themselves like that. "She's not going to be in teen titans because we have bigger plans for her." ... "oh by the way, she's going to be joining the titans now." I mean, even if they do have it all planned out, they could at least try to sound like they know what they're doing.

Then there's also my confliction of not wanting to buy TT, since I haven't been able to stand it at all. But with Raven going to join them again, it means I'm going to have to buy it in order to actually follow my second favorite character... which will probably keep me from fully enjoying her, since I strongly dislike the current team/run of Teen Titans.

#22 Posted by sethysquare (3842 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4: I suggest you should not buy it then. Buy books that you would enjoy reading.

#23 Edited by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare: *sigh* I know I shouldn't, but there are some characters I'll follow no matter what crappy books I have to suffer through (especially when their appearances are limited as it is. It's not like Batman, where you can choose between 5+ different monthly appearances to read). Raven happens to be one of them.

#24 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

Good News.

#25 Posted by DarkShadows (741 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4: I know how you feel about following your favorite characters, no matter how bad the book is.

@ReVamp: Well, it's too late to change the title but it is still certainly not good news to me.

#26 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkShadows:Its much better than her being sidelined to me, which is what's happening to a bunch of my favorite characters. I understand the concern, and the TT may be a bit of a let down when compared to "something" bigger, but the TT is where her character was developed. I'd much rather her stay there, than suddenly never have been part of the Titans anymore, rendering all the time I dedicated to the character null.

#27 Posted by sethysquare (3842 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Teen Titans is actually one of the better books out there and Raven fans should feel lucky she is in Teen Titans. Raven has never been written well for the past 10-20 years. She is the most boring one dimensional character ever. The only time she shined was in Teen Titans cartoon, she was absolutely brilliant in the animations. The comics was horrible. I know I'm not the only person who feels that way. Considering Scott has a great history of making one dimensional characters rich and fluid, I'm confident she would be a good addition. If Scott isn't the one headlining her return, I believe she would still go back to that one dimensional character pre flashpoint that does nothing but teleports people around and lead beast boy on. If thats the case I rather she stay in comic book limbo together with Wally and Donna.

#28 Posted by Outside_85 (10240 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: It's also where she never moved on from.

@sethysquare: Well, you know, some of us consider the current TT horrible pile of crap and is nothing less than an insult to the name of the team and the characters in it.

But yes, what a crappy news flash...

#29 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85: Considering there's bound to be plenty retcons, it doesn't mean much, really.

#30 Posted by Madame_Mist (1325 posts) - - Show Bio

On the bright side, at least she is in the New 52.

#31 Posted by sethysquare (3842 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85: Well, agree to disagree. I know some of us hates Wonder Wonder and consider that horrible pile of crap and is nothing less than an insult to the character.

#32 Posted by Beast_in_the_Shadows (426 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare:

If you think Raven has always been boring, bland and two-dimensional then I don't think you can really speak for what Raven fans can feel lucky for. As for Lobdell's skill for broadening 2D characters, I haven't really seen any evidence of that in TT. I'm not familiar with his other stuff, so maybe he is really good at writing for book with one central character, but he is a terrible pick for a team title. Every single character talks exactly the same. If you took away the pictures, you'd never be able to distinguish which character is talking. In good TT stories, in good X-men stories each character has their own distinct voice and style so it is obvious just by reading a quote who said it. In his TT the only character whose line are distinguishable without a picture are Skitter's when she is in her bug form and only hisses.

I am very disappointed to hear this news. The only saving grace i had when i found TT unreadable for my tastes, was that the only character I was remotely interested in was Solstice and since she was so new, I was willing to let her go and be ruined. Now Lobdell has his hands on the best female character in comics (my opinion, of course) and that will be incredibly painful to see happen.

#33 Posted by sethysquare (3842 posts) - - Show Bio

@Beast_in_the_Shadows said:

@sethysquare:

If you think Raven has always been boring, bland and two-dimensional then I don't think you can really speak for what Raven fans can feel lucky for. As for Lobdell's skill for broadening 2D characters, I haven't really seen any evidence of that in TT. I'm not familiar with his other stuff, so maybe he is really good at writing for book with one central character, but he is a terrible pick for a team title. Every single character talks exactly the same. If you took away the pictures, you'd never be able to distinguish which character is talking. In good TT stories, in good X-men stories each character has their own distinct voice and style so it is obvious just by reading a quote who said it. In his TT the only character whose line are distinguishable without a picture are Skitter's when she is in her bug form and only hisses.

I am very disappointed to hear this news. The only saving grace i had when i found TT unreadable for my tastes, was that the only character I was remotely interested in was Solstice and since she was so new, I was willing to let her go and be ruined. Now Lobdell has his hands on the best female character in comics (my opinion, of course) and that will be incredibly painful to see happen.

Really?

Do you think that Wondergirl talks like Solstice?

Wondergirl who is badass, brash and resourceful compared to solstice who is easy going yet profound?

Bunker who is crazy, over the top, jovial character compared to Red Robin who is very brave, techy and natural leader?

Also Superboy whose character is one of a few months old child with all the knowledge provided. Fearless, lack of a clear sense of morality and very similar to what an acual clone would be like compared to KIDFLASH who never slows down and speaks 100 words in a second, yet loyal and just.

Starfire who is sensual, attractive, little regards for human (a very emma frost like character but with an alien twist) yet extremely powerful and loyal to those she care about compared to Caitlin who is nurturing, protective, strong, capable.

You really think all the characters talk exactly the same?

Does Rose Wilson talk like Solstice?

Does Red Hood talk like Arsenel?

Does Essence talk like Caitlin Fairchild?

#34 Posted by Outside_85 (10240 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare: Fair enough. But can we agree that 30 years on the same team, no true periods of being elsewhere other than in limbo, hasn't exactely done her any favors?

@ReVamp:Well, I just hope one drops by before Lobdell gets his claws on her :)

#35 Posted by sethysquare (3842 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85: Well, I do agree that. But I think its largely cos of the way she has been written. I think writers somehow failed to do her any justice and there was no where for her to "graduate" to. Starfire are going all berserk while in Justice League went into a cosmic team. Wally took over Barry. Donna tried her thing in the league. I guess its only fair that Raven joins the Dark universe. Except IMO, I think there isn't enough of an audience or niche market to get a Raven solo going on and would end up similar to Voodoo being cancelled within a few issues. And currently there isn't a place for her in JLD except being a cameo.

If they reduce her age and make her into the girl that found out she had all these powers and running away from her demonic father, I think it would be an interesting angle to go and can fit into Teen Titans very well. Or they can go the animated series way. She could slowly start to build an audience and perhaps if her story is good enough she can potentially spin off into a solo book dealing with magical characters.

#36 Posted by Beast_in_the_Shadows (426 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare: All the characters are drastically and wonderfully different, but my point is that they all still use the same type, style and pattern when speaking in Teen Titans. Maybe what the characters do differentiates them, but I was talking about how they speak and in Teen Titans they all talk the same. Maybe it's gotten better after his first arc, but frankly the first arc was too much for me to even consider looking into again.

Also, like I said, I haven't read any of his other books so I can't speak for Red Hood or Superboy, but Teen Titans has done little to assure me of his skill to write characters with different voices (not opinions or attitudes, voices)

Please understand, I mean no disrespect and I am certainly glad that you like the book. But you come on here and say that raven has never been done well to a bunch of hardcore Raven fans and it demonstrates how far are opinions on what is quality in comics is already drastically different. then you tell those fans that they will like Teen Titans because you do.

You have to understand why few of us (if any) are willing to believe they will like your style of comics if we already disagree so radically about one of our (if not our most) favorite characters.

#37 Posted by Funrush (1369 posts) - - Show Bio

When Lobdell made the announcement, he also mentioned September. I for one, will definitely keep an eye out for the zero issue possibly containing Raven.

#38 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (34979 posts) - - Show Bio

Why is it people moan when shes not on the team then moan when their told she will be?

#39 Posted by TheThe (1759 posts) - - Show Bio

@KnightRise said:

If Raven was in Justice League Dark, I'd be encouraged to buy the title. To me she's way bigger than Zatana or Deadman

#40 Posted by Lvenger (21179 posts) - - Show Bio

Well at least Raven's showing up in the New 52 now. That's good isn't it?

#41 Posted by KainScion (2969 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: it is a good thing. she has been severly underused. but people like to moan for not having it their way.

on topic, i like her as part of a team. on her own she would sink really fast and get cancelled. i would be pissed if they do the trigon is my father, i turn bad now im good but have to make for being bad shtick. they have done this with her 4-5 times already. do something new dc. but i have faith. although please change the artist.

#42 Posted by Lvenger (21179 posts) - - Show Bio

@KainScion: Well every comic book character is someone's favourite. And not every writer can please the fans with their direction for the character so for plenty of fans it feels like a no win situation.

#43 Posted by Beast_in_the_Shadows (426 posts) - - Show Bio

@KainScion: Hopefully they won't do the "Good Raven/Bad Raven" thing. It's a new universe so maybe once to show that it is still part of her history would be excusable, but no more than that.

Anyway, Phantom Stranger #1 has pretty much confirmed that Trigon is still her father.

#44 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

Well at least Raven's showing up in the New 52 now. That's good isn't it?

It goes back to this:

@Ravager4 said:

@sethysquare: The problem that I think most people have is that, a while back, DC said they had "big plans" for Raven, and fans were excited because it apparently meant that Raven would be moving away from the Teen Titans, which she's kind of always been shackled to, and really getting a chance to shine on her own and move up in relevance and standing in the DCU (It's also important to mention that they said this was the entire reason she hadn't appeared in Teen Titans yet... because these plans were greater than just sticking her on her old team). Apparently, however, those "big plans" that were supposed to move her beyond the Titans and make her more important... involved putting her exactly where she was before. On the Teen Titans. Again. While something might still happen with her in the future, she's starting out back at square one, after already having been claimed to be more important this time around.

Had they not come out and said that they had some big plans or anything with Raven, and that was the reason she hadn't appeared yet, then people wouldn't have thought anything of it. They'd be perfectly fine, mostly, to have Raven back. However, it was the claim that they were doing something bigger with her, only to then reveal that they're actually just sticking her back on Teen Titans again (which they said they weren't doing in the first place) that has fans disgruntled. It feels like an out and out lie. It's not that fans are upset she's reappearing, it's more that they're upset at DC for seemingly leading them on that Raven was going to be somehow elevated in the DCU, only to pull back and go "just kidding." Fans don't like being lied to.

#45 Posted by Twentyfive (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

I have two problems.

  1. Raven is too old. Her and Beast Boy should be in their late teens, if not their early twenties. Cyborg and Nightwing are both in their twenties. If I was in charge of DC, I'd scatter all 5 titans around the DCU. Cyborg in the League, and with his own ongoing, Nightwing with his own, Beast Boy would be older and part of some team, Raven would be in her twenties in the JLD, and Starfire would be doing her thing with the outlaws, since they should be in their early twenties as well.
  2. Supergirl is too strong, and in my opinion, too good of a character to be on the Titans. SHe is probably the strongest Teen character in the DCU right now. Let her have her own series, and have some other character join the titans like Blue Beetle!

Too Bad DC. Another opportunity missed.

#46 Posted by Lvenger (21179 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4: I understand your criticisms. Frankly I'd be irked too if DC weren't truthful about plans with Superman or Batman. But at least Raven isn't on the sidelines like Wally, Cassandra, Donna and countless other fan favourites. Besides no one on here (to the best of my knowledge) is aware of the inner workings of DC comics or any other comic publisher. Things do change at short notice and whilst it's regrettable that the fans aren't informed of those changes, sometimes the publisher slips up.

Also I don't see how Justice League Dark would be a big step up for Raven. Whilst there's Constantine and Zatanna on the team, a lot of the other characters aren't well known and there are other titles that do better when it comes to the mystical side of the DCU. In terms of sales and popularity, Teen Titans (as much as I don't like it) trumps JLD in that area. As such sticking Raven back to her roots in this sort of rebooted universe would make sense from an executive creator standpoint rather than a fan based point of view.

#47 Posted by Outside_85 (10240 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger:

Well, I'd be perfectly wait a little longer for her to appear regularly somewhere else if I could. The thing is that Raven has been a Teen Titan since her creation over 30 years ago, and through those 30 years she hasn't actually been anywhere other than on Teen Titans when she wasn't off in limbo. On top of this, the last decade (since Johns deaged her), being on Teen Titans hasn't been a boon to her, she's there, she survived, she got brothers and a tattoo, but she never progressed as a person like she progressed post Terror of Trigon.

Part of this I attribute to writers after Wolfman left the book really had no idea or desire to move her beyond simply being the team mystic and goth girl of the group. And sadly I fear this is simply a trend that will continue because everyone will either be busy bringing in new characters, focusing on the Bat or Super of the group or simply editorial again twisting the writers arms to pitch into the latest event. (Like if you read John's entire run, you'll probably notice the old NTT vets are just background characters to the Core 4 of YJ...one of the reasons why I find it so odd that Johns claims he loves Cyborg, because he used him for nothing over 50 issues in TT)

#48 Posted by jrock85 (2850 posts) - - Show Bio

I prefer Supergirl ridding solo.

#49 Posted by Outside_85 (10240 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

Also I don't see how Justice League Dark would be a big step up for Raven. Whilst there's Constantine and Zatanna on the team, a lot of the other characters aren't well known and there are other titles that do better when it comes to the mystical side of the DCU. In terms of sales and popularity, Teen Titans (as much as I don't like it) trumps JLD in that area. As such sticking Raven back to her roots in this sort of rebooted universe would make sense from an executive creator standpoint rather than a fan based point of view.

I would consider it a step forwards at least, if it's not a step up, to join the JLD. Partially because of what I mentioned before regarding Raven and her lack of being on other teams, but also because I consider JLD to be the best team book getting put out by DC atm, closely followed by Demon Knights and to me that matters more than getting her on the team that sells best...since Justice League has proved that books can be totally f'ed on just about every level and still sell like a champ, which is why I am glad Johns didn't also profess his love for her and stuck her on that team (where she would most likely end up being the team bus instead of Cyborg).

Added I would have found it really interesting if they had actually stuck her on the Demon Knights book, mainly because I do find the title a bit misleading when there's only 1 demon on the team and he's not even in charge most of the time. But also because of the opportunity the reboot granted to really shake up her backstory to be more than Teen Titans and to potentially make Trigon more than a Titan-exclusive foe that no one else have every heard of (but that's happening anyway's by the looks of it).

Sticking her anywhere else is a tougher sell for me, perhaps Stormwatch...but that's heavy into sci-fi so I don't consider that likely.

But after all that is said; yes, putting her on the bigger seller makes sense...if you're an accountant :)

#50 Posted by Lvenger (21179 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85: Fair enough. I'm not a huge Raven fan so all those reasons are valid ones. I wouldn't like to see Raven back in the past though. She wouldn't fit with the Demon Knights crowd IMO. Stormwatch is way too sci-fi for Raven, I've read a few issues. She would not work there either. And I am a fan of Johns on Justice League. Well at least recently. The Villains' Journey is way better in terms of story and characterization than the last 8 issues. Plus it's fun to read.

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