vs Daken

#1 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio

I know next to nothing about Frank Castle, aside from his origin and his encounters with people such as Daredevil and Steve Rogers. I was reading his encounters with Daken and, during their second battle, he came pretty flipping close to killing Daken. From the description, it sounded really brutal and visceral. 
 
Has anyone got any scans or any other info that wasn't mentioned in the biography? What about your own opinions on the fight?

#2 Posted by Bionder (296 posts) - - Show Bio

Well about the fight, imo it was clearly to promote Daken. Frank was wounded by the previous fights against the Hood and it were not a good time to fight against Daken. Before the fight he broke his leg escaping from Osborn troops, more conditioned than this i dont know but it could be worse, maybe he could begin the fight without an arm or something. But it was a good effort from Frank besides not be in good health conditions he gave several blows to Daken and in the end got one arm chopped off and his throat seriously injured. It was a fight he couldn't win. The second fight Frank was on the edge and when he was close to throw Daken into the concrete, Wolverine appeared and stopped him.

#3 Posted by CATPANEXE (9368 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually none of that's true. I take it a fanboy told you this? 
 
Punisher Vs Daken 1 = Frank didn't stand a chance, and was chopped to pieces by Daken and died.
Punisher Vs Daken 2 = FrankenCastle, whom was an amped up undead version of Frank with super strength and a healing factor, was then further amped by the Bloodstone, a mystical artifact that increased all attributes, beat Daken pretty handly after a long fight.

#4 Posted by cody1984 (1279 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect said:

I know next to nothing about Frank Castle, aside from his origin and his encounters with people such as Daredevil and Steve Rogers. I was reading his encounters with Daken and, during their second battle, he came pretty flipping close to killing Daken. From the description, it sounded really brutal and visceral. Has anyone got any scans or any other info that wasn't mentioned in the biography? What about your own opinions on the fight?

My opinion on the first fight is that Frank was to wounded physically and mentally from dealing with the Hood and Hammer to beat Daken; I mean christ he burned his family to death after the Hood resurrected them. The Punisher has beat wolverine (spiderman, daredevil, and the hulk at the same time) before so Daken is not something he was unfamiliar with. That's also why he commented about Daken's dad in the sewer as a f*** you to Daken stating he wasn't anything special.

@CATPANEXE said:

Punisher Vs Daken 2 = FrankenCastle, whom was an amped up undead version of Frank with super strength and a healing factor, was then further amped by the Bloodstone, a mystical artifact that increased all attributes, beat Daken pretty handly after a long fight.

In that fight Frank keeps losing his mind having to keep taking his pills. If it was regular Frank he probably would've done a lot better since he wouldn't have relied on brute strength like he did several times during the fight. He would've used his head a lot more in the fight. Which is how the Punisher takes down tough opponents by using his wits and quick improvisation when he has to.

#5 Edited by Bionder (296 posts) - - Show Bio

 
 

@CATPANEXE

said:

Actually none of that's true. I take it a fanboy told you this?
 
Punisher Vs Daken 1 = Frank didn't stand a chance, and was chopped to pieces by Daken and died.
Punisher Vs Daken 2 = FrankenCastle, whom was an amped up undead version of Frank with super strength and a healing factor, was then further amped by the Bloodstone, a mystical artifact that increased all attributes, beat Daken pretty handly after a long fight.

 
No, i have the books i know what am i saying. You must be some kind of Punisher/FrankenCastle hater no?
 
Punisher Vs Daken 1 = Yes he was injured (go read Dark Reign: The list - Punisher page 3) and fought against Daken if he could stand a chance? You will never know, probably not but he could have escaped.
Punisher Vs Daken 2 =  Yes, it's FrankenCastle sorry for my lack of perfection but i call it Frank. FrankenCastle was amped by bloodstone and he was very close to take Daken down if Wolverine didnt intervene the fight. ( FrankenCastle #19 page 20 ).
#6 Posted by CATPANEXE (9368 posts) - - Show Bio
@Bionder

No, i have the books i know what am i saying.


 
I was adressing the OP, otherwise I would have quoted you.
 

You must be some kind of Punisher/FrankenCastle hater no?


 
Because I admit he lost against Daken? Frank was chopped to pieces and said pieces tossed in a dumpster by Daken, regardless of his injuries, which he has fought through worse, I would kind of call that a loss. If I hated the Punisher and/or FrankenCastle I wouldn't have been reading his books, in fact I'm notorious here for defending the latter form on this site against readers who were turned off by FrankenCastle.
 

Yes, it's FrankenCastle sorry for my lack of perfection but i call it Frank. FrankenCastle was amped by bloodstone and he was very close to take Daken down if Wolverine didnt intervene the fight.


 
again, it wasn't addressed at you. and no, he was amped by being Frankencastle and further amped by the Bloodstone. The bloodstone gives a normal human enough powers to walk all over your high caliber foes without too much of a problem. the point is this wasn't Frank Castle as his average self accomplishing
 

Yes he was injured (go read Dark Reign: The list - Punisher page 3) and fought against Daken if he could stand a chance? You will never know, probably not but he could have escaped.


 
I already did clearly, again, see: chopped to bits and killed by Daken. And I do know, a normal human Frank Castle has no chance of winning a fight Mano-e-mano against Daken much less Wolverine. This is why Punisher uses specific weapons to defeat enhanced opponents, because he himself isn't capable of winning such a fight nor coming out of it alive, regardless of how he's feeling. He got slaughtered and executed, thats what is shown in DR: The List - Punisher. The end result was that regardless of Franks skills, tactics and planning, death at the end of Dakens claws was the end result. Just calling it like I see it (and how it was written), unless your really going to claim that he wasn't torn apart Daken? and if your not then how does your claim that he was maybe capable of matching up against Daken even hold water?
 
@cody1984
see above.
#7 Posted by TheGoldenOne (38849 posts) - - Show Bio
Was Frakencastle retconned?
#8 Posted by Bionder (296 posts) - - Show Bio
@CATPANEXE: 
 I respect your opinion but i don't agree. Im not trying to find excuses to Frank being chopped to pieces. But physically and mentally he was no match. to begin with. Maybe if the circumstances were different like a said previously he could take a stand. That's my opinion.
#9 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@Bionder: @cody1984
 
Thanks for the info guys. I'm seriously considering getting Dark Reign: The List after reading about this.
 
@CATPANEXE: Nah, it was in his comicvine page underneath Major Story Arcs. So I s'pose you could say a fanboy wrote that, hah! I probably wouldn't be able to stand Frankencastle, as he looks like an absolute joke.
#10 Posted by cody1984 (1279 posts) - - Show Bio

@CATPANEXE: My point about the Frankencastle vs Daken fight is that it was different then how Frank would've went up against Daken if he was still normal. That was my sole point with that argument nothing more nothing less. Yes Daken did beat Frank and Osborn won that is very clear with Frank getting killed. Yet I wouldn't go as far as saying Frank would have no chance in a straight heads up fight against Daken although it would be very difficult for him. He has after all beat Spiderman before one on one and has shocked wolverine on several occasions at how good he is one on one as well. I'm not talking about the fights Garth Ennis wrote either.

#11 Posted by cody1984 (1279 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect said:

@Bionder: @cody1984:

Thanks for the info guys. I'm seriously considering getting Dark Reign: The List after reading about this.

You probably would want to pick up The Punisher's Dark Reign run as well since it shows what Frank through in the previous 48 hrs. which sheds quite a bit of light on Frank's condition before the fight.

#12 Posted by danhimself (22578 posts) - - Show Bio

No matter how well Frank came off in their first fight or if he was injured or not....he really had no business going up against Daken....Daken is a highly trained martial artist and basically a more agile Wolverine minus the adamantium....Frank had guns and explosives....maybe if he had the Muramasa blade he might have stood a chance but without it he was swatting a fly...no matter what he did Daken was going to come back and kill him...again he had absolutely no business going into a fight with Daken

#13 Edited by Vance Astro (91262 posts) - - Show Bio

Frank Castle stands no chance against Daken logically.Between his powers and skills.They aren't even close.There were variables in their first fight but Daken should have beaten him easily anyway.He's better in every way by a pretty good margin.to me it just seems like one of those forced rivalries that Marvel creates where one character is clearly not comparable to the other.

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#14 Posted by cody1984 (1279 posts) - - Show Bio

@danhimself said:

No matter how well Frank came off in their first fight or if he was injured or not....he really had no business going up against Daken....

Don't you mean Osborn? Since Frank was going after Osborn and Osborn sent Daken and all of Hammer after Frank since the Hood failed miserably to deal with the Punisher.

Daken is a highly trained martial artist

So is Frank and the martial arts point is really meaningless.

again he had absolutely no business going into a fight with Daken

You mean Osborn.

@Vance Astro said:

Frank Castle stands no chance against Daken logically.

Neither did he against the Hood who is or at least was significantly more powerful then Daken yet he beat his gang and The Hood failed against the Punisher.

Between his powers and skills.They aren't even close.

The Punisher is a lot more skilled than Daken. If Daken didn't have powers he would've died in the sewer when they first fought.

There were variables in their first fight but Daken should have beaten him easily anyway.

Even with Frank injured he didn't beat him easily.

He's better in every way by a pretty good margin.

He's cocky and very arrogant two weakness Frank doesn't have. Daken also hasn't shown the prep skills Frank has.

#15 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
Frank Castle stands no chance against Daken logically.Between his powers and skills.They aren't even close.There were variables in their first fight but Daken should have beaten him easily anyway.He's better in every way by a pretty good margin.to me it just seems like one of those forced rivalries that Marvel creates where one character is clearly not comparable to the other.
Exactly. Even though I prefer the Punisher 1000 times over to Daken, he never stood a chance. I had no problem with the List in terms of that battle's outcome. 
#16 Posted by Vance Astro (91262 posts) - - Show Bio
@cody1984 said:

@danhimself said:

No matter how well Frank came off in their first fight or if he was injured or not....he really had no business going up against Daken....

Don't you mean Osborn? Since Frank was going after Osborn and Osborn sent Daken and all of Hammer after Frank since the Hood failed miserably to deal with the Punisher.

Daken is a highly trained martial artist

So is Frank and the martial arts point is really meaningless.

again he had absolutely no business going into a fight with Daken

You mean Osborn.

@Vance Astro said:

Frank Castle stands no chance against Daken logically.

Neither did he against the Hood who is or at least was significantly more powerful then Daken yet he beat his gang and The Hood failed against the Punisher.

Between his powers and skills.They aren't even close.

The Punisher is a lot more skilled than Daken. If Daken didn't have powers he would've died in the sewer when they first fought.

There were variables in their first fight but Daken should have beaten him easily anyway.

Even with Frank injured he didn't beat him easily.

He's better in every way by a pretty good margin.

He's cocky and very arrogant two weakness Frank doesn't have. Daken also hasn't shown the prep skills Frank has.

 
Even if we pretend that The Punisher is more skilled than Daken (which he's not), The Punisher has no way of actually putting Daken down.His durability is far beyond anything the Punisher can dish out. 
 
LOL @ the cocky & arrogant comment as well as the one about prep.
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#17 Edited by Bionder (296 posts) - - Show Bio
@danhimself:
In fact Frank didn't have any chance besides fighting for survive, Osborn send Daken after him.
 
@Vance Astro:
Sometimes "luck" or the element of surprise stands above "logical" and in comics we have many examples of that. Frank uses that a lot.
#18 Edited by Vance Astro (91262 posts) - - Show Bio
@Bionder said:

@Vance Astro: Sometimes "luck" stands above "logical" and in comics we have many examples of that.

Yea but most times it doesn't.
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#19 Posted by cody1984 (1279 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@cody1984 said:

@danhimself said:

No matter how well Frank came off in their first fight or if he was injured or not....he really had no business going up against Daken....

Don't you mean Osborn? Since Frank was going after Osborn and Osborn sent Daken and all of Hammer after Frank since the Hood failed miserably to deal with the Punisher.

Daken is a highly trained martial artist

So is Frank and the martial arts point is really meaningless.

again he had absolutely no business going into a fight with Daken

You mean Osborn.

@Vance Astro said:

Frank Castle stands no chance against Daken logically.

Neither did he against the Hood who is or at least was significantly more powerful then Daken yet he beat his gang and The Hood failed against the Punisher.

Between his powers and skills.They aren't even close.

The Punisher is a lot more skilled than Daken. If Daken didn't have powers he would've died in the sewer when they first fought.

There were variables in their first fight but Daken should have beaten him easily anyway.

Even with Frank injured he didn't beat him easily.

He's better in every way by a pretty good margin.

He's cocky and very arrogant two weakness Frank doesn't have. Daken also hasn't shown the prep skills Frank has.

Even if we pretend that The Punisher is more skilled than Daken (which he's not),

I have yet to see how Daken is actually skilled other than knowing some martial arts and being able to start petty rivalries among different characters.

The Punisher has no way of actually putting Daken down.

Essentially that is the whole argument. How much damage (and what kind) the Punisher dishes out vs Daken's healing factor.

His durability is far beyond anything the Punisher can dish out.
LOL @ the cocky & arrogant comment as well as the one about prep.

I haven't seen anything from Daken that proves otherwise.

#20 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29501 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheGoldenOne said:
Was Frakencastle retconned?
It still happened. The bloodstone healed Frank up. No one talks about it anymore though. (The same way no one talks about Angel-Punisher). 
#21 Edited by InnerVenom123 (29501 posts) - - Show Bio
@cody1984: Stop it. Just stop it. The Punisher is not going to have a nuclear warhead on him when he fights Daken in the streets on the run from H.A.M.M.E.R. 
#22 Edited by Bionder (296 posts) - - Show Bio
@InnerVenom123: Of course not, but you guys are thinking too logically. And Frank's most of the times defies logic and they are not expecting. He do things that are not expected.
#23 Posted by Vance Astro (91262 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
@Vance Astro said:
Frank Castle stands no chance against Daken logically.Between his powers and skills.They aren't even close.There were variables in their first fight but Daken should have beaten him easily anyway.He's better in every way by a pretty good margin.to me it just seems like one of those forced rivalries that Marvel creates where one character is clearly not comparable to the other.
Exactly. Even though I prefer the Punisher 1000 times over to Daken, he never stood a chance. I had no problem with the List in terms of that battle's outcome. 
I agree.The Punisher alot better as a character than Daken.
Moderator
#24 Posted by Vance Astro (91262 posts) - - Show Bio
@cody1984 said:

I have yet to see how Daken is actually skilled other than knowing some martial arts and being able to start petty rivalries among different characters.

That's your issue.
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#25 Posted by cody1984 (1279 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@cody1984 said:

I have yet to see how Daken is actually skilled other than knowing some martial arts and being able to start petty rivalries among different characters.

That's your issue.

My issue is I haven't seen any proof until I see otherwise Daken is not as skilled as Frank Castle.

#26 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29501 posts) - - Show Bio
@cody1984 said:

@Vance Astro said:

@cody1984 said:

I have yet to see how Daken is actually skilled other than knowing some martial arts and being able to start petty rivalries among different characters.

That's your issue.

My issue is I haven't seen any proof until I see otherwise Daken is not as skilled as Frank Castle.

#27 Posted by cody1984 (1279 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123 said:

@cody1984: Stop it. Just stop it. The Punisher is not going to have a nuclear warhead on him when he fights Daken in the streets on the run from H.A.M.M.E.R.

Hey, I'm just showing the type of weapons Frank has had before and what kind of damage he can cause if he has them.

#28 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29501 posts) - - Show Bio
@cody1984 said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

@cody1984: Stop it. Just stop it. The Punisher is not going to have a nuclear warhead on him when he fights Daken in the streets on the run from H.A.M.M.E.R.

Hey, I'm just showing the type of weapons Frank has had before and what kind of damage he can cause if he has them.

So, you honestly think that Daken is going to fight Frank, and then Frank is going to just take out a nuclear missile? That was a once-in-a-lifetime situation. It's never going to happen again, most likely. 
#29 Posted by cody1984 (1279 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123 said:

@cody1984 said:

@Vance Astro said:

@cody1984 said:

I have yet to see how Daken is actually skilled other than knowing some martial arts and being able to start petty rivalries among different characters.

That's your issue.

My issue is I haven't seen any proof until I see otherwise Daken is not as skilled as Frank Castle.

All that proves is Daken is a bullet sponge nothing more nothing less.

#30 Posted by Vance Astro (91262 posts) - - Show Bio
@cody1984 said:

@Vance Astro said:

@cody1984 said:

I have yet to see how Daken is actually skilled other than knowing some martial arts and being able to start petty rivalries among different characters.

That's your issue.

My issue is I haven't seen any proof until I see otherwise Daken is not as skilled as Frank Castle.

Have you been reading books that Daken has appeared in or are you basing this off of books where he rarely did anything like Dark Avengers?
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#31 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29501 posts) - - Show Bio
@cody1984 said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

@cody1984 said:

@Vance Astro said:

@cody1984 said:

I have yet to see how Daken is actually skilled other than knowing some martial arts and being able to start petty rivalries among different characters.

That's your issue.

My issue is I haven't seen any proof until I see otherwise Daken is not as skilled as Frank Castle.

All that proves is Daken is a bullet sponge nothing more nothing less.

...... 
 
 *Leaves thread*
#32 Posted by cody1984 (1279 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123 said:

@cody1984 said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

@cody1984: Stop it. Just stop it. The Punisher is not going to have a nuclear warhead on him when he fights Daken in the streets on the run from H.A.M.M.E.R.

Hey, I'm just showing the type of weapons Frank has had before and what kind of damage he can cause if he has them.

So, you honestly think that Daken is going to fight Frank, and then Frank is going to just take out a nuclear missile? That was a once-in-a-lifetime situation. It's never going to happen again, most likely.

No I'm just stating Frank's had the toys in past to take out Daken without much difficulty. Him having weapons capable of doing so in the future is very likely.

#33 Posted by Vance Astro (91262 posts) - - Show Bio
@cody1984 said:

No I'm just stating Frank's had the toys in past to take out Daken without much difficulty. Him having weapons capable of doing so in the future is very likely.

 I don't think the question is whether Frank can take Daken out with a plot device or not.That goes without saying.Frank rarely has weapons like that.Which means in most encounters Daken would kill him.
Moderator
#34 Posted by cody1984 (1279 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123 said:

@cody1984 said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

@cody1984 said:

@Vance Astro said:

@cody1984 said:

I have yet to see how Daken is actually skilled other than knowing some martial arts and being able to start petty rivalries among different characters.

That's your issue.

My issue is I haven't seen any proof until I see otherwise Daken is not as skilled as Frank Castle.

All that proves is Daken is a bullet sponge nothing more nothing less.

......

*Leaves thread*

What I stated was 100% true. Daken has healing factor, claws, and some martial arts knowledge he really isn't that skilled. Its his powers that save his ass.

@Vance Astro said:

@cody1984 said:

@Vance Astro said:

@cody1984 said:

I have yet to see how Daken is actually skilled other than knowing some martial arts and being able to start petty rivalries among different characters.

That's your issue.

My issue is I haven't seen any proof until I see otherwise Daken is not as skilled as Frank Castle.

Have you been reading books that Daken has appeared in or are you basing this off of books where he rarely did anything like Dark Avengers?

I have read some of his issues on Marvel's digital comics before and after hooking up with the dark avengers and I'm really unimpressed.

#35 Posted by Bionder (296 posts) - - Show Bio

Sometimes i think that some people don't know the character at all. At this moment this thread don't go anywhere.

#36 Posted by Vance Astro (91262 posts) - - Show Bio
@cody1984 said:

I have read some of his issues on Marvel's digital comics before and after hooking up with the dark avengers and I'm really unimpressed.

But you're impressed with what The Punisher has done when it's significantly less? I don't get it.
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#37 Posted by cody1984 (1279 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@cody1984 said:

No I'm just stating Frank's had the toys in past to take out Daken without much difficulty. Him having weapons capable of doing so in the future is very likely.

I don't think the question is whether Frank can take Daken out with a plot device or not.That goes without saying.Frank rarely has weapons like that.Which means in most encounters Daken would kill him.

I doubt that since Daken abmushed Frank when he was trying to evade hammer in the sewers. I'm not saying Frank would waste him but I highly doubt Daken would be able to put him down. Since Frank's whole death was a plot device for Remender to recreate Frank to resemble the munsters.

#38 Posted by Vance Astro (91262 posts) - - Show Bio
@cody1984 said:

@Vance Astro said:

@cody1984 said:

No I'm just stating Frank's had the toys in past to take out Daken without much difficulty. Him having weapons capable of doing so in the future is very likely.

I don't think the question is whether Frank can take Daken out with a plot device or not.That goes without saying.Frank rarely has weapons like that.Which means in most encounters Daken would kill him.

I doubt that since Daken abmushed Frank when he was trying to evade hammer in the sewers. I'm not saying Frank would waste him but I highly doubt Daken would be able to put him down. Since Frank's whole death was a plot device for Remender to recreate Frank to resemble the munsters

You know what..I'm done.
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#39 Posted by cody1984 (1279 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@cody1984 said:

I have read some of his issues on Marvel's digital comics before and after hooking up with the dark avengers and I'm really unimpressed.

But you're impressed with what The Punisher has done when it's significantly less? I don't get it.

I'm not seeing what Daken did that was significant at all. He has a rivalry (or at least he did) with his old man, is or at least was an enemy of the X-Men (how many of them have they had over the years?) got hospitalized by the Thing, punked by Hawkeye, he really hasn't contributed much of anything. Besides killing the Punisher when his wounded with massive help and stalemating Gambit (I believe it was him) he hasn't done anything significant at least not without help.

#40 Posted by Vance Astro (91262 posts) - - Show Bio
@cody1984 said:

@Vance Astro said:

@cody1984 said:

I have read some of his issues on Marvel's digital comics before and after hooking up with the dark avengers and I'm really unimpressed.

But you're impressed with what The Punisher has done when it's significantly less? I don't get it.

I'm not seeing what Daken did that was significant at all. He has a rivalry (or at least he did) with his old man, is or at least was an enemy of the X-Men (how many of them have they had over the years?) got hospitalized by the Thing, punked by Hawkeye, he really hasn't contributed much of anything. Besides killing the Punisher when his wounded with massive help and stalemating Gambit (I believe it was him) he hasn't done anything significant at least not without help.

@Vance Astro said:
You know what..I'm done.
Moderator
#41 Edited by cody1984 (1279 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@cody1984 said:

@Vance Astro said:

@cody1984 said:

I have read some of his issues on Marvel's digital comics before and after hooking up with the dark avengers and I'm really unimpressed.

But you're impressed with what The Punisher has done when it's significantly less? I don't get it.

I'm not seeing what Daken did that was significant at all. He has a rivalry (or at least he did) with his old man, is or at least was an enemy of the X-Men (how many of them have they had over the years?) got hospitalized by the Thing, punked by Hawkeye, he really hasn't contributed much of anything. Besides killing the Punisher when his wounded with massive help and stalemating Gambit (I believe it was him) he hasn't done anything significant at least not without help.

@Vance Astro said:
You know what..I'm done.

You do realize some of us get up to to do things while on the internet right? My comment wasn't to goad you I was replying to your previous comment after I got up went to the bathroom took a piss and came back. Anyway, this is my last response to you on this topic.

#42 Posted by Vance Astro (91262 posts) - - Show Bio
@cody1984 said:

You do realize some of us get up to to do things while on the internet right? My comment wasn't to goad you I was replying to your previous comment after I got up went to the bathroom took a piss and came back. Anyway, this is my last response to you on this topic.

You didn't really have to say this.Done means done.I don't care what you got up to do.
Moderator
#43 Posted by Postacrat (496 posts) - - Show Bio

@cody1984 said:

@Vance Astro said:

@cody1984 said:

@Vance Astro said:

@cody1984 said:

I have read some of his issues on Marvel's digital comics before and after hooking up with the dark avengers and I'm really unimpressed.

But you're impressed with what The Punisher has done when it's significantly less? I don't get it.

I'm not seeing what Daken did that was significant at all. He has a rivalry (or at least he did) with his old man, is or at least was an enemy of the X-Men (how many of them have they had over the years?) got hospitalized by the Thing, punked by Hawkeye, he really hasn't contributed much of anything. Besides killing the Punisher when his wounded with massive help and stalemating Gambit (I believe it was him) he hasn't done anything significant at least not without help.

@Vance Astro said:
You know what..I'm done.

You do realize some of us get up to to do things while on the internet right? My comment wasn't to goad you I was replying to your previous comment after I got up went to the bathroom took a piss and came back. Anyway, this is my last response to you on this topic.

I've followed Daken since day one, and I know for a fact that he's done more than what your pointing out. I can easily point out a few things that put him above Frank Castle if you would like. Please take no offesnse you are entitled to your opinion and view, it just seems to me either you do not know enough about the character or you just plain don't like him. Look at it like this for a moment, Daken killing the punisher does not make Frank less skilled. In fact how long he was able to keep a being with a healing factor and claws occupied is a testament to Franks cunning and excellent planning. Even if Daken was a B lister his powers are more than enough to kill Frank, Frank Castle is a human being with no powers what so ever he is just highly skilled in Military and Gorilla Warfare nothing more. Now that is not to downplay how dangerous a vigilante Frank Castle is, personally I feel he's even deadlier when his back is against the wall. However what went down between Frank Castle and Daken was exactly how it should have went, Castle put up a good fight and died a warriors death. Weapons and planning Vs Claws, healing Factor, 60 years of training, Pheremones, superhuman reflexes and Agility etc. If anything I feel Daken was portrayed missing a few of his finer skills in that fight. The better man won, now I can elaborate my views to better suit my point but that's only if your interested after all this is an old thread.

#44 Posted by cody1984 (1279 posts) - - Show Bio
@Postacrat said: 


I've followed Daken since day one, and I know for a fact that he's done more than what your pointing out. I can easily point out a few things that put him above Frank Castle if you would like. Please take no offesnse you are entitled to your opinion and view, it just seems to me either you do not know enough about the character or you just plain don't like him. 

Again, I'm going by what I've seen from Daken and what I've seen from the Punisher and Daken doesn't impress me at all.  I don't care for the character that is true but I don't care for the silver surfer either yet I won't try and say Frank Castle can beat him since he won't if they fought.  I'm going by what I've seen Daken do and isn't much and nothing above Frank's skill.  I think people on here confuse skill and powers which are two different things.  

Look at it like this for a moment, Daken killing the punisher does not make Frank less skilled. In fact how long he was able to keep a being with a healing factor and claws occupied is a testament to Franks cunning and excellent planning.

It's wasn't planning but improvisation since Daken got the jump on the Punisher.   


Even if Daken was a B lister his powers are more than enough to kill Frank, Frank Castle is a human being with no powers what so ever he is just highly skilled in Military and Gorilla Warfare nothing more.  

People on here seriously underestimate the Punisher because he doesn't have powers.  Daken has a healing factor and claws but Daken isn't his old man with unbreakable bones so Daken is not unkillable.  

 Now that is not to downplay how dangerous a vigilante Frank Castle is, personally I feel he's even deadlier when his back is against the wall. However what went down between Frank Castle and Daken was exactly how it should have went, Castle put up a good fight and died a warriors death.  

I'm not arguing this.  I'm arguing the fact that  A. The Punisher was wounded fighting the Hood and beating him before Hammer tried to kill him and was further wounded by Hammer before he fought Daken. 
B. Daken got the drop on the Punisher since Frank Castle didn't know Daken was coming after him. 
C. For argument's sake even if the Punisher killed Daken he would've died on the roof top by all the Hammer agents Osborn sent (which was all of them).

  

Weapons and planning Vs Claws, healing Factor, 60 years of training, Pheremones, superhuman reflexes and Agility etc.  

The Punisher has had weapons before capable of easily killing Daken.  He doesn't have them all the time though that is true.  However if Frank was trying to kill Daken again and not as a Frankenstein knock off he would've gotten better weaponry to do the job.  

I can elaborate my views to better suit my point but that's only if your interested after all this is an old thread.

Not really since it's an old thread and the whole Frankencastle story is going to be treated like Punisher Purgatory since it wasn't exactly...loved and never be mentioned so we aren't going to see Daken and the Punisher fight in the future...at least anytime soon and if they do the fights they had before could very well not get mentioned at all.  
#45 Posted by Vance Astro (91262 posts) - - Show Bio
@danhimself said:
No matter how well Frank came off in their first fight or if he was injured or not....he really had no business going up against Daken....Daken is a highly trained martial artist and basically a more agile Wolverine minus the adamantium....Frank had guns and explosives....maybe if he had the Muramasa blade he might have stood a chance but without it he was swatting a fly...no matter what he did Daken was going to come back and kill him...again he had absolutely no business going into a fight with Daken
 
@FadeToBlackBolt
said:
@Vance Astro said:
Frank Castle stands no chance against Daken logically.Between his powers and skills.They aren't even close.There were variables in their first fight but Daken should have beaten him easily anyway.He's better in every way by a pretty good margin.to me it just seems like one of those forced rivalries that Marvel creates where one character is clearly not comparable to the other.
Exactly. Even though I prefer the Punisher 1000 times over to Daken, he never stood a chance. I had no problem with the List in terms of that battle's outcome. 

Moderator
#46 Posted by Postacrat (496 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@danhimself said:
No matter how well Frank came off in their first fight or if he was injured or not....he really had no business going up against Daken....Daken is a highly trained martial artist and basically a more agile Wolverine minus the adamantium....Frank had guns and explosives....maybe if he had the Muramasa blade he might have stood a chance but without it he was swatting a fly...no matter what he did Daken was going to come back and kill him...again he had absolutely no business going into a fight with Daken
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
@Vance Astro said:
Frank Castle stands no chance against Daken logically.Between his powers and skills.They aren't even close.There were variables in their first fight but Daken should have beaten him easily anyway.He's better in every way by a pretty good margin.to me it just seems like one of those forced rivalries that Marvel creates where one character is clearly not comparable to the other.
Exactly. Even though I prefer the Punisher 1000 times over to Daken, he never stood a chance. I had no problem with the List in terms of that battle's outcome.

I totally agree with this. I think some arguments against Daken are based solely off of character preference. Some comic book readers have a dislike for Daken as a character that is evident, however that does not change the fact that anybody who has truly followed Daken would know that his fewer feats far surpass Frank Castle's. Beating Deadpool as well as besting his father, taking on Cyber, battling Skaar, surviving an attack by the Thing when Frank would have been very dead behind one hit. Honestly I think Daken was the one who was downplayed in that fight, he showed none of his Agility, little or no pheremone usage, none of the same martial arts prowess he used against Deadpool or his father and he beat these guys while barely using his claws to do it. He should have been flipping around cutting away the punisher piece by piece, he never once used his ability to stay inside an opponents blindspot. It's really plain to see that Daken was playing a game of cat and mouse with Frank, and Castle could do little more than slow him down. He fought hard and died a warriors death!

#47 Edited by Vance Astro (91262 posts) - - Show Bio
@Postacrat said:

I totally agree with this. I think some arguments against Daken are based solely off of character preference. Some comic book readers have a dislike for Daken as a character that is evident, however that does not change the fact that anybody who has truly followed Daken would know that his fewer feats far surpass Frank Castle's. Beating Deadpool as well as besting his father, taking on Cyber, battling Skaar, surviving an attack by the Thing when Frank would have been very dead behind one hit. Honestly I think Daken was the one who was downplayed in that fight, he showed none of his Agility, little or no pheremone usage, none of the same martial arts prowess he used against Deadpool or his father and he beat these guys while barely using his claws to do it. He should have been flipping around cutting away the punisher piece by piece, he never once used his ability to stay inside an opponents blindspot. It's really plain to see that Daken was playing a game of cat and mouse with Frank, and Castle could do little more than slow him down. He fought hard and died a warriors death!

Daken's hand to hand feats far surpass that of The Punisher.Anyone who says otherwise either likes Punisher more,doesn't have the reference material to actually know what their talking about,or they are just arguing to be arguing.
Moderator
#48 Posted by cody1984 (1279 posts) - - Show Bio
 Postacrat said: 

 I totally agree with this. I think some arguments against Daken are based solely off of character preference.  

 Some are however this isn't.  

Some comic book readers have a dislike for Daken as a character that is evident, however that does not change the fact that anybody who has truly followed Daken would know that his fewer feats far surpass Frank Castle's.

You don't follow the Punisher at all if your going to try and go down this road.   

Beating Deadpool as well as besting his father,  

Punisher has beat wolverine before and rather badly. 
  

 taking on Cyber, battling Skaar,  

The Punisher killed the Russian who beat the hell out spiderman (the Punisher has also beaten Spiderman before) and has defeated the Hulk before in the confederacy of dunces story arc. He also smacked the Hood's gang around by himself and beat the Hood.  The Hood who is significantly more powerful (or at least was) then Daken.     
 

surviving an attack by the Thing when Frank would have been very dead behind one hit.  

That's because of his healing factor and it's not much to brag about either since the thing hospitalized him even with the healing factor.  

Honestly I think Daken was the one who was downplayed in that fight, he showed none of his Agility,  

He dodged frank shooting him at and Daken gotten beaten up easily in Dark Reign by a bunch of characters the Punisher would've killed with ease which Norman Osborn mocked him for repeatedly.   
 

none of the same martial arts prowess he used against Deadpool or his father and he beat these guys while barely using his claws to do it. 

    
  

He should have been flipping around cutting away the punisher piece by piece, he never once used his ability to stay inside an opponents blindspot. 
 

You obviously never read a Punisher comic.  

It's really plain to see that Daken was playing a game of cat and mouse with Frank,  

It looked like the Punisher layed him on his ass in the sewer without much difficulty.  
  

He fought hard and died a warriors death!

He died to because he was to injured from fighting the Hood and his minions when Hammer attacked him and Daken encountered him in the sewer.    
 
 
 
Anyway this is my last post in this topic because people in here are using the rather dumb Punisher should lose argument against characters with superpowers since he's "just a guy with guns" argument and haven't read any Punisher comics before and know what Frank is actually capable of.  
#49 Posted by Postacrat (496 posts) - - Show Bio
Postacrat said:
@Vance Astro said:
@Postacrat said:

I totally agree with this. I think some arguments against Daken are based solely off of character preference. Some comic book readers have a dislike for Daken as a character that is evident, however that does not change the fact that anybody who has truly followed Daken would know that his fewer feats far surpass Frank Castle's. Beating Deadpool as well as besting his father, taking on Cyber, battling Skaar, surviving an attack by the Thing when Frank would have been very dead behind one hit. Honestly I think Daken was the one who was downplayed in that fight, he showed none of his Agility, little or no pheremone usage, none of the same martial arts prowess he used against Deadpool or his father and he beat these guys while barely using his claws to do it. He should have been flipping around cutting away the punisher piece by piece, he never once used his ability to stay inside an opponents blindspot. It's really plain to see that Daken was playing a game of cat and mouse with Frank, and Castle could do little more than slow him down. He fought hard and died a warriors death!

Daken's hand to hand feats far surpass that of The Punisher.Anyone who says otherwise either likes Punisher more,doesn't have the reference material to actually know what their talking about,or they are just arguing to be arguing.
Pretty Much

@cody1984: Actually I've been reading the Punisher since 1985 at age 4, I was an advanced child and Frank was some of my first reading material. I would sneak into my big cousin's room and snatch his issues so I could have something to read, and the character just stuck to me. I am actually a Punisher fan my friend and probably know more about him than you.
Your scan's just perpetuate the point everyone here has been making, at best the Punisher can only slow these guys down and run away to fight another day wounded at that. I'm not downplaying the Punisher, I actually praised his skill and cunning in my first comment. Frank is not some "Dumb Guy with Guns", his planning ahead and his ability to think on his feet are an excellent advantage for him. However if Logan really wanted to kill the Punisher, he would plain and simple. The Punisher is always trying to kill, whenever he lifts his gun he shoots. As far as killing Logan/Daken goes his gun's have done little more than slow them down and frustrate them for a moment long enough for him to get away. Never once has someone in the Wolverine family tried to all out kill Frank, and when one decided to what happened? Frank beating the Russian again using weapon's and planning is not a great feat over Cyber as an adversary, Daken or wolverine could easily beat the Russian he is a joke. Frank struggled with deadpool when Daken made him bleed out easily. The ultimate point is Frank Castle is an olympic level athlete with a great deal of military training in Gorilla Warfare tactics, even with all the training in the world the end is inevitable. The only reason why he lasted as long as he did in either confrontation between wolverine or Daken is because he ambushes them to get the upperhand. Ambushing is not a battle, and someone who has the skill and abilities needed to best someone head on has no use for it. Frank know's he can't take either of these guy's without getting the jump on them first. A battle is when two opponents meet in combat and one best's the other, it is not combat when you run someone over with a Concrete roller just to keep them down long enough to run away.
#50 Posted by pjcooper1986 (35 posts) - - Show Bio

@cody1984: yes this is true but spidey was up against the russian who had cybernetic implants at th time so he had superhuman strength so that dont really count as a feat against spiderman

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