Every character has some story in their past where you're like wtf? Frank is no exception. Over the past couple years I've worried about them updating his origin to the war in Iraq. From what I've read on both the Iraq war and Vietnam I think the Iraq soldiers are too soft to believe one of them could be capable of doing what Castle has done. New York is more so a jungle than a desert. And those issues that actually put Frank back in the jungle are good times!!

Every character has some story in their past where you're like wtf? Frank is no exception. 

@Vance Astro: Besides that part when Frank is manipulated by a stupid machine created by Hate-Monger and kills Stuart's girlfriend it was not bad.

@9th Wonder said:

I'm not stating that Garth Ennis is a bad writer as a fact.

You stated "he sucks" meaning that he is a bad writer. Stop contradicting yourself because it makes you look dumb. Either say he sucks as a writer or just say you don't like his writing. Don't state "he sucks" then go "well I don't mean he is a bad writer" just say what you mean.

I've read stuff that he's written that shows blatant disrespect and lack of knowledge of certain characters.

He admits to having a blatant disdain for superheroes. If you gave him the x-men to write and told Garth Ennis he could do whatever he wanted with it he would make asses out of the entire team. Why? Because he thinks superheroes are stupid and he can't take them seriously and he shows that through his writing. I really don't get how you can repeatedly fail to understand that.

I mentioned Wolverine because his offenses against Wolverine are the worst.

What don't you comprehend about Garth Ennis not liking superheroes?

By breaking it down I mean every time I read your responses there's loads of stuff that I just feel is nonsense.

Everything you wrote was nonsense and you dropped trying to explain something when you couldn't.

You're obviously not going to budge

Not when I'm right.

@Vance Astro said:

Personally I think that the time that the Punisher spent as Captain America and when he became Frankencastle where the most interested I had been in him aside from when he was working with Rampage (Stuart Clark)

Did you even read any of his MAX series? I find what your saying is very hard to believe considering how highly praised the max series is compared to the responses people have over Fraction's series.

I don't think Frankencastle was done (writing wise) as well as it good have been done but overall it was an interesting concept.

It was a cheap gimmick.

Because of the type of character he is I think the arcs that people didn't like where something writers were trying out on their readers because they are at a loss of what to actually do with him at this point.

In other words the writers didn't get the character and derailed the Punisher and that failed. Not once (Punisher joins the mob), not twice (angel punisher), not three times (Punisher as captain america), but four times now (Frankencastle). Causing them to bring in Ennis to fix the first two failures and now Rucka with the last two.

In fact I think if they would have made Frank a little monster team and then made that a book it may have helped sell the concept.

The book was dropping in sales throughout Frankencastle and he was already fighting with monsters so I don't see how that would've boosted the books sales and stopped the Frankencastle series from getting cut shorter than Remender wanted it to be.

@Grim said:

All of marvel should have a "Crisis" and fold all their continuities together...

or better yet, just drop the standard Marvel u and make Ultimate the primary line. Its already far more interesting and there are no crappy concepts like the "ultimate nullifyer" or "Infinity Gauntlets".

Marvel shits all over all their characters. they would make Captain America a rapist tomorrow if they thought it would make a good event. They could make millions of small fixes. But they never will

Agreed.

@Pokeysteve said:

Every character has some story in their past where you're like wtf? Frank is no exception. Over the past couple years I've worried about them updating his origin to the war in Iraq. From what I've read on both the Iraq war and Vietnam I think the Iraq soldiers are too soft to believe one of them could be capable of doing what Castle has done. New York is more so a jungle than a desert. And those issues that actually put Frank back in the jungle are good times!!

Iraq also has baghdad a large city and a lot of urban fighting has happened throughout the war. I don't think changing Frank's history to be an Iraq war veteran would make he seem softer than him being a vietnam veteran. I do want his vietnam origin to stay since it shows Frank being unique fighting is war against crime for several decades now vs just a few years if you changed his origin.

If they change his orgins it would be another failure. I hope not. I remember Rucka talking about that, i don't know what the context he were talking.

@Vance Astro said:

Personally I think that the time that the Punisher spent as Captain America and when he became Frankencastle where the most interested I had been in him aside from when he was working with Rampage (Stuart Clark)

Did you even read any of his MAX series? I find what your saying is very hard to believe considering how highly praised the max series is compared to the responses people have over Fraction's series.

I don't think Frankencastle was done (writing wise) as well as it good have been done but overall it was an interesting concept.

It was a cheap gimmick.

Because of the type of character he is I think the arcs that people didn't like where something writers were trying out on their readers because they are at a loss of what to actually do with him at this point.

In other words the writers didn't get the character and derailed the Punisher and that failed. Not once (Punisher joins the mob), not twice (angel punisher), not three times (Punisher as captain america), but four times now (Frankencastle). Causing them to bring in Ennis to fix the first two failures and now Rucka with the last two.

In fact I think if they would have made Frank a little monster team and then made that a book it may have helped sell the concept.

The book was dropping in sales throughout Frankencastle and he was already fighting with monsters so I don't see how that would've boosted the books sales and stopped the Frankencastle series from getting cut shorter than Remender wanted it to be.

@9th Wonder said:

I'm not stating that Garth Ennis is a bad writer as a fact.

You stated "he sucks" meaning that he is a bad writer. Stop contradicting yourself because it makes you look dumb. Either say he sucks as a writer or just say you don't like his writing. Don't state "he sucks" then go "well I don't mean he is a bad writer" just say what you mean.

I've read stuff that he's written that shows blatant disrespect and lack of knowledge of certain characters.

He admits to having a blatant disdain for superheroes. If you gave him the x-men to write and told Garth Ennis he could do whatever he wanted with it he would make asses out of the entire team. Why? Because he thinks superheroes are stupid and he can't take them seriously and he shows that through his writing. I really don't get how you can repeatedly fail to understand that.

I mentioned Wolverine because his offenses against Wolverine are the worst.

What don't you comprehend about Garth Ennis not liking superheroes?

By breaking it down I mean every time I read your responses there's loads of stuff that I just feel is nonsense.

Everything you wrote was nonsense and you dropped trying to explain something when you couldn't.

You're obviously not going to budge

Not when I'm right.

@Vance Astro said:

@cody1984 said:

@Vance Astro said:

Personally I think that the time that the Punisher spent as Captain America and when he became Frankencastle where the most interested I had been in him aside from when he was working with Rampage (Stuart Clark)

Did you even read any of his MAX series? I find what your saying is very hard to believe considering how highly praised the max series is compared to the responses people have over Fraction's series.

I don't think Frankencastle was done (writing wise) as well as it good have been done but overall it was an interesting concept.

It was a cheap gimmick.

Because of the type of character he is I think the arcs that people didn't like where something writers were trying out on their readers because they are at a loss of what to actually do with him at this point.

In other words the writers didn't get the character and derailed the Punisher and that failed. Not once (Punisher joins the mob), not twice (angel punisher), not three times (Punisher as captain america), but four times now (Frankencastle). Causing them to bring in Ennis to fix the first two failures and now Rucka with the last two.

In fact I think if they would have made Frank a little monster team and then made that a book it may have helped sell the concept.

The book was dropping in sales throughout Frankencastle and he was already fighting with monsters so I don't see how that would've boosted the books sales and stopped the Frankencastle series from getting cut shorter than Remender wanted it to be.

I did read that MAX series. I don't think conceptually it was as interesting as certain arcs in Punisher: War Journal or as the Frankencastle book.The Punisher was definitely bad ass in the book but that's about as far as it goes. As far as story it seemed like a re-run.

I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you about this because I know how you could honestly believe that.

I think the problem with Frankencastle was that people weren't willing to accept change from the start. I remember when it was announced on CV and most people had already assumed they weren't going to like it without giving it a chance.

Turning Frank into a creature has already been tried before so you can't blame people for being negative about that.

Frank fighting monsters as a Frankenstein is different from having a book based on a monster team that he runs.

Problem with this suggestion is we are no longer talking about the Punisher than. If a writer made Frank leader of a monster team the writer just committed character derailment.Even Frankencastle was character derailment.

I bet if they could have tied that into something and gave them a somewhat major role,

Every time they try to get Frank involved majorally in the greater marvel universe it never works right...from him fighting doom to joining the secret avengers it feels completely forced.

they could have gotten people to like the new Frank.

The new Frank would've been a major **** you to the fans of the Punisher.

I don't think that writers "don't get" Frank.

Angel Punisher, Black Punisher, Mafia joining Punisher, and Frankencastle seem to suggest otherwise.

He's not really a complex character. I simply think that his character type doesn't allow for many different story lines,

He's a niche character that is true but their is nothing wrong with that. You don't read the Punisher to see him fighting aliens or reality hoping you read other books for that.

I think Punisher as Captain America was the best part of the Initiative event.

It didn't even have anything to do with the initiative not to mention it was way out of character.

@9th Wonder said:

@cody1984 said:

@9th Wonder said:

I'm not stating that Garth Ennis is a bad writer as a fact.

You stated "he sucks" meaning that he is a bad writer. Stop contradicting yourself because it makes you look dumb. Either say he sucks as a writer or just say you don't like his writing. Don't state "he sucks" then go "well I don't mean he is a bad writer" just say what you mean.

I've read stuff that he's written that shows blatant disrespect and lack of knowledge of certain characters.

He admits to having a blatant disdain for superheroes. If you gave him the x-men to write and told Garth Ennis he could do whatever he wanted with it he would make asses out of the entire team. Why? Because he thinks superheroes are stupid and he can't take them seriously and he shows that through his writing. I really don't get how you can repeatedly fail to understand that.

I mentioned Wolverine because his offenses against Wolverine are the worst.

What don't you comprehend about Garth Ennis not liking superheroes?

By breaking it down I mean every time I read your responses there's loads of stuff that I just feel is nonsense.

Everything you wrote was nonsense and you dropped trying to explain something when you couldn't.

You're obviously not going to budge

Not when I'm right.

I ne xt time you make a thread i'll know not to respond to anything you say because obviously you can't handle opposing opinions. You made a thread and then when someone gives their opinion on the topic you tell them every thing they said was nonsense?

In your case yes you try to make a bunch of nonsense points then claim the ones I made were nonsense while contradicting yourself repeatedly.

Garth Ennis sucks in my opinion.You don't have to like it but you can't tell me what I can and cannot say about him.I never said that "I don't mean he's a bad writer" I said that he's a garbage writer and that I wasn't stating that as fact I was stating it as my opinion.

You can state you don't like Garth Ennis fine but your continued pathetic whining statements that "he sucks but he's not a bad writer" is bs. Your trying to claim that he is not talented in a two faced manor. Trying to say one thing while meaning another. I personally don't Rick Remender's writing but I will admit he has some talent. I'll state one of his stories sucks ie Frankencastle but I won't state rick remender sucks.

Don't act as if I have a comprehension issue

You do have a comprehesion problem repeatedly stating that big events were good for Ms. Marvel's series than stating Dark Reign killed her book. That right there is one example of many ways you contradicting yourself posting on this topic.

I didn't fail to understand anything.

I could be really mean here and list examples but I'm just going to state I haven't seen any comprehension from you in your posts.

You're just making e xcuse for Ennis writing and it's fanboyish.

Yeah your wolverine fanboy alright.

I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you about this because I know how you could honestly believe that.

I think the problem with Frankencastle was that people weren't willing to accept change from the start. I remember when it was announced on CV and most people had already assumed they weren't going to like it without giving it a chance.

Turning Frank into a creature has already been tried before so you can't blame people for being negative about that.

Frank fighting monsters as a Frankenstein is different from having a book based on a monster team that he runs.

Problem with this suggestion is we are no longer talking about the Punisher than. If a writer made Frank leader of a monster team the writer just committed character derailment.Even Frankencastle was character derailment.

I bet if they could have tied that into something and gave them a somewhat major role,

Every time they try to get Frank involved majorally in the greater marvel universe it never works right...from him fighting doom to joining the secret avengers it feels completely forced.

they could have gotten people to like the new Frank.

The new Frank would've been a major **** you to the fans of the Punisher.

I don't think that writers "don't get" Frank.

Angel Punisher, Black Punisher, Mafia joining Punisher, and Frankencastle seem to suggest otherwise.

He's not really a complex character. I simply think that his character type doesn't allow for many different story lines,

He's a niche character that is true but their is nothing wrong with that. You don't read the Punisher to see him fighting aliens or reality hoping you read other books for that.

I think Punisher as Captain America was the best part of the Initiative event.

It didn't even have anything to do with the initiative not to mention it was way out of character.

In your case yes you try to make a bunch of nonsense points then claim the ones I made were nonsense while contradicting yourself repeatedly.

Garth Ennis sucks in my opinion.You don't have to like it but you can't tell me what I can and cannot say about him.I never said that "I don't mean he's a bad writer" I said that he's a garbage writer and that I wasn't stating that as fact I was stating it as my opinion.

You can state you don't like Garth Ennis fine but your continued pathetic whining statements that "he sucks but he's not a bad writer" is bs. Your trying to claim that he is not talented in a two faced manor. Trying to say one thing while meaning another. I personally don't Rick Remender's writing but I will admit he has some talent. I'll state one of his stories sucks ie Frankencastle but I won't state rick remender sucks.

Don't act as if I have a comprehension issue

You do have a comprehesion problem repeatedly stating that big events were good for Ms. Marvel's series than stating Dark Reign killed her book. That right there is one example of many ways you contradicting yourself posting on this topic.

I didn't fail to understand anything.

I could be really mean here and list examples but I'm just going to state I haven't seen any comprehension from you in your posts.

You're just making e xcuse for Ennis writing and it's fanboyish.

Yeah your wolverine fanboy alright.

@cody1984: You have an intelligent take on the Punisher

@Vance Astro said:

I can blame people for assuming something won't be good before they even read it.Turning Frank into a creature may have already been tried but that doesn't mean Frankencastle had to be anything like it.

Problem with Frankencastle it was just like Angel Punisher. Angel Punisher killed Demons and Frankencastle killed a bunch of monster hunters, monsters, and ninjas. It wasn't in character and turning him into some sort of creature hasn't worked in the past and when they tried it again I don't get why they think it would've worked this time.

Frank needs to be derailed.

Sales suggest otherwise. If him being an angel or monster would've boosted sales dramatically he would've most likely stayed that way. The sales dropped though and Ennis and now Rucka had to fix the character.

There is really nothing left to do with him.

He is a niche character. His role is to hunt criminals to extermination whether they are organized crime, terrorists, white collar, etc. doesn't matter. That is the Punisher's purpose. Can he deal with something else occasionally? Yeah, he can but dealing with crime is what the Punisher is designed to do.

The whole "I kill villains because heroes are too scared too" thing is dead.

I'm not seeing this. Granted the rest of the marvel universe characters have become a bit more violent than previously but no other character is like the Punisher.

They need to give him something to have a book for.

He already does have a reason to have a book since he fills a niche that no other character in the marvel universe fills.

The Angel Punisher, Black Punisher, & Mafia joining arcs to suggest that the writers don't get the Punisher. They just weren't good stories.

They thought they could completely change the character and it would work. The writers of those stories weren't horrible writers they thought him dealing with organized crime (except black punisher) had gotten old and tried to have the character become something else. It backfired on them and the books got dropped because fans hated it.

There isn't much to understand about the Punisher. How didn't Frank's time as Punisher have anything to do with the Initiative event? (Not the team but the short event).

He had nothing to do with it that's why. he didn't train anyone at the base didn't join any of the different teams and wasn't locked in that mega prison either.

He took over as Captain America.As a result of Civll War. Initiative showed the effects of Civil War so how didn't it have anything to do with it?

He didn't even take over for Captain America he just put on a similiar looking custom to fight Hatemonger and the National Force that was it. It had nothing to do with the actual initiative. He only did to because someone else wore a similiar looking custom (which never made sense) so I don't see how it was supposed to be part of the initiative series since his title had no bearing on it.

@9th Wonder said:

@cody1984 said:

In your case yes you try to make a bunch of nonsense points then claim the ones I made were nonsense while contradicting yourself repeatedly.

Garth Ennis sucks in my opinion.You don't have to like it but you can't tell me what I can and cannot say about him.I never said that "I don't mean he's a bad writer" I said that he's a garbage writer and that I wasn't stating that as fact I was stating it as my opinion.

You can state you don't like Garth Ennis fine but your continued pathetic whining statements that "he sucks but he's not a bad writer" is bs. Your trying to claim that he is not talented in a two faced manor. Trying to say one thing while meaning another. I personally don't Rick Remender's writing but I will admit he has some talent. I'll state one of his stories sucks ie Frankencastle but I won't state rick remender sucks.

Don't act as if I have a comprehension issue

You do have a comprehesion problem repeatedly stating that big events were good for Ms. Marvel's series than stating Dark Reign killed her book. That right there is one example of many ways you contradicting yourself posting on this topic.

I didn't fail to understand anything.

I could be really mean here and list examples but I'm just going to state I haven't seen any comprehension from you in your posts.

You're just making e xcuse for Ennis writing and it's fanboyish.

Yeah your wolverine fanboy alright.

This is a joke. All you're doing is taking everything that applies to you and applying it to me. Your e xample of my comprehension issue is clearly yours. I made a point. You didn't get it and now you're saying I contradicted myself when actually I didn't. I was quite clear about my point. Major events did help Ms.Marvel's book. The one that killed it isn't contradictory to my point because the ones before it did what I said they did and it's factual. You keep going on an on about Garth Ennis when I honestly don't even care about him and he had nothing to do with my argument. I don't get how you put quotes around "he sucks but he's not a bad writer" when I never said that, but at the same time you're telling me it's me who has a comprehension problem? LMFAO.

The only joke here is you. You've tried repeatedly to make nonsense claims like Frankencastle wasn't character derailment and that big events were good for Ms. Marvel while claiming Dark Reign ruined her book. You went on and on about big events helping her book and claiming dark reign killed it that is perfect example of someone contradicting them self. Your also the one who brought up Garth Ennis so if you didn't care about him why did you bring him up? You didn't bring him up just once you brought him up repeatedly to try and make a nonsense point that had absolutely nothing to do with the topic I created.

Next time learn how to make a proper argument before posting and make sure you comprehend what you write since you have failed at that repeatedly.

The only joke here is you. You've tried repeatedly to make nonsense claims like Frankencastle wasn't character derailment and that big events were good for Ms. Marvel while claiming Dark Reign ruined her book. You went on and on about big events helping her book and claiming dark reign killed it that is perfect example of someone contradicting them self. Your also the one who brought up Garth Ennis so if you didn't care about him why did you bring him up? You didn't bring him up just once you brought him up repeatedly to try and make a nonsense point that had absolutely nothing to do with the topic I created.

Next time learn how to make a proper argument before posting and make sure you comprehend what you write since you have failed at that repeatedly.

@9th Wonder said:

@cody1984 said:

Both of you need to take a break from this thread and calm down. Either accept that you disagree and ignore each other or debate civilly - no ad hominems.

@9th Wonder said:

@cody1984 said:

The only joke here is you. You've tried repeatedly to make nonsense claims like Frankencastle wasn't character derailment and that big events were good for Ms. Marvel while claiming Dark Reign ruined her book. You went on and on about big events helping her book and claiming dark reign killed it that is perfect example of someone contradicting them self. Your also the one who brought up Garth Ennis so if you didn't care about him why did you bring him up? You didn't bring him up just once you brought him up repeatedly to try and make a nonsense point that had absolutely nothing to do with the topic I created.

Next time learn how to make a proper argument before posting and make sure you comprehend what you write since you have failed at that repeatedly.

The sad part about this is you actually believe you're right.

What's a matter you had to delete your previous response and this is the best you could come up with? Your pathetic and this is my last response to you in this thread.

What's a matter you had to delete your previous response and this is the best you could come up with? Your pathetic and this is my last response to you in this thread.