Greg Rucka exposes the treatment at hands of DC and Marvel

#1 Edited by Bionder (268 posts) - - Show Bio

The dirty little secret is that those Image guys made all these deals and almost to a man failed to deliver. They burnt Hollywood horribly on letting comics talent actually be a part of the production of the material they sold.

I’ve reached the end of my Work For Hire rope. I’m enjoying The Punisher, but that’s not mine, it’s Marvel’s, and l knew that going in. I have spent a lot of my comics career in service of other masters, – and I’ve had enough of that for now. I’m sick to death of the way the Big Two treat people.

I gave seven very good years to DC and they took gross advantage of me. That’s partially my fault, but not entirely. At this point, I see no reason why I should have to put up with that, I can sink or swim on my own.

You are seeing a grotesque Hollywoodisation of the two main companies. There was at least a period where I felt that the way they wanted to make money was by telling the best story they could; now the quality of the work matters less than that the book comes out. There is far less a desire to see good work be done.

Dan DiDio has gone on record, and this is the same man that said Gotham Central would never be cancelled as long as he was there, telling people what a great book Gotham Central was, but it never made any money.

Well, take a look at your trade sales! That book has made nothing but money as a trade. What I’m now being told is, ”lt was never worth anything to us anyway.”So, you know what? They can stop selling the Batwoman: Elegy trade and stop selling the Wonder Woman trades and everything else I’ve done, because clearly I’ve not done anything of service and those guys aren’t making any money off me.

Right now, where the market is, I have no patience for it.

My run on Punisher ends on #16, and we are then doing a five-issue mini called War Zone and then I’m done. That’s it! The Powers-That-Be at Marvel, without talking to me, decreed that he’s going to join a team on another book.

That’s their choice, they own him, but I don’t have to be happy about it. I am glad I had the opportunity to work on the character and I’m proud of the work I’ve done.

Despite what the publishers say, their interest in the talent is minimal now, the interest is only in promoting the financial worth of their properties. That was not the case as of two or three years ago, when there was an ‘Exclusives war’, but that’s all gone by the wayside now. Ultimately, they are saying, “We don’t need you,’ because they can get a million more just like you.

For every person who passes on the opportunity to write Spider-Man or Superman, I guarantee there are 5000 hungry writers who would give their eye-teeth to do it. But just because they want to do it, it doesn’t mean they are capable of doing it. It comes down entirely to Warner Bros. realising what they owned but had not exploited. At the end of the Harry Potter franchise, they went “Oh, crap, we need something else fast’, looked over at Marvel’s very very successful film program.

DC are playing catch up with Marvel, because of things like The Avengers breaking six hundred million domestic. That’s a lot of money, I don’t begrudge Warner Bros wanting to make bank it would be like blaming a shark for eating, but l do think that the pursuit of that financial windfall bears a detrimental effect on the creative and artistic side.

source

This probably explains why they are cancelling the Punisher run, imo it's not because of the low sales (23k more or less) but to integrate the character in a team book.

To help them to make more profit and don't care about the readers who follow the character for years.

#2 Posted by AtPhantom (14454 posts) - - Show Bio

That's sad. But then, not really unexpected.

#3 Posted by Mercy_ (92074 posts) - - Show Bio

Good for him

Moderator
#4 Edited by Twentyfive (2405 posts) - - Show Bio

@Bionder said:

The dirty little secret is that those Image guys made all these deals and almost to a man failed to deliver. They burnt Hollywood horribly on letting comics talent actually be a part of the production of the material they sold.

I’ve reached the end of my Work For Hire rope. I’m enjoying The Punisher, but that’s not mine, it’s Marvel’s, and l knew that going in. I have spent a lot of my comics career in service of other masters, – and I’ve had enough of that for now. I’m sick to death of the way the Big Two treat people.

I gave seven very good years to DC and they took gross advantage of me. That’s partially my fault, but not entirely. At this point, I see no reason why I should have to put up with that, I can sink or swim on my own.

You are seeing a grotesque Hollywoodisation of the two main companies. There was at least a period where I felt that the way they wanted to make money was by telling the best story they could; now the quality of the work matters less than that the book comes out. There is far less a desire to see good work be done.

Dan DiDio has gone on record, and this is the same man that said Gotham Central would never be cancelled as long as he was there, telling people what a great book Gotham Central was, but it never made any money.

Well, take a look at your trade sales! That book has made nothing but money as a trade. What I’m now being told is, ”lt was never worth anything to us anyway.”So, you know what? They can stop selling the Batwoman: Elegy trade and stop selling the Wonder Woman trades and everything else I’ve done, because clearly I’ve not done anything of service and those guys aren’t making any money off me.

Right now, where the market is, I have no patience for it.

My run on Punisher ends on #16, and we are then doing a five-issue mini called War Zone and then I’m done. That’s it! The Powers-That-Be at Marvel, without talking to me, decreed that he’s going to join a team on another book.

That’s their choice, they own him, but I don’t have to be happy about it. I am glad I had the opportunity to work on the character and I’m proud of the work I’ve done.

Despite what the publishers say, their interest in the talent is minimal now, the interest is only in promoting the financial worth of their properties. That was not the case as of two or three years ago, when there was an ‘Exclusives war’, but that’s all gone by the wayside now. Ultimately, they are saying, “We don’t need you,’ because they can get a million more just like you.

For every person who passes on the opportunity to write Spider-Man or Superman, I guarantee there are 5000 hungry writers who would give their eye-teeth to do it. But just because they want to do it, it doesn’t mean they are capable of doing it. It comes down entirely to Warner Bros. realising what they owned but had not exploited. At the end of the Harry Potter franchise, they went “Oh, crap, we need something else fast’, looked over at Marvel’s very very successful film program.

DC are playing catch up with Marvel, because of things like The Avengers breaking six hundred million domestic. That’s a lot of money, I don’t begrudge Warner Bros wanting to make bank it would be like blaming a shark for eating, but l do think that the pursuit of that financial windfall bears a detrimental effect on the creative and artistic side.

This is the reason I am pissed at DC because they have countless Batman books. Despite the fact that Batman: TDK was among the worst books they were publishing, they didn't give a damn, and let it keep flooding the market. And every time a new wave rolled along, we have a new Bat book. It isn't fair to fans of other characters to omit those characters in favor of GOTHAM, GOTHAM, ARKHAM, JOKER all the time. Same thing with Marvel. I don't pay as much attention to them as I do to DC, but I doubt there are 10 books (though I may be wrong) that do not fall under the banners "Avengers" or "X-Men", or 10 books featuring characters that are not a part of either team. These companies want to play it safe, and the comic readership is paying for it. They are being subjected to mediocrity.

#5 Edited by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Twentyfive said: 

This is the I am pissed at DC because they have countless Batman books. Despite the fact that Batman: TDK was among the worst books they were publishing, they didn't give a damn, and let it keep flooding the market. And every time a new wave rolled along, we have a new Bat book. It isn't fair to fans of other characters to omit those characters in favor of GOTHAM, GOTHAM, ARKHAM, JOKER all the time. Same thing with Marvel. I don't pay as much attention to them as I do to DC, but I doubt there are 10 books (though I may be wrong) that do not fall under the banners "Avengers" or "X-Men", or 10 books featuring characters that are not a part of either team. These companies want to play it safe, and the comic readership is paying for it. They are being subjected to mediocrity.

Who do you think buys the fifteen million Avengers series? Idiots. Until people stop buying the sh*t, Marvel and DC won't stop printing it. The comic fans of the world are embracing mediocrity.  
 
 
None of what Rucka said is a surprise. Comics (from the big two) are merely advertisements for movie properties that just happen to make a profit.
#6 Posted by Twentyfive (2405 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt: It is a darn shame when artistic visions are compromised for the sake of a quick buck. I am glad you understand lol. I know I keep saying this, but the new 52 got me back into comics after a long time away, and just one year later, I find myself disappointed with the whole thing. Not just DC, but Marvel as well. Books that don't sell as well as others fall under strict editorial scrutiny, and story arcs like Batwing's end up concluding in Gotham City of all places. I don't really know about Marvel to complain other than those Avenger titles, but I know they are guilty of this to a degree.

#7 Posted by Bionder (268 posts) - - Show Bio

Totally agree. I think most of the people will buy every comic book of the character he/she likes, even if it's bad. I have just remembered that Punisher in the early 90's had 3 books ongoing, when they could use only one book for this kind of character.

#8 Posted by The Lobster (1427 posts) - - Show Bio

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't part of being in comics or any media for that matter.....compromise.
 
Editors are in charge of making sure of two things, one to avoid controversy (basically censor them so they don't have to deal with whiny parents and such) and two...to ensure sales. It's their job. Granted some editors seem to overstep their boundaries. It's one thing to say "Oh you're book isn't selling well, you know what people like? The Terminator.... you should make Swamp Thing a cyborg." That's forcing your ideas onto the writer.......BIG NO NO.  It's another thing to say "Oh Scott Snyder is writing a crossover. Here's what happens, You should write a tie in to boost up sales a little?"  That's not affecting the story that's just asking to deviate a little bit at the most, you can still do what you want....You just have to tie it in a bit.
 
I get the feeling that Greg Rucka left the title, not that Marvel canceled it because Punisher is going to be in the Thunderbolts but because they wanted him to tie it in with The Thunderbolts or something and he didn't want to deviate from his present course. Marvel wouldn't cancel it just because Punisher is on a team, a character can have his own ongoing and still be part of the team. Deadpool is part of the team, and he's got his own ongoing. Plus his Punisher series is really well done and sells moderately well....so logically there really is no other reason for it to go belly-up.
 
Which leads us into compromising, writers should  be able to write whatever story they want and do whatever they want. But they have to compromise with the editors if things clash. If the editor says "I don't think we should kill off that character just yet, there is so much more left to do with him", the writer should say "Okay I won't kill him off, but I want him mortally or psychologically injured then." That's meeting halfway. Both parties should be satisfied, if one isn't then something wrong is happening or egos are clashing. 
 
I love Greg Rucka's work, but I got to side with the editors on this one.

#9 Posted by daredevil21134 (9037 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mercy_ said:

Good for him

I agree,it's about time somebody took a stand

#10 Posted by Bluefox170 (377 posts) - - Show Bio

I am a Punisher fan as well and plan to pick up the new Thunderbolts purely for Frank but it's exactly this that has me torn about picking it up. Greg Rucka's punisher is perfect, and to see it get canned so there can be a fancy team book makes me sick.

#11 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with everyone's takes on this -- including editorial staff having the right to expect for writers to accommodate changes in line-ups and storylines. When dealing with artists -- literary/visual what have you - there will be some friction between that direction and the artist's view for a character. An artist expects he/she was hired for her talent and therefore should be given a loose rein in how the book they were hired to work on progresses and then you have the editors dictating what they want, expecting the change they decided was the way to go half way through a story-arc to be adapted without fuss. Its a common theme now it seems. So I can understand Mr. Rucka's frustration and his opinion about generic writers. Comics are becoming less an art-form and more a marketing tool to push other more profitable ventures such as movies and video-games.

This is a business. And its big business now --- House of Mouse, Warner Bros -- and even houses like Vertigo and Image will follow suit if they want to stay out of the red. It would be in the companies' best interests to shift focus from writers of the comic to simply the character - much like hiring a lesser known actor for a part because of salary. Except in comics, there is a very loyal fan-base for the characters and its been proven to work in the favour of the higher-ups because regardless of how crappy the story is, these fans still buy and support the book. I wish my opinion was otherwise, but this is the way things seem to be going. The days of creative teams being touted as a selling point for comics is coming to an end.

#12 Posted by DaveThePunisher (21 posts) - - Show Bio

I love Rucka's work on The Punisher and am sad to see it end. I am trying to stay optimistic and am hoping that Frank's inclusion on this new team will boost interest in the character and will hopefully lead to new things for him.

The sad truth is that it is all about the money and all about the MOVIES. What they really need to do is make a good Punisher movie that is true to the character (not a Miami FBI agent, not killing undercover cops) and make it gritty as hell with a good character-driven story. I know it feels backwards, but if the movie sells, so will the comic. Just look at Thanos. Nobody cared about him last year but now he is the most popular Marvel villain based on 5 SECONDS of airtime during the CREDITS! LOL. And the best part is people will defend Thanos as the greatest villain of all time... ONLY because they are so hyped for The Avengers sequel. If, in The Avengers movie, they had a 5 second clip of Frank just walking down the street, the Rucka run would be going on indefinitely.

Marvel needs to wise up and start promoting quality characters like The Punisher and STOP with all this space nonsense! A raccoon that shoots guns is just plain ridiculous... a former Marine, who's family was killed, shooting guns makes more sense and is believable. Even Space Punisher is clear example that Marvel is trying to only do fantasy alien movies and they don't care about realistic characters. I say, Marvel should sell The Punisher to Sony so they can include him in the Amazing Spider-Man sequel. Frank would definitely fit nicely in that world they created. Or sell The Punisher to Warner Bros and have Nolan work on a movie (even though that would NEVER happen). Poor Frank is stuck with Marvel and Disney who ONLY care about catering to 8 year old movie fan-boys who want fantasy and space aliens.

#13 Posted by Bionder (268 posts) - - Show Bio

@DaveThePunisher Couldn't said better. Maybe they could let Thomas Jane take care of a future Punisher film.

About the comics i think marvel could at least tried another writter if they were not happy with the sales of Rucka's run.

I liked the Rucka's run he is a great storyteller but i think the action was a little slow paced. To gather new readers probably that's not the best aproach... Maybe i'm wrong..

#14 Posted by johnkmccubbin91 (3481 posts) - - Show Bio

@DaveThePunisher: I could see Marvel using the character through a company like Paramount and hopefully do a Dredd level of violence film. It would be nice to see a good film as the last two have been okay but not startling (I personally prefer War Zone, but that's my opinion) and the original just plain sucked. But neither of them are as good as they could be. The new Dredd film shows how you don't need a big budget to make a good film just the right idea and not being over complicated.

I am also upset that Punisher isn't getting a ongoing any more I will probably pick up whatever he goes in but that will be just for him. I also think that Rucka has done the best job on Punisher since Ennis and maybe even better. He's a great writer and I've loved most of his stuff besides Wolverine Coyote Crossing but the rest of his Wolverine run was great.

#15 Posted by Bionder (268 posts) - - Show Bio

I will pick the very first issues of Thunderbolts but only if it shows a minimum of quality. If not i will drop in no time. The problem with people is that they keep funding comics with the worst storylines just because of the characters. That's why the market is what it is, the big companies only care about numbers and not about quality. That's why they canceled the current Punisher run.

#16 Posted by jrock85 (2874 posts) - - Show Bio

Slowly, but surely, I'm starting to wrap my head around the fact that I probably won't be reading any comics from the Big Two within the next couple of years. The enthusiasm I once had for immersing myself in both universes has quickly turned into a disinclination because of the reasons given by Mr. Rucka.

#17 Posted by Supreme Marvel (11264 posts) - - Show Bio

There goes my dream of him returning to DC.

#18 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1120 posts) - - Show Bio

In many of these cases you can say it is a case of sour grapes, but after reading this I find it hard to fault Rucka for anything he said. This is not your usual pissed off rant, it's more of a disappointed eulogy to his work with the Big 2, therefore I take it far more seriously. Not being an insider but only looking at the surface of what is said, it's hard not to agree with his view based on the reasons given.

Rucka is probably a lot better off doing his own creator owned work for both the creative freedom and the financial boon to him if one of them is bought by Hollywood. It's sad for the fans of his For Hire work, but if him leaving means more things like Queen and Country, I'm all for it.

#19 Posted by MadeinBangladesh (4962 posts) - - Show Bio
@Bionder said:

The dirty little secret is that those Image guys made all these deals and almost to a man failed to deliver. They burnt Hollywood horribly on letting comics talent actually be a part of the production of the material they sold.

I’ve reached the end of my Work For Hire rope. I’m enjoying The Punisher, but that’s not mine, it’s Marvel’s, and l knew that going in. I have spent a lot of my comics career in service of other masters, – and I’ve had enough of that for now. I’m sick to death of the way the Big Two treat people.

I gave seven very good years to DC and they took gross advantage of me. That’s partially my fault, but not entirely. At this point, I see no reason why I should have to put up with that, I can sink or swim on my own.

You are seeing a grotesque Hollywoodisation of the two main companies. There was at least a period where I felt that the way they wanted to make money was by telling the best story they could; now the quality of the work matters less than that the book comes out. There is far less a desire to see good work be done.

Dan DiDio has gone on record, and this is the same man that said Gotham Central would never be cancelled as long as he was there, telling people what a great book Gotham Central was, but it never made any money.

Well, take a look at your trade sales! That book has made nothing but money as a trade. What I’m now being told is, ”lt was never worth anything to us anyway.”So, you know what? They can stop selling the Batwoman: Elegy trade and stop selling the Wonder Woman trades and everything else I’ve done, because clearly I’ve not done anything of service and those guys aren’t making any money off me.

Right now, where the market is, I have no patience for it.

My run on Punisher ends on #16, and we are then doing a five-issue mini called War Zone and then I’m done. That’s it! The Powers-That-Be at Marvel, without talking to me, decreed that he’s going to join a team on another book.

That’s their choice, they own him, but I don’t have to be happy about it. I am glad I had the opportunity to work on the character and I’m proud of the work I’ve done.

Despite what the publishers say, their interest in the talent is minimal now, the interest is only in promoting the financial worth of their properties. That was not the case as of two or three years ago, when there was an ‘Exclusives war’, but that’s all gone by the wayside now. Ultimately, they are saying, “We don’t need you,’ because they can get a million more just like you.

For every person who passes on the opportunity to write Spider-Man or Superman, I guarantee there are 5000 hungry writers who would give their eye-teeth to do it. But just because they want to do it, it doesn’t mean they are capable of doing it. It comes down entirely to Warner Bros. realising what they owned but had not exploited. At the end of the Harry Potter franchise, they went “Oh, crap, we need something else fast’, looked over at Marvel’s very very successful film program.

DC are playing catch up with Marvel, because of things like The Avengers breaking six hundred million domestic. That’s a lot of money, I don’t begrudge Warner Bros wanting to make bank it would be like blaming a shark for eating, but l do think that the pursuit of that financial windfall bears a detrimental effect on the creative and artistic side.

source

This probably explains why they are cancelling the Punisher run, imo it's not because of the low sales (23k more or less) but to integrate the character in a team book.

To help them to make more profit and don't care about the readers who follow the character for years.

Screw MARVEL
#20 Posted by MadeinBangladesh (4962 posts) - - Show Bio
@Bluefox170: @Bionder:  yea Im doin the same thing.
#21 Posted by CrimsonAlchemist (410 posts) - - Show Bio

Such a shame his run was awesome.

#22 Posted by Liz_Lixx (25 posts) - - Show Bio

My 2 cents: Punisher is a solo act, not a team player. He shouldn't be part of a team, at least for any prolonged period. He's not wired that way.

#23 Posted by Bionder (268 posts) - - Show Bio

@Liz_Lixx said:

My 2 cents: Punisher is a solo act, not a team player. He shouldn't be part of a team, at least for any prolonged period. He's not wired that way.

And believe he will not, probably he will be the first to quit Thunderbolts. That's my guess.

#24 Posted by dtm1980 (238 posts) - - Show Bio

It so sucked that Marvel saw fit to cancel the best Punisher title in years just because they were putting him on Thunderbolts but I am not surprised. They seem to hate the character, or maybe it's the writers that hate him. Or maybe... it's the writers that hate the labels for pissing on artistic integrity and making them look small and insignificant after the hard work they have done. Rucka is well right in everything he said. How he has turned that character around you won't see anywhere else. He did for 616 what Ennis did for Knights and MAX and probably had an amazing future ahead of him with that character. He did turn Frank around and reintroduce him into the 616 Universe where nobody else knew how. And I think you can most likely guarantee that his place on Thunderbolts won't be permanent or particularly inspiring. In fact I dread him being made to look like the fifth wheel like he has looked pretty much everywhere else, even if Jason Aaron is writing him for the third time since MAX.

But why cancel the original and main title just because he's going on Thunderbolts? For a business decision, that's retarded. That doesn't even seem to have much to do with money. That just seems to be a grudge move on behalf of someone that wants the likes of Rucka and Checcheto working on bigger names and if that's what happened, I'm so glad Rucka lashed out the way he did and wish him luck.

Marvel continuity is for shit, they can't get anything right so nobody cares. Everybody forgot he existed when they killed him off in Dark Reign. Everybody forgot his comeback grudge with Daken, Hood and Osborn because it never happened and then Rick Remender was cancelled. Everybody forgot that Ennis had written his future death to preserve his own work on MAX when they changed his origin, cancelled him and killed him off. And every single writer since after Matt Faction left has written a bullshit leaving letter to the fans trying to make it look like it wasn't the cancellation of the character, it was their own artistic integrity and that they were happy with the outcome. I hope the majority of readers aren't that dumb.

Only Rucka has basically said, 'screw you for making me trust you and then abusing that trust after what I have done for you,' and good on him. He should get himself onto an independent label and teach Marvel and DC a valuable lesson. You don't tell your best employees they're invalid, you don't take away the customers' ability to choose and you don't slaughter your cash cow for any reason!

#25 Posted by tomchu (522 posts) - - Show Bio

Thunderbolts is horrible. Steve Dillon on art just doesnt work HERE (maybe elsewhere, bro). Fact is Punisher was an awesome book with an awesome writer and two awesome artists, it had some of the best cover art I've ever seen. Whats worse is that Thunderbolts doesnt even make sense, I mean, Punisher in a team? Get your head out of your ass.

#26 Posted by longbowhunter (5829 posts) - - Show Bio

Rucka has been one of my favorite writers for years. I'll support anything he puts out. It breaks my heart to see talents like Greg Rucka and Ed Brubaker throw in the towel when it comes to superhero comics. Cant wait to see what great creator owned work he puts out in the future.

#27 Posted by Bionder (268 posts) - - Show Bio

It's really sad seeing the Punisher condemned to mini series instead of an solid ongoing. I think Greg Rucka is showing how the Punisher is written in "War Zone" it's unfortunate that the pace wasn't like this in the ongoing. I can say that this version of Rucka is one of the best if not the best since the Punisher from the 90's.

#28 Posted by Captain_Yesterday (807 posts) - - Show Bio

I was planning on starting to read the new Thunderbolts just because of the Punisher. Now this kinda makes me not want to, as it's proving Marvels right if I do.

I think what they really need to do is go back to an Ennis-like MAX style Punisher where there are no Superheros and he doing what he's supposed to be doing, hunting criminals. Maybe even reboot him so he's no old enough to be my Grandfather(plus he died in the last MAX series anyway.)

Point is, that's the thing that makes the Punisher cool, he's not some rock em sock em action figure, but just a guy raging a war on the Mob and those who prey on the weak. He doesn't need a special suit, radioactive spider or muntant powers, just his training, arsenal of weapons and unflinching drive to do whatever it takes to get the job done. A lot of that is lost when you have him battling with Superheros half the time. Plus, it makes him and his war feel far less significant when you have guys in armor suits and teams of Superheros fighting evil in the same city.

That being said I do enjoy many of the stories with Frank and the rest of the Marvel universe, and I am enjoying War Zone more that I thought I would. But, in my opinion, the character works best in his own universe..And I don't understand why Marvel feels they must tie every book they release in with all the others. Then it just becomes a muddled mess.

Anyway, just the .02 cents of a noobie to the site.(And to paying attention to comics that are current)

Also, anyone read any of the Fury Max Issues with Frank in them? Any good?

#29 Posted by tupiaz (1971 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

I agree with everyone's takes on this -- including editorial staff having the right to expect for writers to accommodate changes in line-ups and storylines. When dealing with artists -- literary/visual what have you - there will be some friction between that direction and the artist's view for a character. An artist expects he/she was hired for her talent and therefore should be given a loose rein in how the book they were hired to work on progresses and then you have the editors dictating what they want, expecting the change they decided was the way to go half way through a story-arc to be adapted without fuss. Its a common theme now it seems. So I can understand Mr. Rucka's frustration and his opinion about generic writers. Comics are becoming less an art-form and more a marketing tool to push other more profitable ventures such as movies and video-games.

This is a business. And its big business now --- House of Mouse, Warner Bros -- and even houses like Vertigo and Image will follow suit if they want to stay out of the red. It would be in the companies' best interests to shift focus from writers of the comic to simply the character - much like hiring a lesser known actor for a part because of salary. Except in comics, there is a very loyal fan-base for the characters and its been proven to work in the favour of the higher-ups because regardless of how crappy the story is, these fans still buy and support the book. I wish my opinion was otherwise, but this is the way things seem to be going. The days of creative teams being touted as a selling point for comics is coming to an end.

Your are forgetting what writers can do for a comic. Peter David made Hulk popular, Chris Claremont made X-men and the X-universe popular, Miller (and later Bendis) made Daredevil popular (turning it from a bi monthly near cancellation to if I remember correctly a top ten title) the most recent example in Marvel is Bendis making Avengers popular.

#30 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

@tupiaz said:

@lykopis said:

I agree with everyone's takes on this -- including editorial staff having the right to expect for writers to accommodate changes in line-ups and storylines. When dealing with artists -- literary/visual what have you - there will be some friction between that direction and the artist's view for a character. An artist expects he/she was hired for her talent and therefore should be given a loose rein in how the book they were hired to work on progresses and then you have the editors dictating what they want, expecting the change they decided was the way to go half way through a story-arc to be adapted without fuss. Its a common theme now it seems. So I can understand Mr. Rucka's frustration and his opinion about generic writers. Comics are becoming less an art-form and more a marketing tool to push other more profitable ventures such as movies and video-games.

This is a business. And its big business now --- House of Mouse, Warner Bros -- and even houses like Vertigo and Image will follow suit if they want to stay out of the red. It would be in the companies' best interests to shift focus from writers of the comic to simply the character - much like hiring a lesser known actor for a part because of salary. Except in comics, there is a very loyal fan-base for the characters and its been proven to work in the favour of the higher-ups because regardless of how crappy the story is, these fans still buy and support the book. I wish my opinion was otherwise, but this is the way things seem to be going. The days of creative teams being touted as a selling point for comics is coming to an end.

Your are forgetting what writers can do for a comic. Peter David made Hulk popular, Chris Claremont made X-men and the X-universe popular, Miller (and later Bendis) made Daredevil popular (turning it from a bi monthly near cancellation to if I remember correctly a top ten title) the most recent example in Marvel is Bendis making Avengers popular.

I am going to disagree on the Bendis angle but that is entirely my opinion. In the books I follow, the writer had little to do with the success of them since the characters I enjoy have healthy fan bases.

I do agree about what particular writers can do -- I think of Morrison and Whedon in those terms but the industry falling apart without them is not likely (not saying you are saying that) -- there are so many talented people out there and they should all have a crack at it -- this includes artists as well.

Claremont deserves full credit for resuscitating the X-Men, but he brought comics into a whole new era. Now its all about huge events and cross-overs and getting as much money as you can out of the consumers. Bi-monthly issues like AvX is a perfect example of that and there was a slew of writers involved in that.

I get what you mean though.

#31 Posted by Bionder (268 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain_Yesterday: I agree with you when you say that the Punisher works better in his own universe like PunisherMax. But i don't mind if he exists in 616 in fact most of his books are from 616. But why don't make the Punisher travel around the world? Or there is only bad guys in NY? Or in the US? Back into Mike Baron's, Chuck Dixon, etc.. He traveled a lot why not trying the same formula? Looking for bad guys all over the world to kill them. It would be cool if you ask me.

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