Castle has killed 48,502 people

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#1 Posted by cody1984 (1277 posts) - - Show Bio

Apparently the Punisher's new editor Steven Wacker has given the Punisher an official kill count of 48,502 people counting from his first appearance all the way to the present.

Frank Castle has been through a lot in his tormented life, from his experience in Vietnam to the murder of his family to, recently, being cut into pieces and restored as a Frankenstein's monster. But with the "Punisher" set to relaunch with two issues in August, Frank may very well be Marvel's Next Big Thing. Writer Greg Rucka and editor Stephen Wacker are currently holding a press conference call to discuss the series, along with moderator James Viscardi, and CBR News will have live updates throughout the call.

Viscardi joked that the Punisher would be "Marvel's newest mutant," with "eye beams and claws." Rucka quipped that, "It's worked so far."

Wacker then said he'd long wanted to bring Rucka over to Marvel, which came together in a short story before Wacker inherited "The Punisher" relaunch.

Rucka said that the premise of the series is "not just the Punisher, but the Punisher in the Marvel U." "That's not an idea that comes easily, and I had to think of a way to make it work before I accepted."

The writer said the new series "follows up on 'Fear Itself,'" reflecting the new status quo, "but does not touch on 'Fear Itself.'" The first arc deals primarily with the crossfire of mob bosses fighting to reassert himself. "For Frank, there's a specific reason this catches his attention, but I'm not going to tell you because I want the reader to wonder."

Rucka also said that "we won't be spending much time in Frank's head—we know what he's thinking." But, he said, his methods toward killing evil people might change. Wacker added that there would be a departure from the "War Journal" narrative device.

Rucka offered that the Punisher has not always appealed to him. "That death-wish vigilante never really appealed to me," he said, but added that he no longer feels that way about the character. "He has the image of a bull in a china shop, but he's anything but," Rucka said. "I love how smart he is."

He continued that "Punisher" is basically a revenge story, "but what happens after the revenge is over, that isn't a story that's often told," noting that, "in 'Moby Dick,' it ends with everybody dead!"

"How it is that he can keep going, that he survives, that he hasn't eaten his own gun, those questions are really interesting to me," Rucka said.

Speaking of how he "carefully" uses other characters, Rucka said "we get a supervillain in #3." "The nature of the universe means the bad guys bring different tools into play," he said. "The other problem with Frank in the Marvel universe is that Frank kills people, and Marvel U is full of heroes who have a problem with that." This, then, will require Frank to at least attempt to keep a low profile. "But this is not a place to start; that's a complication for further down the road."

Rucka described artist Marco Checchetto as "a great storyteller," a skill which is "much harder than I think a lot of people realize." "That's just a delight, to be able to give him a script, saying this is what I'm thinking, this is what I'm hoping for, and seeing him turn it around into something better than I imagined." Rucka added that he and Checchetto "were on the same page before we'd even spoken to each other."

"There's a bit of the Punisher in Marco," Wacker added. "He has a very strong, Italian work ethic—I can get pages from him any hour of the day." He added, "this book does not look like any other Marvel comic right now, because of the intensity."

Wacker said Castle has killed 48,502 people, counting back to his first appearance, but Rucka said he does not have a favorite. "I will say that the best Punisher kills are the ones where you want to cheer when he does it. The book hinges on killing people who you really want to see dead."

Viscardi then opened the call to press questions.

The first question (from CBR) focused on Frank Castle's knowability or accessibility to readers—more directly, whether Frank is someone you'd ever want to have a beer with. Rucka said flatly, "No." "If he needs information from you, he might buy you beer... and not kill you, if you don't need to be punished." He added that he won't be delving back into why Frank does what he does, which has been covered in previous series.

Wacker said that "Punisher" is "a different kind of fantasy" for Marvel. "I don't think people are reading it and saying, 'I want to be the Punisher.'"

For the next question, Rucka said that Frank would begin "below notice" of heroes like the Avengers because "they're busy," but there would come a point when the Punisher's actions can not be ignored. Further, "the reaction that Spider-Man would have in facing the Punisher is very different from if Logan ever faced him." "The Punisher is not going to shoot Peter; but by the same token, there's no way he's going to let Peter take him in," adding, "there is no version of Peter I believe in that would be ok with what Frank is doing."

Wacker said that "for now, Frank's working alone," with Rucka adding that "Frank doesn't want to work with anybody," though some others have occasionally offered to help in "the war."

The next question touched on capital punishment in the real world and how this relates to "The Punisher." "If you'd asked me ten years ago, I would say it's the worst sort of capital punishment fantasy. Frank is never wrong; if he kills you, you're guilty." In the real world, though, there is the danger of executing an innocent person. Rucka added that he hasn't really considered this angle for this series and "that's not how Frank views it." For Castle, this is more of a military operation. "You don't turn to soldiers and say, 'this is capital punishment.' This is war." Frank Castle, Rucka continued, would not be doing what he does if he believed in the criminal justice system.

Rucka said Frank would be confronted with "a really good detective" whose job is made harder when "everyone you want to question has two .45 rounds in his forehead." "Frank's reaction would be, I'd like to make your job easier, but you're not doing your job," Rucka said.

There was a question about the lack of "War Journal" captions, which could obscure the differences between the Punisher and common mobsters, "so we know he's the good guy." "Hm. I'm not so sure he is the good guy," Rucka said. "I'm rooting for him, but I'm not behind him," Wacker added. "This take of Greg's and Marco's really fuzzies the line."

"Frank to me is not a hero; he's an anti-hero," Rucka said. "He's a cool anti-hero. He's a badass." The writer added that Frank is not someone who will always do the right thing, though he is a man with a code. And, though he won't harm the innocent, "he doesn't always know who's innocent, and that's a problem."

Wacker compared the series to an acting adage, that characters are judged by what they do rather than what they say. "I don't know that everyone who reads this book, especially after the first few issues, is going to be on Frank's side."

Asked about established heroes and villains that may be turning up, Rucka laughed that he does not want to say yet. "If Frank encounters a supervillain, the only way that can end is with that character killed; the list of villains I can kill is not as long as you'd think," he said. Then, "The Punisher/Dazzler crossover is all speculation at this point."

Rucka said "you're not going to meet a lot of mobsters" in the series, because "anyone mob-affiliated living in New York is an idiot." "Once you hunt something to extinction you need to hunt something else."

Ozzie, the detective mentioned previously, and Nora, a reporter, will play significant roles, as will a third supporting cast member whom Rucka would not yet identify.

Wacker added that the series will "redefine what crime means in New York City in 2011," rather than the 1970s take previous iterations have been mired in. He also noted that the real-life Hell's Kitchen no longer resembles Daredevil's, and Wacker said tinkering with the criminal elements is a priority for the next year.

The Exchange will be a major criminal organization seen in the series, with another organization seemingly run by the Owl. Some costumed villains will realize that they can ditch the costumes and get more done, without getting "a face-full of Mjolnir."

"Take just one piece of tech from an Avengers-esque eschelon ... and take it down to street level, you can completely change the playing field," Rucka added, though this would of course catch the attention of the major-league players it was stolen from.

"Frank's going to kill Captain America, guys," Wacker joked.

Asked if Frank would then be required to upgrade, Rucka cited DeNiro's line from "Ronin" that what he uses is "a toolbox; you use the tools for the job." It will be more difficult for Frank to acquire such tech, though, is more of a challenge than it would be for Tony Stark, but "he wouldn't need much; even an ounce of this stuff could make it a dark, dark day for anyone who crosses his path."

Talking about the level of violence, Rucka said that any extreme violence would be implied rather than explicit. "I think the benefit of having it implied is it sort of amps up the emotional anticipation," he said. Further, Frank "has seen body configurations no one's ever seen," but "he's doing that; for anyone else to come across it, it's going to evoke an emotional reaction." Still, Wacker added, the series will carry a Parental Advisory label.

Rucka said he "is not trying to top" previous "Punisher" writers, but "I want to deliver."

Frank will travel outside of NYC, Rucka said. "He will travel as the story requires." "Marco emailed me that 'I want to see Frank in Iraq.' I said absolutely not. I'm not sending Frank to Iraq. But Afghanistan..." He added that "if things get too hot for him in New York, he might decide it's a good time to move to Rio for a year."

Wacker added that Punisher will be traveling to "Spider-Island" for that crossover, appearing in a digital preview issue. "It's funny," Rucka added mischievously.

The final question came to Frank's endgame, what would cause him to stop his mission. Rucka said this speaks to the series' theme, "How do you survive revenge?" "Frank is incredibly damaged; he's a broken, broken human being," he said, "and yeah, we'll be talking about that."

#2 Posted by bringdeath (270 posts) - - Show Bio

I have a verryyyyyyyyyy bad feelings about these new stories
#3 Posted by Mr. Dead Pool (2625 posts) - - Show Bio

With that body count he just became the envy of every movie slasher in history!

#4 Posted by katanalauncher (934 posts) - - Show Bio

How can they recall the exact body count? 
Frank once blown a whole Island to pieces and there is no way you can determine the bodycount form that. 
Not to mention non-canonical appearance such as  "Punisher kills the marvel universe" or "Punisher MAX" series.

#5 Posted by Primmaster64 (21073 posts) - - Show Bio

O_O Damn...But it still doesn't compare to Superman-Prime.

#6 Posted by cody1984 (1277 posts) - - Show Bio

@bringdeath said:

I have a verryyyyyyyyyy bad feelings about these new stories

I'm going to reserve judgment until a couple of issues in but I got to ask what particularly gives the vibe that this new series is going to be bad?

@katanalauncher said:

How can they recall the exact body count? Frank once blown a whole Island to pieces and there is no way you can determine the bodycount form that. Not to mention non-canonical appearance such as "Punisher kills the marvel universe" or "Punisher MAX" series.

The Island had 2,000 mercenaries on it so Frank killed 2,000 people during the events that happened on Grand Nixon Island.

@Primmaster64 said:

O_O Damn...But it still doesn't compare to Superman-Prime.

Frank can't compete in the kill count against beings that destroy planets, star systems, galaxies, etc. However his kill count is the highest or one of highest among street level characters.

#7 Posted by joshmightbe (24767 posts) - - Show Bio

So he has a higher body count than Joker who last I saw was around 900 

#8 Posted by cattlebattle (13411 posts) - - Show Bio
@cody1984 said:

@bringdeath said:



Frank can't compete in the kill count against beings that destroy planets, star systems, galaxies, etc. However his kill count is the highest or one of highest among street level characters.

I think it's the highest for a street level, give him time eventually he'll reach that count :)
Online
#9 Posted by The Stegman (26103 posts) - - Show Bio

um...congratulations?  

#10 Posted by NightFang (10274 posts) - - Show Bio
@joshmightbe said:
So he has a higher body count than Joker who last I saw was around 900 
The Joker body cunt is much higher then that. I'ed say he's killed more people then Castle, if you count police and his own henchmen.
#11 Posted by joshmightbe (24767 posts) - - Show Bio
@NightFang: its been a few years since I looked up his count 
#12 Posted by cody1984 (1277 posts) - - Show Bio

@NightFang said:

@joshmightbe said:
So he has a higher body count than Joker who last I saw was around 900
The Joker body cunt is much higher then that. I'ed say he's killed more people then Castle, if you count police and his own henchmen.

I don't see how that is possible considering the Punisher in one issue alone killed 2,000 people and in another killed 400 or 500 people when he blew up a prison.

#13 Posted by joshmightbe (24767 posts) - - Show Bio
@cody1984: he's saying its higher than 900 not that its higher than Frank's
#14 Posted by cody1984 (1277 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

@cody1984: he's saying its higher than 900 not that its higher than Frank's

@NightFang said:

@joshmightbe said:
So he has a higher body count than Joker who last I saw was around 900
The Joker body cunt is much higher then that. I'ed say he's killed more people then Castle, if you count police and his own henchmen.

Actually he did both. I agree with him about the Jokers body count being much higher but highly doubt the Joker has killed as many people as Frank Castle has.

#15 Posted by joshmightbe (24767 posts) - - Show Bio
@cody1984: I'd put Wolverine's count as probably pretty close to Frank's cause back in the 80s he killed like 3 people an issue at least plus Logan has about 110 years on Frank and he spent most of that time killing people 
#16 Posted by NightFang (10274 posts) - - Show Bio
@cody1984 said:

@joshmightbe said:

@cody1984: he's saying its higher than 900 not that its higher than Frank's

@NightFang said:

@joshmightbe said:
So he has a higher body count than Joker who last I saw was around 900
The Joker body cunt is much higher then that. I'ed say he's killed more people then Castle, if you count police and his own henchmen.

Actually he did both. I agree with him about the Jokers body count being much higher but highly doubt the Joker has killed as many people as Frank Castle has.

 I was saying Joker has killed more then 900 people and the ones he doesn't kill are even worse off and I don't believe Castle has killed that many people, because he would probably get sick of it and turn the gun on himself for falling to make any real difference in the world. 
#17 Posted by Pokeysteve (8693 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks for posting this. I was unsure of this new Punisher but now I'm thinking about picking it up. After Ennis left Frank gradually went downhill but these guys seem to have a plan. My favorite character deserves at least an arcs worth of my time.  
 
I'm pretty sure Joker's kill count is at least in the 2000's. I read that somewhere a while ago. 

#18 Posted by Mr. Dead Pool (2625 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pokeysteve: I think Joker's will always be a little higher. I read somewhere that Joker has killed more people just randomly than super-powered villains that wreck entire cities if that's possible!
#19 Posted by Kal'smahboi (3567 posts) - - Show Bio
@Primmaster64 said:
O_O Damn...But it still doesn't compare to Superman-Prime.
Difference is, he considers himself on the good side.
#20 Edited by Amegashita (3560 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mr. Dead Pool said:

I read somewhere that Joker has killed more people just randomly than super-powered villains that wreck entire cities if that's possible!

  It's just adds to his credit that I, as a fan, finds this plausible.
#21 Posted by katanalauncher (934 posts) - - Show Bio
@Kal'smahboi said:
@Primmaster64 said:
O_O Damn...But it still doesn't compare to Superman-Prime.
Difference is, he considers himself on the good side.
So doe Emo-boy. 
And Frank never considered himself a hero, he never hides the fact that he kills because he hates criminal. 
#22 Posted by The_Peter_Cosmic (401 posts) - - Show Bio
@NightFang said:

The Joker body cunt is much higher then that.  
This sentence made me chuckle a bit.
#23 Posted by Mr. Dead Pool (2625 posts) - - Show Bio
@Amegashita: Plausible? Yes. Possible? I doubt but still it's comics so you can't read to much into it.
#24 Posted by Amegashita (3560 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mr. Dead Pool:  With someone that crazy, it's probably best to just accept it.  I mean, if you were walking down the street and you saw him, you'd probably just assume he'd kill you for no reason.  Just for your safety.
#25 Posted by Mr. Dead Pool (2625 posts) - - Show Bio
@Amegashita: True. In all honesty if I lived in the DC Universe I'd never set foot in Gotham unless I had a healing factor and an extremely high immunity to poison and pain!
#26 Posted by MrUnknown (1628 posts) - - Show Bio

Pardon the intrusion on the festivities here and the appetizer-of-a-monumental achievement for Frank, but I bring you the main course!

#27 Posted by Amegashita (3560 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mr. Dead Pool:  If I lived in the DCU, I'd just stay in a cabin on the praire.  Nothing ever happens there. 
 
@MrUnknown:   Wow.....  having that good of a KD ratio should be illegal.
#28 Posted by Pokeysteve (8693 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mr. Dead Pool: I believe it. Joker is a crazy mo fo lol. I think Frank has more though. The majority of his kills come from well planned events that allow him to take out multiple people at a time. Hell in that one story he kills like 50 people a night for three nights. If you're a criminal living in NY than you're a dumbass lol don't mess with Franky. I agree with your thoughts on Gotham as well. Wonder what the job market is like there where people actually work for the Joker =P
#29 Posted by cody1984 (1277 posts) - - Show Bio

@NightFang said:

@cody1984 said:

@joshmightbe said:

@cody1984: he's saying its higher than 900 not that its higher than Frank's

@NightFang said:

@joshmightbe said:
So he has a higher body count than Joker who last I saw was around 900
The Joker body cunt is much higher then that. I'ed say he's killed more people then Castle, if you count police and his own henchmen.

Actually he did both. I agree with him about the Jokers body count being much higher but highly doubt the Joker has killed as many people as Frank Castle has.

I was saying Joker has killed more then 900 people and the ones he doesn't kill are even worse off and I don't believe Castle has killed that many people, because he would probably get sick of it and turn the gun on himself for falling to make any real difference in the world.

Problem is Castle hasn't turned the gun on himself unless were talking about Punisher Purgatory which has been pretty much completely ignored because it was just that god awful.

#30 Posted by Mr. Dead Pool (2625 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pokeysteve: That's why I like stories that have Frank travelling all over punishing instead of staying the most hero populated city on the planet!! And as far as Joker goes I'm surprised that anyone's still willing to work for him! 
#31 Posted by MrUnknown (1628 posts) - - Show Bio
@Amegashita: Yeah it's over 9000 (squared)! And makes everyone else looks like 2's or 3's! ;p
#32 Posted by Amegashita (3560 posts) - - Show Bio
@MrUnknown:  More like 1's and 0's.  Vegeta would blow his brain out at this Kill Death Ratio.  
#33 Posted by labarith (669 posts) - - Show Bio
@joshmightbe said:
So he has a higher body count than Joker who last I saw was around 900 
Hey!  You leave Martha Alone!  She's been in like 2 comics, she's TRYING America.
#34 Posted by turoksonofstone (12901 posts) - - Show Bio

I wonder what kind of kill count Conan has.

#35 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29510 posts) - - Show Bio

Pretty f**king awesome. Also I'm really looking forward to the new series. 

#36 Posted by venomoushatred1001 (12273 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Stegman said:
um...congratulations?  
#37 Posted by bringdeath (270 posts) - - Show Bio
@Amegashita said:
@Mr. Dead Pool said:

I read somewhere that Joker has killed more people just randomly than super-powered villains that wreck entire cities if that's possible!

  It's just adds to his credit that I, as a fan, finds this plausible.

@cody1984 said:

@bringdeath said:

I have a verryyyyyyyyyy bad feelings about these new stories

I'm going to reserve judgment until a couple of issues in but I got to ask what particularly gives the vibe that this new series is going to be bad?

@katanalauncher said:

How can they recall the exact body count? Frank once blown a whole Island to pieces and there is no way you can determine the bodycount form that. Not to mention non-canonical appearance such as "Punisher kills the marvel universe" or "Punisher MAX" series.

The Island had 2,000 mercenaries on it so Frank killed 2,000 people during the events that happened on Grand Nixon Island.

@Primmaster64 said:

O_O Damn...But it still doesn't compare to Superman-Prime.

Frank can't compete in the kill count against beings that destroy planets, star systems, galaxies, etc. However his kill count is the highest or one of highest among street level characters.



Well cody the thing is I dont like how greg ruckas is explaining the persona of the punisher,how he said that we know what he's thinking and how ALL his stories are about revenge,his stories are much deeper than that,Hell even remender touched on that and the thing is he's making it so grey and we all know the punisher sees life in black in white ennis established that hell even grant established that . 
 
Thats how the punisher thinks and I just dont have a good feeling because punisher isn't as simple as ruckas is making him, But like you said I'll read the first arc and see how it goes.
#38 Posted by cody1984 (1277 posts) - - Show Bio

@bringdeath: Sorry if I came off a bit a rude I was just curious to know why Greg Rucka gave you a bad vibe about the upcoming new series. Anyway I do agree with you about Rucka making a mistake about not writing what Frank is thinking.

#39 Posted by nightwing91 (3877 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn't Black Adam's over 2 million? Counting when he killed everyone in Bialya.

#40 Posted by John Valentine (16335 posts) - - Show Bio
@NightFang said:
@joshmightbe said:
So he has a higher body count than Joker who last I saw was around 900 
The Joker body cunt is much higher then that. I'ed say he's killed more people then Castle, if you count police and his own henchmen.
Joker's killed no way near 50,000 people.
#41 Posted by bringdeath (270 posts) - - Show Bio
@cody1984
You didnt come off rude at all man I enjoy your forums and I love these discussions.
#42 Posted by U R Sofa King We Todd Did (1109 posts) - - Show Bio

d@mn, that efficiency 

#43 Posted by NightFang (10274 posts) - - Show Bio
@John Valentine said:
@NightFang said:
@joshmightbe said:
So he has a higher body count than Joker who last I saw was around 900 
The Joker body cunt is much higher then that. I'ed say he's killed more people then Castle, if you count police and his own henchmen.
Joker's killed no way near 50,000 people.
Its not even really about the kill count, but how damaging the kills are.
#44 Posted by John Valentine (16335 posts) - - Show Bio
@NightFang said:
@John Valentine said:
@NightFang said:
@joshmightbe said:
So he has a higher body count than Joker who last I saw was around 900 
The Joker body cunt is much higher then that. I'ed say he's killed more people then Castle, if you count police and his own henchmen.
Joker's killed no way near 50,000 people.
Its not even really about the kill count, but how damaging the kills are.
You made a claim about "body count", a quantitive claim.
#45 Posted by NightFang (10274 posts) - - Show Bio
@John Valentine said:
@NightFang said:
@John Valentine said:
@NightFang said:
@joshmightbe said:
So he has a higher body count than Joker who last I saw was around 900 
The Joker body cunt is much higher then that. I'ed say he's killed more people then Castle, if you count police and his own henchmen.
Joker's killed no way near 50,000 people.
Its not even really about the kill count, but how damaging the kills are.
You made a claim about "body count", a quantitive claim.
And I don't believe either Joker or Castle have killed that many people.
#46 Posted by John Valentine (16335 posts) - - Show Bio
@NightFang said:
@John Valentine said:
@NightFang said:
@John Valentine said:
@NightFang said:
@joshmightbe said:
So he has a higher body count than Joker who last I saw was around 900 
The Joker body cunt is much higher then that. I'ed say he's killed more people then Castle, if you count police and his own henchmen.
Joker's killed no way near 50,000 people.
Its not even really about the kill count, but how damaging the kills are.
You made a claim about "body count", a quantitive claim.
And I don't believe either Joker or Castle have killed that many people.
Argue with the writers, then.
#47 Posted by Aiden Cross (15526 posts) - - Show Bio

Well if we go by Frank's Comicvine page it says his birthday is in 1950 which makes him 61 years old. (bit old but let's just say it's true for the sake of theory.) That would be about 2 kills a day. Which in Franks case i can definitely see being true.

#48 Posted by Omega Ray Jay (7968 posts) - - Show Bio

That count does seem a little ridiculous. I'm sorry but i've lost interest in the Punisher these days more a Moon Knight fan (not so much the new series though)

#49 Posted by Bionder (282 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm quite surprised because there is someone who has patience to make this count

#50 Posted by cody1984 (1277 posts) - - Show Bio

@Bionder said:

I'm quite surprised because there is someone who has patience to make this count

Yeah that is something. It makes you wonder if marvel keeps tracks of how many people a character kills.

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