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@picard:

Infinite Crisis. Joker destroyed Ace, and killed the rest of the Royal Flush gang. In his first appearance, Ace took on Martian Manhunter and Captain Marvel at the same time, iirc, after laying out Booster Gold.

Which little boy did Joker struggle against? Because I don't think Rorschach could take any of the Robins in a fight. Not one of them. Even Spoiler's feats put her above Rorschach.

I'm assuming, based on the images and the OP stating the characters know each other, that we're using pre reboot versions.

I'm thinking Starfire wins. While Raven can potentially win, she's fragile and he soul self doesn't last long without her body and it isn't as fast as Kory or Donna.

Kory has proven herself a better hand to hand fighter than Donna and in the same weight class in terms of physical power. Her range attacks are a further advantage, particularly because Donna's bracer's aren't as powerful as Diana's. She won't be able to fully block starbolts.

Is "real" Amazo able to copy the powers of robots and androids?

Amazo has been soloed by the likes of Superman and Black Adam. I don't think it's a stretch to call Brainiac a threat to him.

DCnU scans of modern Aquaman that prove he's even in Hercules's weight class? Anything Hawkman can even do here?

I'm not super familiar with the new versions of the DC guys but Hercules wouldn't have much trouble with the New Earth versions.

Ooooooh a swat team. Very impressive that Rorschach ALMOST didn't lose to a swat team.

Let me know the next time Rorschach dismantles someone capable of throttling the Martian Manhunter.

I'm personally of the opinion that not all things need sequels or prequels. Some things are fine with the ending they got and other things continue on and on until they're far worse as a whole than they would have been if the creators had just stopped while they were ahead.

I don't know if Before Watchmen is any good but I have no interest in reading it.

Good to know, though.

Oh? He handles a midget, a few thugs and a few cops in Watchmen but when he takes on actual trained fighters, he gets his but handed to him. Joker kills thugs and cops left and right, too. Nothing in Watchmen shows Rorschach to be a better fighter or planner than the Joker.

Maybe he does something impressive in Before Watchmen but you're replying to a 3 year old comment so the series doesn't apply.

In response to OP's original question, Flash is problematic because the story often calls for him to trip at the starting line (as explained above) whereas the battle forum calls for no "Plot Induced Stupidity." Having the Flash get dropped at the start of a fight scene or asking a bad guy to surrender only to get blasted is fine when the goal is to tell a good story. But when the goal is to logically look at the DC universe and decide how powerful a character is? It's "stupid" because the Flash shouldn't be effing up all the time.

So, battle forum Flash is basically taking the character on his best day, treating him as if logic defined his history, not the whims of writers and throwing out every fight where he would have won if only he had tried harder or been more careful.

That makes him a way bigger threat than he is in the comics.

So would Flash beat down someone like Thanos with infinite mass punches and speed steals in the comics? No. Absolutely not. (Which isn't to say Flash wouldn't win if that fight took place in the comics.) Would Flash beat down Thanos with IMP and speed steal If both characters were real and didn't have to win or lose based on a writer's attempt to tell an interesting story? Yes.

Wally West KOed Zum the white martian (for all intents and purposes, a being on par with J'onn Jones) in one punch in Morrison's JLA #2 or 3 by hitting him so hard he reached escape velocity.

Wally also defeated the original Mongul in Waid's Flash #102 by punching him into unconsciousness. It is worth noting that in For the Man Who Has Everything, Wonder Woman punched Mongul and only succeeded in hurting her hands.

In New Titans #3, Kid Flash (again, Wally) beat up Hal Jordan a bit.

During John's Flash run (not going to look up the issue right now), he also handled Cheetah just fine and stated that he could steal Superman's speed but wouldn't because it would be "like tossing a person out of a moving car" and it would have caused Supes to cause a skid mark of destruction from Kansas to Paris.

Without reading the whole thread, the main criticisms I'm seeing of Flash are

1) He's not that powerful and

2) His enemies are street levelers.

I think Flash is exactly as powerful as he is stated to be on this website (effing very powerful). The issue is more that Flash is incompetent due to necessity. Like Superman, Flash is insanely powerful. Unlike Superman, Flash does not have a lineup of planet busters lining up to fight him or a convenient weakness to allow any old villain to give him a run for his money if the plot demands it. Superman can "forget" that he has super speed if you want to give the rest of the Justice League something to do or if you want say...Darkseid (who seemingly has no super speed) to give him a good fight. Super speed is the Flash's main thing.

So, if you want to write a Justice League story where the Flash doesn't just beat up all the bad guys at the start of the fight scene or if you want to write a Flash story where the villain initially wins and the hero has to come up with a smarter way to go about defeating him (these are both super common story elements), you need the Flash to trip at the starting line. How many times has Flash ran straight at danger and got his butt handed to him? Happens all the time because the alternative is BORING and boring doesn't sell.

So if you want to say the Flash isn't that powerful, I'd say you're wrong. If you want to say he's not that good in a fight because he just doesn't pay very good attention and is way too sure of himself and his acceleration is a bit overstated, then I'd agree.

As for Flash not being powerful because he fights Captain Boomerang and Heat Wave....well, Batman fights Crazy Quilt and Superman has Roxy Rocket. They're not dangerous or competent but nobody thinks that fighting them makes Batman and Superman weak. Like those villains, Captain Boomerang and Heat Wave don't actually put up a good fight against the Flash. They're not in his weight class. Generally, they attack him as part of a group of 4 or 5 villains and Flash is something like 49 for 50 against each of them. Even weak villains get lucky every once in awhile, especially back in the Silver Age.

I'll politely suggest that anyone saying Flash isn't powerful because he fights Captain Boomerang just doesn't read much in the way of Flash comics.