WillPayton's forum posts

#1 Posted by WillPayton (9461 posts) - - Show Bio

Does anybody remember the article about scientists testing to see if we're two dimensional?

Are you talking about the idea that the universe might be a hologram?

#2 Posted by WillPayton (9461 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol, people still b!tch!n' about the big bang.

Well, whenever something like this comes up, some people who know nothing about the subject come out of the woodwork to tell everyone how science is a huge conspiracy and that such and such theory is all wrong... the Big Bang, Evolution,... you name it. Normally it's a bunch of Creationists or other nuts who think that some supernatural entity magically created the universe 6,000 years ago.

#3 Posted by WillPayton (9461 posts) - - Show Bio

@van_cere said:

@willpayton: a theory is not just an idea; it is a hypothesis, and educated guess. The BB theory is called a theory simply because it is an educated guess and not a fact. Man can time travel, If you push the atoms of a broken glass 180 degrees back! you can fix it. All theories, because none of then has ever been tested, and actually proven true. You merely posted the ideas, and not the results of testing.

And just because almost everyone agrees to one THEORY does not make it right. The moon is flat and perfectly round. That was a theory made long ago, and everyone believed him then (even though back then you could look up and see it is not true, but you get what I am selling); keep an open mind, all scientists know that nothing in science is a fact, certainly not something as big as this.

Saying the universe expands by using galaxies relations as evidence is not something people would normally do. It could be just the ones we see; the universe might also be infinite, or finite. We do not know.

A theory is not just a hypothesis... that's why those two are different words. A theory, like I already said, is a comprehensive explanation that incorporates many facts and many lines of evidence, and has been throughly supported by testing, observations, and scrutiny from peer-review over time. Theories like the BB, evolution, quantum mechanics, etc, have so much support that they are indeed accepted as fact by the scientific community.

Now, you may disagree with it or not believe it, and that's your right. But, unless you have some evidence or rational argument to support such a claim and disproves all the evidence for these theories... then you really have nothing. Just pointing at some crackpot over and over is meaningless. Not only is it not evidence of anything, but I can point to the entire world of astrophysics and evidence to contradict it.

I really fail to see why people who are laymen in a complex topic like astronomy and cosmology feel qualified to pass judgement on scientific consensus. Reading a wikipedia article about some astronomer that had a crackpot idea does not make you an expert on the subject or qualified to tell others who are that they are wrong.

#4 Edited by WillPayton (9461 posts) - - Show Bio
@van_cere said:

@mollydanger2210: watch your language, insulting other debaters is not permitted here. Prove your argument with evidence and fact, not insults. @WillPayton: the BB theory is just a theory man, as is everything else. The difference is credit, and popular accepted belief. But maybe you guys are getting off topic

I think I'm done talking to @mollydanger2210. He's more interested in spouting his conspiracy theory and less in learning something. In fact, a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Saying that the Big Bang Theory is "just a theory" implies that it's just someone's idea. This might be the popular use of the word "theory", but it's not the scientific use. In science a theory is a comprehensive explanation for something in nature which has been supported by so much evidence that it's in effect considered a fact. This category... is where the BB Theory falls.

There's really no question in the scientific community that the BB Theory is correct and accurately explains the expansion of the universe... which is a fact. It is not someone's opinion, it's not a conspiracy, or any of that nonsense.

Now on to the claim that there is no expansion because quasars are not actually distant objects, but rather are ejected from nearby galaxies. This is just not supported by the evidence. There was even a study of data from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey where the authors compared the data versus various models, including that supported by Arp. Here is a link to the paper, or at least you can read the abstract. This is a graph from the paper:

The circles represent the data, locations of quasars and galaxies near each other. The solid line represents the best fit to the data... a random distribution. The other dotted lines represent other models, including that proposed by Arp. As you can see, the idea that quasars are objects ejected from galaxies is shot down quickly. The authors own words say this: "We also analyze the periodicity in redshifts of QSOs [quasars], and no periodicity is found in high-completeness samples, contrary to the DIR model. These results support the hypothesis that QSOs are not ejected from active galaxies."

Like I already said before, the evidence for the expansion of the universe is extremely compelling, which is why almost all astronomers consider it a fact and a settled matter. The notion that there's somehow a conspiracy to hide this is just ridiculous. I really cant think of another word for it. Not only is it ignorance, but it's extreme arrogance to think that without knowing anything about a field you are qualified to tell those who are experts and have devoted their lives to studying something that they are liars and idiots.

I'm not saying that everyone here needs to go out and pour through the observational data themselves, although you could do that. But, just use your head. What's more likely... that some conspiracy theorist invoking a discredited crackpot is right and all scientists are involved in some huge conspiracy for no reason, or that scientists actually know what they're doing and are telling the truth? Remember, all it takes to shoot down the conspiracy would be ONE of the tens of thousands of astronomers in the world to come clean. But, that hasnt happened. And, it wont happen because it's a load of bullshit.

#5 Posted by WillPayton (9461 posts) - - Show Bio
#6 Posted by WillPayton (9461 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton said:

@mollydanger2210 said:

@trickshot: See, this is what I'm talking about. The Earth being in the perfect position it is in to support biological units is ASSUMED to be an accident, it's not a fact by any margin, it's what certain people want to believe. This idea that life in the universe is scarce and rare is all built around this assumption of chance that has absolutely no factual validity.

The universe is also NOT expanding, a scientist named Halton Arp discovered this and lost his job because of it. The orthodoxy must keep up the pretence at all costs. (This means the big bang is bull#$@t) it's no accident you've probably never heard of him.

@mollydanger2210 said:

@trickshot: New discoveries in science are not welcome if they rock the boat and disturb the orthodoxies consensus science, that's why Halton Arp was fired and his discovery repressed.

And random guy on the internet? Who told you to take my word on It, we like in the internet age don't we? Just run his name through Google and youtube and you'll find he and his findings are very real.

This is a load of nonsense. The evidence for the metric expansion of space and the Big Bang is overwhelming, from the measured redshifts of distance objects to the cosmic microwave background. Pretty much everything we see at extremely long distances confirms this. Trying to say it's not because some crackpot said so is just ridiculous and ignorant.

Typical, brainwashed drone response. Fierce and immediate defence of the orthodoxies propaganda without even the slightest hint of curiosity or critical investigation into the proposed ideas or individual of discussion. How long would it have taken to type Halton Arps name into Google? But of course, being as religiously devout as you are to the paradigms of conventional orthodox science, you would never do something as heretical as question them or give any of your time to an already disgraced and renounced heretic like Arp, who dared to tell them they were full of you know what. What great faith you have in your priests.

As for Halton himself, that "crackpot" as you called him, he was an astronomer (deceased now) with a bachelor's degree from Harvard University, a PhD from Caltech and then "became a Fellow of the Carnegie Institution of Washington in 1953, performing research at the Mount Wilson Observatory and Palomar Observatory. Arp became a Research Assistant at Indiana University in 1955, and then in 1957 became a staff member at Palomar Observatory, where he worked for 29 years. In 1983 he joined the staff of the Max Planck Institute for Astrophysics in Germany."

Here are some notable awards that the "crackpot" Arp received during his life:

"In 1960, Arp was awarded the Helen B. Warner Prize for Astronomy by the American Astronomical Society, a prize "normally awarded annually for a significant contribution to observational or theoretical astronomy during the five years preceding the award."

In the same year, Arp was awarded the Newcomb Cleveland Prize for his address, "The Stellar Content of Galaxies", read before a joint session of the American Astronomical Society and AAAS Section D.[17]

In 1984, he was awarded the Alexander von Humboldt Senior Scientist Award."

It's amazing isn't it, that such a highly educated man as Arp with a lifetime of great scientific work and achievement with professional and important institutions is suddenly FIRED from his job, portrayed as an incompetent and promptly forgotten by the mainstream scientific community for questioning the expansion theory of the universe and the Big Bang. Hmmm, I don't know but that seems like HARD-LINE scientific censorship to me, or maybe I'm just crazy?

Is this your entire basis for claiming that what all of science and astronomy says is a fact is actually wrong and some kind of conspiracy? It sounds like you're the one suffering from belief in religion and propaganda. The science and the data are conclusive, and only someone given to conspiracy theories and unwilling to educate themselves would believe otherwise. You apparently can use google, but are somehow unable to actually look up the data on the subject that you criticize.

For all the awards and whatnot that this guy had, it adds a grand total of ZERO to whether his ideas were true or not. For every one of him I can point to ten thousand scientists who disagree with him, and many of them with better credentials and track records.

In any case, I have actually studied this and looked at the data. Saying that the expansion of the universe and the Big Bang theory are false is just ignorant.

#7 Posted by WillPayton (9461 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@mrdecepticonleader said:

Eh it is all fiction anyway..

I know what your getting at but alot of the events in the bible did actually happen- The War between Assyria and Palestine territories, Sacking of Jerusalem and Samaria etc.

Personally I prefer the Old Testament. Some of the stories are really funny, in a morbid way anyway :P

Lots of fictional stories have actual historical events in them. Spider-Man comics have real-life events in them.

We can discuss history, or we can discuss fiction. The Bible is simply a combination of both. The problem comes when people cant tell the difference.

At the end of the day it's fruitless to discuss the actions and motivations of fictional people based on a work of fiction. With the Bible, especially so. At least if we were discussing the actions and motivations of Harry Potter, or Gandalf, or Spider-Man, everyone would (presumably) agree that they are fictional people. No one would be offended because they have a "personal relationship" with Harry Potter.

#8 Posted by WillPayton (9461 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: MMH

Round 2: The Doctor

#9 Posted by WillPayton (9461 posts) - - Show Bio

@trickshot: See, this is what I'm talking about. The Earth being in the perfect position it is in to support biological units is ASSUMED to be an accident, it's not a fact by any margin, it's what certain people want to believe. This idea that life in the universe is scarce and rare is all built around this assumption of chance that has absolutely no factual validity.

The universe is also NOT expanding, a scientist named Halton Arp discovered this and lost his job because of it. The orthodoxy must keep up the pretence at all costs. (This means the big bang is bull#$@t) it's no accident you've probably never heard of him.

@trickshot: New discoveries in science are not welcome if they rock the boat and disturb the orthodoxies consensus science, that's why Halton Arp was fired and his discovery repressed.

And random guy on the internet? Who told you to take my word on It, we like in the internet age don't we? Just run his name through Google and youtube and you'll find he and his findings are very real.

This is a load of nonsense. The evidence for the metric expansion of space and the Big Bang is overwhelming, from the measured redshifts of distance objects to the cosmic microwave background. Pretty much everything we see at extremely long distances confirms this. Trying to say it's not because some crackpot said so is just ridiculous and ignorant.

#10 Edited by WillPayton (9461 posts) - - Show Bio

I must admit,I am one of the biggest Galactus fans out there.Yet after 40 years I don`t know anything about this Mordru guy.Any info from a true fan will be very helpful.Honestly don`t know how I missed it?

@beatboks1