wbr17's forum posts

#1 Posted by wbr17 (345 posts) - - Show Bio

Sozin comet

During Sozin Comet Iroh created a fire circle just by breathing and later with little motion of his arm he transformed this fire in a fireball floating in front of him. He never showed this technique/ability before. So, I have a reason to think that Sozin Comet also affect skills, maybe the amp is so great that some impossible techniques can be done because the bender is extremely more powerful.

Fire wall

Jeong-Jeong created the wall in "The deserter" but the boats stopped before they hit it, so we can't say that it would block them, it could easily only put them on fire. The only time that it moves tanks is during Sozin Comet. I still don't think that he can put a wall that easily as you assume, but let pretend he can, there is no way we can know how large and tall it would be, it's plausible that with the motion of his hands it would create something as large and tall as a human being, no fire bender has ever created so big wall as you want with a single gesture. Azula has blocked a wave made by Katara, but that take more time and movement that what you are implying. Zhao passed through because he fire bended, as Azula can do it too if she wants.


Kai took a direct hit from her and didn't die. Tenzin took an indirect one and continued to fight. Druk has no feats, we don't know how durable he is.


Ok, she invented the metal-bending but we can't give her all feats of metal-bending because of that. Also, "earth jumping" is different from "metal jumping", with earth your jump goes high depending on the amount of earth you dislocate in the form of a column, with metal it depends on the material "flexibility". Toph can be a great bender but the material is a limitation to her. Again, no feats to back that claim and you are assuming that Nyla and her can jump a considerable distance.


You still fail to point out how your team can react fast enough to avoid Appa when nobody has done that before. Appa is more durable than anything that P'Li has ever shot. He is using his armor that blocked multiple fire attacks without problem. It's difficult to hit Appa. Azula can block P'li as Zuko blocked CM.


Sure some have blocked her projectiles but also she hit, pinned, disarmed several fire nation soldier, earth kingdom soldier, Kyoshi warriors, fire nation separatists (comics "rebound"), Katara as well. The thing is that she can hit multiple targets with a really fast attack, this will force your team to take a defensive stance. She can hit Jeong-Jeong faster than he can raise his wall, so he continues the motion he will die, also, P'li doesn't have a defensive movement and has little to no reflex feat, and she can't shoot while in movement and she will need to move to avoid Mai attack. So, with Mai attack we'll have the window to Appa blast you all out of the platform.

Azula can use her lightening as well. In the comics "The search" she uses it as fast as Mako. That is one more thing that your team will need to be concerned with.

I think that a made clear that my team has more chance to attack you first but i'll leave it to the voters. I'll assume that your plan worked and show its flaws.

Your Plan

So there is this fire wall coming at me, Jeong-Jeong, P'Li and Amom are behind it. Nyla and Toph are way behind in the stands. Suki is alone in the lower level of the platform.

My team is behind the wall hide from your team because the firewall blocks their sight. So we jump on Appa and fly low to avoid your attacks and try a sneak attack. As soon we do that we spot Suki by herself. My team can easily take her in inumerous forms but the easiest one is Yakone bloodbends her throwing Suki in the water, Azula follows electrocuting her. One less, five more to go. No other member of your team can see it happening.

Now, moving on. Ming-Hua and Lin can go spiderman in the middle platform, below your team, they can cover that distance very fast. While they do that the others still on Appa. Now there will be another coordinated attack. Appa appears flying while Mai and Azula shoot drawing the attention, and from nowhere (or anywhere: side, behind, top) Ming-Hua and Lin appear. Ming-Hua can kill P'li with her tendrils that pierce steel, freeze her head like Katara did to Cm or slap her out of the platform, we know how fast is Ming-Hua when she get her momentum, so there is no way to P'li avoid it. Lin metal cables will restrain Jeong-Jeong in a way that he won't even see it coming, without his arms he can't do anything, so Lin can drop him on water or let him useless on the ground. Once one of them hit the water Azula electrocutes. Yakone will be there to block Amon, Yakone is a stronger bender that Amon, also we saw that a much weaker bender (Tarrlok) slow down Amon with his bending, so at least it's what will happen giving enough time to Mai projectile hit him and kill. Toph and Nyle can't do anything, they are to distant and Toph can't see anything.

At last we are going for the stands, 6 vs 2. Appa alone can take down Nyla as he has done before while the other can gang on Toph. She is good but not that good. Or Yakone can easily blood bend her and we kill her before we take Nyla.

@lunacyde That's it. In any case the fight will take less than 5 minutes.

#2 Edited by wbr17 (345 posts) - - Show Bio


Here is the airship. I can only see metal, am I missing something?

You can see the fight between Tarrlok and Korra again, most of his attacks missed and Korra wasn't doing much, most of them she was stand still.

If CM explode the explosives it can backfire him, it'll create a bigger explosion and bigger and bigger (like a napalm, sort of) that he won't have control, so it has the possibility to explode your team. About Toph claim, he still shot multiple times and the temple did not crumble, maybe he could do it like the wind can level a mountain.

King Bumi blocked just one stream of fire with no concussive force, it's a good feat but not the same case here.


Asami make turns, dodge and all, that I know. I'm saying that she never flew in a continuous small circles around and around. She needs to do something like that to keep close to your team, if she can't eventually she will fly to a place distant to your team so she can make a wider turn to go back to your base.

To CM shot us down Asami needs to fly in a straight line with no variation of movement, otherwise it'll happen like the time when Zuko dropped on CM, his aim was lost and the explosion went to a complete different direction, the same happened to P'Li when attacked by Kai. So while she flies like take, it'll make easier to my team to take it down.

Appa will be flying at the same speed of the plane so it'll be easier to hit your team than it was to Eska and Desna, way more easy. Also we will have enough range to do all the attacks needed, just one actually.


We never saw a dragon carrying more than 2 persons at the same time, and we never saw someone bending riding a dragon. So we don't know if carrying more than 2 persons will hinder his flying ability or not.

Tarrlok isn't a psychic bender, he never bended without using his arms. And while King Bumi can bend with his face there is nothing that implies that he can do everything he can with just his face, so we can't assume that he can ride a dragon that high and bring rocks and throw them neither.

Zuko claims

Zuko also said that every Red Lotus member could beat any other bender alone, and them together would destroy the world. We know what happened after that. So I can't believe in everything he says.

@arcus Can we start talk about post eruption battle?

#3 Posted by wbr17 (345 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that once that Vaatu was destroyed he will reborn inside of Raava, right? And Raava is bonded to the Avatar, so I think that from that moment the avatar can go evil.

#4 Posted by wbr17 (345 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik: No, I didn't. I'll post here tomorrow, I guess.

#5 Edited by wbr17 (345 posts) - - Show Bio

All right, here it goes. Quotes and Scans. The English might be a little off but I hope you can understand. Anyway, you can use a translator if you don't believe in my translation, or any other viner that knows Portuguese can say if it's ok.


Fables #90 page 16

1) Ozma: "Our first order of the day should be about information. We have none. We know almost nothing of our new adversary. I think we should fix this by building a network of detection spells, first only the passive."

2) Ozma: "Let us examine this magical field. measure it. and decompose it to its component parts. if possible, explore its nature and qualities."

Fables #90 page 17

Ozma: "I would hesitate to risk you even if it had the slightest chance that he will be able to find you."

Maddy: "Ozma, unwittingly to brag too much, there is no power in this or any world that can notice me, once I decided I do not want to be noticed."

Fables # 94 page 16

Captions (Maddy): "Dear Ozma, I am, as promised, alive and safe in the bullfinch street. Mister dark did not notice me, but it was close, it took every atom of deception, trickery and acumen I possess to escape his perception. His power is amazing. Lurking in the shadows against the one who is, at its most fundamental level, the very essence of the shadows seem too daring."

To make things clear, my team won't do the search we can use all the Fables and our resources to do that for us.

Here is me showing that they can create a spell network to gather information, they can analyse your team power and how maddy can go unnoticed between your team to check them out. More them that there is the Magic Mirror that can see everything in everywhere, he doesn't need to move just look, also we can use fable birds to watch you from the skies and Zephyr creatures made of pure wind that even Boreas, The North Wind had difficulty to detect. I need to say that Mister Dark was able to detect things while he was in another universe, actually there was many universe between him and the said object.

I also want to point out that we don't need to go to Akasha, you are saying like all the serie takes place in there, I believe there are informations about the heroic spirits and all in their universe/planet.


Fables #67 pages 7/8/9

1-2) King Flycatcher: "Go between your military wizards and see if any of them can still conjure up the smallest of spells or charms. In my kingdom no magic can work beyond mine..."

3) Rose Red: "If it is true that no magic can work in the realm of Fly except his, How could you be able to go back and forth from there with the witching cloak?"

Boy Blue: "I asked it to Fly on my last visit. He said that he allowed the cloak to function..."

4) Fables #68 page 5 - caption (Boy Blue): "but the great dragons lost all their power as they approached the realm of fly. Their terrible fire was extinguished, while their wings lost strength."

3) Fables #69 page 8 - King Flycatcher: "...Now I have the immeasurable powers of the magic groove at my disposal ... nobody can put your feet on my land or fly over them without my permission."

2) Fables #77 page 8 - Frau Totenkinder: "Spells do not work when you do not have a source of power to make them work. And you have no power in my group, unless I allow it. I cut all your ties with outside sources. Until you learn to behave."

1) Fables #99 page 21 - Bellflower: "Magic yearning. This is the raw material of the chaos that wants order. He wants to be formed, shaped and channeled. It takes time to be built - to become something. This is why it is not enough that the wind exists. It is necessary to create a physical embodiment, sentient with sensations of wind. Also the suffering and the shadow should become a living thing of flesh and ambition. And so on..."

As you can see my team can nullify you power. I need to say that Frau Totenkinder and Bellflower is the same Fable, just different forms. Scans of Flycatcher nullifying warlocks, stating and showing that he need to allow powers to work in his presence, there is he blocking even a dragon strength. Bellflower (Frau) nullifying powerful magical users. The last one is Bell defining magic, basicly everything is magic, even the wind, the darkness, the emotions... so she taps in the basic material of everything to use magic. The final scan is just to say that no matter how you call your power Kei/Prana it will be blocked.


Fables #86 pages 11/21

1) Dunster Happ: "She has at least three times the holding capacity of the old models. And its appeal is more persuasive. BabaYaga may be surprised to discover that she actually wants to enter in this box."

2) caption (Mister Dark): "And then I realized, as if for the first time, a place to shelter me. Was calling me, continually offering its protection, its towers and bastions. A mighty fortress within which I could rest and regain my strength. I went madly seeking only a quick break before proceeding to my attacks against boxers. It was then that I realized the truth the first time, well ahead of its lid beats locking me. There was no grand castle, it was just a box. A small and simple stone box."

Mister Dark, one the most powerful beings in Fables was attracted to the trap. You can see him tanking like it was nothing attacks from centuries old experienced warlocks that were trained to fight against him. At this time he was fighting against whole army of magic users like that. He has defeated many others armies before and resisted other attraction spell. Notice that it's a box but he sees a complete different thing but it's not exactly an illusion spell.


Fables #6 page 6 and Fables #8

1) Snow white: "We like to keep it here remote, far from prying eyes. Our strongest spells of distraction are released on these lands to prevent the mundys from becoming curious about this area."

2) One of the things that they hid for centuries on the Farm.

Fables #25 page 9 and Fables #26

1-3) things that they hid during a battle in the middle of New York.

4) Snowwhite: "...Unfortunately, yours considerable powers will be need in a more vital way. Even if we win the battle, we still lose everything if the mundys discover anything of what is about to occur. I will not allow it. I spent too many years to build Fabletown to lose everything now. Your only job is to prevent the mundys to perceive or remember anything that happens here in the next few days."

We can see how powerful are their spells. In other time Mister Dark could not detect them. That's impressive because he can detect thing in other universes, he is the shadow, the darkness and the fear, he is everywhere those things are.

Witching Well

Fables #62 page 21

King Flycatcher: "This is the witching well. It destroys and devour..."

That's the Witching Well. And a quote from Flycatcher in other issue. It's powered by Mister Dark and send the soul to an underworld. It can be moved because he existed first in the Homelands and later was moved to New York.

@theorder14 Here it is. Now, following your logic we need to see scans of your team resisting power that can nullifying theirs, having shields that blocks attacks/damage won't work. We need scans of your team sense things through powerful concealment spells like those, they resisting attraction spells that worked in omnipotent characters. You also need to back your claims that they aren't affected by extremely cold weather, not dieing by bleeding isn't the same, neither not dieing by toxic environment, can you back up your claim that their shield is as powerful as GL's?

Every time a Fable gained a new power or a boost they started to use it like they always have it. They are natural in that regard. We will have no problem with our stats boost.

My bad, I thought that we start in front of our bases, you're right we start in the base. The idea always was to set traps outside the base. But the ice minions and ghosts can go their instantly, my team too by teleport if you can't counter the nullification you are going to die as it starts.

#6 Posted by wbr17 (345 posts) - - Show Bio

@theorder14 I see you are using quotations as a way to prove your statements and some random screenshots, good, I'll do some quotations too and point the issues. Give me time to translate all.

#7 Posted by wbr17 (345 posts) - - Show Bio

@theorder14 I only have access to Fables comics in Portuguese , so if I get scans they will be in Portuguese, so I don't think it'll be useful.


My team has 7 days to work with. The Magic Mirror knows everything, he can see everywhere, he can foresee things, also we can travel through universes easily, so my team can travel to yours and collect all the intel they need. The 13th witches can detect your team and study their energies/powers, we can send fables to stalk you and analyse everything. With all that, I believe that my team can at least have basic knowledge about your entire team.


Again, we have 7 days before the fight to set them, you won't be there while we do that. And you need to say how can you avoid to be attracted to them when the most powerful beings on fables universe that also have magic resistance in a higher level couldn't, also how would you detect them when our concealment spells could avoid that people realized that a battle was happening in the streets of New York and neither a high level magical being could detect their presence. Also, the magic traps can hinder your team, they don't need to kill but you don't presented defense against The Witching Well complete destroyer power.


It doesn't matter if someone survived to the heat that would melt someone, heat resistance is different of cold resistance, a polar bear can survive in cold temperature but not in a desert. I just because someone is magical doesn't give them resistance to cold, if they never faced something similar to that we can't assume than can resist.


I might have understood something wrong about your team powers, you can correct me. I read that Saber has dragon blood and that give her a boost that set her apart from other characters, and I understand that prana is the magic energy after it pass by the magic circuits, and the magic source can be the mana (outside) and Ob (inside). Psyren is a technique to utilize all capacities of the brain. Kei is a energy that someone has inside of them.

Bellflower needs to know the source to block them, and I believe that she will know after my team prep research. But Flycatcher doesn't need to, he is a high level magic user but he isn't a wizard or anything he is a natural user. In Fables there are a lot of different sources of power, for example, Bellflower sacrifices children, Flycatcher is divine, Mister Dark is pure darkness and fear... Flycatcher blocked Mister Dark's power and he is way above anyone here, blocked a dragon power, even his ability to fly with its wings, he returned wooden soldiers made of the most powerful source back to trees and removed the spell that made them loyal to the enemy. So it's clear that he can block power even within a character, even biological source of power. He also can block one of the most powerful items on the Fables universe so he can do it to with your kaleidostick, and the noble ghosts (they are itens according to the wiki, is it right?).

Just to compare. In comics we have seen a lot of times characters that are aliens or mutants having their powers nullified.

And a force field that block attacks doesn't secure your team against other types of magic. Have they ever faced someone that could deny their powers? And if the wiki is correct, Saber has magic resistance but it can be break by high level magic, what it's the case of Bellflower and Flycatcher.


It's well known that Djinns can do whatever you wish them to do. So there is no problem in concede a wish to maximyze my team physical stats. It' not OP, it would be if I asked for immunity against your team, sent the Djinn to kill you or if I got stats higher than the tourney limit. Oh, and I just figure out something, we have 3 wishes, we can use one of them to get full wiki knowledge about your team.

So my team will be stronger and faster than your team, no weaklings.

Ice minions

They are just fodder but they went toe-to-toe against shadow creatures, spectres, fiends. Also Lumi can keep creating them but I'll assume that she can do it to the maximum limit of copies of the tourney (200 or 100, I don't remember) and her constructs can regenerate in second, so she can keep regenerating them. They will be a distraction and a way to weary your team. They'll be worst if you can't use your powers. Can your guy use that technique without Kei? Just keep in mind that your team is also fighting against the environment condition and trying to avoid those traps somehow, and I didn't factor my team yet.

Trapping your base

Your team starts outside your base, my instant assault will split your team, while they are busy fighting Flycatcher and Bellflower will teleport to your base (inside) and do their thing. They will be safe there. No risk. The barrier will be up instantly. I'm doing that because it's how I'll capture your base and win, you won't be able to reach neither sense your own base as you can't do with mine as well.

Phantom attack

To bring something new, Flycatcher is able to do multiple tasks without problem. He can send an army of ghosts to attack your team, attacking from inside messing with their minds, emotions, souls. That can happen while they are fighting against the minions or while they are passing by some trap, what would make things worst to your team. I know you will say that Amamiya can counter that with her powers, but you need to counter the nullifying first, later you need to argue how she will have time to do that before my instant attack, considering that she doesn't know her team members and they didn't have time to talk with each other. Does she do that in character as soon as the battle starts? Morals off isn't the same as out of character, just mean that they are willing to kill and do bad things.

Team members

Boy Blue, Bigby Wolf and Lumi are there too.

Boy Blue can just teleport in and use the vorpal sword to kill with one blow, he has more chance to win with his amped stats and senses. He can take the form of one of your team members and pretend to help one of them and kill her/him while the guard is down. Blue can BFR some of them, he can BFR Layfon and drop him on water (the wiki says that he can't swim).

Lumi and Bigby can just join the fight there are very good in this, even better when they know the enemy, had time to make plans and with their amped stats. But I'll get to their abilities if necessary.


You are fighting against a coordinated and experienced team with plans and counter-plans against you in their home field where the environment and the landscape is fighting against you. We are faster, stronger, more durable and outnumber you. We're going to storm your base instantly explosion, ice army, ghost attack is happening right now at the same time. No time to breath, to talk or to think, just react.

#8 Posted by wbr17 (345 posts) - - Show Bio

@theorder14 I forgot to mention that Lumi, Boy Blue and Flycatcher have daredevil senses here. I edited my first post just to put it together with their summary.

Prep Time

I have one week of prep to work. My team will talk with the Magic Mirror, he will show everything about your team, we can see you and analyse them, the magic Mirror can see through universes. Also we can use other fables to gather information about your team, they can use bird and zephyrs, even Maddy, a witch specialized in tracking and hiding. That's how my team will have full wiki knowledge about your team.

With that intel, the witches of the 13th floor will start to analyse every detail about the power of your team, how it works and the source of their power.

Lumi and Flycatcher will establish their Kingdom in the Farm, that means that the battlefield will be covered by snow, it'll be extremely cold and with a continuous snowstorm. That will hinder your team senses, the cold will numb your tactile, the snowstorm your sight and hearing. Your movement and reaction can be difficult too. My team base has a mountain in front of it that already make it tougher to reach, with Lumi here the rocks will be covered with ice what will make even more difficult to your team to climb. (You'll have to prove that your team can handle that extreme environment.)

We are going to set a lot of traps around the battlefield, explosives, guns, holes, all kind of traps, those that will be covered by snow but also by concealment spell made by 13th witches, on top of that they'll add attraction spells to make your team go to those traps direction, also I want to note that we are going to infuse the traps with magic, so they can hurt the guy that is immune to normal weapons, to make things better, we can use "anti-dragon" magic on them to exploit Arthuria Pendagron (Saber) weakness. Our best trap will be the Witching Well that we are going to move to the farm, The Witching Well is a well capable to complete destroy everything that falls on it and send to an underworld. We are going to set a lot of explosives right at the starting point of your team, set to explode at the same moment that the battle begins. (You need to prove that your team can avoid all traps.) The witches will also create a diversion, concealment spell to cover my base so your team won't see it and won't get close to it. (You need to prove that you are going to be able to detect my base.)

Boy Blue will peek the Eastmark sword, a magical sword that is several magical sword in one, we are going to unite it to Boy Blue's Vorpal Sword. The Eastmark has some powers as transmutation, transformation and weaken, slowdown the opponent by touch. Flycatcher will copy all those power to him.

Flycatcher will use his new magic to unite his Unspoiled Knight armor with his Golden Knight one, both are magical, but the second cover all his body and is harder than diamond, the first he can use with excalibur. Also he'll drain all the magic of the Sacred Groove, the greatest source of raw magic in the Fables universe to add to his power. Flycatcher will copy the metamorphose power of the Witching Cloak (Boy Blue's cape). The King will also create a force field covering my base.

Bigby will take control over the winds of the farm and will demand them to work to him, that will translate in they flowing to my team noses so we can detect your team and taking away our scents so we gonna be undetected by your team sense of smell. He'll provide communicators to all of my team members.

Bellflower will give to everyone of my team a magical artifact that will protect them against illusions. She'll create a lot of spells. And right before the beginning of the battle the 13th witches will transfer their power to her.

Another important thing is that we're going to use one wish from a Djinn that is trapped in a bottle in the office to put all my team members stats in the limit of this tourney, that means all of them will have: Wonder Man strength and durability, Quicksilver speed and reflex and Wolverine healing factor.


First of all, Bellflower and King Flycatcher will nullify your team power, they will cut the connection of each of them with the source of their power. They have done that before, and it's a common tactic in Fables. Bellflower can block the power of the 13th witches, they are all very powerful magical users. Flycatcher has blocked Mister Dark a Great Power (conceptual entity with enormous power), nullified a dragon power (I'm looking for Saber here), the Blue Fairy mind power over the wooden soldier and it established that on his kingdom anyone power just works because he allows it. We can do that because we learn about Kei, Psyren, Magic Circuit, Prana and all of the sources of your team powers. If you can't counter that your team will rely on their tech and physical power alone. The nullifying happens in a instant, actually we can set that in the prep time.

As I said above there'll be a hell of explosion (magical, "anti-dragon") on your feets right at the beginning. That will hurt with the possibility to kill your team. But at least that will divide your team.

After the explosion an army of ice creatures will raise/be created surrounding every member of your team, they are Lumi's minions (ice giants, boreal spirits and crystal beings) that all have some of The Snow Queen power, that mean they can bring more cold, insta-freeze.

While your team are busy with my minions, Flycatcher will teleport with Bellflower to your base and they will create another force field with diversion/concealment spell, so only my team can see and have access to your base.

I think that's enough to begin with.

Your team don't know each other, they don't have a strategy because they didn't get prep time, as soon at it starts they'll be attacked so they won't even have time to talk with each other, they will be fighting alone against my team and the battlefield.

My team knows everything about each other and knows your team. We also know the battlefield, it's our home and nobody invade a Fable home, the entire series is about that lol.

#9 Edited by wbr17 (345 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice to see this battle. I did one between Freedom Fighters and Rough Rhinos but nobody answered =/

I think boys win, they can block Mai's projectiles and Longshot can hit the girls from a safe distance.

Bonus round is between Zuko and Jet. I'll say Jet because I want to lol

#10 Posted by wbr17 (345 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: lol so much assumptions and underestimating.


Actually every time that Appa attacks nobody has ever reacted in time to avoid it, you can see it plenty of time against different enemies (the deserter, lake laogai, Appa's lost days, the swamp, comics). You are the one that need to show the contrary. And Appa can airbend using his mouth, no need to move.

Nobody here will one shot him. He is very durable and has his armor on that tanked some fire attacks.

Fire wall

No, Jeong-Jeong has never shown to be able to create a fire wall with a mere gesture except while enhanced by Sozin Comet but that's not the case, so he will take a lot of time doing stances and hand gesture to put in up until you can prove it wrong. Also it's not my team will be sitting there watching, Mai can throw a really fast and accurate flurry of projectiles that will force your team to defend and Jeong-Jeong to stop his motion. In "the rift" comics we see that metal projectiles can pass through fire as well, so Jeong-jeong can easily be killed while trying to raise his wall.

Zhao could easily pass through Jeong-Jeong wall, Azula can do that with easy so it won't even bother my team if they don't want to move.

Appa could just pass through your wall like it was nothing and surprise attack everybody, scaring them all because that's the reaction of people when Appa attacks.


P'Li won't have visual if by some miracle Jeong-Jeong could raise his wall because the wall would block her view so my team would have cover to move without problem. Everybody can ride on Appa or the ones that can't get away by themselves can be helped by Ming-Hua and Lin.

Lin has evaded Zaheer attack so she can do it with P'li's as she has already done. It's not that hard to evade P'Li's attacks, it has a trace and little explosions that give away where and when it'll explode.


Yes, Toph has propelled with earth before but metal is way different. There is nothing to back your assumption, so I soon as she tries nothing will happen or both will hit the water.