@lvenger Glad you're enjoying it, L ;)
@cosmicallyaware1 Haha thanks man. Honestly that second post was a little rushed. I'd already had a busy morning and I was totally burned out after posting in ICFTW's tourney...
@lvenger Glad you're enjoying it, L ;)
@cosmicallyaware1 Haha thanks man. Honestly that second post was a little rushed. I'd already had a busy morning and I was totally burned out after posting in ICFTW's tourney...
Alright, awesome arguments from the opposing team. But now it's time to bring this debate into Round 2!
Regarding Cyborg Superman's technopathy tactics, I'll leave those for @comicstooge to counter, since Henshaw seems to be predominantly targeting Kang here. As for Henshaw's duplicates, I don't think they'll matter in the long run. Everything within Graviton's dome will weigh millions of tons in seconds, and Cyborg Superman's duplicates will just be crushed, as they're made of scrap metal.
But as for Cyborg Superman's sonic technology…now, you proposed that Henshaw would use this tactic to disrupt Graviton's focus. But there are two problems here. Problem One: You forgot that Kang was running interference for Graviton, and could very well preemptively destroy this technology beforehand (Back me up here, CS!).
Problem Two: Graviton is perfectly capable of manipulating sound. A tactic like that might have worked on Classic Graviton, but it certainly won't in this debate. Read Upgraded Graviton's entry in the Marvel Handbook, and allow me to quote the pertinent part of his bio:
"His power even affects forms of energy such as sound or light by manipulating their particles or waves - enabling him, for instance, to bend light waves to view distant locations".
In the scan below, Graviton is able to detect the radio waves from Mockingbird's Avengers communicator, and was able to easily redirect them towards the skies.
And in this next scan, Graviton effortlessly contains Scream - an entity made of solid sound - by creating a vacuum around him, permanently dispersing his sonic form.
So even if Cyborg Superman's sonic devices were to bombard Graviton with soundwaves, Graviton could either casually reflect them, or make the waves disappear into thin air. It'll barely even slow his concentration down. Plus, remember that Graviton is able to "perceive the entire world through its gravitational field, and he can manipulate gravity anywhere in the world regardless of his own location", as the Handbook puts it. There's no reason he can't just detect and crush Cyborg Superman's sonic machines with a wave of his hand.
And if all else fails, there's still that personal force-field of Graviton's ;)
Now as for Ronan, I do acknowledge that the Universal Weapon is an extremely potent and versatile weapon that’s not to be underestimated. You’ll note that the very first thing Graviton’s doing in this battle is to nullify it. For now, you’ve argued that Graviton’s tactic of making the Universal Weapon weigh millions of tons wouldn’t work due to the Weapon’s ability to manipulate gravity as well.
It’s a decent counterargument, but to retort, that strategy won’t work because the Weapon’s gravitational control is nowhere near Graviton’s. Namely, Graviton’s gravitational powers hold three advantages over Ronan’s Universal Weapon: power, speed, and sheer range.
You showed a scan of Ronan’s Weapon being able to BFR Nebula into the atmosphere by cancelling her gravity. But, unless there are other showings of this gravity-tech, there is nothing to suggest that Ronan’s Weapon matches Graviton in terms of sheer power. What Ronan did to Nebula was small-potatoes for someone with Franklin Hall’s abilities.
Even if we assume that Ronan’s Universal Weapon can make itself lighter to counter the effects of Graviton’s power, I doubt it’ll even be the least bit effective. Ronan’s hammer only showed the power to merely lower the gravity of a single individual in that scan. Graviton was able to simultaneously lift 35+ cities across the entire planet:
And as I showed earlier, Graviton’s degree of gravitational power was able to reshape a 500km stretch of the Moon’s surface. So unless Ronan’s hammer has shown this degree of gravitational power, its tech shouldn’t be even be able to slow Graviton making the Universal Weapon weigh millions of tons. Graviton’s power-level simply outclasses anything the Weapon could use to counter that.
You also argued that ‘who strikes first’ is debatable, but as I showed in my scans, Graviton clearly has the upper hand here. For one, Graviton is capable of flight (an advantage I believe Ronan does not possess), which grants him the ability to keep well out of Ronan’s range. And there’s also the fact that his flight speed is clearly supersonic, seeing as how Graviton is able to hit escape velocity and then return back to Earth in a matter of minutes:
But more importantly, Graviton can make the Universal Weapon weigh millions of tons before Ronan could even do anything. Ronan apparently needs to aim or get into combat range with Graviton in order to use powers like transmutation or a stasis field. On the other hand…Graviton doesn’t even need to see Ronan to work his magic.
As covered in several scans above, Graviton is capable of perceiving anything on the planet, and is able to affect any object’s gravity with a flick of his hand. I posted a scan where Graviton (while in the U.S.) was able to mentally pick a pebble from China and fly it all the way towards Australia. That’s an estimated 4600 meters of distance there.
But more importantly, Graviton was able to make the pebble reach Australia within seconds. That’s the speed at which Graviton’s powers work at. The moment the battle starts, after drawing up his shields, Graviton simply waves his hand. And Ronan’s hammer will immediately weigh millions of tons before the Kree Accuser can even do anything. In terms of power, Graviton is essentially quicker on the draw.
Based on the counterstrategies your team has put forth so far, I don’t think either one would seriously hamper Graviton’s efforts here. Hank’s sonic technology won’t mess with Graviton’s concentration, though whether or not he’ll be able to affect Kang is an argument I’ll leave for my partner. And as for Ronan, his Universal Weapon simply has no defenses against the scale and power of Graviton’s abilities. Within the first few seconds of the battle, Graviton will have nullified Ronan’s greatest advantage, and the weapon will be too heavy for Ronan to pick up. And then that would be that.
You're up, Kang the Conqueror.
@dccomicsrule2011 Apologies again for the late opener DCR, had a hell of a hectic morning today. But I'm here now - so let's get cracking. I don't know much about Star Wars, but your team seems like a good matchup, so this should prove interesting. All the best, and let's make this a fun one ;)
To start with, the first point I want to raise is teamwork. And in this, I freely admit that Omega Red and Venom have never worked together before. In the entire history of the Marvel Universe, these two villains haven’t crossed paths even once. But with all that said, the unfamiliarity isn’t going to stop Arkady and Eddie from being a lethal and efficient team. Why? Because both Omega Red and Venom are extremely capable team-players.
Omega Red has teamed up with fellow villains on multiple occasions to achieve a common goal. He’s joined forces with Sabretooth, Lady Deathstrike, the Hand, and Ivan Pushkin. And let’s not forget that he was also a former KGB operative as well as the one-time leader of the Russian Mafiya. Meaning that he understands the value of team tactics, and the advantage of having a comrade on your side.
And as for Venom, over the years, he’s teamed up with tons of characters as a result of his popularity. He’s worked with Carnage, Morbius, and even had a little bromance with Vengeance. In fact, Eddie once led an entire group of villains in a breakout attempt from the Vault; with baddies like Rhino, Electro, Moonstone and Klaw all under his command.
That’s before we even get to the heroes. Venom has teamed-up with Spider-Man (multiple times), Punisher, Wolverine, Nightwatch, all three Ghost Riders, and even a whole team of heroes during the events of Maximum Carnage. And long before Flash Thompson came around, Eddie Brock was already working for the government as a special-ops agent, to boot!
So what’s the point I’m trying to make, and how does it relate to this debate? It’s simple: both Omega Red and Venom have had ample experience with team-ups. Both of these characters have learned to improvise with new allies, and work efficiently together to achieve a common goal. And in this scenario – where both Arkady and Eddie know that their opponents are dangerous – history says, they’ll make an alliance.
As for your team, things might be different. Now, I’ll concede, my knowledge of SW is perfunctory at best. But as I understand it, Grievous & Durge aren’t exactly on amicable terms…considering Grievous decapitated and humiliated Durge before. If anything, your in-character team members should be hostile to each other.
But I’ll leave that for you to disprove. Though as it stands, it appears my team has an initial teamwork edge over yours.
Once the battle commences, the first thing that my team will do is locate their opponents as quickly as possible. With both their histories as government operatives, Eddie as well as Arkady will appreciate the importance of recon.
Venom will be the lead scout, and activate his camouflage before web-slinging up to the cargo ring at the center of the map. To note, Eddie’s webs are also invisible when he’s in camo form (as they’re also part of the symbiote). Anyway, once up there, Venom will then be able to easily mark your team’s location. With a bird’s eye view, invisibility, and his superior eyesight, this should be quick. Glowing lightsabers aren’t exactly subtle, after all.
Meanwhile, Omega Red will also be using his own tracking abilities on the ground to aid Venom. Thanks to his KGB training, Arkady is a seasoned tracker. In Origins, Wolverine trapped Arkady in a prison and fled, but was then kidnapped by Wild Child. Wild Child brought Logan to an abandoned factory in the middle of nowhere, yet Omega Red was still able to escape the prison and track them both down:
Funnily enough, neither Logan’s nor Wild Child’s enhanced senses were able to pick up Omega Red’s scent, at least until he made his dramatic entrance. And in the same issue, Omega Red was again able to track Logan to a warehouse, two whole days later.
Once my team has located yours, they’ll target their respective opponents. Omega Red will go for Durge, while Venom attacks General Grievous. I’ll go deeper into this section later on, as it depends on whether or not your team decides to stick together, or if they still hold their grudges and decide to split up.
But for now, I’ll simply be covering how both my team members will defeat both of yours.
For starters, the prime edge that Omega Red holds over Durge are the death spores. And the most important thing to keep in mind here is that in most battles, Red limits the usage of his spores. Especially when he goes up against superheroes, he rarely goes all-out with the spores, as he enjoys toying with his foes. He even admits this to Logan in an issue of Wolverine:
But here, up against an opponent whose capabilities he has pre-knowledge about, against a foe who won’t hold back from lethal attacks like the heroes…and against a foe as dangerous as Durge? There’s no reason for Arkady to mess around. I’m arguing that in this battle, Omega Red is going to unleash serious amounts of death spores.
So how lethal is this attack? Well for starters, let’s look at what the spores do to ordinary humans. Here, Omega Red is released from cryostasis by the Hand:
Instantly, his death spores activate, and all twenty Hand ninjas die within seconds. And it’s not that they get knocked out or that their bodies shut down – they literally burn up into nothing but ashes.
But here’s something even more interesting. There are also five technicians in there with hazmat suits, who know full-well what Omega Red’s spores can do, and so have prepared adequate protection. Or so they think. Yet even their special containment suits don’t stop the death spores from killing them! So I doubt Durge’s armor will be able to protect him here.
Still, I am aware that Durge has an extremely potent healing factor. I know he’s able to regrow limbs almost instantly and survive internal explosions with no problem. But how well would the Gen’Dai fare against a chemical-based attack? His body is still comprised of muscles and nerves, and a circulatory system, and a brain. All of which are areas that are susceptible to death spores.
Now I’m not arguing that the spores will one-shot or defeat Durge instantly. But what I am saying is that they should severely hamper Durge’s healing factor and ability to fight. Particularly if Arkady isn’t holding back here, but releasing large amounts of spores into the air. And let’s not forget, Omega Red has plenty of experience against foes with HFs…
I’m sure you’re familiar with Logan’s healing feats. Even as far back as the 80s, Logan was able to resist a Brood infection and a werewolf infection, so he has an established immunity to chemical attacks. And if you want to go to high-end feats, he’s not that far off from Durge. Logan’s survived near-total incineration by a nuke and by Nitro.
Yet Omega Red’s death spores are able to overwhelm his healing factor with ease when Arkady isn’t messing around. And to prove it, let’s look at Omega Red taking on the X-Men:
Now the important thing to note in the scans above are that Arkady is a) mind-controlled by the Soul Skinner, so he probably not as skilled as he usually is. And b) he’s not going all-out to kill, because he wants the X-Men alive. And c) He isn’t toying around and finishes them all as quickly as he can, since he’s mind-controlled.
Cyclops gets taken out telepathically by Soul Skinner, but Omega Red manages to solo Jubilee, Psylocke, and Iceman. And then an enraged Wolverine – who knows full-well that Omega Red has death spores – charges for Arkady. And what happens? He gets instantly taken out by the next page. It's strongly implied it was the spores that KOed Wolverine.
So consider the fact that Logan, who himself is no slouch at healing, can get taken out so easily by Omega Red’s death spores? I didn’t omit any pages here; this was literally what happened in the fight. I think it says a lot about how well Durge’s healing will stack up here.
And even if Durge knows that Omega Red has the death spores, they are still an extremely difficult tactic to avoid. For one: they’re completely odorless and colorless. Omega Red could be releasing a heavy concentration into the air, and Durge wouldn’t realize it until it's too late. And factor in that Arkady will be using copious amounts here. He has a seemingly-infinite reservoir of death spores, so Omega Red can just keep pumping them out, while the pheromones constantly eat away at Durge’s physicals.
And, surprise surprise, Omega Red actually possesses some degree of control over his death spores. He can actually alter their movement to an extent. As shown in the scan below, Arkady has taken two children hostage, but he’s able to command his spores to kill the Russian officers who are outside the room in the corridor. While the children remain entirely unaffected.
So aside from it being a very effective AoE attack, Omega Red can also use his spores for targeting. Given all that I’ve covered above, I believe that the death spores give Omega Red an upper hand here. And of course, Arkady isn’t just going to sit back and watch, he’s also going to be attacking Durge constantly while all this is going on.
It should be an interesting point for us to debate, as one of Durge’s traits is his HF, while one of Omega Red’s traits is an attack that defeats foes with HFs.
Beyond that initial edge, I believe that Omega Red is also more than capable of taking Durge in straight-up combat. Arkady himself has a healing factor (he was able to recover from stab wounds from Wolverine's claws almost instantly), and he's also no slouch speed-wise. I mean we're talking about someone who downright thrashes Logan in nearly every encounter. Which is especially noteworthy, considering Wolverine himself is a casual bullet-timer and has gone up against his fair share of superhumanly fast foes before (Hi Gorgon!).
One of Omega Red's greatest strengths however, is the sheer durability that his body possesses. In a flashback, Wolverine recounts one such incident of Arkady's endurance:
A Team X member fires at Omega Red with a specialized rocket launcher, hitting him at extremely close-range. Logan even states that it was enough explosive to put down a rabid bull rhino (which by the way, weighs as much as 3 tons). But Omega Red just shrugs it off. We don't see him get thrown back, or stunned, or anything. Wolverine even says that the hit was 'dead on impact', but acknowledges that it did absolutely nothing to Arkady. It looks as though he didn't even feel the hit.
It's also pretty important to note that Omega Red's armor didn't appear damaged at all. I think it's fair to say that his own mutant physiology took the brunt of the hit, but it should be pointed out that the armor itself was also durable enough to take that damage. So it turns out Durge isn't the only one packing durable armor here.
Continuing on from this point, let's have one last look at Omega Red's durability as well as his strength and fighting skill. In the showing below, Omega Red goes up against his fellow countryman Colossus:
First off, while Omega Red is distracted with his target, Colossus ambushes him by hurling a giant-ass boulder at his face. Now, to note, Colossus has literally no reason to hold back here. Remember, Piotr has fought against Omega Red before so he knows how dangerous Arkady is. And he hates his fellow Russkie with a passion. He's even under the (false) impression that Omega murdered a bunch of villagers in this arc.
The boulder looks to be at least 10 tons, and slams into Omega dead-center. Factor in Colossus' 100-tonner strength to really gauge how powerful the hit was. And yet Omega barely feels it in the next panel.
Then - and here's where it gets really impressive - Arkady uses his carbonadium tentacles and snares Colossus with them. He even flips Colossus upside-down while holding the 500lbs mutant in midair. Arkady does this by burrowing his tentacles through the snow and ambushing his opponent. And Piotr is unable to do anything to break free.
Keep in mind that Omega Red hasn't even triggered his death spores or life-grab here, he's just using sheer physical strength and carbonadium tentacles to temporarily hold Colossus in place.
And then when another mutant shows up, Omega Red picks up the giant boulder and hurls it at the newcomer with enough force to throw him off the mountain. The impact is so great that it even triggers a landslide that brings both the mutant and Colossus down. The fall was high enough to temporarily stun Piotr.
All in all, a very impressive physicals showing for Arkady. I just want to take a moment to emphasize the sheer strength level gap between Colossus and Omega Red here. Colossus is someone with the raw strength to exchange blows with other high-tier powerhouses like Juggernaut, Gladiator, and World War Hulk. In terms of overall power, he's definitely up there. And yet Arkady could still take his attack, and even temporarily hold him in place with the tentacles. It speaks to Omega Red's durability, as well as the power of his carbonadium appendages.
I'll get to Omega Red's other abilities later on, but I think this should suffice for now.
While Arkady tackles Durge, it’ll be up to Eddie to take on General Grievous. There are two reasons that make this a tactically-sound decision. For one, Omega Red’s life-drain and death spores aren’t going to be too effective against a cyborg. But the second reason is that Venom has a few tricks up his sleeve that Grievous won’t see coming.
At first glance, one might view Venom vs. Grievous as a tough fight for Eddie. But Eddie has the advantage of knowledge and cunning here. Many forget that Venom is easily one of the craftiest villains in Spider-Man’s rogues’ gallery. He’s not going to be stupid and take the General head-on. Especially if he has ‘wiki knowledge’ of the cyborg’s capabilities. No, he’s going to use trickery and cheating to take this.
The first step of Venom’s strategy will be to sneak up on Grievous’ position. As aforementioned, Venom will be cloaked for this, which will allow him to get near the General (though Eddie will still stay well outside of melee range).
Now, I’ve read claims that Grievous is capable of seeing in IR, but I can’t seem to find any confirmation, or instances of him using IR vision. All I’ve found are that the Kaleesh can ‘see in the dark’, but unless Grievous has actually shown this ability, I’m doubtful. I don’t know if Kaleesh night-vision is actually thermal in nature, or if Grievous’ eyes still retain this capability since his transformation (I know he kept them, but whether they still work the same way is debatable, as they were ‘modified’). I’ll leave this for you to prove.
Even if we work with the assumption that Grievous does have it, there’s little suggesting he’ll activate it in-battle. He doesn’t know a cloaked Venom is targeting him. Another important point to bring up is the battlefield has a lot of containers and objects that will provide cover for Venom. Contrary to popular belief, IR vision can’t see through solid objects. Plus, there’s also plenty of heat sources in the map that can shield Venom’s own signature. Vehicles, spotlights, and the huge spinning cargo ring in the map’s center all work.
And even if Grievous does have IR vision and it does detect Venom, Eddie still has one more stealth card up his sleeve: shape-shifting. Now, a common misconception is that Eddie can only change his outfit, but not his physical features. Which simply isn’t true. In fact, Venom is capable of altering his entire appearance:
Venom’s camouflaged form is even able to simulate liquids like water, and it was convincing enough to fool Spider-Man:
But perhaps most impressively, the symbiote was once even able to shape-shift into a tree. What makes this showing so notable? That this tree form was so realistic and convincing that even Wolverine was unable to detect Venom until it was too late. Consider for a moment that this is Logan we’re talking about: master of tracking with superhuman senses.
So even on the slim chance that Grievous is able to detect Eddie’s invisible form, Brock still has the option of shape-shifting into one of the inanimate objects on the battlefield. Like say…a fuel drum or a container. Regardless of the method, the point of all this stealth is just for Venom to get close enough to Grievous to enact the second phase of his strategy.
Now it’s obvious that tackling or ambushing Grievous would be a tough choice for Venom. So instead, what Eddie will be doing here is to remain at a distance from the General. Ideally, he should be invisible behind some cover, while the unsuspecting cyborg is nearby. Then, he’ll plant multiple symbiote tendrils from his feet into the ground…
…The invisible tendrils will travel underground towards Grievous, and then penetrate into the cyborg’s mechanical body via his feet. The idea is to kill Grievous by circumventing the armor and targeting his internal systems. Every part of the General’s insides will be flooded with gooey symbiote matter that will slash and destroy anything in their path.
Now before we go further, let’s note for a second that this strategy is perfectly in-character for Eddie. He frequently uses the symbiote for long-range stealth attacks, and this ‘burrowing’ tactic has also been executed by Venom on several occasions:
And another factor I want to point out is that Venom won’t be using giant tendrils here. He’s not trying to trap Grievous in a cocoon, or even trying to ensnare him. That would be stupid. What Venom aims to do is to stealthily flood the cyborg’s crystal circuitry, and jam it all up with symbiote goo. And as far as I know, the General has no defense for this type of attack.
But it would be stupid to assume that General Grievous will simply stand there and let this happen. So why do I still think that this tactic will be effective? Well for starters, the General should not anticipate this strategy at all, even with ‘wiki-knowledge’ on Venom. Invisible tendrils that penetrate your feet from the ground, and then flood your internal systems aren’t exactly an orthodox tactic. But the second reason is this:
As I said before, Venom won’t be using giant tendrils here. Because the symbiote is capable of sending out tendrils that are molecular monofilaments. These are tendrils that are so thin and tiny that they can flood the internal hardware of machines with no problem at all. And oh boy, believe me, this is also in-character for Eddie Brock.
Here Venom converts his symbiote into monofilaments to enter the circuits of a gaming computer. Note how Eddie was still even able to ‘see’ what his tendrils were seeing through the symbiote:
Next up, Venom uses the same method in order to travel a phone line in seconds and reappear on the other end of the call.
And lastly, Venom is even able to use his monofilaments to reprogram the circuits of an energy blaster, allowing him to fire the weapon (that he stole from a Russian cyborg):
I don’t know if Grievous even has defenses for this type of internal attack, but more importantly, I doubt he’ll even notice it until it’s too late. Venom’s tendrils are a) coming from an unexpected angle, b) invisible to the naked eye, and c) nearly microscopic in their size. I’m not sure if the General will even be able to feel those tendrils entering his cybernetic body, until the damage is fatal (how is the General's sense of touch?).
The symbiote is a parasite, and what he’s doing to the General here will essentially be the comic-book equivalent of a computer virus. Now I realize that Grievous has pretty insane reaction speed, but how does one dodge this type of attack? He wouldn’t even realize what was happening, or know where it's coming from, until it's too late. Venom’s tendrils might even be able to crawl all the way up to Grievous’ brain and eyes.
And for anyone who doubts the lethal effectiveness of this tactic, Venom once tried flooding the Thing with symbiote goo. And this attack nearly killed Ben Grimm, had it not been for the intervention of the rest of the Fantastic Four:
The Thing even seems rattled by the attack afterwards, saying that they need to destroy the symbiote as soon as possible. The symbiote’s tendrils were able to reach down into Ben’s stomach, and the process was so effective that even with all his 100-tonner strength, the Thing was unable to do anything to stop it.
And even if this tactic doesn’t incapacitate or kill General Grievous, it might still damage him badly enough for Venom to deliver the finishing blow. And believe me, Eddie is more than capable of giving the General a good fight. Though I’ll leave it to you to counter my tendril tactic first before getting into that.
I appear to be experiencing an image problem...
Every time I upload an image, the little menu above the image (with the size, orientation, caption etc) is present, but the image doesn't pop up. I've tried uploading multiple images, but then only a few show up, while some are missing.
I've tried switching internet connections too, but to no avail. I was posting pictures fine just moments ago, until this issue showed up. The images are even there in my Profile gallery.
I'm using Firefox on Windows 8.
*waves at Cosmic*
Here! Over here, with me and CS and Sovereign!
Use your keyboard!
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