Veshark's forum posts

#1 Edited by Veshark (9292 posts) - - Show Bio

@clownprinceofcrime1995

Hahaha wait what? His face is 'straining'? That's your evidence?

So sure, ignore my entire argument and call me a 'fanboy'. Shoot personal attacks my way because you can't counter my actual points. Make oblique aspersions that I've used out-of-continuity feats, and keep bringing up Deathstroke because you're too afraid to admit that your understanding of Cap is wrong.

I think I've wasted enough time here already as it is. I'm fairly certain this conversation isn't going to go anywhere. My argument stands on its own, and your response doesn't invalidate anything I've said at all.

Feel free to reply, but know that I won't. Have a good day.

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#2 Posted by Veshark (9292 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger I'm talking about this discussion thread: the first and the best TWS thread on the Vine! Where only the cool cats are allowed to come and discuss one of the MCU's finest movies! /end self-promotion.

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#3 Edited by Veshark (9292 posts) - - Show Bio

@clownprinceofcrime1995 said:

@veshark:

He is peak human and wow 100lbs is going to make soooo much difference against a meta, he was struggling there and it never showed him talking and lifting. The second was with his shield so doesn't really count as just his strength. Plus the "strength of 10 men" description someone made earlier DC characters are generally stronger than Marvel, just look at WW and WB Hulk, he caused issues for a LOT of Marvel characters yet superman, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern, Flash or Villans such as Doomsay and a lot more could have put him down with relative ease. Probably not in the new 52 but this hulk was before the new 52 I believe.

Alright, so you've conceded that I do have a valid argument in this thread. Well, small progress is still progress, I suppose.

Anyway, going back to your flawed understanding of Cap: again, '1100 lbs' is not his limit. You keep saying he was 'struggling'. But what indication is there that he was? Are there shake lines across Cap's body as he lifts the weight? Is he going 'huff huff' in the dialogue because of the strain? What? I suspect that you don't really have an argument here, because by simply saying that he was 'struggling', you can ignore the feat.

I gave you a direct showing of Cap lifting more than your 1000lbs limit, and you're trying to discount it just because you can't come up with a proper explanation that fits your argument...isn't it?

We clearly see in the first panel of the page that Cap is chatting to D-Man as he's lifting the weights. And it's clear that he's been working out with him for quite some time already. And really, would Cap set the weights to a level that he would struggle with, as you're suggesting? I don't know if you lift - but when you work out, do you bench-press at a weight you feel comfortable with, or at your upper-limit? Bench-pressing your max limit for a workout is silly and dangerous, so why would Cap do that if his strength was really 1000 lbs as you claim?

So, in short, I think this definitely proves you're wrong about this feat. Please don't use the word 'struggling' to refer to this scan again. The only thing struggling here is you and your argument. Next.

Moving on to the skyscraper feat, as I said earlier, Cap's photonic shield does absorb some degree of the weight. But only some, which the next page of the comic also says. Think about how much a skyscraper weighs, and now think of all that debris and weight collapsing onto you. And it's only Cap and his shield that could hold it all up, as the caption box explicitly states. Even factoring in the shield, that's still Cap supporting several tons of debris over his head. Again, greater than anything Batman has ever pulled off.

I don't know what Marvel-DC tangent you're going off on here, so I'm just going to ignore that. But more to the point, let's now address your insistent stance on referring to Cap as a 'peak-human'. Now I get why you keep saying that. You're probably not a Cap reader, and that's the way that Marvel merchandise and the inaccurate Handbook entries tend to sell Steve. As being a 'peak-human' like Batman, as in still human. But see, decades of Captain America comics have told us that this term is inaccurate.

Now, I could post. Up. Any. number. Of. Panels. And scans attesting to Cap explicitly referred or implied to as being an enhanced human, like Deathstroke. But more importantly, the most accurate depictions of Cap being enhanced come from his comics. I don't know if you've ever read a single issue of Captain America before. But allow me to educate you here, and show you the difference between a 'peak-human' and a Super-Soldier:

Strength

  1. Cap holds up another fallen building
  2. After being frozen in a block of ice, Cap breaks out with zero leverage
  3. Cap knocks out John Walker, a 10-tonner
  4. Cap throws his shield with enough strength that it's able to outpace a ICBM. These missiles generally travel 13-15000mph

Durability

  1. Cap jumps with no parachute from 200 feet in the air
  2. Cap is dropped by War Machine from a high distance and lands on his fists on the bulletproof John Steele
  3. Cap takes a beating from a bloodlusted 100-tonner Iron Man and remains conscious throughout
  4. Cap takes another beating from Extremis Iron Man again, and later survives a propane tank explosion. He's fine the next day with minor injuries

Speed

  1. Cap explains that he can dodge bullets because he 'sees faster' - implying that his mind can operate at higher speeds
  2. Cap is able to physically outrace a bullet fired across a room
  3. Cap dodges a bullet from Winter Soldier after it's been fired directly at him
  4. Cap states he can run over a mile in a minute
  5. Cap outruns prehistoric birds that are earlier stated to be able to run over 50 miles per hour.

Healing Factor

  1. Cap's metabolic system allows him to get rid of poisons
  2. Cap recovers from getting shot in the head!
  3. Cap cuts open his own chest and still survives

Adaptation Enhancements

  1. Cap instantly adapts to simulation fighting, a style that Kang states can take decades to master
  2. Beast states that Cap can instantly adapt to any weapon
  3. Black Panther, who has mastered every martial-art in the world, says that Cap can adapt to every fighting style
  4. Cap himself states he has a didactic memory thanks to his mental enhancements - allowing him to remember any tactic and apply it to any situation

Now, if you think that any of those feats are something that an ordinary peak-human could consistently replicate, then really, you're just too afraid to admit that you're wrong. But just in case it isn't enough, here's what Ed Brubaker (who wrote Captain America for over 8 years), had to say about the Cap's power-level:

"My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can. If it was just about having an Olympic-level athlete, do you really think all these groups and scientists would have been wasting 50+ years trying to replicate the SSS?

All I've done is have him say out loud what's always been pretty clear to me as a fan of the character. He's always been a lot stronger and faster than the average well-trained athlete. And I've always hated the Batman comparisons. Batman trained himself, Cap got given a miracle serum. I'm not making that up or changing anything.

Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze.

And just to put the final nail in the coffin, here is Cap's SHIELD file:

The key phrase here being 'ENHANCED human'.

I also recommend that you stop bringing up Deathstroke and this debate until you're able to get an accurate picture of Cap. Your understanding of the character is already flawed as it is. And if you think that Cap's a peak human limited to lifting 0.5 tons, then the rest of your argument for why DS wins has zero legitimacy whatsoever.

You're more than welcome to reply, but as Steve says, I can go all day.

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#4 Edited by Veshark (9292 posts) - - Show Bio

Callouts don't work in the OP, @easternwind. I stumbled onto this one by chance ;)

I haven't read much Hellboy in a while, so I don't know if he's gotten any new powers. But just standard HB, honestly, I could see it stopping as early as 5. The fact is that Comic Hellboy is mostly just a brute. He's strong and he's durable, but he's not overtly tactical, and generally charges for up-close and personal brawls. He relies on overwhelming force and endurance to win.

Against foes with far superior skill and speed, I don't think he'd hold up well.

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#5 Edited by Veshark (9292 posts) - - Show Bio
@lykopis said:

I like viewing different styles from different artists and while I certainly appreciate that talent and effort put into "realistic" art, I like Allred, Takara, etc. There is so much to enjoy both from the past and hopefully in the future with comic artists and having everyone pretty much draw everything the same (since it will be realistic), then a very important part of comics will be gone.

I agree that artistic diversity is always a plus for comics, but I don't think that 'realistic' is the dominant style of mainstream superhero comic-book art today. Since the 2000s, the definition of 'superhero comic art' has become increasingly varied; I mean just look at Marvel's roster of artists today. And the group of artists doing more grounded artwork only number in a few, as much so as any other 'type' of comic-art. I think we've come to a time in the industry where even mainstream books aren't afraid to branch out in art and aesthetics.

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#6 Edited by Veshark (9292 posts) - - Show Bio

@risingbean @cap10nate @war_killer @i_like_swords @tg1982 @wolverine08@extremis Check this out, on the day of TWS' North American release - it just so happened to be RDJ's birthday. So he invited a bunch of people and some lucky kids to watch the new movie with him! Quote from his Twitter:

"What better way to spend my birthday than recognizing the cosmic miracle of Captain America 2 opening the same day? Gonna wrangle about twenty kids to watch it with and partaaaaaaaaaaaaay Marvel-style!!!"

In other related news, someone NEEDS TO GET ME THIS BOOK:

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#7 Edited by Veshark (9292 posts) - - Show Bio

Apologies if someone's posted this before, but I stumbled onto this article from CBR. Basically it's a panel with Rob Guillory (Chew), Erik Larsen (Savage Dragon), Kazu Kibushi (Flight), and Klaus Janson (Daredevil) discussing realistic comic art. Check it out here.

The gist of the discussion was basically about their feelings on realistic art in comics. The creators talk about how realistic art in modern comics is a problem as it doesn't fit the medium. I don't want to paraphrase anything out of context, so it's probably better if y'all just read the article yourself, but that's what I got from it.

Anyone has opinions about this? They're certainly entitled to their own stance, but I feel a little weirded out. I believe all types of art have a place in the comic medium and its many genres. You can have traditional superhero art like Jim Lee, dynamism like Kirby, realism like Alex Ross, abstract art like McKean - I think everything has its place. And I don't think there's an overwhelming amount of 'realistic art' in mainstream superhero books.

Off the top of my head, there's Ross, Epting, Hitch, and Cassaday. And maybe the mostly cover artists like Bradstreet, Bolland, or Granov. But me personally, I really dig 'grounded' art. I'm a big fan of artists going the extra mile to render something as real-world as possible. Of course, only if it fits the story's tone that is. For example, I'd want Epting on Captain America, but I'd prefer Ivan Reis on Justice League.

Thoughts?

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#8 Edited by Veshark (9292 posts) - - Show Bio

@risingbean I'm still lobbying for that West Coast Avengers movie. Closest you're ever gonna see to Hawkeye in a starring role!

Hah, that's what sprung to mind too.

Come on, we all know the real badass villain in Cap's rogues gallery is the Armadillo! But no, yeah I agree with you, as long as the villain is intimidating and connects to the hero on some level, I'm more or less fine. It's just that a little variety is nice in a superhero trilogy is all. Pity that most of Cap's 'less-out-there' villains generally fall into the Nazi camp ala Skull, Zemo, Zola, & Strucker, or the Super-Soldier camp like 50s Cap and Nuke. Though we do get variations with Batroc and...uh, Doc Faustus I guess?

I've got the fire of youth in my heart, RB! I don't know, coming out of the theaters after Thor 2, I was fine...but the more I thought about it, and the more I rewatched some clips and scenes, it's starting to stand out as a bad mark on the MCU's track record.

Hmm, that's probably the closest I can come up to for an explanation as well. He was pretty heavily-battered in the New York battle, so I suppose that's understandable. And the WWII-era costume certainly makes a stronger symbolic impression to the comparison with SHIELD/HYDRA than the Avengers suit does, after all. Sort of like the good and simpler America from the 40s vs the controversial America of today.

It doesn't really bother me as much, it's the same thing as comics really. One shouldn't let an interconnected world get in the way of telling a good story. Could an off-hand reference about where Tony or Hawkeye was help? Definitely. But I won't lose any sleep over it. Maybe it's best that they leave it unanswered then come up with some possibly implausible and contorted excuse.

With an Avengers Tower coming soon, I want to see something akin to Under Siege. Zemo teams up with all the past villains of the MCU and basically launch a home-invasion into the team in their own home.

Funny you should mention that, I'm actually watching Arrow's Season 1 right now (after much recommendation from yours truly).

Inglorious Basterds was...a movie that I had mixed feelings about. I enjoyed the casting and the scenes, but I didn't care much for the story or the segmented nature of the film. I'm not much of a Tarantino fan, and maybe most of the deeper technical aspects of filmmaking flew over my head. I actually preferred Django. But one has to admit that the Nazi actors were really great in it as villains.

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#9 Edited by Veshark (9292 posts) - - Show Bio

@clownprinceofcrime1995 said:

@veshark:

Really don't get you, the point of this is to voice your opinion on who would win and why, of needed back up with feats. You have done none of that. Actually no one who has said team knows how the team wins. Also not a DS fanboy was just the first character that popped into my head when I wanted an emblem, joker is by far a better character, so interesting. Probably the best written character and most original villain there is.

Sigh...fine, I'll take the time to explain this to you:

One doesn't always enter a thread to make a judgment or an argument. Sometimes, you might enter a thread, and see that a person has made a mistake about a character that you know about. At which point you correct them, so that their argument is actually accurate.

In this case, that would be you - making a mistake by quoting Steve as being a 'peak-human' and having a '1000lbs' max limit of strength. I corrected you and gave you two showings as proof, to indicate to you that your argument was inaccurate.

Instead of coming up with a legitimate counterargument for your point (your point being Cap's max strength is 0.5 tons), you responded by saying something along the line of Cap's feats being PIS and that he doesn't lose 'big encounters'. So coming back to this thread, how can you make a fair judgment that DS wins if your understanding of Cap is this flawed?

So far, you haven't done anything to prove your claim, which I already pointed out quite clearly was wrong.

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#10 Posted by Veshark (9292 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark:

You've shown two feats WOW, without relating to issues or versions of cap. You haven't answered the thread, the point is DS wins, why enter the thread if you don't plan on giving an answer or prediction. I'm truth I find Cap boring and dull and have no interest in him at all. Yes he has a shield, AMAZING! He didn't even work to get his abilities, even DS was picked due to being an awesome solider without Aug. Cap was picked because he has a good moral compass, not perfect like Supermans but pretty good I have to admit. I do see why some people like him though.

That's nice.

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