Veshark's forum posts

#1 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@danial79 said:

The original series was pretty good, as was the first half of Marc Spector: Moon Knight (the second half sucked), but I still think the 2006 run is my favourite (yes, including Down South!).

Word. Okay, yeah, the 2006 run pretty much slid down to mediocrity once Huston left the title but that first opening arc is still glorious. That's still one of the best character relaunches I've ever read in comics.

#3 Edited by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden

My Team vs. Spectrum

J’onn can instantly hit FTL speeds (look at the D’Kay scans I posted where he went from Mars to the Sun in a few panels). I really doubt he’ll have a problem blitzing Spectrum and hitting her with a TP strike. Monica’s top speed is a little over lightspeed at best, a far cry from Fernus’ casual FTL flight. He doesn’t need any time to outrace and tag her with a TP attack before she reaches Despero.

And that’s only if we even assume that Fernus can’t react to a lightspeed object while stationary himself. If he can control his flight path, hold conversations, and form coherent thoughts while moving at speeds greater than light, I don’t see why Fernus would have any trouble directing what is essentially a thought at Spectrum.

Not really. That’s just a blanket statement, to say that Handbooks are ‘more wrong than they’re right’. And what exactly is wrong in Spectrum’s Handbook entry? You haven’t produced scans that contradict it, all you have is one non-quantifiable panel. That’s just a generalization to excuse the fact that you can’t produce a feat refuting the Handbook.

Your MFTL scan is invalid because it doesn’t have an explicit claim to Spectrum’s speed. Mine quite clearly states the ship is moving at x8 the speed of light. Yours just has ‘blink of an eye’, which could mean anything from a second to a vague short time. It’s not concrete.

Your Scans

1. Not really, there’s a distinction to be made there. ‘Mental tampering’ isn’t a catch-all term for any form of mind-control. If the chip only brainwashed Spectrum with orders, but still allowed her to move and fight on her own terms, then obviously she’d be able to choose which powers to use. Unless the chip is stated to have seized complete control of her body, and that all her actions are under the command of someone else…I don’t see why she wouldn’t be able to select her powers. And I still don’t see the relevance here. Fernus isn’t trying to control her, he’s just firing off a single TP burst. This is before we even consider the fact that a tiny computer chip of unknown origin is nowhere near the level of J’onn’s telepathic control.

2. You missed out the greater point of all those scans I posted. I didn’t put them there so my post would have pretty pictures. I was pointing out that J’onn’s telepathy works on a far greater level than Miss Martian’s. The relevance is that just because (hypothetically) electricity interferes with Miss Martian’s TP…doesn’t mean it’ll interfere with Fernus’. Fernus’ TP is a great deal stronger, and I’ve shown scans of him telepathically communicating with machines and Electric Blue Superman to explicitly show how electricity doesn’t interfere. You keep choosing to ignore these scans, and up till this point, I don’t think you’ve even acknowledged them. I really don’t know how much more direct I can be: electricity has never been shown to interfere with Fernus’ telepathy. I’m not talking about Miss Martian’s telepathy, or Marvel telepaths, or even comic-book telepathy in general. I’m talking specifically about J’onn. Even if Miss Martian was unable to read Static’s mind, there’s nothing that says Fernus wouldn’t be able to.

Plus, guess what a little research reveals about your Miss Martian scan? The reason why she couldn’t read Static’s mind wasn’t because his electricity made him TP-immune. It was because her powers had been affected by the Wyld. Since that battle, her control over her powers became erratic, and Miss Martian is later revealed to be suffering from a neural degeneration:

Teen Titans Vol. 3 #83

In that same issue where she couldn’t locate Static (Teen Titans Vol. 3 #79), she mentions feeling sick and worn out. In fact, in the exact same page, Miss Martian actually mentions that she once overheard Static thinking about his best friend – proving that her telepathy does work on Static’s mind.

Later in the issue, Miss Martian’s powers fritz out again when a telepathic strike meant for Holocaust hits Raven by accident. She didn't even have enough strength with her TP strike to put down Holocaust. Throughout that story arc and since her battle with the Wyld, Miss Martian’s powers continue to be erratic and uncontrollable.

In summation, I believe I’ve definitively proven that electricity does not affect Martian telepathy to any degree. Your ‘electricity’ argument has zero merit. And your She-Hulk scan is redundant now, considering the points I’ve just made. Even if Spectrum were to be aware of such a tactic, it wouldn’t do squat against Fernus’ telepathic strike.

3. That’s not a counterargument to any of my points. That’s just an empty statement.

4. There’s no distinction there. Fernus prevented Ronnie Raymond from accessing his powers by introducing a telepathic block. Fernus can prevent your brain from telling your arm to move – so why wouldn’t he be able to prevent your brain from telling your arm to fire an energy blast? If Fernus can seize complete mental control of an opponent, why wouldn’t he be able to telepathically prevent said opponent from doing certain things? It’s not unproven theory; it’s axiomatic logic. And you know what the difference is between this scan and your MFTL one? Your single scan was shaky and debatable, and you failed to provide any more evidence to support that one panel. My single scan of Fernus vs. Firestorm is solid, not to mention that I’ve already shown Fernus/J’onn displaying greater telepathic feats than this. If J’onn’s telepathy can affect cosmic threats like Mageddon and the Spectre, you really think he wouldn’t be able to do something as simple as prevent Spectrum from using her powers?

5. See above. Lobotomies and insanity-rewiring shows the extent of telepathic control that Fernus has over the human brain. If he can cause such drastic changes, again I ask, why wouldn’t he be able to telepathically stop Monica from accessing her powers? If Superman can punch through steel, ergo he can punch through brick. If Fernus can make the Joker sane, I’m pretty sure he can make Monica forget how to use her powers. And no, it’s not against the rules either. It’s not complete control of Spectrum, and the conditions already state that telepaths can ‘influence’ or ‘weaken’.

Once more, ‘should know’ is not the same as ‘does know’. It’s just a wild guess. And this wasn’t the point I was addressing either. I was noting that your instant discounting of Panther’s statement seems hypocritical. You implied that Monica’s friendship with Panther would influence her knowledge on her own powers, and you just acknowledged that he’s intelligent.

I showed how this very same Black Panther mentions that Monica doesn’t use her powers to their full potential. Now, am I saying that this is definitive proof that Spectrum’s an idiot? No, and as you yourself proved, she can fight smart. But a statement from the eighth smartest man in the MU certainly carries some weight, particularly since you brought him up first.

Though either way, this portion of your argument doesn’t really matter, on account of the fact that I’ve shown electricity as being entirely ineffective versus Fernus’ telepathy.

My Team vs. Darwin

No, you’re still missing the point – Darwin had knowledge in both those situations. Regardless of whether or not it was subconscious, the point was that those were all scenarios where he knew there was a problem. He wanted to impress his mom; he wanted to beat up the bullies. Both were situations where the problem, if not the solution, was evident to Darwin.

Again, in this case, a telepathic scan is not something that Darwin will be aware of, even for a moment. Fernus’ scan will take less than a second (considering J’onn can read the entire planet’s minds in a few seconds). Even if he knew, it’s not as though Darwin has enough time to develop an adaptation. Again, Darwin has to be aware of the problem before he adapts.

I already showed/proved how it doesn’t have to be life-threatening or even a threatening situation, it just has to be something he wants or something that might be a minor inconvenience.” Your words, DR, not mine. I didn’t put any words in your mouth, friend. I’m just quoting what you said two posts ago.

And again, Darwin’s reactive adaptation relies on two factors. One is whether or not Darwin has a need for it. But the second is that Darwin has to be aware of the problem. He needs to know the cause before he can pull off the effect. You have yet to provide a single scan where Darwin’s adaptation reacted to something he had zero knowledge of.

Well if you’ve conceded that it was merely Darwin’s influence that led to him stealing Hela’s powers…not his own specific will, then again I ask you: how will he use that particular adaptation in this battle? You used this encounter to claim that Darwin could steal my team’s powers. In fact, that was the primary reason you even brought the Hela battle up.

If Darwin can’t influence this change because he has no friends to protect here, and if he’s never shown to proactively use this ability in another encounter…then I don’t see how Darwin will steal my team’s powers at all. At this point in time, the Hela scans seem irrelevant at best. You haven’t even provided a means for Darwin to defeat my team throughout this entire debate.

Whoa, slow your horses down, mate. Bear in mind that I never made a concession to your splitting of adaptation into two categories. I still maintain that it should be classed as one superpower. All I said was ‘for the sake of argument’ and ‘hypothetical scenario’. In that event, I would use Nullify to remove proactive as opposed to reactive adaptation.

And as nice as those two scans are, I don’t see how either one will save Darwin here. My team will be blitzing him at FTL speeds here. I don’t want to get into calculations, but the force behind a single strike would be enormous. ‘Take his head off’ was just a figure of speech on my part, a FTL speed-blitz would tear Darwin into a million pieces.

Mass increases at higher speeds et cetera...

Unless his reactive adaptation has ever grown a defensive power at speeds faster-than-light, unless Darwin has ever recovered from being reduced to a million tiny particles…I don’t see how he’ll survive my team’s attack at all. Regrowing a new head is a neat trick and all, but I don’t think his consciousness can adapt fast enough to survive the vaporization of his entire body.

As for those Skrull adaptation scans, again, ‘knowledge of the problem’. Darwin didn’t know to proactively develop an adaptation as the solution, but he knew that there were Skrull imposters. Presumably it was his knowledge that influenced his body to develop a power to expose Skrulls. Something he won’t have against Fernus’ mind-reading.

Closing Arguments (Why Fernus & Despero Win)

This will be my last post in our debate. To be frank, at this point in our exchange, I feel like we’ve been arguing in circles. I’ve been drilling the same points over and over again, and the repetition is beginning to get tedious. I’ll be finishing up with my closing arguments here, and you’re free to respond with your own if you wish to, before we move on to voting.

Here’s why Fernus & Despero will defeat Spectrum & Darwin:

1. Superior Speed: Your team’s first move will be intercepted. Spectrum’s top flight speed is lightspeed at best, a lot slower than Fernus’ casual FTL speeds. Either Fernus’ superior travel speed or reaction time will allow him to take her down with a telepathic attack. One strike should jolt Spectrum from her energy form, and stun her, opening her up for the subsequent illusions, power-neutering, and death.

2. Telepathic Dominance: Your team has zero defenses against telepathy. I’ve already shown how Martian telepathy is unaffected by electricity, so your suggestion for Monica to use an electric form has zero merit. And Darwin’s adaptive powers can’t protect him from a secret mind-reading that will take less than a second to complete, considering he has zero awareness of it.

3. Nullification: With Monica dead, all that’s left is Darwin. Nullify will get rid of his adaptation abilities, effectively rendering him more powerless for 5 seconds. That’s more than enough time for my team to FTL speed-blitz him, particularly as the mind-reading will have already determined Darwin’s location and abilities.

4. Contingencies: Even in the event that Fernus can’t intercept Spectrum while stationary, he can instantly hit FTL speeds to buy him enough time to TP her. And even if ‘adaptation’ was divided into ‘reactive’ and ‘proactive’, my team can still kill Darwin before his reactive adaptation develops any form of defense. My team has covered all its bases in every scenario.

#4 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@fil123 said:

@veshark said:

Super-stoked. I'm still not too crazy about the armored look - it's kinda reminiscent of the TDK/New-52 costumes, and that whole armor-plating mechanical motor shtick just isn't my ideal Batman look. But everything else looks fantastic, I have absolute faith in Rocksteady. The part in this clip that struck me the most was the bit when Batman first exits the building...and gets a look at the entire city. I mean just look at that. Buildings that stretch out as far as the eye can see with all those blimps and stuff. That's Gotham.

pretty sure theyre going with the armored look because this is supposed to be an older batman, as origins, asylum and city all have taken place before.

I get the progression, I'm just saying that on an aesthetic/eye-candy level, it's not my favorite Batman look.

#5 Edited by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

@comicstooge said:

@dondave said:

@comicstooge As far as we know he didn't actually die, but it may also be a clone

Laaaaame. They should've left him dead.

Bring the baseball bat, @risingbean. We're taking a trip to the Marvel offices.

Because I feel killing Pete to bring out Miles right after was lame, I'd take that trip and thank them for unf***ing themselves. If they got rid of this newest status quo, and bring back a few others, I may even read the Ultimate U again.

I am all for dead means dead, but not when you kill every last person I like in the whole friggin' universe.

I'm perfectly kosher with Ultimate Peter's death, personally. To be honest, just to maintain one of the last semblances of 'realism' in the UU, I'd rather they keep Peter dead than fall into the same 'let's bring em back!' trap of the 616-verse. That said, I do agree that they've killed off way too many of my favorite characters. At least Peter had a great going-out. What about guys like Ultimate Cap or half the casualties during Ultimatum? Nuh-uh.

#6 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@comicstooge As far as we know he didn't actually die, but it may also be a clone

Laaaaame. They should've left him dead.

Bring the baseball bat, @risingbean. We're taking a trip to the Marvel offices.

#7 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice work as always, MM. I hear that Catwoman's solo isn't that great, but at least the art's really pretty.

#8 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

Super-stoked. I'm still not too crazy about the armored look - it's kinda reminiscent of the TDK/New-52 costumes, and that whole armor-plating mechanical motor shtick just isn't my ideal Batman look. But everything else looks fantastic, I have absolute faith in Rocksteady. The part in this clip that struck me the most was the bit when Batman first exits the building...and gets a look at the entire city. I mean just look at that. Buildings that stretch out as far as the eye can see with all those blimps and stuff. That's Gotham.

#9 Edited by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden

My Team vs. Spectrum

To be frank, I still don’t see much of a distinction. Here’s the difference that I think you’re overlooking, DR: When people say a character has ‘FTL flight speed’, it refers solely to their travel speed. Whether or not the character is FTL in combat speed is another case entirely. As in, whether or not the character can physically fight opponents at that speed-level.

But we’re not discussing physical speed in Fernus’ case, we’re discussing mental speed here. Because Fernus isn’t looking to punch Spectrum, or grab her – he’s going to fire off a telepathic burst from his brain. It’s not the speed of his physical movement that’s the topic of our disagreement, it’s the speed of his thought-processes.

Consider this: If J’onn can catch up to a ship that’s steadily moving away at 8x the speed of light…If J’onn can fly and direct himself at FTL speeds…if he can carry a telepathic conversation while moving at that speed…wouldn’t it stand to reason that he can fire off a telepathic attack at FTL speeds as well? Since simply put, Fernus can think at those speeds.

If he can form coherent thoughts while moving at FTL speeds, why wouldn’t he be able to launch a telepathic strike – which is essentially just a thought? You are right in that J’onn’s flight allows him to better perceive the ship. But Spectrum’s flight is nowhere near the ship’s speed, making it all the more easier for Fernus to aim and fire off a TP strike at her.

At any rate, even if we reimagine this scenario with your stipulations, there’s still a pretty simple counter for that. You’ve said that Martian Manhunter only reacted to that ship because he was moving nearly as fast as it was…so what’s preventing him from repeating the same actions against Spectrum’s blitz here?

Say Spectrum blitzes for Despero’s position. Considering J’onn was able to perceive and chase after a ship moving at 8x the speed of light, Fernus should be able to spot Spectrum and blitz towards her at light-speeds himself. When flying towards her at light-speeds – per your own observation – Fernus moves fast enough that he can perceive Spectrum better.

With that given delay due to the similarity of their speeds, Fernus has enough time to fire off a telepathic burst. Martian Manhunter can rapidly hit speeds close to 8x the speed of light, as well as perceive objects moving at this rate. You say that Manhunter’s not in motion here, so what’s preventing him from simply flying towards Monica in this battle?

And if a stationary Manhunter can – after having saved Gypsy – still be able to spot and locate a ship moving at 8x the speed of light, I think it’s fair to say that Fernus will see Spectrum flying towards Despero. Spectrum’s top speed is around a little over lightspeed, so she’ll certainly be visible to everybody’s favorite Martian.

Plus, no, I’ve already addressed your ‘blink of the eye’ scan. Once more, Handbooks should be considered the authority on a character unless there have been multiple occasions that contradict the entry. Considering you’ve only been able to produce one single vague and really questionable feat where Monica likely wasn’t even MFTL, I stand by assessment.

Your Scans

1. Alright, then, who put the chip there? What does it do? To what extent does it control Monica’s actions? Is she entirely dependent on a controller to command her every move like a puppet? Or can she move on her own, but is simply brainwashed to follow orders? But most importantly – what does this have to do with the larger debate? I’ve never even mentioned ‘brainwashing' in my strategy, so unless I’m missing something, I don’t see the relevance of this scan.

2. Miss Martian can read the Titans’ minds from across the planet? J’onn can simultaneously read every mind on the planet, period. J’onn can penetrate the psychic defenses of cosmic-level threat Mageddon. J’onn entered the Spectre’s mind and forced him into the astral plane. J’onn can cause a telepathic hallucination in reality-warper Joseph Stinton. When has Miss Martian ever shown TP feats on the level of Martian Manhunter? And again, remember, Fernus is a lot stronger than Regular J’onn.

  • J'onn breaching the psychic defenses of Mageddon (1)
  • A second scan of J’onn reading the minds of everyone on the planet (2)
  • J’onn forcibly entering the Spectre’s mind and pulling him into the astral plane (3, 4)
  • J’onn causing a telepathic hallucination to reality-warper Joseph Stinton (5, 6)

And just to put an icing on the cake, let’s bring up the Martian villain D’Kay. D’Kay possesses enough telepathic power to read billions of minds instantly. Miss Martian fought her in a psychic battle and was entirely helpless against her:

Then Martian Manhunter kicks D’Kay’s butt by summoning the thoughts of everyone on Earth (while he was on Mars), blasts her with them, and then uses his FTL speed to fly her to the sun – destroying her.

The point of the matter is that Miss Martian’s telepathic skill is not even in the same zip code as Martian Manhunter’s, let alone Fernus. She has no feats even putting her on the same power level – her greatest showing is what, stalemating Supergirl? Where on your scan does it state that Static’s electricity made him TP-proof, and not Miss Martian’s own inability?

And again, like the previous scan, I ask – what’s the greater relevancy of your argument with this one scan? We’ve established that Martian Manhunter’s TP is not affected by electricity (J’onn's TP, not Green Martians in general or even White Martians). We’ve established that Monica has never used an electrical form against TP. So what does arguing this achieve?

3. There really isn’t much tying the ALE to Martian telepathy, but aside from that, you didn’t exactly refute my original points. I.e. electricity only provides a limited and faulty defense against the Equation.

4. The key aspect that you’re missing is that Fernus didn’t neuter the Firestorm matrix or disable the source. What he did was cut off Ronnie Raymond’s telepathic connection to it. Fernus created a mental block. In that same vein, why wouldn’t he be able to repeat this tactic with Spectrum? It doesn’t matter if Spectrum’s powers aren’t derived from a power-source, Fernus isn’t affecting the source – he’s affecting the brain. It’s like mental manipulation. If Fernus can control your brain and prevent you from moving your hands…why wouldn’t he be able to prevent you from using your powers? Using powers is just the same as any other movement…it requires a command from the brain. That’s what Fernus is disabling.

5. Again, it’s all in the brain. The Arkham Asylum feats show that Fernus was able to cause lobotomies and mass-personality rewrites telepathically. If he can influence brains to such a degree, why can’t he prevent Monica from doing something as simple as telling her hands to fire an energy blast? It’s the same principle.

As for your scans on Spectrum’s ‘creativity’…well, every single one of those scans you used comes from Nextwave. That book was written as a comedic take on the Marvel Universe, and the series’ canon status is dubious at best. Nextwave was written to be non-canon by Ellis, and the entire book has multiple continuity violations. I believe Quesada himself said that it was non-canon.

Case in point: Funny as it may be, the real Fin Fang Foom would never do this...

Your usage of those scans? Shaky, to say the least. And you were the one who first brought up Monica’s relationship to T’Challa as an argument for her knowledge of her powers. Now you’re going to discount a statement made by the same T’Challa claiming that Monica doesn’t know how to use her abilities?

Still, all this is vestigial to my arguments: Spectrum switching to an electrical form is not a feasible counterstrategy for Fernus’ telepathy. It doesn’t affect Martian TP, and Monica has no awareness of this tactic whatsoever. Not to mention a single telepathic strike is more than enough to shatter Monica’s concentration, forcing her revert out of her energy form.

My Team vs. Darwin

All those instances you listed were not situations where Darwin was ‘unaware’. He was unable to see in the dark, ergo he grew night-vision. He wanted to beat up bullies, he grew brick-hands. He wanted to impress his mom, his intelligence increased. Every one of those occasions had Darwin’s conscious desire, whether the adaptation was proactive and reactive.

So if Fernus read his mind telepathically to determine his location or powers, and Darwin had no knowledge of such an action, why would Darwin’s adaptation react at all? Show me a single instance where Darwin’s body adapted to a condition that he had zero knowledge of. And for the record, you were the one who said Darwin had to ‘want’ something, not me.

Now you’ve said: “It’s not always based off what he wants, just what helps him in this situation.” By that logic, how would you know that stealing Hela’s powers was a conscious decision? Darwin could’ve thought, “I want to protect my friends”, and his adaptation interpreted that by stealing Hela’s powers because it was the most effective way.

In other words, there’s no indication that Darwin went “I want to protect my friends so I should absorb Hela’s powers” so much as “I want to protect my friends”, and then his body stole Hela’s powers.

And if draining Hela’s powers only worked because he wanted to save his friend, what makes you think that he could influence his adaptation in our debate? He’s not saving anyone here, so why would he absorb my team’s powers? If Darwin could really trigger this particular adaptation at will, and use it proactively, then why hasn’t he been stealing the powers of everyone he meets since that issue?

‘Psionic’ is just another way of saying ‘powers that come from the mind’. Again, the only similarity that TP and TK have is that they both use the brain. The actual powers themselves do different things. Whereas proactive and reactive adaptation do the exact same thing – they adapt. The superpower itself is identical, it’s just the mode that differs.

And ‘nullify my ability to live’ is a little silly, friend. Living and being a biotic organism isn’t actually a superpower, you know…

But alright, for the sake of argument, let’s try your hypothetical scenario. Let’s say that proactive and reactive adaptation are two different powersets. Fernus telepathically reads Darwin’s location as well as his abilities, and with no knowledge of such an action, Darwin doesn't react to it. Fernus then goes on to use Nullify to remove Darwin’s proactive adaptation.

At which point Fernus and Despero then use their FTL flight to speed-blitz Darwin and tear his head from his neck. So, in that split-second that it takes for my team to kill Darwin, can Darwin’s body develop a reactive adaptation before he’s killed? Has his body ever developed a defensive adaptation at light-speeds? How will he use his weakness-vision here?

Even in your own conditions, Darwin still loses badly. Darwin’s ultimate flaw is that his reactive adaptation depends on external effects to trigger a response. By the time Darwin’s body senses Despero’s fist punching him at FTL speeds, it will be too late for his mutation to adapt. Like his fight with Worldbreaker Hulk, Darwin simply can’t adapt fast enough here.

Conclusion

I feel like I’m drilling the same points over and over again with the conclusions, so I’ll keep it short this time around. Essentially, my team wins because we can neuter your team’s strategy before it even begins. Spectrum’s blitz will fail on account of her lack of speed, as well as Fernus’ telepathic burst. From that point on, Monica’ll be dead before she can even respond.

My team then has the means to extract intel on Darwin without his knowledge, and our perk nullifies his greatest asset – adaptation. Even in the event that Darwin retains his reactive adaptation, his reflexes and mutation still don’t work fast enough to prevent a FTL speed-blitz that will again, kill him before he even responds.

Fernus & Despero take this battle because, quite simply, they’re quicker on the draw.

#10 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio
@rustyroy said:

I hope he is crazy smart too, I want a mix of Ozymandias+Leonidas+Rorschach+Nite Owl.

This is what I want to see emphasized as well. If you want to make a comic-book-accurate Batman, the one thing you have to remember is that he's supposed to be a Renaissance man. He's like a modern-day da Vinci; he has all these different skill-sets, knows all these sciences from a variety of fields, has mastered all these fighting styles. He's supposed to be the World's Greatest Detective.