Veshark's forum posts

#1 Edited by Veshark (9257 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: you clearly missed the part where i said coulson wins most rounds and also where i said coulson wins if he is smart. coulson has decent h2h showings. he's not getting away from fisk if he closes the distance.

I didn't miss anything. I'm starting to think you might have though.

I never said/implied that you argued Coulson would lose the majority here. So I'm not sure why you're even bringing that up. The only point of contention I brought up was your claim that Coulson has to go for the kill shot, which I just disproved in the post above. As well as your claim that it's 'all over' once Fisk grabs Coulson. Again, considering Coulson was able to do decent against Calvin Zabo in H2H, I'm going to stand by my opinion that Phil could buy enough time to fire off another I.C.E.R. round.

#2 Posted by Veshark (9257 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: there is no guarantee that it will. he shrugged off a tazer, just pissed him off. he took daredevils batons rather easily as well. all it takes is for fisk to grab coulson and its over. still i think coulson can win most of these fights if hes smart. but one slip up and hes toast

There's more evidence that implies it will rather than not. An I.C.E.R. isn't like a taser, it doesn't use electricity, it literally poisons its target with dendrotoxin. We've seen it affect superhumans before, and it drops regular humans wearing armored vests with a single shot. Even if Kingpin has enough willpower/constitution to endure one shot (which I doubt), there's no reason why Coulson can't pump one or two more nonlethal hits to take Wilson down. And I disagree that it's immediately over if Fisk grabs Coulson. For one, Agent Coulson is hardly useless in a H2H confrontation (again, this guy has engaged superhumans in H2H), and for another between Coulson's fighting skills and Fisk being affected by the toxin, I'd wager Coulson has enough time to shoot off another I.C.E.R. round.

#3 Edited by Veshark (9257 posts) - - Show Bio

Jeez, more people need to start watching Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. To say Coulson has no combat feats is ridiculous, as is faulting him for losing to an opponent several leagues above his weight class. It's just as silly as suggesting the series isn't part of the MCU. Like whuh? Fisk is a mere mobster, Coulson deals with superhumans on a daily basis.

Given the prep conditions, Coulson has this in the bag. While Fisk has shown the occasional intelligent tactic (I'm thinking the bombings mostly), his prep feats are dwarfed by Phil's. We're talking about a guy who was handpicked by Fury himself to lead the new S.H.I.E.L.D.; the recent string of episodes with Coulson vs. 'the other S.H.I.E.L.D.' more or less cement this man's reputation as a formidable strategist. Given three days to study up on their respective opponents, I'd bet on Coulson more often than not

And while Coulson is hardly useless in H2H combat (see his fights with Mr. Hyde and Agent 33), he'd probably opt for the fastest method of putting Kingpin down. The Destroyer gun is a bit of a stretch really, he doesn't want to kill Fisk, but between a hologram generator, a Thunderstick, and a Night-Night Gun/I.C.E.R., I don't see why he shouldn't take this. Even if Fisk wears his armor, the Night-Night Gun/I.C.E.R. should be able to penetrate it, considering its rounds can pierce body armor and even pre-upgrade Deathlok (the latter being a superhuman with enough durability to survive a jump from five stories up). And on that note Coulson has far superior marksmanship feats than Fisk in the event that the mob boss decides to bring firearms too.

@nerdchore I don't think Coulson has to go for a kill shot, necessarily. For one, the I.C.E.R. is a nonlethal weapon, and for another even the Night-Night Gun (the I.C.E.R.'s predecessor) had enough dendrotoxin to take down pre-upgrade Deathlok. It stands to reason the I.C.E.R. could do the same to Fisk. One good shot from that weapon should incapacitate Fisk fairly harmlessly.

#4 Posted by Veshark (9257 posts) - - Show Bio

I've elected not to include this year's CBMs.

10. Dr. Strange

9. The Wolverine 3

8. Suicide Squad

7. X-Men Apocalypse

6. Green Lantern

5. Aquaman

4. Justice League Part 1 + 2

3. Avengers Infinity War Part 1 + 2

2. Batman v. Superman Dawn of Justice

1. Captain America Civil War

#5 Edited by Veshark (9257 posts) - - Show Bio

@cloakx14 said:

Outkast

TLC

I don't know if two people are a band so much as a duo...if not I'd probably include Gang Starr or Black Star.

#6 Posted by Veshark (9257 posts) - - Show Bio

Wu-Tang.

#7 Edited by Veshark (9257 posts) - - Show Bio
@thedailybagel said:

@veshark: those fights are all we have to go on, whether he'll act differently under normal cirumstances we don't know. But thus far there literally isn't a single showing out there of Fisk fighting someone whilst calm, so it's impossible to say if hed act differently.

Well, that's the thing. You yourself agree that none of those encounters were 'normal circumstances' for Kingpin's behavior, and since we acknowledge that the context of the scenarios affected his character, we can also assume that it affected the outcome of the fight.

I think it makes more sense to say, "Kingpin might fight differently when he's not personally angered by his opponent", rather than outright ignoring that aspect and arguing, "It's impossible to say definitively if Kingpin would act differently, because him fighting against a neutral foe has never been explicitly shown, so let's just assume that a non-bloodlusted Kingpin fights the same way".

#8 Posted by Veshark (9257 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: doesn't he act like that everytime he gets into a fight? The russian brother, Ben, Matt (both times), leland etc.

Whenever he gets into any sort of physical engagement he goes into a berserker like rage.

In every instance you noted, each character did something personal to trigger that rage. Anatoly Ranskahov embarrassed Fisk in front of Vanessa, Leland Owlsley betrayed him with Gao and kept Hoffman as leverage, and Ben Urich crossed a line by involving Fisk's mother in their war. And Matt...well, I don't think I have to explain that one.

Kingpin isn't the Hulk, he doesn't have constant anger powering him in every physical confrontation regardless of context, at least not as far as we've seen on the show. Every time Fisk ends up hurting someone, it's because said individual did something that seriously pissed him off, enough to warrant personal involvement on his part. But if one drops Fisk into a scenario like this, I doubt he'll have the same rage against a random foe. Not saying he'll let the opponent walk all over him, but it's definitely an important thing to consider about how well he'll fight.

Again, I don't disagree that Kingpin is a formidable combatant, just pointing out that his final fight with Matt - while impressive - did have other factors that affected/boosted Fisk's overall combat performance.

#9 Edited by Veshark (9257 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like many need to note that Kingpin was clearly bloodlusted and stuck in a corner in that final fight with Daredevil. His first instinct upon Daredevil disabling the van was to flee. It was only when he couldn't find an exit in that alley that he resorted to actual combat. By that point in time, he was enraged at DD having foiled his plans, and with no means of escape, he lashed out like a trapped animal. I'm not saying the guy doesn't have incredible strength (lifting DD and hurting Matt even with the armor on) as well as impressive brawling skills, but we should keep in mind that Fisk's only notable combat showing is likely not a foolproof measure for how standard Kingpin would behave in a hypothetical fight.

#10 Edited by Veshark (9257 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde said:

Batroc showcased more skill in pure H2H.

Rorscach does have durability and pain tolerance though. I think he can take the majority maybe through fighting dirty and having solid physicals due to everyone in that movie being pretty amped.

I don't know if I'd agree with Rorschach having greater durability/pain tolerance even. I mean Batroc took a flying drop kick, a charging tackle through a door, and a direct punch to the face from a man who tosses bikes and takes down Quinjets. And he recovered from that beating within seconds. He still had enough constitution to wake up and make his escape.

Closest to that I can think of for Rorschach was taking a direct kick to the face from Ozymandias, who was admittedly pretty strong for a movie character.