@durakken said:
@vampireselektor:
1) Tim is a natural detective that uses his knowledge to predict and account for his lack of fighting skill. He isn't "driven" to do this, but rather understands that one should always prepare for the worst. And while on the surface this seems similar to Bruce, it isn't. Bruce wasn't a natural detective and it was only after years of study and training that he became anything like he is today. That includes the idea to work smarter, not harder, which Tim does naturally, and Bruce is quick to leave behind when he gets emotional, where as Tim relies on it more when he gets angry. Likewise, Dick relies more on his training in general because he really isn't that smart or creative. Batman taught him how to handle a situation and that is how he handles the situation because it's been trained into him. Bruce had to learn from the ground up what to do in a situation which causes him to be more creative, but he falls back on I'm gonna beat you until you go down when all else fails. They are not "similar" as you wish to believe.
1a) Those people are wrong that Dick fights to help people. Dick is still Nightwing because he doesn't know what else to do with himself and it personally feels good to do what he does. That's not to say he doesn't care about others, but that his primary concern as a character isn't others. It's himself. This can be seen in just about everything. When all else fails he crumples and it takes others to get him back on his feet. This has been shown throughout everything written about Dick and it has been written in thought balloons where Dick is talking about himself, the motivation for what he does, not the crumpling. The crumpling is seen several times throughout his career.
2) One could argue that, but they'd be wrong to say that is her primary motivation. James Jr. wasn't a big part of her life before the new-52. The only thing you can pin her becoming Batgirl on is that she wanted to be like James Gordon, but he wouldn't let her. Happenstance led to her taking on the Batgirl mantle the first time and she found it to be the only way to fulfill what she wanted to do.
3) Yes...
3a) All those books happen in the modern age and cover what I said. We have very little of Dick Grayson AS Robin to measure.
3b) ummm ok when was this in dispute?
3c) You are comparing Dick's character from the point where he was starting to be moved away from being Robin into Nightwing, not the beginning. Dick's character before that point is pretty much non-existent and so to argue that you are using the character from that time is just wrong. Dick's character only came into being as a specific set of character traits in the early 80s. This is when Dick was clearly not being a "good" Robin and after that he wasn't a Robin, so using that as your basis you can't say he was the best Robin.
If we're going to talk about Robin you have to point out that we're talking about the relationship between Batman and Robin and when we do that you have to see that those relationships, at base are different. Dick and Jason were mentored emotionally and physically by Bruce. They were his subordinates in every way where Bruce looked after them and they relied on him. Tim was only physically mentored by Bruce and only as one of many. They were equals who relied on each other, ultimately making the duo stronger than at any other time. Stephanie likewise was only sorta mentored by him, nut not really. Bruce did everything in his power to make her stop. Damian is physically capable, but mentally he needs mentoring which Bruce really isn't the best for so in that case we have a strong physical team, but one that is out of sync making them ultimately weaker. Dick and Damian's relationship as Batman and Robin much like Tim's was to Bruce and Tim's at very early stages, but Tim quickly was forced to move beyond that due to others' training and Bruce getting injured.
In that sense Tim is a better Robin than Dick ever was, not out of malice, but rather as part of Dick coming into his own was Dick becoming Nightwing. Tim came into his own AS Robin and that makes a large difference.
Character-wise we're only talking about 80's to 2011 Tim and Dick, because as pointed out Dick as a fully developed character didn't exist pre-80's. In this case it's a matter of who is more interesting as a character as Robin and since we have only snippets of Dick as Robin and it would just be somewhat a retread of Bruce but ending slightly differently in his time as Robin I find Tim way more interesting as Robin if only for the fact that there is a lot more drama there. Dick's parents die. He seeks revenge. Bruce teaches him justice. He gets justice. Dick enjoys doing this so he continues and adventures ensue really isn't all that interesting when you compare it to Tim's story of challenging Bruce when he's at his most violent. Choosing to do what he feels is right, being Robin, even though ultimately it has resulted in many problems for him, from the Death of his Dad, to being completely ostracized by everyone for believing that Bruce isn't dead, to literally having his identity taken from him by his "brother" after having to force that brother to step up to do what's right, otherwise he'd do it.
Tim is ultimately just the better character, with more depth, and better ultimately for the Batman/Robin dynamic. Though I suppose if you like a facade of cheeriness over thought provocation Dick would seem better to you.
1a) Given the turmoil being "Robin" puts him in, calling him driven sounds fair. People who continue a habit after multiple tragedies are driven at one level or another. Oh, and it was Bruce and Tim who were caught with contingency plans against their teammates, no? Very obsessive, very controlling.
1b) Bruce wasn't a natural detective? :) When was that ever discussed on-panel? Now who's biased?
1c) Tim needed extensive tutoring from Dick despite his talent
1d) "Likewise, Dick relies more on his training in general because he really isn't that smart or creative." - Bias? There are plenty of stories showcasing Dick's wit and spontaneity, like the ones listed above. There's probably even a thread dedicated to this very attribute.
1e) What about the time Tim fought angrily and left himself open to a knife in the chest from Jason?
1f) "Those people are wrong that Dick fights to help people. Dick is still Nightwing because he doesn't know what else to do with himself and it personally feels good to do what he does. That's not to say he doesn't care about others, but that his primary concern as a character isn't others. It's himself. This can be seen in just about everything. When all else fails he crumples and it takes others to get him back on his feet. This has been shown throughout everything written about Dick and it has been written in thought balloons where Dick is talking about himself, the motivation for what he does, not the crumpling. The crumpling is seen several times throughout his career."
Yes, he doesn't feel good unless he's saving people. Personal satisfaction is not the same as selfish interest. Upload a panel where Dick is waxing selfish to the readers.
It's funny how you attack Dick for fighting crime because he wants to but praise Tim for the same reason. This smells of bias.
2) One could argue that Barbara sought out crimefighting partly because of her brother. Think about how many stories that have retroactively shaped canon (again, the Batman: Year One rule)
3) OK, Tim's independence is largely due to Dick's influence. The steps Dick took to becoming Nightwing influenced Bruce's approach with Tim. Plus, Tim was just as "subordinate" as Dick. Dick patrolled on his own, even in the Golden Age, led the Titans and had his team-ups.
When Tim joined Cyborg's Titans, Batman wanted to drag him away - like a subordinate. Dick's intervention ultimately kept him on the team. Dick did a lot of the caring after Tim for Bruce.
Again, the '80s Dick Grayson as Robin addressed the character's history and perception. It's relevant.
3a) "In that sense Tim is a better Robin than Dick ever was, not out of malice, but rather as part of Dick coming into his own was Dick becoming Nightwing. Tim came into his own AS Robin and that makes a large difference."
True, but that doesn't discredit Dick's time or relevance as the "prime" Robin.
3b) "It's a matter of who is more interesting as a character as Robin and since we have only snippets of Dick as Robin and it would just be somewhat a retread of Bruce but ending slightly differently in his time as Robin"
There are important differences between Batman and Robin (Dick) in the Modern Age. The first difference is visually, of course. Secondly, Bruce's care led to Dick developing a drastically different personality. What was Bruce doing at ages 8-19? Mourning and traveling the world. What was Dick doing at ages 8-19? Fighting crime, leading teams, and saving people. Cracking jokes too, but yeah. He and Bruce were and still are different people.
4) Dick enjoys doing this so he continues and adventures ensue really isn't all that interesting when you compare it to Tim's story of challenging Bruce when he's at his most violent. Choosing to do what he feels is right, being Robin, even though ultimately it has resulted in many problems for him, from the Death of his Dad, to being completely ostracized by everyone for believing that Bruce isn't dead, to literally having his identity taken from him by his "brother" after having to force that brother to step up to do what's right, otherwise he'd do it.
- OK, Dick's challenges with a stubborn Bruce are precisely the reason he chose to work as Nightwing. Again, pivotal moment in comics. Dick backing up Tim in his struggles should also be noted here.
- No one ostracized or persecuted or hounded Tim. He chose to go alone.
- Yes, Dick gave "Robin" to Damian, but Bruce took "Robin" from Dick. Dick was also dealing with the Wildebeest Society killing and mutilating his Titans at the time, among other matters. Both characters rose above their circumstances
- If I'm not mistaken, Jason masquerading as Batman ultimately led Dick to taking on the mantle. Dick says as much in Batman and Robin #16. Tim getting stabbed in the chest was just incidental.
Tim is ultimately just the better character, with more depth, and better ultimately for the Batman/Robin dynamic. Though I suppose if you like a facade of cheeriness over thought provocation Dick would seem better to you."
Aww, are you hurt? :).
Tim's entire career draws from Dick directly or thematically. The solo adventures, the rebelling (yes, Dick rebelled), leading a generation of heroes - all from Dick. Dick is a character's who's grown better and more influential over time. Yes, watching the first child superhero develop is interesting. Exploring how meeting Robin is the first time things start turning around for Batman is interesting. Watching the first Robin help train a new Robin to help out Batman? Great.
"thought provocation", you said... :)
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