VampireSelektor's forum posts

#1 Edited by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken: 1a) Your reasoning doesn't mesh with Dick's actions. A passionate person wouldn't run into a radioactive city or do half of the other feats Dick does on an issue basis. Dick's drive IS to do right, so much so that he continued Nightwing.

You're also taking personal responsibility from Tim here.

1b) Please provide panels or issues.

1c) What about the time Dick tutored Tim on patrolling the city blind in "Nightwing" #25?

1d) When has Dick dropped the ball? List some examples. What about the time Tim toyed with Captain Boomerang's life, but stopped when Batman arrived? Isn't that as close to criminal? What about Batman's murderous moments?

1e) Jason IS more experienced than Tim. Remember Jason had almost two years more experience before he died. After his resurrection Jason trained with the world's greatest assassins for four years before his return as Red Hood. Jason has more experience.

Oh, it's admissible. Damian got the drop on Tim.

1f) Dick has consistently shown the drive to serve. Removing crime from Bludhaven was serving. Leading the Titans without a costumed identity is serving. Heading a team when he prefers to fight alone is serving.

Dick has never retired, by the way. He's fallen back on his humor, yes. Shunned people out of shame? Sure. But he's never stopped his career. You sound bitter.

1g) Yes, Tim has a drive to do right, but so does Dick. Tim also panicked at the idea of losing his place as Robin. He acted as "Red" Robin because he didn't know what to do with himself. He wasn't brave enough to move on with his life. It's the same as when his father died. Tim kept active even when hiding from Bruce. When he's upset, he falls into obsession and murky behavior.

Dick, on the other hand, stepped up to lead the Bat-Family, the Justice League, and monitor Azrael.

Tim didn't dress as Batman to wake Dick up. He was enraged towards Jason for sullying the cowl. He got lost in emotion, wouldn't you know?

Tim was near the same age Dick was when he left the nest. Jason became the Red Hood around the same age. Don't get sore, it's a rite of passage. Would you consider that maybe Damian needed supervision more than Tim? What's a most direct way to rehabilitate Damian? Making him Robin. Is there a more direct way to rehabilitate someone like him? You're treating your favorite with kids' gloves.

#2 Edited by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio
@durakken said:

@vampireselektor: Could you not quote the whole thing... that's the point of using the numbers ^.^

1a) Doing something and being driven to do something is different. He's driven to do what is right, not driven to be Robin. Bruce is driven to be Batman. Dick was driven to be Robin, but quickly lost that drive.

1b) Bruce isn't a natural detective. He discusses that when talking about Tim in fact a few times. I don't know the issues, but you'll find it if you go back over the last 30 years of comics.

1c) Tim didn't need tutoring. Tim sought out Dick's experience being Bruce's sidekick to deal with Bruce when Tim was still new. Tim also sought Dick's help when Az-bat went nuts. Tim never went to Dick to tutor him on being a better fighter or tactition, and seeking advice does not indicate you are worse, but that you recognize that others may have a way of looking at things that might be useful.

1d) No. Wit and spontaneity is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when everything fails Dick ends up feeling lost and falls into a pit of despair. The reason this doesn't happen more is because Bruce trained him and gave him what to do in so many situations, but when he runs out of that which is instinct for him now he falls into a deep black hole of despair.

1e) I put that entire period of time on bad writing. Tim literally got his butt kicked by everyone in that story and that's just silly. I look at his full modern run, just like Dick's full modern run. That doesn't make sense within that viewpoint to do that. The only thing that can be chalked up to is dislike of Tim or trying to push characters to make them look good... Damian and Jason at that point were being pushed to be a threat (Jason) or skilled (Damian) and they don't know how to do that without completely defeating someone of high skill.

1f) Are you agreeing or what? just repeating what I said back doesn't say anything.

I thought you'd follow along just fine :p So sorry you had trouble.

1a) Who was forcing Tim to be Robin? No one. Tim chose to be Robin time and time again, even at great personal risk to his family. If Dick wasn't driven to do right, he wouldn't have started operating as Nightwing. Robin would be enough.

1b) Could you find the panels? Who wrote the issues? Who drew them?

1c) Tim vocally sought out Dick for tutoring. There are panels where Dick teaches Tim how to refine his detective skills, his acrobatics, and so forth.

1d) I was addressing your "not smart or creative" jab at Dick.

Fall into despair? Are you referring to getting over Blockbuster's death? Are you referring to Donna Troy's death? Are you aware of how long it took for Tim to get over Conner Kent, let alone his father? Trying to clone one's loved ones is a positive trait?

The same goes for "Red Robin". Tim's need to find Bruce alive came out of grieving. The fact that Bruce was alive was for all purposes good luck.

1e) You chalk up a character's grief and stabbing to bad writing? So Tim never grieved for his father? Never went overboard on Electrocutioner for bringing up his dead father? People get reckless from time to time.

Jason defeating Tim is not outright bad writing - he's the more experienced fighter. Never mind how badly Jason beat Tim before Infinite Crisis.

Tim underestimating Damian isn't bad writing either. Less experienced people getting the drop on more experienced people is a common feat in comics.

You're ignoring the praise Tim was getting on-panel and off, starting from Morrison's run all the way up to "Flashpoint". Beloved characters get defeated too. *shrugs*

1f) My argument is that Dick has grown accustomed to a life of service. You say that's selfish, but I disagree*. Curiously, you defend Tim based on this same argument, but ignore his obsessive or controlling qualities, qualities he shares with Bruce. I'm saying you're biased.

*You're turning his drive to serve into a character flaw. Those panels where Dick beats himself up after a mistake, that's a character flaw? Talking about his mission is a character flaw? How has Dick been consistently selfish over the years?

#3 Edited by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken said:

@vampireselektor:

1) Tim is a natural detective that uses his knowledge to predict and account for his lack of fighting skill. He isn't "driven" to do this, but rather understands that one should always prepare for the worst. And while on the surface this seems similar to Bruce, it isn't. Bruce wasn't a natural detective and it was only after years of study and training that he became anything like he is today. That includes the idea to work smarter, not harder, which Tim does naturally, and Bruce is quick to leave behind when he gets emotional, where as Tim relies on it more when he gets angry. Likewise, Dick relies more on his training in general because he really isn't that smart or creative. Batman taught him how to handle a situation and that is how he handles the situation because it's been trained into him. Bruce had to learn from the ground up what to do in a situation which causes him to be more creative, but he falls back on I'm gonna beat you until you go down when all else fails. They are not "similar" as you wish to believe.

1a) Those people are wrong that Dick fights to help people. Dick is still Nightwing because he doesn't know what else to do with himself and it personally feels good to do what he does. That's not to say he doesn't care about others, but that his primary concern as a character isn't others. It's himself. This can be seen in just about everything. When all else fails he crumples and it takes others to get him back on his feet. This has been shown throughout everything written about Dick and it has been written in thought balloons where Dick is talking about himself, the motivation for what he does, not the crumpling. The crumpling is seen several times throughout his career.

2) One could argue that, but they'd be wrong to say that is her primary motivation. James Jr. wasn't a big part of her life before the new-52. The only thing you can pin her becoming Batgirl on is that she wanted to be like James Gordon, but he wouldn't let her. Happenstance led to her taking on the Batgirl mantle the first time and she found it to be the only way to fulfill what she wanted to do.

3) Yes...

3a) All those books happen in the modern age and cover what I said. We have very little of Dick Grayson AS Robin to measure.

3b) ummm ok when was this in dispute?

3c) You are comparing Dick's character from the point where he was starting to be moved away from being Robin into Nightwing, not the beginning. Dick's character before that point is pretty much non-existent and so to argue that you are using the character from that time is just wrong. Dick's character only came into being as a specific set of character traits in the early 80s. This is when Dick was clearly not being a "good" Robin and after that he wasn't a Robin, so using that as your basis you can't say he was the best Robin.

If we're going to talk about Robin you have to point out that we're talking about the relationship between Batman and Robin and when we do that you have to see that those relationships, at base are different. Dick and Jason were mentored emotionally and physically by Bruce. They were his subordinates in every way where Bruce looked after them and they relied on him. Tim was only physically mentored by Bruce and only as one of many. They were equals who relied on each other, ultimately making the duo stronger than at any other time. Stephanie likewise was only sorta mentored by him, nut not really. Bruce did everything in his power to make her stop. Damian is physically capable, but mentally he needs mentoring which Bruce really isn't the best for so in that case we have a strong physical team, but one that is out of sync making them ultimately weaker. Dick and Damian's relationship as Batman and Robin much like Tim's was to Bruce and Tim's at very early stages, but Tim quickly was forced to move beyond that due to others' training and Bruce getting injured.

In that sense Tim is a better Robin than Dick ever was, not out of malice, but rather as part of Dick coming into his own was Dick becoming Nightwing. Tim came into his own AS Robin and that makes a large difference.

Character-wise we're only talking about 80's to 2011 Tim and Dick, because as pointed out Dick as a fully developed character didn't exist pre-80's. In this case it's a matter of who is more interesting as a character as Robin and since we have only snippets of Dick as Robin and it would just be somewhat a retread of Bruce but ending slightly differently in his time as Robin I find Tim way more interesting as Robin if only for the fact that there is a lot more drama there. Dick's parents die. He seeks revenge. Bruce teaches him justice. He gets justice. Dick enjoys doing this so he continues and adventures ensue really isn't all that interesting when you compare it to Tim's story of challenging Bruce when he's at his most violent. Choosing to do what he feels is right, being Robin, even though ultimately it has resulted in many problems for him, from the Death of his Dad, to being completely ostracized by everyone for believing that Bruce isn't dead, to literally having his identity taken from him by his "brother" after having to force that brother to step up to do what's right, otherwise he'd do it.

Tim is ultimately just the better character, with more depth, and better ultimately for the Batman/Robin dynamic. Though I suppose if you like a facade of cheeriness over thought provocation Dick would seem better to you.

1a) Given the turmoil being "Robin" puts him in, calling him driven sounds fair. People who continue a habit after multiple tragedies are driven at one level or another. Oh, and it was Bruce and Tim who were caught with contingency plans against their teammates, no? Very obsessive, very controlling.

1b) Bruce wasn't a natural detective? :) When was that ever discussed on-panel? Now who's biased?

1c) Tim needed extensive tutoring from Dick despite his talent

1d) "Likewise, Dick relies more on his training in general because he really isn't that smart or creative." - Bias? There are plenty of stories showcasing Dick's wit and spontaneity, like the ones listed above. There's probably even a thread dedicated to this very attribute.

1e) What about the time Tim fought angrily and left himself open to a knife in the chest from Jason?

1f) "Those people are wrong that Dick fights to help people. Dick is still Nightwing because he doesn't know what else to do with himself and it personally feels good to do what he does. That's not to say he doesn't care about others, but that his primary concern as a character isn't others. It's himself. This can be seen in just about everything. When all else fails he crumples and it takes others to get him back on his feet. This has been shown throughout everything written about Dick and it has been written in thought balloons where Dick is talking about himself, the motivation for what he does, not the crumpling. The crumpling is seen several times throughout his career."

Yes, he doesn't feel good unless he's saving people. Personal satisfaction is not the same as selfish interest. Upload a panel where Dick is waxing selfish to the readers.

It's funny how you attack Dick for fighting crime because he wants to but praise Tim for the same reason. This smells of bias.

2) One could argue that Barbara sought out crimefighting partly because of her brother. Think about how many stories that have retroactively shaped canon (again, the Batman: Year One rule)

3) OK, Tim's independence is largely due to Dick's influence. The steps Dick took to becoming Nightwing influenced Bruce's approach with Tim. Plus, Tim was just as "subordinate" as Dick. Dick patrolled on his own, even in the Golden Age, led the Titans and had his team-ups.

When Tim joined Cyborg's Titans, Batman wanted to drag him away - like a subordinate. Dick's intervention ultimately kept him on the team. Dick did a lot of the caring after Tim for Bruce.

Again, the '80s Dick Grayson as Robin addressed the character's history and perception. It's relevant.

3a) "In that sense Tim is a better Robin than Dick ever was, not out of malice, but rather as part of Dick coming into his own was Dick becoming Nightwing. Tim came into his own AS Robin and that makes a large difference."

True, but that doesn't discredit Dick's time or relevance as the "prime" Robin.

3b) "It's a matter of who is more interesting as a character as Robin and since we have only snippets of Dick as Robin and it would just be somewhat a retread of Bruce but ending slightly differently in his time as Robin"

There are important differences between Batman and Robin (Dick) in the Modern Age. The first difference is visually, of course. Secondly, Bruce's care led to Dick developing a drastically different personality. What was Bruce doing at ages 8-19? Mourning and traveling the world. What was Dick doing at ages 8-19? Fighting crime, leading teams, and saving people. Cracking jokes too, but yeah. He and Bruce were and still are different people.

4) Dick enjoys doing this so he continues and adventures ensue really isn't all that interesting when you compare it to Tim's story of challenging Bruce when he's at his most violent. Choosing to do what he feels is right, being Robin, even though ultimately it has resulted in many problems for him, from the Death of his Dad, to being completely ostracized by everyone for believing that Bruce isn't dead, to literally having his identity taken from him by his "brother" after having to force that brother to step up to do what's right, otherwise he'd do it.

  • OK, Dick's challenges with a stubborn Bruce are precisely the reason he chose to work as Nightwing. Again, pivotal moment in comics. Dick backing up Tim in his struggles should also be noted here.
  • No one ostracized or persecuted or hounded Tim. He chose to go alone.
  • Yes, Dick gave "Robin" to Damian, but Bruce took "Robin" from Dick. Dick was also dealing with the Wildebeest Society killing and mutilating his Titans at the time, among other matters. Both characters rose above their circumstances
  • If I'm not mistaken, Jason masquerading as Batman ultimately led Dick to taking on the mantle. Dick says as much in Batman and Robin #16. Tim getting stabbed in the chest was just incidental.

Tim is ultimately just the better character, with more depth, and better ultimately for the Batman/Robin dynamic. Though I suppose if you like a facade of cheeriness over thought provocation Dick would seem better to you."

Aww, are you hurt? :).

Tim's entire career draws from Dick directly or thematically. The solo adventures, the rebelling (yes, Dick rebelled), leading a generation of heroes - all from Dick. Dick is a character's who's grown better and more influential over time. Yes, watching the first child superhero develop is interesting. Exploring how meeting Robin is the first time things start turning around for Batman is interesting. Watching the first Robin help train a new Robin to help out Batman? Great.

"thought provocation", you said... :)

#4 Edited by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken said:

@vampireselektor: Wrong on multiple counts factually, but more importatnly Tim is not to Dick what Dick is to Bruce. Dick and Bruce are similar at core. They are motivated from personal tragedy. Tim isn't. Tim is motivated by what is right and good only. Tim's Robin is much more like Barbara Gordon. Not the "original" but the one who made it their own. Dick as "Robin" wasn't really a character. He was a blank sheet, especially in the modern age and post-52 era, where Dick's time as Robin is nearly completely unknown and so to say he is the "best" when there is no account of him as Robin in the era that I would consider the best I would say is wrong.

Dick Grayson, the character most people think of, never really existed as Robin, because his time as Robin he wasn't that character and the time after he became that character noone ever went back and rewrote him.

So what you are comparing is Nightwing + Year One Dick Grayson projected into Robin vs Tim Drake as Robin. The two aren't comparable fairly without a highly personal bias.

Now if you were to say that "Golden Age" or "Silver Age" Dick Grayson is better than Tim Drake... that's pretty sad because those eras contained a pretty characterless Dick Grayson so it's impossible for that character to be better than Tim Drake, but it's a bit more understandable... nostalgia reasons can blind people.

1) Tim, like Bruce, has also displayed a desire to control and manipulate events and people against their will, even as Robin.

1a) Many journalists and ComicViners will tell you that Dick's triumph is that he got over his personal tragedy, unlike Bruce. Dick fights purely to help people.

2) One could argue Barbara Gordon was also motivated by her psychopathic brother.

3) If we're comparing Robins, we're comparing them before New 52. If not, Tim doesn't even qualify.

3b) Some of Dick's most defining moments as Robin were written on the eve or in the Modern Age ("New Teen Titans: Who is Donna Troy?", "New Teen Titans: The Judas Contract", "Robin: Year One", "Batman: Dark Victory")

3c) Yes, retroactive books like "Robin: Year One" and "Batman: Dark Victory" count. If "Batman: Year One" is canon, so are these books.

3d) I'm comparing Dick's character from his debut through his years and how this reflects his demeanor as Nightwing. I can do this as Dick was Robin during the Modern Age. Dick was Robin from 1940 to 1984, just at the start.

#5 Edited by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick Grayson

Dick still behaved like Robin when he left to have his own adventures. Nightwing always showed up in Gotham to help when Bruce was in trouble. "Help" extends to morale here. Compare Dick to his peers. When Bruce caught a murder beef, who was the only person who believed in his innocence? Dick. Who's helped mentor most of the other Bat-Family? Dick.

I'll end up elaborating on this later, but here: Dick's "Robin" and Tim's "Robin" are two different ideas. Dick is to ROBIN what Bruce is to BATMAN. They're both primes. He's Batman's first real achievement, proof that his plan works. One could argue that Robin transformed Batman from "pulp hero" to a "superhero".

I've written in the past about how Dick is the link between Bruce's "obsessive drive for justice" and Superman's "superhuman helpfulness". Funny enough, no one seems to mention that Dick is the first hero of his generation, a la Superman.

Tim's "Robin" factored into the First Great Bat-Reform of the 1990s. Here, Tim represents Batman getting back on track from near-marauder to driven detective. Tim wouldn't have been able to do this without Dick's tutelage.

Yes, Tim has a similar personality to Bruce. Yes, Tim is probably the best detective in the group. Yes, "Batman, Jr." fits Tim better than Dick. Tim's character was certainly more developed in his debut compared to Dick's debut. But Tim's Robin is sort of like Dick's Batman. If you prefer him, cool.

#6 Posted by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio

BUMP

#7 Edited by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkknightdetective said:

@smoothjammin said:

Dick, the breakout star of the Batfamily. He's the leading man.

In your dreams boy wonder, Bruce will forever be the center of attention while the rest of the bat-family will be his groupies.

1) My vote's for Dick Grayson.

2) Dick Grayson is a better man than Bruce, and his example is the only reason sidekicks have the opportunities they do.

3) Dick is Bruce's greatest achievement. The Network, Tim, even his relationship with Damian are all colored by his taking a chance on Dick. Having Robin around saved Batman from a lonely, futile existence.

3b) Remember that Batman wasn't winning before he found Dick. Batman's early years in the Modern Age were defined by failure. He failed to crush the mob. He failed to protect Harvey Dent. He arguably inspired a new wave of criminals. Gotham City's morale was pretty low at this point. Batman proved his worth by raising Dick. Let's not forget how crucial Dick was to the old DCU. Gotham never got better, but every hero had the highest respect for Dick.

4) So yes, Batman is the center of attention, the myth. But Dick is the myth's hope. For a man like Batman, that's everything. Sorry if I offend, but even God wasn't saving souls until Jesus came along. I'm talking non-normative, of course.

4b) One could argue Dick is the connection between Batman and Superman. OK, other people have probably tread that ground before, but let's go on. Batman represents human ingenuity. He'll never be defeated, but can't look beyond himself to truly save Gotham. Superman stands for hope and progress. He'll save the day while charming the townsfolk. He's a god among men, but he leads by example rather than force. Dick's in the middle, physically and mentally.

5) My vote's for Dick, but it's hard to view the two characters separately. Bruce and Dick sustain one another.

Thoughts? Sorry if I'm unclear, I'm a bit hungry.

It's nice to be back.

#8 Posted by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio

Well this thread is pointless now.

#9 Posted by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio

@morpheus_: Training itself means Nightwing's refined his skills over time. He's not a video game character missing an upgrade.

#10 Posted by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll give it to Moon Knight, if only for slicing off a person's face in combat. Isn't everyone a little afraid of the Moon Knight?