uberhikari

@thevivas:

You just said Anakin dodged lightning earlier, and now you're saying he did it in his starfighter. Hmm..

I've posted the passages from the book in this thread. I never implied that Anakin himself dodged lightning. You're getting kinda close to calling me a liar. Please take a step back.

Movement speed is the speed at which he moves dude. It's pretty much the same as combat speed.

This is just fallacious reasoning. People in this thread are making up ridiculous arguments surrounding "movement speed." They're trying to argue silly stuff like Anakin might be able to "move" his hands superfast but he can't "move" the rest of his body at the same speed. Obviously that's ridiculous. It's an equivocation fallacy. Apparently the way you "move" your hands is not the same way you "move" your body. That makes no sense.

Yes you can. How do you think Force push, force pull, force choke, force scream, or force lightning work? You don't have to enter a state of mind to use them. Sure it makes them more powerful if you do, but it's not a mandatory thing. Using the force to augment physical attributes is "compelling it to amp you." Force jump and force speed is compelling the force to amp you. The reason you can use them on a whim is BECAUSE the force is flowing through you like a conduit. It's always there for you to use, it's not on hold until you "enter a certain state of mind." That's why Jedi can still use their force powers if they're angry or whatnot. Take Darth Bane for example. He had no knowledge of the force, yet he used it to kill his father and influence the miners he worked with for years.

I think you're wrong, but I don't think it matters for my overall point. I've quoted the passages and the feats are clear. You may not want to accept them, but that's your problem not mine. You and I both no that there's no way in hell princearagorn1 can argue that Obi-wan Kenobi can only deal with 20+ blows per second.

People are just not willing to accept that Naruto top tiers are no match for experienced Jedi Knights in Star Wars. It's always funny to watch the reaction on comicvine when people discover that characters are much stronger than everybody thought they were. It's like dropping a stone into a body of water and watching the ripples.

@princearagorn1:

Depends on the distance between them.

Go back and read the quote; they were on the opposite end of a Republic cruiser, so ~1 km from each other. Also, remember that Anakin and Obi were both flying at each other. The feat is so clear that it's going to be hard to deny its legitimacy. This feat is also corroborated by the fact that Anakin has also dodged lightning while in his fighter.

Also:

Let's say analkin can see the person coming at him, in slo motion. Can he dodge it? That depends on his own movement speed. Do you have to move your hands at sound speed? no.

I have no idea what you're talking about. What is "movement speed"? And what do you mean by "move your hands at sound speed"? The feats I've quoted from the novel are very clear, Anakin is reacting to objects coming at him at speeds which are a "respectable fraction of light speed." It's quoted directly from the book. What is so hard for you to understand?

What we do know is obi-wan may not be able to handle 20+ blows in a second. One of the few times where speed is quantified.. That says something about their actual fighting speed.

This is not true. From Revenge of the Sith:

Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed, each with hyper-sophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation, were certainly beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat, but it was not Obi-Wan who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting.

He was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him. In the Force, he felt their destruction: it was somewhere above and behind him, and only seconds away. He went to meet it with a backflipping leap that the Force used to lift him neatly to an empty droid socket in the ceiling hive. The MagnaGuards sprang after him but he was gone by the time they arrived, leaping higher into the maze of girders and cables and room-sized cargo containers that was the control center's superstructure.

Here, said the Force within him, and Obi-Wan stopped, balancing on a girder, frowning back at the oncoming killer droids that leapt from beam to beam below him like malevolent durasteel primates. Though he could feel its close approach, he had no idea from where their destruction might come...until the Force showed him a support beam within reach of his blade and whispered, now. His blade flicked out and the durasteel beam parted, fresh-cut edges glowing white hot, and a great hulk of ship-sized cargo container that the beam had been supporting tore free of its other supports with shrieks of anguished metal and crashed down upon all three MagnaGuards with the finality of a meteor strike.

Two, three, and four. Oh, thought Obi-Wan with detached approval. That worked out rather well. Only ten thousand to go. Give or take. An instant later the Force had him hurtling through a storm of blasterfire as every combat droid in the control center opened up on him at once. Letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him toward Grievous: not where Grievous was, but where Grievous would be when Obi-Wan got there...

Leaping girder to girder, slashing cables on which to swing through swarms of ricocheting particle beams, blade flickering so fast it became a deflector shield that splattered blaster bolts in all directions, his presence alone became a weapon: as he spun and whirled through the control center's superstructure, the blasts of particle cannons from power droids destroyed equipment and shattered girders and unleashed a torrent of red-hot debris that crashed to the deck, crushing droids on all sides. By the time he flipped down through the air to land cat-footed on the deck once more, nearly half the droids between him and Grievous had been destroyed by their own not-so-friendly fire. He cut his way into the mob of remaining troops as smoothly as if it were no more than a canebrake near some sunlit beach; his steady pace left behind a trail of smoking slices of droid.

"Keep firing!" Grievous roared to the spider droids that flanked him. "Blast him!"

Obi-Wan felt the massive shoulder cannon of a spider droid track him, and he felt it fire a bolt as powerful as a proton grenade, and he let the Force nudge him into a leap that carried him just far enough toward the fringe of the bolt's blast radius so that instead of shattering his bones it merely gave him a very strong, very hot push-that sent him whirling over the rest of the droids to land directly in front of Grievous.

A single slash of his lightsaber amputated the shoulder cannon of one power droid and continued into a spinning Force-assisted kick that brought his boot heel to the point of the other power droid's duranium chin, snapping the droid's head back hard enough to sever its cervical sensor cables. Blind and deaf, the power droid could only continue to obey its last order; it staggered in a wild circle, its convulsively firing cannon blasting random holes in droids and walls alike, until Obi-Wan deactivated it with a precise thrust that burned a thumb-sized hole through its thoracic braincase.

"General," Obi-Wan said with blandly polite smile as though unexpectedly greeting, on the street, someone he privately disliked.

Perhaps you're just very surprised by how powerful force-amped, experienced Jedi Knights are but your surprise is not an argument against them being this powerful. I don't know where you ever got the idea that Obi-wan Kenobi can only deal with "20+ blows in a second" but as shown in the novel he's literally taken out an entire army of 10,000+ droids all firing on him simultaneously. I keep trying to explain to people how the Force works, you can't call it forth like a power or compel it to amp you. The Force works through you, it uses your body like a conduit. You have to enter a state of being that makes you receptive to it.

Will you finally accept what the novels clearly show and concede that Sasuke has no chance whatsoever against Anakin?

@princearagorn1:

Out of curiosity, how powerful do you think asura the destructor is? output/speed etc.?

Massively FTL star-buster. Those are the only unambiguous feats he ever showed.

@dredeuced:

You are lumping a bunch of characters into a fairly arbitrary tier ("herald") and saying it is impossible for anyone in that group to speed blitz someone of a higher tier (using pure power as a reasoning), despite all of those characters having vastly different powers and speeds, as well as people on the higher tier having different powers and speeds. You are basing your premise on a tier list set up in your own head with little basis -- Surfer is not equivalent to Gladiator is not equivalent to Majestic is not equivalent to The Flash and so on and so forth, they are different characters and you should treat them differently beyond just saying, "Well, I think this guy is Herald-level and a Herald-level character cannot win."

Majestic = Gladiator = Silver Surfer = Thanos with respect to speed.These are all herald level characters because they all have roughly the same speed, roughly the same durability, roughly the same destructive capacity, etc. What other powers they have or possess is irrelevant. They're all FTL with nanosecond reaction speed. Speed is really the only thing that matters in this thread because the only argument for why Majestic even has a 1% chance of victory is the speed blitz argument.

Furthermore, you're using the same straw man fallacy tactics as WillPayton. I never said that it was "impossible" for a herald level character to speed blitz someone in a higher tier. You just made this up. I acknowledged there may be exceptions but that what I'm saying is generally true. And it's certainly true in this particular case.

You specifically brought up Surfer fighting Thanos, as if Surfer has ever demonstrated consistently lightspeed combat, as a reason why no one with FTL movement speed could blitz Thanos and that that has, what, a transitive property with it being impossible to speed blitz Odin? Heck, Surfer did basically blitz Thanos during IG when he was on his board, he just missed.

Characters have different writers over different books spanning decades. Honestly no character has consistent feats. That's just an illusion debaters use to help themselves to make it easier to debate these hypothetical fights. So, your point is irrelevant because it's self-defeating. If the feats aren't consistent, then how do we gauge the extent of a character's abilities? There's no point in debating if we can't keep the feats straight. That's why I said that all these characters are roughly equivalent. FTL w/ Nanosecond reaction speed.

Another problem I have with your line of thought, is your one-sided view of other peoples' one-sided views, amusingly enough. People bring up the idea that Majestic could kill Odin by cutting off his head and your first thought is, and I'm obviously paraphrasing, "Well, that's not the only thing Majestic ever does in a fight and therefore your argument is suspect." There's nothing wrong with this logic, specifically, but you go on to insinuate these people of trying to cherrypick how the fight plays out for Majestic while doing it yourself -- you say nothing of how Odin has approached most of the fights he's been in in continuity.

Really? Let me quote myself:

What I'm asking is how will Majestic know, in a random encounter, that his only way to win is speed blitz + decapitation? How will he know that the only way to win the fight is immediate incapacitation or death? He can't possibly know that before hand.

How about again:

Does Majestic start every fight by speed blitzing and going for the kill? No. Therefore, I need you to explain why Majestic would just happen to choose the only possible way for him to win at the start of this fight. It can't just be arbitrary. You can't just choose the method that's most convenient for Majestic to win because you think that's a viable option for Majestic to win. Majestic has to choose this method strategically. And without prior knowledge about Odin I don't see why he would choose the strategy of speed blitzing + decapitation as his immediate and only attack.

Now what did you accuse me of cherry picking? I never claimed that Majestic definitely would or would not do anything. I claimed that it's hard to see why Majestic would just happen to start the fight in the only way it would be possible for him to win. Again, you just used a straw man fallacy.

You're happy to bring up "herald tier" characters over and over, so what happens when Odin goes up against beings who aren't Galactus/Celestial or even Skyfather level in your eyes? Thanos? Surfer? Thor? These dudes you like to lump together? He sits there and tanks their attacks to show them how pitiful they are then swats them away harmlessly without ever doing permanent damage to them. You yourself have brought up before how Odin clearly wasn't going all out in his fight with Thanos or Thanos couldn't possibly survive, despite the fact that he came in very pissed at Thanos(this goes for Surfer like, 3 separate times, as well). If you're going to call people out for unfairly playing the fight out to benefit one character, maybe you should actually go in depth in how the fight plays out and apply it to Odin as well.

Odin is a universal threat. This has been established through multiple feats. So either it's WIS/PIS or Odin wasn't going all out. You take your pick. What's clear is that it's a great durability feat for Thanos either way. I don't see how me pointing this out is being biased. No one believes that Thanos can actually survive against Odin, so I'm clearly not in the minority.

TL;DR

People of a higher level of power do not automatically get to be assumed to be superior at 100% of everything as people on a generally lower level of power. Intellect, speed, telepathy, and other exotic abilities are things people of "lower" power can match and sometimes exceed higher beings in (It's how Professor X can combat, say, Phoenix, an actual psionic entity of a WAY higher tier, in a decent fight before going down). This gets even more muddied when you start adding high powered gear to those lower level beings(Runner with the space gem is faster than Galactus, Runner with the Space Gem is not more outright powerful than Galactus, as an example). If you're going to call people out for addressing the way the fight plays out to bias one side then, at the very least, explain how you think the fight would go for both characters or else you're kind of doing the same thing in Odin's favor by saying Majestic's one tactic is rendered moot because you think it's his only possible line to victory -- it might not be considering Odin's past fights with "herald" level people, as you put it.

I never claimed that people of a higher level of power should automatically be assumed to win. That's another straw man fallacy on your part. Again, how many times do I have to repeat myself? I've already acknowledged that there may be exceptions but it's rare. Giorno Giovanni is not a herald level character but his stand is ridiculously haxed. His stand has infinite reaction speed, reduces an opponent's willpower to 0, manipulates causality, and requires multiversal reality warping to get around. And Giorno Giovanni is a human. But he would beat the hell out of Odin.

@willpayton:

No, that's not an argument, that's just something you're claiming to be true... i.e. your assertion. An argument is where you give reasons to support your assertion.

I don't know how many different times I have to write the same thing. This has been my argument the entire time. Just because you kept ignoring it (not paying attention to my other posts, quoting the non-essential elements of my post, etc.) doesn't mean the argument wasn't there. That's your problem, not mine.

1) The reason you normally dont see character defeat much more powerful ones through sheer speed is because they cant dish out enough damage. The speed might be there to hit first, but it's irrelevant. That's not the case here were Majestic does have the ability to hurt Odin.

First, this is your assertion. Oh, the irony...

Second, your point is a non-sequitur. Even if I granted your premise, which is that sometimes characters of a different tier have the speed to get in the first hit but lack the ability to dish out enough damage, how does it, therefore, follow that Majestic is fast enough to speed blitz Odin? I've now repeated myself at least 5-10 different times in this thread, so let me bold it and underline it for you: I DON'T CARE IF MAJESTIC HAS THE POWER TO HURT ODIN WITH THE CREATION BLADES, YOU HAVE TO PROVE THAT HE HAS THE SPEED TO HURT ODIN.

Why do I have to keep repeating myself? I have never denied that the creation blades can hurt Odin. I've never denied how powerful the creation blades are. All I've done is question the fact that people, without evidence, keep arguing that Majestic can speed blitz Odin.

Third, again you've simply ignored my posts. It's like you are simply determined to straw man my arguments. This is what I just wrote:

Furthermore, you claim it's my "assertion" and I "didn't give any argument or evidence to support it." Okay...so what do you call this:

Either you're strong enough to defeat your opponent so speed is useless or you're not strong enough to beat your opponent so speed is useless. Speed is never the deciding factor when someone is on a higher tier than you.

That's not an argument? There are very few exceptions to what I wrote, especially in comics like Marvel and DC.

I didn't claim that what I was saying was absolutely true or 100% true, I claimed that there are few exceptions to what I say. This time is obviously not an exception.

2) You keep talking about "tiers" as if there really is such a thing. There isnt. Sure, we talk about it to simplify certain arguments, but in practical terms there are not different tiers where everyone falls into these buckets of power. There are many characters that fall in between these "tiers". For example, there are many characters like Alan Scott, Superboy Prime, Silver Surfer, Darkseid, and Sentry who depending on their showings can range from Superman-level to skyfather-level. There are characters like Spider-Man who are in between street-levelers and Superman-level.

I don't see how this is relevant to anything I wrote. Again, please pay attention to what I write and stop using straw man fallacies. This is what I wrote on the first page:

This is like arguing that someone could potentially speedblitz Franklin Richards or Galactus. When you put these type of characters in a fight, it doesn't come down to a matter of speed.

Then I wrote this to you on the first page:

If you're strong enough to fight on par with people like Odin, Galactus or Franklin Richards you don't need speed. Speed becomes superfluous when you're a universal threat or a reality warper. What use is speed to a reality warper? Or somebody who can stop time? Or bust a universe?

Then I had to repeat myself and wrote this on the first page:

If you're strong enough to fight on par with people like Odin, Galactus or Franklin Richards you don't need speed. My point is this: In fights involving high level beings, it's almost always the case that if you out-match your opponent in one respect, then you outmatch your opponent in all other respects. There's no such thing as Odin being faster than Galactus but being outmatched in every other respect.

Seriously, how many times do I have to write the same thing over and over and over again? I'm not talking about people below skyfather level. I'm talking about skyfather level and up. Then I also wrote this:

If someone is on a higher tier than you, then speed won't help you. If someone is on a lower tier than you, then speed isn't necessary. If someone is in the same tier as you, you're roughly equal. And the higher up you go the less important speed becomes because the tiers are so clearly delineated.

So, for the final time. Not only did I NOT claim that what I was saying was absolute or 100% certain, but I'm not even talking about characters below skyfathers. I have been saying the same thing over and over and over: In fights involving high level characters (universal threats and up) it is almost never the case that these types of characters can be speed blitzed by people who are less powerful than they are. I don't understand why you're having such a hard time understanding what I'm saying. I've been saying the same thing over and over and over since this thread started. And all you seem to do is ignore what I write and then use a straw man.

and finally,

3) Even though you make an argument here, it really just boils down to this idea of tiers and nothing else. Even if I buy that there are these tiers, you dont explain why being in a higher tier automatically makes speed a non-factor when fighting someone in a lower tier.... and especially so when that "low tier" person has weapons that can clearly hurt or kill that higher-tier person. You just make another assertion that these tiers automatically do this. You said:

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. You just refuse to read what I write. I don't know why. Perhaps since you made this thread you really don't want to accept that it's not a fair fight. Let me quote myself yet again:

The demarcation between tiers means that the person who is higher up than you is simply more powerful than you are; and by more powerful I mean outclassed in every way. Try to think of some hypothetical matches and you'll easily see what I'm talking about. Can Odin speed blitz Beyonder? Can Galactus speed blitz LT? Can Franklin Richards speed blitz the Dreaming Celestial? All the people I'm naming don't have any speed feats or reaction speed feats and yet the idea that they can be speed blitzed is obviously ridiculous.

The explanation for why someone in a higher tier doesn't need to be concerned with someone in a lower tier should be obvious to you: The difference in power is so significant that it's not even worth entertaining the idea that they can be speed blitzed. And I pointed this out to you with the Flash and Franklin Richards example. The power difference between Odin and Majestic is so great that in order to accept your argument I would have to disregard every instance where Odin beat up somebody who had nanosecond reaction speed (for example Silver Surfer) and instead accept that anybody who has nanosecond reaction speed and FTL speed can speed blitz Odin (Thanos, Silver Surfer, Gladiator, Sentry, etc.) For the final time, think about what your argument implies. It implies that if you gave Thanos the creation blades he could speed blitz Odin. If you gave Silver Surfer the creation blades he could speed blitz Odin. If you gave Gladiator the creation blades he could speed blitz Odin. Etc., etc., etc., The idea is ridiculous that any FTL nanosecond reaction herald level character can speed blitz Odin. Odin is a universal threat and you want me to believe he can be speed blitzed by a Superman knock off? No.

As for your scans, they're irrelevant. Hopefully you've taken my advice, carefully read my argument, and understand why.

@dredeuced:

In the hypothetical world where Majestic could speed blitz Odin, why would that not be relevant? The creation blades have disabled someone far more powerful than Odin.

Did you read what I wrote or did you just post this because...why? I've said repeatedly in this thread that Majestic can't speed blitz Odin unless you think that any character with nanosecond reactions and FTL speed can. I don't care how powerful the creation blades are. I've never disputed how powerful they are. But that has absolutely nothing to do with my argument.

Majestic himself is on a lower tier than Odin, but his gear is not. This applies with lots of stuff. Odin can stomp Thanos, but give Thanos an infinity gauntlet and Odin is rendered pointless. The creation blades are unique in that they don't boost the power of the user so much as they have a singular function as swords so it relies on the user's ability to fight with them to get the best out of them (which is depower a guy strong enough to take on universal level reality warpers).

Again, this is irrelevant. Please read what I write next time. Every new person who comes into this thread repeats the same thing over and over without ever reading my actual arguments.

That's exactly what I'm saying and I have the evidence to prove it.

@willpayton: What I quoted and what you quoted are clearly not the same. In any event, why would you not quote the part that comes right after, "My point is this:"? When somebody declares what their point is that's usually the heart of their argument. You don't disregard that and then quote something else.

Furthermore, you claim it's my "assertion" and I "didn't give any argument or evidence to support it." Okay...so what do you call this:

Either you're strong enough to defeat your opponent so speed is useless or you're not strong enough to beat your opponent so speed is useless. Speed is never the deciding factor when someone is on a higher tier than you.

That's not an argument? There are very few exceptions to what I wrote, especially in comics like Marvel and DC. Non-skyfathers don't beat skyfathers via speed blitz. Skyfathers don't beat universal beings like Galactus via speedblitz. Universal beings don't beat Celestials via speed blitz. Etc. If someone is on a higher tier than you, then speed won't help you. If someone is on a lower tier than you, then speed isn't necessary. If someone is in the same tier as you, you're roughly equal. And the higher up you go the less important speed becomes because the tiers are so clearly delineated. The demarcation between tiers means that the person who is higher up than you is simply more powerful than you are; and by more powerful I mean outclassed in every way. Try to think of some hypothetical matches and you'll easily see what I'm talking about. Can Odin speed blitz Beyonder? Can Galactus speed blitz LT? Can Franklin Richards speed blitz the Dreaming Celestial? All the people I'm naming don't have any speed feats or reaction speed feats and yet the idea that they can be speed blitzed is obviously ridiculous. That's why when people say stuff like, "Flash can speed blitz Franklin Richards," I just disregard them. The difference in power is so great that it's not even worth considering or discussing.

@whoisme:

That ship is fictional, futuristic technology that you and I have no idea how it works. How do you know the pilot has to react at light speed in order for the ship to react at light speed (if you have evidence I want to see it)? Also, even if he can move his hands at light speed, that doesn't prove he can run or move his limbs that fast.

The ship works by someone piloting it. That's how ships in Star Wars work. There's no speculation about it.

If an object is coming at someone at sub-light speed, the pilot has to react before the object reaches them, therefore, the pilot who reacts to the object must be faster than the object coming at them. That means they must have sub-light reaction speed. Not really sure why you're confused.

That's not how the force works; the force amps your whole body. It doesn't amp just your fingers or just your hands or particular parts of your body. It's not Anakin moving his hands or his legs or his body, it's the force. Do you know anything about Star Wars?

Would Anakin's lightsaber even work against Sussano? Laser swords have been blocked by other constructs of energy (force fields, other light sabers, etc.)

Sasuke would never had a chance to put up Susano'o because...speed blitz. Even if he was fast enough to put it up, which he's not, he would be TK crushed.

Couldn't Sasuke just use a substitution jutsu or short distance teleportation to counter the force choke or push?

Anakin's perception + speed is so much faster than Sasuke's that teleportation would be useless. Anakin would just blitz him with a lightsaber or TK crush him...again and again and again. There's no way to avoid it.