thewidowsbite

@Deranged Midget said:

Lana's image has forever be plagued by the horrible performance of Kristin Kreuk. And no, Superman's true love is Lois.

Um, no. Kristen Kreuk did an AMAZING job as Lana and her chemistry with Tom Welling was what made their relationship so believable. The only thing I didn't particularly care for in that version was her relationship with Lex, but even then Lana became a real cold bada$$ in season 6 like when she shot open Lex's briefcase and when she was willing to let him die in that cave-in, only agreeing to help Chloe save him when she knew Clark was trapped too. And Lois WAS Superman's true love. As of the new 52, all bets are off. It could be Lana, it could be Lois. Hell, it could be Batman if DC REALLY wanted to do something unexpected. That would be pretty interesting to see if not just once.

On her page in the powers section describing her diamond form it states that she is "telepathically immune to all but a couple of telepaths". Which telepaths? Any scans that indicate this?

Now it's really late where I am, so I'll be turning in. I look forward to debating with you guys tomorrow. So far I like some of the reasoning and examples I've been getting.

@god_spawn: Then why not stick to what this thread is even about? If it's so irrelevant then ignore it and bring up more logical reasons why Logan would beat Dick, Dick, not anyone else. Consider Dick's abilities and intellect and then tell me why you think Logan would still win. All you've been doing is trying to refute anything I had to say about Slade, which I've said time and time again, was only an example. Now try to stay on topic and give me some possibilities. Since they haven't actually fought, nobody on here really knows what would happen. All we can do is give the best reasoning and examples we can as to one of the possibilities as to the outcome of such battles. I've tried my best to explain why Dick could win. I never said that he would definitely win, all I've said from the start is that it could happen and why I think it would.

@god_spawn said:

@thewidowsbite said:

@god_spawn:

@thewidowsbite: He hasn't been killed because Slade hasn't attempted to. I think CitizenBane up there has done a crystal clear of going through plenty of instances to prove that. If Dick Grayson had consistently done well and made Slade reaaaaaally work for it, then your argument might work.

Honestly, I can't believe we've been talking about Slade this long. I only wanted to bring him up as an example that Dick can survive opponents far more powerful or skilled than him. Fighting Logan is a whole other scenario.

The reason I keep coming back to it is it is an argument with a hole in it. If you were to lock Slade and Deathstroke in a cage and told them to fight to the death, Slade would have Grayson DOA of the floor in moments.

Again, that is Slade, Not Logan. Logan without the benefit of his greatest weapons would not beat Dick so easily. That's all I'm saying.

@CitizenBane said:

@thewidowsbite said:

@CitizenBane said:

@thewidowsbite said:

But Dick's has consistently displayed impressive fighting skill and is regarded as one of his world's best.

No, he's not. I could name at least a dozen fighters who are out of Dick's league in terms of skill.

Yes he is. I said one of, not the best. I'm sure he isn't even in the top fifteen. Of course he is inferior to the likes of Batman, Shiva, Karate Kid and others, but he is one of the best. The top twenty, hell, fifty, would be one of the best considering how many fighters there are in his world.

I am not sure how not even being in the top 15 qualifies you as one of the best fighters in DC considering that there are less than a hundred street levelers worth mentioning.

Maybe what I said was taken out of context. But I said what I said because you mentioned twelve people who could beat him. Just because he can be bested by people, doesn't mean isn't one of the best fighters in terms of actual skill. It takes more than skill to win a fight. You have to be able to outsmart, outmaneuver, out-muscle, or whatever in order to win. There are many factors that can make a person, especially in fiction and the presence of above-human skills, win or lose a battle. Dick has had his share of battles and has faced opponents with powers, he wins some, he loses some. I'm just saying, if the circumstances were right and if he thought up a good strategy, Dick could win.

@god_spawn:

@thewidowsbite: He hasn't been killed because Slade hasn't attempted to. I think CitizenBane up there has done a crystal clear of going through plenty of instances to prove that. If Dick Grayson had consistently done well and made Slade reaaaaaally work for it, then your argument might work.

Honestly, I can't believe we've been talking about Slade this long. I only wanted to bring him up as an example that Dick can survive opponents far more powerful or skilled than him. Fighting Logan is a whole other scenario.

@CitizenBane said:

@thewidowsbite said:

But Dick's has consistently displayed impressive fighting skill and is regarded as one of his world's best.

No, he's not. I could name at least a dozen fighters who are out of Dick's league in terms of skill.

Yes he is. I said one of, not the best. I'm sure he isn't even in the top fifteen. Of course he is inferior to the likes of Batman, Shiva, Karate Kid and others, but he is one of the best. The top twenty, hell, fifty, would be one of the best considering how many fighters there are in his world.

@CitizenBane said:

@thewidowsbite said:

@CitizenBane said:

@thewidowsbite said:

@CitizenBane: Touché about Elektra. But about Deathstroke I never said that Dick has beat him, I said that he's held his own. And if Deathstroke was contracted to kill Dick and the Teen Titans, why didn't he kill him? Why didn't he kill him at any other encounter they'd ever had? I only brought up Deathstroke to make the point that Dick can at least hold his own against opponents more powerful than him. And Deathstroke shooting Dick is completely irrelevant since Logan doesn't use guns and because it is common knowledge that Dick is human, being shot would make any normal human suffer no matter how skilled they are. I just think that there is a chance that Dick could outsmart Logan. There is a chance that he might be too nimble for Logan to even tag him before he eventually tires out. Well, maybe Dick would tire out first, but there's a chance nevertheless that he could win.

When was Slade ever contracted to kill the Titans? He hates them because he has this long vendetta, his sons, blah blah. Slade has never wanted to kill Dick. In the encounter where he two-shotted him, he just wanted Dick to get the hell out of his way. In the encounter where Dick himself admitted that Slade could kill him without breaking a sweat, he just wanted Dick to mind his own business and let him sell Man-Bat. And so on. He could kill Dick with a substantial amount of ease if he actually wanted to. I brought up Slade taking down Nightwing with one bullet to show how simple it would be for him to take down the former boy wonder. In that same story, Slade actually stopped by Dick's apartment to tell him that he was in town to kill someone, and asked what it would take for Dick to stay out of his way so the job could go smoothly. He has simply never felt like killing Grayson.

I believe I heard somewhere that Deathstroke was originally hired to kill the Titans and then his son got involved and tried to do the job and died and then Deathstroke had his vendetta, I;m not sure. My point is that he intended to kill Dick and the Titans and failed. Maybe it was because of the presence of the other Titans that Dick survived. One bullet would kill or seriously injure any normal human. Any thug who managed to get the drop on him could have done the same, Deathstroke being Deathstroke doesn't make that any more true because he fired a gun. Besides I don't see what that has to do with this particular scenario since firearms are definitely not a factor. Besides without his healing factor, the exact same thing would have happened to Logan.

Fine, fine, set aside the bullet incident, there are still other instances of Grayson losing to Slade and not flat out dying simply because Slade didn't feel like it. Your argument that Dick can contend with Slade because he wasn't killed by him when Slade fought the Titans team is somewhat akin to arguing that Speedy can contend with Superboy-Prime since she wasn't killed by him on both occasions that Prime fought the Titans.

That's a good point. But those are two other people and a whole other situation. Besides, the fact that Superboy-Prime didn't kill almost everybody there, no matter how much I and everyone else loves them, is PIS. He would have torn them all to shreds. I'm only saying that Deathstroke and Dick have faced of, at least for a couple of panels in every battle, any one of them he could have killed Dick. And why would Deathstroke not want to kill him or the other Titans? What would he gain by merely beating them? He's a mercinary, not some thug wanting to humiliate them.

@god_spawn said:

@thewidowsbite: I know you didn't mention Tim or Jason. The point of me bringing it up is the quality of a trainer doesn't necessarily guarantee merit in fighting skills. Managing to survive against someone in a barely supportive fashion does not also grant merit. He's gotten his butt kicked by Slade too many times to really use it as a credible feat.

I think being able to survive someone with Slade's particular abilities (I mean, being able to use 90% of your brainpower is actually incredible powerful, he probably should have been able to kill him, not merely beat him, at least once) especially as a normal human with absolutely no powers is amazing. Yes if he managed to beat him it would be even more amazing, but at least being able to tell the tale says something. Do you think that being trained by Batman doesn't mean Dick isn't a skilled fighter? Scratch that. I get that, I could have been trained by Batman and have no skill whatsoever. But Dick's has consistently displayed impressive fighting skill and is regarded as one of his world's best.