@ultraphoenix said:
@thetruebarryallen: Clicking on the profile leads to a 404 but I can still see his account through this link.
Odd.
TheTrueBarryAllen's forum posts
@thewatcherking said:
Hopefully Vulcan doesn’t deactivate this time
Fingers crossed?
Round 2 | The Countering
I'm going to cut to the chase -- I don't think you're representing your characters with truth or accuracy.
When I first read your introductory post I noticed several scans that were being misrepresented; either lacking context or being highly exaggerated. I told you this on discord and you mentioned that you binge/skimmed 200 - 300 issues over several days in preparation for this debate and that there are bound to be some details that you missed or things that might've slipped your mind when posting scans.
What I found after doing a deep-dive to confirm said misrepresentation changes this debate entirely. The level of misrepresentation combined with the hyperbolic and often exaggerated (or sensationalized) style of debate that you employ makes your post look far more impressive than it actually is when put under scrutiny.
Let's dismantle your argument, together.
NOTE: I'll be linking to a lot of scans to provide story-context that my opponent failed to acknowledge when making the majority of his claims. I apologize in advance for the length of this post.
Swamp Thing: A Closer Look
First on the chopping block is Swamp Thing. The Avatar of the Green who you're touting as a nigh-unstoppable planet elemental.
While I do agree that Swamp Thing has a variety of esoteric abilities that can make him highly dangerous he's nowhere near the level of power you're claiming.
Physicals
While I doubt this match will come to a decision via physical blows I aim to be thorough in my deconstruction of your argument.
Your first incorrect claim comes from Captain Atom #17 (1987). You state:
Even indirectly, he is capable of growing vines strong enough to physically restrain and one-shot Captain Atom, putting him in a near-death/comatose state according to Mister Miracle.
This is false. We can see Captain Atom escaping said vines with an energy blast in the scans you posted.
While it does look like Captain Atom is incapacitated in that final panel it is NOT due to the strength of Swamp Thing's vines but was because Swamp Thing brought Captain Atom into the Astral Plane via The Green.
You can even find this scan in the Swamp Thing Respect Thread (that I know you used, the links match) on Reddit under the 'teleportation' section. I advise you not rely on that Respect Thread as it's riddled with misinformation.
Your second incorrect claim comes from Justice League Dark #39(2011). You state:
His vines are lethal enough that they were capable of destroying time gremlins which are literally embodiment of thought, sending them back to "the non-existence that birthed them".
This is an example of the hyperbole of your arguments as the "Time Gremlins" are feat-less.
While it is true that Swamp Thing was able to cut them with his vines we also saw other members of the JLD dispatch of these foes. Andrew Bennett did the same by transforming into a flock of bats & Frankenstein is able to punch through several of them.
They're 100% shown as fodder-type creatures who exist en-masse to be destroyed. Their description as "the embodiment of thought" sounds great on paper but when actually testing their capabilities they're on the low-end of the strength spectrum.
Draining & Absorption / Regeneration & Immortality
Given the important placed on the draining & absorbing argument in this debate I'm going to spend a lot of time here.
Here you make several incorrect claims regarding events occurring throughout Justice League Dark #36 - 40 (2011).
You first state:
When it comes to absorption though, I don't think anyone can surpass Swamp Thing's feat of absorbing the entirety of The Green into himself through a single flower.
I don't understand why you see this as an impressive feat & here's why.
- Firstly, at the top of that issue Swamp Thing has a near-death experience because The Green had apparently been obliterated. This, you showed us.
- Then, Swamp Thing is saved by Nightmare Nurse who uses a stabilizing enchantment to allow him to hold on to life just a bit longer -- narration is in the previous scan.
- Later in the issue Swamp Thing is "killed" so to speak. We don't see him creating a new body, he doesn't regenerate on some other planet, for all intents and purposes he appears dead. Felix Faust explains that there may be a way to save him however.
- Faust reveals that he managed to protect both a sunbeam and a single rose while the world was being destroyed around him. This was concealed behind "a hundred complex spells" which resulted in it being SO WELL HIDDEN that not even Swamp Thing could sense it.
- Lastly, Frankenstein physically moves the vegetative corpse of Swamp Thing so that it's touching the flower. Swamp Thing draws power from it and rejoins the land of the living -- we see this in the previous scan.
So I ask you all -- my opponent and the readers, how is this impressive? Swamp Thing is completely incapacitated and fails to sense the source of his power due to Faust's concealment spells.
Even IF we ignore all of that context and focus purely on Swamp Thing absorbing The Green I have to ask, who cares? It's not a foreign power to him, he's the CHAMPION OF THE GREEN, he is it's chosen defender. The fact that you present this as a feat that you don't think anyone can surpass is massive exaggeration.
However let's continue and examine next claim, which ties into your argument regarding his regeneration and immortality:
Despite the Universe literally being gone and all of The Green having already been absorbed into himself, who was destroyed, (meaning The Green was logically destroyed along with him) Swamp Thing was able to regenerate a new body inside the House of Mystery (which again lies beyond space/time/reality) by establishing a brand new connection to The Green with the plants present.
To fully understand why this is false we need to examine this story-arc as a whole.
- In JLD #38 we see members of the JLD being brought to a planet by an entity known as the World Tree. This tree is the root of all creation -- it plants seeds and from those seeds come various universes.
- In that same issue the World Tree uses it's creation ability to create (or re-create, even the comic isn't sure) the House of Mystery.
- In JLD #39 the JLD comes into contact with Pralaya, a primordial entity that embodies the void. The end result of this conflict is Zatanna basically saying "go ahead, kill us" and so Pralaya does.
- In JLD #40 we see the HOM still standing and inside of it is John Constantine. This is not the real John but a magical reflection created by Zatanna. In fact, we met this reflection in JLD #38 and when the HOM was re/created by the World Tree it decided to place the reflection inside.
- The fake John makes a reflection of Zatanna and explains the HOM hid itself while Pralaya began to devour universes -- it's why it wasn't destroyed. Unfortunately, this doesn't last too long as Pralaya notices and begins to attack the HOM, but the World Tree had a plan.
- John and Zatanna work their magic on a seedling that's planted inside the HOM greenhouse and from it rises Swamp Thing. John explains that as long as life exists in the HOM greenhouse then there's a connection to the Green, even if every other trace of it had been extinguished. The Swamp Thing we see is simply an aspect of him as the actual Swamp Thing (Alec Holland) was indeed devoured by Pralya in the previous issue.
The conflicts with the logic you attempted to apply in your statement. The Green wasn't destroyed completely (like you claimed) as there was still some of it in the HOM.
Also Swamp Thing didn't regenerate by his own power -- it was due to the magic that John and Zatanna placed on the seedling.
Let's continue.
Cosmic Awareness & Senses
Your master-plan places great emphasis on the omnipresence of your team but I fear it's not as great as you claim.
Your first example looks at a series of pages from Swamp Thing #80 (1982) in which you quote:
Swamp Thing states that he "extends the network of his sensations to every nook and cranny of his habitat", which finds him running his mental fingers through the thick carpets of the forests covering 40% of the planets surface, all the way from the tundra and the rain forests to the endless meadows of wildflowers, to the deepest oceans and tallest mountains and the swirling clouds and winds.
So far, this is true. You go on to highlight your favorite part.
The second scan is when he straight up says that a tiny part of him looks out from every multifaceted insect eye, and another part of him revels in the joys of schools of fish as they swim through the oceans, and he even shares the thoughts, desires and fears of every human on the planet... all through just senses and awareness.
Unfortunately this is where we need to look at the whole picture. Looking at the pages following this one we see that Swamp Thing is unable to deal with that much sensory input and he becomes overwhelmed, fleeing the planet to escape.
Acting like this is the common level at which Swamp Thing's awareness sits at is a sham.
Your second example looks at an instance in Justice League Dark #25 (2011) where Nightmare Nurse had removed a piece of Swamp Thing. The purpose was to make a cutting from a plant to grow a duplicate.
Unfortunately for her Swamp Thing noticed and calls her a fool: "Did you actually believe you could remove a part of me and create something other? I'm like a biological hologram. Each piece contains the whole."
Your claim:
This isn't even his best feat in that regard. Swamp Thing's senses actually transcend space and time, and are unbounded by any physical or metaphysical realm. Nightmare Nurse sliced off a piece of Swamp Thing then escaped to the House of Mystery where she regrew a duplicate of him with genetic modifications. But Swamp Thing was able to sense it, locate them, and appear.
That's a reach considering Swamp Thing directly states that each piece contains the whole. He never lost contact with the piece and Nightmare Nurse didn't do anything to try and "hide" it -- she just didn't think Swamp Thing would notice,
We already know it's possible to prevent Swamp Thing from sensing things as Felix Faust was able to hide The Green from him.
Your final claim of omnipresence is connected to Swamp Thing becoming the planet. I've designated an entire section of this post to tear down that argument.
Elemental Manipulation & Planet Fusion
This is a major component of your argument but it's unfortunately a non-factor.
Swamp Thing obtained this one-time amp at the end of a story written by Mark Millar that spans Swamp Thing #144 - 171 (1982). Throughout the course of the arc the following happens:
- In Swamp Thing #150 (1982) Swamp Thing defeats the champion chosen by the Parliament of Stones and is given the ability to manipulate that element.
- In Swamp Thing #158 (1982) Swamp Thing accepts to take the place of a stillborn water elemental named Anna and is given the ability to manipulate that element.
- In Swamp Thing #164 (1982) Swamp Thing is forcibly given access to the abilities of an air elemental by the Parliament of Vapors. He is not happy with this.
- In Swamp Thing #170 (1982) Swamp Thing is bestowed power by the Parliament of Flames.
This was a setup by all of the Parliaments so that they could rid Earth of humanity. They wanted Swamp Thing to become the planet and carry out this task. Though once Swamp Thing HAD this power he no longer felt that he could annihilate mankind so he lets them be. This is how the issue (and that run of Swamp Thing) ends.
You posted a scan from the Swamp Thing #5 (2004) which is the following series. In it Swamp Thing still has access to all the elements and makes the claim that he is earth and air, fire and water, flesh and root, finally united.
Conveniently you left out what happens in the NEXT issue. In Swamp Thing #6 (2004) we see that Swamp Thing had been manipulated by Sargon who sought to steal his power. When the two fight Sargon has the upper hand and begins leeching Swamp Thing's powers and using them against him.
The only way for Swamp Thing to defend against this draining is to relinquish all of his elemental abilities, which he does.
This means that Swamp Thing being able to "become the Earth" was the result of a one-time power amp and it isn't consistent with the majority of the character's showings.
I spoke with ET about how we're handling such situations since we ARE using composite characters and he said that one-time amps would not be included normally -- there are potential exceptions but they have to be stated or confirmed by him, an example being Cyborg Superman having the Lantern Rings.
I mentioned this context to him and he decided that unless you can re-obtain these powers during prep that you wouldn't have access to these abilities. I highly doubt that you'll be able to get power from each of the other parliaments during the one-hour prep you have.
The fallout from this:
- Swamp Thing's cosmic awareness has been completely nullified. He does not display sensory abilities of that capacity in his normal state.
- Swamp Thing only has access to The Green; his elemental manipulation is limited to plant life.
If you want to somehow argue that you somehow DO have this power then I'd like to look at how Sargon was able to easily leech this power from Swamp Thing. A magic user on Mordru's scale would easily be able to replicate such a feat and we've seen Mordru simply "steal" high tier magic like when he ripped the Starheart from Alan Scott.
Size Manipulation
This will be short -- you won't be able to shrink my fusion with Swamp Thing's powers. You make this claim citing Captain Atom #17 (1987) which you misrepresented earlier:
Swamp Thing can shrink himself and other people, such as in this instance with Captain Atom.
He isn't shrinking him. They're in the astral plane and they're simply flying into a protective field provided by Brainwave Jr. who was searching for Captain Atom.
Again -- the Swamp Thing RT on Reddit did you wrong.
Conclusion
Swamp Thing is not nearly as strong as you've presented him to be and you've misrepresented a majority of the feats you put emphasis on.
He lacks the omnipresence/cosmic awareness that you claim he has and is easily overwhelmed on a sensory level. His elemental manipulation is limited to plant life and even if you someone argue that he DOES have access to all the elements it was shown that Swamp Thing is weak to draining.
He's become quite the non-factor in this fight -- once you rip The Green from him there's not much that he can offer your team and thus I believe Swamp Thing has been effectively countered.
Solar: A Closer Look
Next up is Solar -- the backbone of your team. While I agree that he's powerful I think he has vital weaknesses that you've ignored or misrepresented which will be his downfall.
Furthermore much of Solar's capabilities as you've shown them are the result of your hyperbolic nature -- you utilize a lot of statements but don't have as much of Solar ACTUALLY DOING the things you claim.
Solar is a fitting character for you given that you've openly admitted that Solar's powers are rooted in fictional pseudo-science and that his whole mythos is quantum mumbo jumbo. You abuse this mumbo-jumbo and try to apply a greater meaning to the scientific terms utilized by the character. This is best highlighted in your discussion about matter manipulation and transmutation when you discredit Mordru's accomplishments because they don't have the same detailed description, even if Mordru is capable of producing the same final product without the flashy description.
Energy Manipulation
This is Solar's bread & butter -- at heart he's a high tier energy manipulator. I'm not going to argue here if Solar can manipulate the common forms of energy you've listed -- light, electricity, gamma, radio waves, etc., as most energy manipulators can do such things. It's commonplace.
You up the ante when you talk about re-igniting dying stars and creating suns -- but that's still within the realm of reason for other high tier energy manipulators (ex: Doctor Light absorbed a star) and the level of destruction you're displaying is still within Mordru & Cyborg Superman's realm.
Instead I'd like to call into question Solar's ability to deal with magic. I think you're trying to put it under the blanket statement of "energy" but I disagree completely that magic equates to traditional energy.
We see in (Doctor Solar, Man of the Atom #4 - 2010) that certain energies are foreign to Solar making them hard to feel but I think this is misleading. My reasoning for this is that the entity that Solar is fighting, Moloch, was "birthed" by the imagination of a man named Whitmore Pickerel.
Pickerel was given this power by the very same accident that created Solar -- so their energies should be fairly similar.
There's a reason I took a magical character (Mordru) and a technological/science character (Cyborg Superman) and that was to cover my bases. Swamp Thing is your magical character but I believe I've shown incapacitating him and absorbing his energy should be effortless for Mordru, which leaves only your more scientific character to go up against my fusion of magic and science.
While you might be able to contend with the science aspect (Henshaw/Lantern Rings) I firmly believe that you'll be unable to manipulate Mordru's magic -- Solar hasn't shown the ability to manipulate magic. You'll probably try and counter this by mentioning the Darque incidents. I'll be touching on those in the next section.
Draining & Absorption
I'm not convinced that you're going to be able to drain my fusion. I think it'd be problematic if I only had science type characters (Cyborg Superman for example) but I've also got Jean and Mordru -- one has psionic energies -- the other, magic.
Solar is really good at draining traditional energies but unless you can demonstrate Solar dealing with magic then I'm not convinced that he'll be able to drain my fusion.
Let's look at the examples of you draining other people:
- The first example is in (Solar, Man of the Atom #37 - 1991) in which Solar drains Ravenus. Ravenus became an energy being after coming in contact with some plasma residue left behind after Solar's battle with Eclipse. Solar draining him isn't impressive to me because Ravenus only got powers due to Solar's involvement -- the two share a similar energy source.
- The next example is in (Solar, Man of the Atom #45 - 1991) where Solar drains a man named Paulie. Again I'm not impressed by this because Paulie was originally given powers by Solar after he (Paulie) had died. Paulie explains that even with Solar's power he's not truly alive (he has brain activity; but no soul) and that his family (and pet dog) are afraid of him. Paulie ASKS Solar to kill him so Solar draining Paulie (of the energy HE gave to him) is so incredibly similar to him draining Ravenus.
Now lets talk about Necromantic energy -- you posted quite a bit about it and we see that it's an energy given off by ALL creatures upon their deaths. Darque knows how to tap into this energy and uses it to perform his feats.
Firstly you mention this:
Yet despite his mastery of souls and Necromantic energy, Solar was able to break free of his control by splitting into two and releasing Solar The Destroyer, his anger persona.
You're missing context here. Solar was under Darque's control and would have gone through with Darque's commands if it wasn't for the help of Gayle and John. They arrived on the scene before Solar could complete Darque's orders and convinced Solar to fight against Darque's influence which resulted in the split.
Solar DID NOT accomplish this by himself and I'm miffed that I have to be the one to bring attention to these things.
Next I'd like to look at what occurred during the Chaos Effect story-line. In it a portal opens up unleashing Necromantic energy unto Earth. The world is thrown into turmoil as a result but those who are receptive of Nercomantic Energy become ordained with divinity as we see in (Secrets of the Valiant Universe #2 - 1994).
You show a scan from the same series and say:
So this "particular instance" I posted actually does show several characters being drained, from everyone in Valiant including Darque, who's Necromantic energy was so powerful in this story that he was had access to the soul energy of 100 billion deaths/lives.
But later in the same issue (Secrets of the Valiant Universe #2 - 1994) Darque makes the comment that he specifically has hoarded the energy of a billion deaths which is MUCH less than the 100 billion mentioned earlier. Darque is then absorbed by Maxim St. James who traps him in the purgatory of the shadow portal.
In fact, during this story arc in (Solar, Man of the Atom #38 - 1991) Solar is directly affected by the energy and is incredibly weak as a result. He even states that the power is totally different from his own.
We learn later on in (Magnus Robot Fighter #41 - 1991) that Solar was very weakened by the chaotic energies that were unleashed from the portal. The Destroyer (that split from Solar) who is far in the future learns he has to reach Solar back in 1994 but when he goes to do the favor he's disrupted by the energy.
It's then discovered that a portion of the Destroyers energies could be sent back to Solar with the help from one of the Psi Lords (Balaam) & Magnus. Balaam further theorizes that if Solar manages to open a portal to the beginning of time that the chaos energies will leave 1994 as they'll be drawn to an era when all was truly chaos -- as long as they get the device in Solar's hands the mechanism will do the rest.
That brings us to your scans of Solar creating the time warps. We learn that Balaam's theory was correct -- the chaos energies are drawn to the beginning of time because it was an era when all was chaos. Of course the characters that gained power from the chaos energy then return to their previous power levels.
But I'm really irritated with how misleading your initial comments are about the context of this feat and how you're acting like Solar can simply create "draining portals" as if it's a common tactic.
- Solar (and his counterpart, the Destroyer) were both completely disrupted by the Chaos Energy. He needed assistance from Magnus, Balaam, and the Destroyer to stand a chance in the first place.
- It doesn't matter how much power Darque had access to -- he wasn't even present when the Chaos Energy left the universe and he even stated that the portal needed to be closed at SOME POINT.
- Solar didn't directly DRAIN anyone here -- he opened up the time warp but the Chaos Energy was DRAWN into it due to the fact that the beginning of time was an era when all was chaos.
Like -- I had to read the entire Chaos Effect arc to check and see if you were telling the truth and it turns out, like with so many other feats you've provided, that you weren't!
Unfortunately the half-truths don't end here so let's keep debunking onward to Unity 2000.
So here you do some wild scaling, lets look:
So basically, in terms of soul manipulation, not only can solar Solar just drain it, but he actually scales above Darque. And this is uber impressive because I'd argue that Darque was even written stronger in that series, Unity 2000, than Chaos Effect. Shooter was behind the wheel after all, but it's mainly because Darque was gathering Necromantic energies across the entire multiverse. So likely wayyyyy above 100 billion souls.
According to you Darque was actively gathering the Necromantic energies across the entire multiverse. You then reference the 100 billion souls from Chaos Effect -- I'd like to remind everyone that Darque himself mentions that he only hoarded 1 billion souls.
So anyways -- was Darque actually empowered by energies from across the multiverse? Not exactly.
He had devised a spell that would've allowed him to do so but the spell fails because the calculations were off. We see this in (Unity 2000 #1 - 1999) as the spell crashes. In the fallout of failure his power begins to diminish and he flees -- Solar even mentions that Jack Boniface (Shadowman) ruined his spell.
Unity 2000 never completed but the scripts can be found online. It's mentioned again in (Unity 2000 #6 - 1999) that Darque's spell failed.
I'd also like to point out that the Darque we see in this series (Unity 2000) is the Master Darque of the Acclaim Universe who is NOT the same Darque as we've seen prior in the Valiant Universe during events such as Chaos Effect. This is important because 1.) it ruins your poor scaling argument and 2.) while Solar can manipulate the energy from Acclaim Darque he was weakened by the energy seen in the Valiant Universe.
We didn't see this Darque do anything but fail a spell and get punk'd by Solar -- so you scaling him to Valiant Darque (and those Necromatic Energies) is just completely and utterly baseless.
So to recap -- Solar is great at draining things like stars -- but when it comes to draining people they're always people HE is responsible for empowering in the first place. There was also so much wrong with the Necromatic Energy talk and the scaling you used that I feel like that whole argument is trashed, the draining portals, the billions of souls, all of it was so incredibly misrepresented.
Intangibility
I'm not going to bother much with the intangibility as you yourself mention the following:
He is vulnerable to very specific types of force fields or energy blast frequencies, which are shown can still harm him.
Great -- with basic knowledge & Cyborg Superman's ability to create weaponry on the fly there's no reason why we wouldn't be able to capitalize on this weakness.
Regeneration & Immortality
The regeneration also isn't a factor I care much about -- we're both seemingly immortal but I've already proven I can rip the power from Swamp Thing and draining Solar while simultaneously assaulting him with weapons that CAN harm his intangible forms is a perfectly viable tactic.
We already saw during Chaos Effect that Chaos Energy has a devastating effect on Solar. If only I had a character that had access to a similar energy, like, oh I don't know, the strongest Lord of Chaos in the DCU.
Wait. That's Mordru. He's part of my fusion.
Invisibility
Similar to the intangibility argument I don't much care about your invisibility. The amount of energy you're filling Solar with during the prep phase should make him easier to sense.
Cosmic Awareness & Senses
I think this might be one of the areas in which you've completely misrepresented how powerful Solar actually is which is unfortunate since so much of your prep relies on having this so-called omniscience.
You use the following scan from (Doctor Solar, Man of the Atom #7 - 2010) over and over to demonstrate his so called cosmic awareness.
You even state this:
You may still retain skepticism of the scope of Phil's powers, or think all of this is just a flashy description of a catch-all energy manipulation. So for those unconvinced of Solar's absolute versatility, look no further than Solar's own explanation of the experience he had when he first discovered his powers. This is one of my all time favorite scans for him, explaining in beautiful detail the scope of his ability and cosmological awareness
I was skeptical so I did check out the series and it turns out there's a lot more to this than you've let on. For example -- when he's trying to figure out what to do with this power he explains that he doesn't have the time to do the math and that he can't take chances, he can't play dice with the universe. What he DOES choose to do is cut himself off.
In the following issue we see the aftermath of what this means. He can still sense energy and gravity. The flow of time-space. He can still feel time but he can't grasp it anymore.
So what are his capabilities with such powers & awareness? Let's look:
- In (Doctor Solar, Man of the Atom #8 - 2010) he talks about making clothes but then says "Forget that. I don't know anything about sewing. I have no idea how to construct a shirt and pants. Buttonholes? No way."
- Despite talking about "seeing everything" we see in (Doctor Solar, Man of the Atom #8 - 2010) he is unaware of who is watching/observing him via a remote sensor. He explicitly says that he doesn't know who they are.
I bring this up because you say this:
Yeah, that. There's simply no hiding from these characters, and certainly not once they're fused.
Given that I debunked Swamp Thing's ability to "see everything" and Solar, in the same series you pulled your scan from, didn't know who was watching him... I beg to differ.
I think you're greatly over-selling this awareness but lets look at your other examples.
You use THIS SCAN from (Solar, Man of the Atom: Revelations - 1997) in which "God Solar" states that time is like a book to him and that he can flip to any page he chooses as an example of his future sight.
Firstly -- I'd argue that this version of Solar which you've included in your composite is another case of a one-time amplification.
- In (Solar, Man of the Atom #60 - 1996) we find Solar "ascending" in a sense to his God-like state. He surrenders himself to a higher state of being and bonds with a dying star in an attempt to grant renewed life to the solar system.
- The story that follows this is (Solar, Man of the Atom V2 - 1997) which is a one-issue story. In it the God Solar visits Frank Seleski (one of the Seleski twins) and explains that the universe in that story bifurcated from another. We'll see this God Solar again in the following story.
- This brings us to (Solar, Man of the Atom: Revelations - 1997) which is where we find your God Solar making his statements about time. He seemingly sheds this power at the end of the story, saying "now, it's time for the man of the atom.. to split."
- Now if I'm following Solar's time-line correctly (and understanding all of his versions) we see this Solar one more time in (Gold Key Alliance #5 - 2017) where he retells the story from (Solar, Man of the Atom #60 - 1996) which I discussed earlier. If that's the case, well then all the different Solar's are told to will themselves out of existence, to remove themselves from time.
Now, if this argument for God Solar being a one-time amp doesn't stick for whatever reason I'd like to look further into Solar's true capabilities in this "God" form.
Solar explains that he tried to go back in time and re-arrange a world where he didn't fail to save Gayle (his love) so that she'd be alive. We learn that he failed at this -- he created a world where instead he was split into the Seleski twins, Frank and Helena.
In your scan Solar talks about flipping to the end of the book; the world is going to come to an end in two years. Later in that SAME ISSUE he says that he can't be sure of anything that'll happen in two years, that he ISN'T God.
An admission from the man himself seems like more than enough proof that your future sight isn't the end/all be/all. It's flawed.
To further poke holes in the capabilities of your omniscience I'd like to look at something stated in (Gold Key Alliance #5 - 2017) by Spektor. He explains that Solar's power began to course out of him like an unchecked flood. That he became omniscient but being all-knowing and being all-understanding are two different things, his mind frayed."
Solar, as a God, is a complete failure. He can't control that degree of power and is constantly making mistakes. He's accidentally creating universes, his mind simply unravels.
In short I am completely unconvinced that even if your composite Solar is allowed to have this degree of power that he'd be able to control it well enough to view our fight in it's entirety and understand how to effectively counter everything my build has to offer.
It's a pipe dream. It's hyperbolic hog-wash.
Time Manipulation
I'm not going to argue that Solar can't move through time but I also don't see how beneficial it'll be in the grand scheme of things.
For one Mordru is fully capable of moving through time & space as well. This was showcased in (Justice League of Ameirca #147 - 1960) when Mordru sent astral projections of his hands back 1000 years in the past to defeat & capture both the JLA & JSA. This is Pre-Crisis but it still applies since Mordru was unaffected by the events of COIE.
It's also worth mentioning that this is a weakened Mordru. He spoke to Dr. Fate and explained that he was once the Master of an ENTIRE PLANET of sorcerers, the very least of whom was Fate's equal. It took an uprising of the total population of Zerox (the sorcerer planet) to defeat Mordru and even then they were unable to destroy him, they just reduced his capabilities by 1/2.
So doing the following:
During his battle with his other self he was able to fight all across time, stepping in and out of time, manipulating the tachyon field to move through time, affect different points in time, etc. you get it. The whole shebang.
Is something my fusion is equally capable of.
Of course it's also entirely possible to simply put an end to the time-manipulation shenanigans by sealing the time-travel lanes so that nobody can enter or leave the current time period.
In your plan you state that you're going to:
step outside of the timestream before the match starts
So if I seal the time-travel lanes (knowing your character has these capabilities due to basic/wiki knowledge) then you're unable to get back into the fight, no?
I didn't remove you from the field, you did it yourself by being outside of the time-stream. I just prevented you from coming back (or utilizing other time-based attacks) which feels like a potential victory for my fusion.
Of course, I digress. I think trying to use time manipulation against Mordru is futile. He's more than equipped to deal with it and it's not like you can travel back to Mordru's beginning or his end because like Hourman 1-Million found out, he doesn't have either.
Soul Manipulation
I already went into great depth about Solar's "soul manipulation" during the Draining section. It's been entirely misrepresented by you and is truly nonexistent based on what you've provided thus far.
Atomic Matter Manipulation & Transmutation
Alright -- it's time to dive into this part of your argument. You've put a lot of emphasis on the verbiage used by Solar to try and prove that his matter manipulation and transmutation is somehow LEAGUES above anyone else.
Mordru has showings of manipulating atoms -- we see him do this in (Superboy #245 - 1949) and atoms are the smallest building block of matter, so I won't be responding to any of the molecular manipulation since Mordru can easily replicate it.
Now you try and take it further and put a lot of emphasis on the quantum/planck levels. You reference a scan in which he talks about manipulating wave functions and how he's now equipped with GOD'S TOOLBOX but what does Solar do with that AWESOME power?
He makes a brick and a fish. Sure, Solar got more scientific in the description of his manipulation but when he puts it in to practice he didn't demonstrate anything that Mordru couldn't do. I literally showed him transmuting several living beings into inanimate objects.
You take it a step further when he talks about viewing the beginning of time at the quantum level. Now this is great for his perception but he doesn't manipulate anything....? So why does this matter? It's a lot of talk but he doesn't DO anything with it.
Again when you go on to talk about Solar being able to do "anything he wants" you just link to the scan of him making a fish and a brick.
The one scan where Solar DOES something sub-atomic is when he shrinks himself. Now at this point it's worth mentioning that there was a time where Green Lantern (Hal) and the Atom did something incredibly similar in (Legends of the DC Universe #29 - 1998) and the language used is shockingly close, shrinking down past molecules, atoms, electrons, quarks!
So sure -- Jim Shooter may get extra points for talking about Wave Functions but when it comes to the character actually applying those abilities you haven't shown anything that my team couldn't emulate with the resources at our disposal.
Size Manipulation
The size manipulation argument is stupid. Not stupid OP like you've claiming it to be, just stupid.
I already explained that Swamp Thing hasn't shrunk anyone but himself -- that scan of him with Captain Atom has no shrinking whatsoever.
Perhaps you'll try an argue that Solar will shrink me since he also shrunk himself and has WAVE FUNCTIONS on his side.
But let's entertain the possibility of you somehow shrinking me -- what then?
Well the first thing is that Mordru has never been defeated by being shrunk -- he's displayed no weakness towards molecular manipulation so I see no reason why he wouldn't be able to enlarge himself back to his regular size.
Though say the voters believe that despite never being shown vulnerable to shrinking that Mordru would somehow be incapacitated, what then?
Well thankfully we've seen Green Lantern WILL himself from that sub-atomic size in the same issue I referenced earlier (Legends of the DC Universe #29 - 1998). Atom even explains that growing is easier than shrinking.
So trying to manipulate my size with non-existent feats of your characters shrinking people is a stupid argument.
Cloning & Summons
You talk about Solar splitting into six different components but doing that seems to weaken him. You state:
We know Solar can already split into at least six.
Which he does -- but if we examine the issue (Doctor Solar, Man of the Atom #12 - 1962) when he did that and one of his six parts was missing he became powerless.
It doesn't seem smart to utilize that splitting technique as it would have an effect on your power. You might be using Swamp Thing's splitting as a fall-back but when he loses control of The Green (thanks to Mordru) then the whole cloning & summoning argument becomes moot.
Teleportation & Dimensional Travel
You mention this isn't important in the grand scheme of things and even if it was my fusion is also capable of teleportation.
The Fight Re-examined
Both of your characters are easier to defeat than you've let on -- Swamp Thing can be drained by magical means (as we saw with Sargon) and Solar is severely weakened by the energy in the Chaos Effect arc.
With Mordru's major weaknesses covered by the other components of my fusion I can't see how you hope to actually win this fight -- Swamp Thing is the less powerful magic user and Solar is vulnerable to Chaos Energy which DC's Lord of Chaos should be able to capitalize on.
The portal draining you seek to utilize requires so much context that I don't even see it as a valid argument anymore -- Solar needed help from so many others to accomplish that end-goal and the reason the energy went into the arc was because it was drawn to the chaos of the era, the beginning of time.
Flash-freezing is a weird argument to make when I've shown that Mordru is capable of fighting in astral form (as he beat the JLA & JSA in pre-crisis) and that was when he was weakened and at half power. My team can also utilize force fields of several varieties (telekinetic, magical, lantern rings) or simply go intangible which is being done during prep.
The size manipulation argument is bogus as your characters haven't been shown to utilize their powers to shrink other people and none of my characters have shown a weakness to such an attack. Even if you DID shrink me it's been shown that my fusion would be capable of growing back to normal size.
Your cosmic awareness and future sight argument is also deeply flawed and since you have no knowledge of my fusion (no basic knowledge perks) you can't hope to capitalize on any weaknesses, you don't know my weaknesses -- besides, I covered my bases with all the components of the fusion.
At the end of the day draining you is such a quick victory -- Solar is weak to Mordru's magical energy and Swamp Thing is inferior to Mordru -- he trumps both of them.
You presented your characters well beyond their consistent levels of power and I think that's your downfall. Like I mentioned earlier your argument falls about when put under the slightest bit of scrutiny and I believe I've done a fine job of pointing out all your flaws.
Good luck in your counter-arguments. You'll need it.
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