thegentlemanrogue's forum posts

#1 Edited by thegentlemanrogue (722 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought Daken's death was very apropos. This larger than life character with Machiavellian aspirations of power, held down and snuffed out in a inch deep puddle of dirty water like he was nothing. As great as he thought himself to be, he was taken out like a piece of gutter trash, and to add insult to injury we find out that for all his cunning and manipulation, he was nothing but a pawn being adeptly maneuvered behind the scene into this very outcome. It's mundane, but that's what makes it poetic.

Brilliant issue.

Also on the issue of Sabretooth, if you remember back to the time of Identity Disc, Fury fully believed that Creed was the one pulling everyone's strings and manipulating the outcome. We of course know that isn't true, but Fury and Shield believed it, and it wasn't a hard sell. Wolverine has said in the past that Sabretooth plays the fool because it suits his needs and allows him to fly under the radar, in fact it's arguably that very character trait that allowed him to go over Daken like this in the first place, because very few people know Creed is capable of pulling it off. That's one of the things that makes him dangerous.

#2 Edited by thegentlemanrogue (722 posts) - - Show Bio

A lot of people seem to think that Wolverine's stance doesn't make any sense, but I don't think that is the case at all. Honestly, and this might sound weird to someone who only has a passing familiarity with Wolverine, but Logan's stance in Schism is far more "in character" then Wolverine leading or even joining X-Force. Historically Wolverine wouldn't have tolerated the existence of that team, or at least not with the roster that made it up. Wolverine's views on killing and the X-Men has always been that it may be necessary but if it needs to be done, he's going to be the one to do it, no one else. How many times has Wolverine step in and stopped one of his friends and teammates from killing someone? Countless times, and he was even prepared to kill Rachel to stop her from killing Selene. Wolverine is there to get his hands dirty and prevent to other X-Men from making the choices he has had to make and fallowing in his foot steps. I feel like Wolverine's views on killing are pretty well defined and his stance in Schism not arbitrary in the slightest, it is very much in line how the character has been portrayed practically since his inception.

#3 Posted by thegentlemanrogue (722 posts) - - Show Bio
@foolishchaos said:

@thegentlemanrogue said:

@NXH said:
The red head spider-woman was hot in a geekish sort of way.
I'm pretty sure she is a porn star.

Do you... do you have a name?

Misti Dawn.
#4 Posted by thegentlemanrogue (722 posts) - - Show Bio
@NXH said:
The red head spider-woman was hot in a geekish sort of way.
I'm pretty sure she is a porn star.
#5 Posted by thegentlemanrogue (722 posts) - - Show Bio

To me Cyclops' character development has always come off natural in the context of the storyline of the last couple decades. He is the leader of a critically endangered species on the brink of destruction, with a responsibility to all remaining mutants, and not just the ones who volunteer to put their lives on the line. Cyclops no longer has the luxury of being idealistic, he needs to be pragmatic. The situation the X-Men faced called for a certain type of leadership, he needed to step up or move aside, and he choose to step up. Scott isn't a peace time leader or a war time leader, he is a leader. Period. He made the chooses that had to be made.

The last decade or so of character development have made Cyclops and interesting character with interesting motivations. Before M Day Scott wasn't a character. He was a bland cardboard cut out with no personality. If someone liked his "character" it was because he was such a nothing character that a reader could impose there own personality on him. That's no longer the case.

#6 Posted by thegentlemanrogue (722 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cosmic_Falcon said:

You completely twisted everything I've said, I never said that Wolverine's past was convoluted or that his character was a plot device, I said that his past was a plot device and this his character was convoluted.  Both which are absolutely true.  Wolverine's blank past is the perfect setup for writers to put in whatever the hell they feel like putting in, they could write a story about Wolverine going to the moon in the 50's, fighting aliens, blowing up the death star, etc etc and fit it perfectly into continuity if they wanted to.  That's a plot device.  Wolverine's character itself is convoluted because he literally stretches out in to 300 other concepts and characteristics and those too would fit into continuity.  Batman might be walking deus ex machinma but that has little to do with his character or personality and more to do with plot and how the character is represented to readers.  You're post here has more to do with complaining about plot then the character itself. 

Right, and how many of these concepts change his core personality? How many of these change the way the character is portrayed? In comics, Bruce Wayne and Batman are typically portrayed as 2 different characters.  You said it yourself earlier that there is no alter ego for Wolverine, that Wolverine and Logan are the same person, yet he can be a samurai with a code of honor one minute, then a brawler who'll fight dirty the next, a savage who fights his inner nature, or a rebel who defies authority.  All of these gimmicks change Wolverine's character. Batman being a ninja or an engineer doesn't change his core personality, and being a billionaire is a characteristic of Bruce Wayne, who is commonly seen as a different character from Batman all together.   Wolverine is more convoluted then most characters out there.  It wouldn't even be so bad if they could actually blend these gimmicks together properly but they rarely ever do so, because it's nearly impossible to put together that many characteristics and make it work.  I find it hysterical how Wolverine tries to follow the samurai code of honor, but has no problem attacking people from behind, one of the biggest taboos among samurais. 

His viewpoints on the justice system, his relationships, similar to Wolverine he also fights his urges to want to kill, his philosophy on killing, these make him a more complex character then Wolverine is without the need to expand his character into a billion different archtypes.  These are more valid reasons then the abundance of conflicting ideologies, or the diversity of the character, both which were 2 of the reasons you brought up to justify Wolverine's complexity a few pages ago.  You also brought up Wolverine having a diverse history, which goes to the original point that his blank background is one giant plot device for writers benefits.  Batman has been a central character in his universe for 60 years now, he has his fair share of flaws considering his status of importance and popularity in DCU.  If Wolverine had stuck to a core concept without expanding into so many other archtypes, under his circumstances he would of been a more engaging, deeper character.  Unless you're a huge fan of the 90's archtype that was so popular, the anti hero, it's hard to give 2 shits about Wolverine as a character.  There isn't a lot Batman can do when it comes to fixing the criminal justice system.  It's not like he can make a list of new rules and regulations, march into the GPD and demand everyone does what he tells them to do.  It just doesn't work like that.  The best thing he can do is make criminals face justice, which is what Batman is about.  Is it a flaw? Sure, but it's no worse then Wolverine being a convoluted mess of a character who can be anything because his plot device past allows it. 

Wolverine's not a convoluted character, he is a three dimensional and intricate character, but as you are a fan of one dimensional cardboard cutouts like Batman I can understand how you might confuse the two. Sure, there are aspects of Wolverine that are convoluted - like his past for example - but his character isn't convoluted... as a matter of fact saying that a character is convoluted doesn't really make any sense. The word convoluted connotes a needless level of complexity, and a person (or character) can't be needlessly complex, because human psychology is by it's very nature infinitely complex. Wolverine's past isn't a plot device, a time machine, or a utility belt that just happens to contain the right tool for every job, is a plot device. A character's past is merely part of their mythos. Wolverine was born in the 1800's, he has a long and storied past, not sure what these "300 other concepts and characteristics" you are talking about are though. He has more or less been the same character ever since the first time we saw him after he came out of the forest after Rose died. He's had different professions, but outside menial labor (minor or forester) they've all fallen pretty much in the same hat as soldier and spy, not exactly a lot of contradiction there. Batman is a walking dues ex machina, and it very much has to do with is character and personality. He is the best at everything and he always has a plan for any and every situation that will tip the scales in his favour. That's Batman. That's his character. If I said he is paranoid that would be his complete biography. That's not an interesting character.

It's become apparent from reading this post you have very little understanding of Wolverine's character on even the most basic level. I can't hardly blame you though, after all he is a complex character and which we've deduced isn't something you are all that familiar with. I'll do my best to help you form an understanding of the character. You don't understand how Wolverine can try to fallow the tenets of Bushido, and yet attack people from behind? Well then you haven failed to grasp what is arguably to core theme of the character, failure. As a fan of Batman, a character who succeeds with little effort in every aspect of everything he has ever attempt, I'm sure that must seem odd to you. Wolverine is a failure, he isn't a samurai, he is a failed samurai, he has failed on some level in virtually everything he has ever attempted. It's essential to character. He aspires to be an honorable man, and intellectually he believes in the philosophy of the Samurai, but he is unable to hold firm and fallow them, even though he wants to. It's part of the tragic nature of the character, he can't be the man he wants to be no mater how hard he tries. Everyday he fails to live up to the being the person he wants to be, but every day he tries. The sad truth of the character is that his instincts are more powerful than his conditioning. It's his hamartia, his tragic flaw. You are criticizing one of the very reasons he is a more complex and layered character than Batman. Character flaws, make flawed characters, and flawed characters are human characters.

Even if Wolverine was an archetypal anti-hero (which he isn't, he falls much closer in line with the archetype of the tragic hero), the notion that this somehow demeans his character is fallacious. DC would have you believe that Batman is an anti-hero (whether he is or isn't is a mater of debate, but at the very least he pretends to be). Does that diminish his character? I don't think so. In fact, the reality is that anti-heroes are generally more complex and interesting that standard run of the mill super heroes for the same reason that villains are, they are much more flawed. Wolvernie is more complex and layer than Batman for the same reasons the Joker is more interesting than Batman. They are more flawed and complex. Batman has no problem with vigilante justice, but he draws an arbitrary line in the sand about how criminals are processed and contained? It doesn't make any sense for the character. This is a guy that is so parodied he created a spy satellite to spy on his closest friends and every government agency in the world, on the off chance one of them might betray him. I'm expect to believe that after Joker escaped from jail the second time he wouldn't have taken measures to insure it never happened again? Batman's actions don't suit his motivations, they undersell the character he is supposed to be. Private Prisons. Bruce Wayne is a billionaire. The idea that Batman hasn't created a state of the art prison system to insure that his rogues are locked up for good, demeans the character. Does Batman think crime fighting is a game? Is he a thrill seeking adrenaline junky who just wants to have an open door prison system so that he has criminals to fight and pass his time? No. His character has no internal logic, his actions demean his motivations. Now obviously this doesn't happen because DC doesn't want to create new villains every issue for Batman to effortlessly beat up an lock away for good, but the behind the scenes reasoning doesn't change the fact that what actually happens in comics makes Batman seem like a joke.
#7 Posted by thegentlemanrogue (722 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cosmic_Falcon said:

This video right here is pretty accurate as well, explaining why Wolverine is marketable to younger readers.  Kids eat this shit up, ever since the 90's the idea of cool was someone who cusses, kills, and defies authority hence why Lobo, Punisher and Wolverine all peaked during that decade in popularity.   None of these characters have exceptionally deep personalities, but at least with Lobo and Castle, they typically have one gimmick or concept.  But that's mostly because DC and Marvel didn't plan on relying on those 2 as cash cows like they did with Wolverine.  When you actually look back at the 90's, Wolverine seems more generic then anything else. 

  

Since apparently you didn't pick up on it, who do you think the "that guy," on Superman's team is? Hint: It's Batman.

How many cartoon shows and action figure lines has Wolverine had? Now how many has Batman had. Now remind me, who did you think is being market towards children? It's pretty obvious which character is market out the ass towards children. It's not a great mystery, you don't need to be Batman to solve it.
#8 Edited by thegentlemanrogue (722 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cosmic_Falcon said:

The only thing here that's even close to fact so far is that Wolverine is a more convoluted and marketable character then Batman is.  His entire background is a giant plot device for the writers benefits, he's a character composed of numerous gimmicks and concepts to market him to whatever is cool and whatever the bandwaggon is at the time.  So far there is very little about Wolverine's character or personality that's deep or complex.  Batman = Complex in the sense that he has a deep character without the use of 100 different gimmicks and concepts to add diversity to his character.  One complex personalityWolverine = Convoluted in the sense that his fans confuse flexibility and marketability to complexity.  Several generic and marketable personalities, concepts. Oh, and it's someone decided to use a Hyde Jekyll comparison, I guess Wolverine is also a victim of recycled gimmicks, since this is the basis of one of Marvel's more popular character who I shouldn't have to name.  Now those are facts. 

Man, you should be embarrassed for some of the accusations you have leveled here against Wolverine, while singing the praises of Batman in the same post. Complaining about Wolverine being convoluted, while Grant Morrision is still writing Batman? That's rich. RIP, Return of Bruce Wayne... this ringing any bells? Morrision is reintegrating Pre-crisis Batman into continuity, and you think Wolverine's past is convoluted? Then the accusation that Wolverine is a "giant plot device for the writer's benefit"? Have you even heard of Batman? He is a walking dues ex machina device... that's his whole deal! This is essentially the entirety of his character. What did you say next? Wolverine is composed of "numerous gimmicks and concepts to market him to whatever is cool"? Again... do you know anything about Batman? Super ninja, billionaire, engineer, ect ect ect ect. He is like a character who was dreamed up during snack time in a pre-school. Everything you've seen applies more to Batman than it does Wolverine...

Batman is not complex, there is nothing complex about him. His parents died, he fights crime to prevent similar tragedies. Simple. You are confusing "complex" with being a one dimensional Gary Stu who happens to be amazing at everything he attempts and never loses. Not only is he not a complex character, his motivations don't even an fallow an internal logic that makes any sense. "I feel like the criminal justice system is broke and that in order to be effective I need to operate outside the system and all the red tape! And when I catch a criminal, I think I'll turn them over to the same inept system I didn't trust to catch them! I guess I'll ignore that GPD is even worse at keeping criminals in prison then they are at arresting them, or else my character wouldn't make any sense!" You might want to rethink that buddy, your a super genius, ninja with masters degree in criminology (and seemingly every science) after all.

The Jekyll/Hyde comparison isn't a "recycled gimmick," it is human psychology. The ID (the berserker) vs the Superego (Wolverine), instinct vs Reason and restraint.
#9 Edited by thegentlemanrogue (722 posts) - - Show Bio
@AveragePerson said:

How fast can he run is it 25-30 mph which is around peak human or  is he faster. How fast can he punch or swipe his claws is it peak human around 40-45 mph or faster.

He has been shown keeping pace (and some cases out pacing) gray wolves, deer, mustang and boar on panel,  so we are looking at a run speed around 35-40 mph minimum. I would say he an likely hit a 60mph sprint like Captain America, but that is speculation.

His combat speed is documented on panel. It takes Wolverine .038 seconds to chamber and throw a punch. There is another instance where he simultaneously punches a group of men who are completely surrounding him, stopping, turning, cambering and throwing a punch at his target before moving on to the next man, and as I said it all happened simultaneously as though attacked them at the same time.
#10 Edited by thegentlemanrogue (722 posts) - - Show Bio

Some things are just true and don't require an opinion, the fact that Wolverine is a more complex and layered character than Batman is one of them. I welcome someone to actually attempt to argue the point.