TheFallenOne

@lord_oraculous016 said:

@TheFallenOne said:

The bolded thing happened because Strange wasn't concetrated enough and hurt (at least that's explanation i enocuntered since i've never seen the scan). Again it was fraction of power and Agamotto overcame that spell. Plus it could easily be PIS since Dormammu alone is = Agamotto. Anyway that all doens't matter since

Vishanti were unbale to grant him a slightest whisper not to mention power him up. So this feat is > Agamotto's feat. Also how the hell can Oshtur grant someone Cyttorak's powers ?

Not to mention that Vishanti already stated that they don't want to deal with Cyttorak or anything which belongs to him.

it is possible that Dr. Strange was indeed not concentrated.. and him not being able to call forth the aid of the Vishanti in Cyttorak's domain is not that great of a mystery.. if Cyttorak was able to incapacitate Dr. Strange to call forth the Vishanti would be a better feat, but as we all know, he cannot..

and yes, Oshtur did grant Dr. strange the Crimson Bands.. see Doctor Strange II #9..

they said that they want to deal with him, but they did not expressed inferiority.. big differences.. same goes on how the Vishanti expressed no desire to deal with Shuma-Gorath and we all know they possess at-least equal power..

So Oshtur gave him item created by Cyttorak which is totaly =/= than granting him a power of Cyttorak. And with all respect to you (since i really respect you) the rest of your post is just you playing semantics - which goes in fan-fiction region. Facts are different.

@CapitolPunishment said:

@TheFallenOne: That argument had been made and those scans posted at least a dozen times in this thread alone and imo refuted every time. If you wish to push your point with those scans I suggest you address the people who refuted those points already by adding something new to the discussion that had not already been discussed in great detail. Otherwise, with all due respect, you are just repeating the same posts that have already been posted and discussed without adding anything new to the thread.

They have been "refuted" - read ingnored by Prince CortSether(shuma gorath fanboy, who is very likely the same person as Cort and Shuma Gorath users, so talking about his credibility) who dismisses them because Shuma hasn't displayed similar feats. Not to mention that he hasn't give a slightest good reason why would those feats be dismissed, he was simply ignoring them. And it's better to tell your own opinion than ro refere to opinion of CorthSether.

@Buckshot said:

You don't get it. Regardless of how you try to spin it, Hermes did not display any speed when Ares caught him. Hermes may HAVE a ton of speed, but if he's not USING it when Ares grabs him, it's not a speed feat for Ares. And even if it were, it wouldn't stand out against the numerous fights in which he's fought at a normal pace. Ares throwing his axe means absolutely nothing for someone who knew he was going to throw the axe from the second the fight started and could dodge it in a wheelchair. I don't think Midnighter needs a Door (and I didn't bring one up so I don't know why you are) but Ares couldn't stop Midnighter from using one. You didn't prove Daken's pheromones would work in that thread either and had no counterpoints for my reasoning as to why they wouldn't work. Midnighter doesn't need a Door to beat Wolverine, especially with Daken present. Midnighter could use Daken's claw to kill everyone in this fight, and Midnighter is fast and strong enough to get it from him. I had overlooked Romulus' telepathy because I honestly don't recall it. Was that an ability he used effectively in combat at any point? And did he use it on people other than Wolverine (which he'd had under his thumbs for decades)? I'd need to see some sort of display of that. Until then though, Midnighter does have some mental defenses. The Engineer gave everyone on the Authority some tech for that and they all later got further upgrades. He's also shown willpower based defenses. Don't know their level of power, but I don't know Romulus' either. Psychic blasts might be effective, but control wouldn't and I doubt Romulus has the telepathic skill (though I'll be waiting for the scans) to do what Jackson King did to Midnighter.

His implants are easily shut down

Note that Jackson wasn't even trying to mindrape him he only did what he said. Shut down his computer. And on the middle panel we clearly see that Midnighter "felt the attack". Romulus won't be so generous to Midnighter. Bolded part is simly your fanfiction. Also Midnighter needs Door if he wants to score against Logan. Without that it's stealmate, and very possible even in Logan's favor because of the senses.

And Daken can effect Midnighter. His battle cimputer can't overcome that simply because pheromones aren't toxins. they trigger social behavior and are sometimes classified as ecto-hormones. Midnighter doesn'e have a single feat whch would indicate that he could prevent Daken from manipulating him. Also Romulus telepathy limit is unknown. He is powerful enough to be able to delete many parts of memory (deleted many part sof Logans life), can cost issuion in minds of others, etc... He is powerful enough for Charles considering him a threat and having to help his team in order to overcome Romulus assaults. The defense Enginner gave is to what Midnighter refers as "tamper proof" and it's precticly defense against direct aproach to implants, not telepathic like you claim.

On the other hand you're the one who hasn't proven his point . SInce all the things you posted is simply a fan fiction. Using Daken's claw ? Like if everybody is going to stand and alw the to be stabbed, not to mention that everybody here have impressive helaing factor (even Ares) and everybody excluding Ares can even heal brain injuries. Your continuation on this only proves your bias, since Midnighter doesn't stand a chance against team and yet you're over-rating him and presenting as he has. This is bad for someone who is considered as valid debater as you Buckshot.

@lord_oraculous016 said:

@TheFallenOne said:

@lord_oraculous016: Scans you posted are out of order, also Oshtur was stated also to be the greates of the elder gods. You didn't post the scan on which Vishanti claim him and Cyttorak appears and yells: " NO I LAY CLAIM TO THE MORTAL" . I'll look for that scna and post it. Anyway it's obvious that you downgrade Cyttorak too much. Demogorge to high for Cyttorak well that's compelty ridicuolus statement. since Demogorge made Chthon fly for his life than Demogorge is > Cyttorak. Well facts are different. Cyttorak is > both Chthon and Demogorge combined.

again, it was never said that Oshtur is the greatest of the Elder Gods.. none.. unlike the fact that i just posted.. Oshtur is the most powerful of the Vishanti, now that is a fact, but Oshtur claiming to be the greatest is simply not not since there are no proof nor feats to back up that claim.. in-fact none of the Elder Gods was described greater than the other except Chthon..

as for the scan, you mean this..

him saying so still doesn't change much for for all his posturing, he made to progress to proved his so-called superiority.. that plus the other two facts posted above than even Oshtur alone can grant someone Cyttorak's powers and that even the combined powers of Dormammu, Cytorrak, Watoomb, Raggadorr, Denak, the Seraphim, the Faltine, Ikonn and Valtorr to fuel the spell was unable to banish Agamotto..

the reason why Chthon and Set fled the Demogorge was simply because they were over powered.. the Demogorge absorbs the power of everything it devours.. Chthon and Set was simply fighting the entire race of Elder Gods.. and that is not always the case since when set return to Earth, he fought the Demogorge to a stalemate for millions of years despite the fact that the Demogorge was feeding from his energies.. also, Chthon doesn't fear the Demogorge anymore.. that is a fact that any comic-book reader knows.. for Chthon has learned from his mistakes.. and the Demogorge is far from his concerns

^_^

The bolded thing happened because Strange wasn't concetrated enough and hurt (at least that's explanation i enocuntered since i've never seen the scan). Again it was fraction of power and Agamotto overcame that spell. Plus it could easily be PIS since Dormammu alone is = Agamotto. Anyway that all doens't matter since

Vishanti were unbale to grant him a slightest whisper not to mention power him up. So this feat is > Agamotto's feat. Also how the hell can Oshtur grant someone Cyttorak's powers ?

Not to mention that Vishanti already stated that they don't want to deal with Cyttorak or anything which belongs to him.

@lord_oraculous016: Scans you posted are out of order, also Oshtur was stated also to be the greates of the elder gods. You didn't post the scan on which Vishanti claim him and Cyttorak appears and yells: " NO I LAY CLAIM TO THE MORTAL" . I'll look for that scna and post it. Anyway it's obvious that you downgrade Cyttorak too much. Demogorge to high for Cyttorak well that's compelty ridicuolus statement. since Demogorge made Chthon fly for his life than Demogorge is > Cyttorak. Well facts are different. Cyttorak is > both Chthon and Demogorge combined.

@Buckshot: I also fogot to adress Romulus. Midnighter will lose against him alone. Romulous has telepathic abilities and Midnighter has been shown as very weak against telepahty. Even low telepahty is enough to shut down his battle computer (greatv lose for him and no millions of scenarios calculation) and make him totlay dizzy.

@TheMightyAvenger said:

@TheFallenOne: Look what you have to understand is that Ion had the sum of power of all of the Guardians of the Universe, his power was believed to be unlimited, he was near-omniscient and omnipresent and had the power to erase certain periods of time, without affecting the rest, he stated he could have erased the event in which Hal Jordan had become Paraalx if he wanted, the main reason why he has so few feats is because he had few appearances.

Those are hyperboles, indications(recreatin of events when chating with Spectre) and fan based opinion(unlimited power). Cyttorak empowered Juggernuat when Cain was in Ultraverse - out of Marvel multiverse and part of Marvel megaverse. So Cyttorak can effec things on megaversal level which is above anything HOG IOn was hinted to be able to do. Feats, statements, powerscailing all go in Cyttorak's favor. And unlike Ion's power Cyttorak's power was stated to be unlimited numerous times. So Cyttorak is >>> Ion and you can't prove otherwise since Cyttorak has way better feats and statements on his side.

@Buckshot said:

I don't know Grievous' stats, but given that Obi-Wan could engage him I don't think he's beyond Midnighter's physical abilities. I don't see avoiding damage as much of an issue either since Midnighter has range (you guys know he carries shuriken, explosive darts, large bombs and even pocket nukes right?) and even up close he can avoid hits effortlessly (after he came back from a mission to space he demonstrated that he could easily destroy two androids made to beat him with a single touch without ever being in danger of getting tagged). The hard part might be doing damage to the armor, but Midnighter has wrecked the jaw of a woman who was completely bulletproof before she got her powers amped over a hundred times, and has punched through superhumans that were unphased by crashing into the earth at hundreds of miles per hour. If his strength is insufficient though, his bombs can probably do damage since the lightsabers can't stop waves of heat and concussive force and there are unguarded portions of Grievous.

In the Expanded universe they are way above their movie counter parts. Jedi are massivly hypersonic and in soem casses even relativistic in speed. No street lever stands a chance against force user from expanded universe.

@Buckshot said:

This gauntlet is out of order. Wolverine or an amoral Spider-Man would be the hardest for Midnighter to beat, they should be at the end. Since you're allowing Doors though it doesn't matter. Midnighter has used Doors for BFR before, clearest example was in his solo series when he went back to his "home town". BFRd a monster into space. He has pushed people through Doors but it's not necessary. A Door can be opened parallel to the ground, they don't have to be opened vertically. Opened that way, a person would fall right into one. Below is an example of spot-teleportation where targets are picked and no one needs to go through anything, they're just teleported where they are.

Ok Door is disabled than.

@Buckshot said:

@TheFallenOne: Hermes could have dodged the nailgun too (unless you think nails move faster than hermes) but it hit him. Hermes' speed was downplayed/overlooked so Ares could hit him.

Simple facts here, lets see if you can follow: When Hermes was using his speed, Ares could not touch him. When Hermes was not using his speed, Ares was able to shoot him in the foot and catch him as he fell.

What makes more sense, that Ares (and a nailgun) is faster than Hermes or that Hermes wasn't using his speed when Ares caught him?

You haven't shown why Midnighter can't defeat anyone in this fight and you haven't shown why the pheromones would prevent Midnighter from taking down Daken.

First of all when Ares atempted to catch him slap him for the first time he wasn't aware that kid was Hermes. And next thing is that after that they were talking, so Hermes was suprised.

Ares will simply throw his axe and Midnighter is dead. Since he hasn't shown so far that he can endure something as powerful as Areses axe or that he can survive his skull being ripped in two. So even with Door he won't be able to defeat Ares, not to mention that Ares totaly outlclasses him

.For pheromones see thread Midnighter vs Daken since i'm not in the od to repeat myself.

Without Door he can't do anything to Wolverine and Wolverine senses would tell him that somehting is worng so he owuld be prepared for Door. But with Door(bFR) alowed i would still give it to Midnighter 6/10. Against Wolverine is rather stealmate since Midnighter is faster than Wolvie in my opinion.

against X-23 is basilcy the same as Wolverine, although even without Door i say Midnighter can best her. Since he is stronger and faster than her.

Anyway any 2 combatants combined are more than enough to defeat Midnighter and in case of Ares is overkill.

And for your fanfiction outcome of the battel there is nothing to confimr it. By the way you over-rated Midnighter in this thread to much. Like of team is going to just stand and wait for Midnighter to do the things you mentioned. Also this thread is totaly missmatch and needs to be lock. So put your bias at side mod and lock this. Since it violating the rules which say "no missmatches''.