TheAtheist888

@Shadow Stalker said:

@TheAtheist888: Hi, thanks for following my posts. You asked me what my position is but didn't say in what so I'll respond to what I assume you mean. My position is, I believe the God described in the Bible is the creator of everything and that he created humans to have fellowship with them. I believe mankind chose to disobey (i.e. sin) and that separated us from God. However, because God loved us so much, he provided a way for us to atone for our sins through the sacrifice of Jesus. He very much wants us to walk with him day by day and to love others just as He loves others. I believe God told us to go and share the good news about Jesus' sacrifice for our sins with the world. Which brings me to today. That's what I believe and why (and only why) I post here. To share the love and forgiveness God has for his creation (i.e. us).

I'll also go ahead and say what I'm not going to do. I don't believe debating the mysteries of the Bible. I don't chastise or judge others for their beliefs (or lack of belief). I don't tell people they are "going to hell". I don't call anyone else's religion "crap". None of that shows love to others so why waste my time and why put someone else down?

You are most welcome. By asking your position, I've meant that a portion of the world's populace(a large one at that, I confess) believes in the bible. But a larger sum does not. By claiming that jesus is the sole savior of the world, you are negating most of the other religions in the world. For example, Buddhism does not conform to your beliefs. Are you saying that it is wrong? Hinduism is the third most popular religion in the world and it's mostly a polytheistic religion although it has monotheistic and even atheistic branches and it contradicts Christianity in many grounds. Do you consider lord krishna to be the final destination of your soul after the tiresome circle of birth and death? If you do not, are you saying that 1 billion people are wrong for following krishna and not jesus?

@Shadow Stalker said:

@King Saturn: 1. Truthfully, I don't enjoy the back and forth because it takes time and, selfishly, I'd rather be doing something else. However, God told us to share the Gospel with the world so as long as posting here is sharing the Gospel, that's what I'll do. However, when it turns into debates and apologetics, I need to bow out because I don't really think those are helpful in bringing people to know Jesus.

2. I'm with you all the way until the last line. How could one who is guilty take the punishment for another who is guilty? Only an innocent could take the place. If God were choosing some other person to take the punishment, that would be unjust. However, he offers Himself through his Son, the only innocent there is, to take our place. This gets us back to our Trinity discussion.

I have been following your posts from a long time. My parents don't follow your religion and they would never recognize your claims and philosophies to be true. The millions of people around me even do not know what you are talking about. So what is your actual position? Are you saying that everyone else who does not conform to your religion and its views is wrong? You have to, because most of the other religions in the world directly or indirectly conflict with yours regarding everything from its teachings to the petty superstitions. You believe in hell, right? You sir, are going to hell according to some religions because you eat steak. So, are you saying that you won't, because your religion is the correct one and everyone else's religion is crap?

@mrdecepticonleader said:

Wish Hitchens was still here

I miss the Hitchslaps....

Anyways, here is some ass kicking to religion from the great Hitch... Hitch won the debate by the way....

@SyIar: I am tired of repeating myself. Infants can't express their pain like adults, but it does not make them impervious to it. I'm throwing in your favorite word here. It is hypocrisy. I find it a grave matter of concern what you find amusing. 'Nuff said. Now you may choose to continue with some ad hominem or we can end it here.

@WildBeastBoy said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

WildBeastBoy said:

So many atheists continually discuss things they don't believe in here. I don't believe in Santa Claus therefore I don't spend hours posting on a forum about Santa Clause trying to convince others and myself there is no Santa Claus.

Hmmm.... A shout out to my fellow non-believers - if it were you or me comparing goD to Santa Claus, you would have been facing the wrath of the Christians(has happened before in this very thread, maybe last month), but when a christian does it, it is legit. What were the words again... oh yes, RELIGIOUS HYPOCRISY!

Your not a religion, so your statement is more babel. You have no knowledge of what you speak, yet you have so much to say. Clueless is your best description.

I happen to be brought up by deeply religious parents in a deeply religious neighborhood in a place with a great pious history. That would give you a "clue" about what I have learnt about religion.

Anyways, have you read the previous posts when some people in this thread became hostile because of the same comparison you used in your post?

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@Enemybird said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@Enemybird said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@SyIar said:

@lykopis said:

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@WildBeastBoy said:

You can't blame religion for what bad men do with it.

Why can't we? It is alright to blame communism for its shortcomings, but it is wrong to criticize religion for its faults! That is hypocrisy.

If you judge religion by it's past then it's safe to say that it would be hypocrisy not to judge everything else in the same way.

Just my two cents.

See, for me, I don't necessarily judge religion, but am just mindful of atrocities done its name -- not just in the past, but to present day. It's still ongoing.

I'm sure most people do and are, I know i'm aware of how dangerous religious beliefs can be to a very small minded person, but man will be man so i'm not going to try to justify their (our) actions by blaming things like religion for the way we are . People will always kill and martyr. It's only a matter of what they will try to shield themselves with in an attempt to justify their hate and ignorance.I just think the burning torches and pitchfork approach is kind of tasteless. :)

I have argued a long time ago in this thread that the good people would do good things and the bad would do terrible things, but to make perfectly moral people do immoral and terrible things, it takes religion. An example would be the genital mutilation of their own children by otherwise loving parents. Would they cut off a finger of their child for any other reason? No sir. It takes religion to commit such a horrible act.

But... Its a two way street because some religions also change the lives of people who do immoral things. They find God and transform into humble, polite, understanding & patient people. Now its understood that what they did to be deemed an immoral person cant be taken back, but you could argue if said person embraced and interpreted religion the way they do now, the person could have turned out better from the start. Honestly... thats what you see way more often than the example you've given. How many religious people have you talked to that have wanted to mutilate their own child? I'd bet none.

As a matter of fact, where I grew up, all the Islamic persons I've ever met, want to mutilate the genitals of their male child and they regard it as their religious duty. I don't want to sound repetitive, but where I was born, witch hunts are still going on in the name of religion(I had given the current toll a few weeks or a month ago). Another religious sect makes women sleep on the floor if they are having periods, no matter how chilly the night is. If a women is widowed, she is not to take part in any celebration including marriages. No one would ever run out of the examples of religious atrocities inflicted upon men because one only needs to look around. No matter how many good things organised religions have done(if there is any), the evils done by them would always be there, and yet it is religious scapegoating that you choose to hide its flaws. For me, that is unacceptable.

It is tricky to discuss religion in general when there are many different beliefs and practices in the world. When you say mutilate the genitals of a child are you talking about circumcision? Because there are certain health benefits from doing that. At any rate, as I've said many times on this site I despise discrimination and I hate that about any religion, even my own. So to some extent I can understand where your coming from. But to generalize religion as a whole over practices exclusive to a specific group? That's just wrong.

I don't want to sound evasive, but would you consider your genital to be mutilated without your own consent?... Wait... don't answer that. Well, I'm from a secular country, so I get to see them all. The convents try to convert the poor people from other religions in return of education for free, the fundamentalists have their own agendas, but it is the common people I'm talking about. No matter what religion it is, there are innumerable atrocities imposed upon the people by religion that demand answers or at least recognition.

LOL So you are talking about circumcision. You make it sound as if people are ripping out the genitalia of their kids because God told them to. But yeah... you are seriously f*ucked up in the head if you think circumcision is bad or is even widely religion based anymore. In the US we circumcise our kids for health and safety issues. I'm Atheist and when I have kids they will be circumcised.

You are not getting my point buddy. Would you ever try circumcision on your kids without anesthesia? If you are wondering, let me tell you that it is the way of circumcision in most countries.

Anesthesia during circumcision is unnecessary. It is a quick and painless process that the child won't even remember. Thats like getting angry that children who get vaccinated aren't sedated first.

We can have a full fledged debate on that matter. In fact, that debate is going on even now on higher grounds. But it is not about circumcision. Let us not go off the rail and talk about the atrocities imposed upon men by religion. Any comments on the ongoing witch hunts?

I don't want to debate about circumcision or religion. I just wanted to comment about the hypocrisy on your comment about hypocrisy. You repeatedly mentioned genital mutilation for whatever reason and when I found out you were talking about circumcision I couldn't help but point out the errors of that argument because not only was it unnecessary but you made it sound as if it were a bad thing and that only religious people do it which is not only false but unfounded by anything reasonable.

Which witch hunts are you referring to exactly? There are just sooo many nowadays.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. But as I have said, it is still a matter of debate whether it is right to circumcise without the use of anesthesia. I happen to see it as barbaric and medieval. Because an infant can't express the pain, it is normal. Hypocrisy it is. And yes, the practice of circumcision without anesthetics has emerged because of religion.

Yes, there ARE a lot of witch hunts nowadays. Look up the witch hunts in Assam for example. It is related to black magic which is a product of the religion the native people follow, i.e., Hinduism.

Anyways, it has been great dueling with you.

I don't think there is anything to debate about in terms of circumcision, but whatever floats your boat I suppose.

How about the Indian and African Martyrs? Where Christians are dragged out of their homes and beaten to death by hundreds of people? Do they matter? Of course you can use this example to argue that religion is bad for both sides, but as I have said before. Man is ignorant and evil. No matter how you look at it there will always be hate and intolerance.

I believe Atheism has recently turned into it's own religion with it's own God. By God I mean self delusion of immense hypocrisy (I like that word)

Many Atheists are starting to believe that a world without religion would be a peaceful world which is complete nonsense backed up by nothing factual at all.

First of all, atheism is not religion. Neither it has anything to say against religion. It is merely a disbelief in goD. Many thinkers pointed out the inherent flaws of religion throughout history and there are quite a few of them. The criticisms they forward are products of their intellect and reasoning, not of atheism.

Atheists with their own goDs? It is amusing enough that the word atheist even exists. I am not a blacksmith and there is not any term for non-blacksmiths. To term it as a religion? You make me laugh.

I have never said that a world without religion would be a peaceful place. But it would be a place without the evils it has to offer.

You misunderstood my statement about Atheism. I simply added that a lot of current Atheists have turned Atheism into something more than just a disbelief in God. Such as a rebellion against religion with the belief that without it the world would be a perfect place. Religion is subjective to evil just like everything else. No need to single it out.

Then I apologize. The world can surely be a better place without religion, if not perfect. As I have said earlier, just like any other institutions like politics or economics, religion is subject to criticism. No need to overreact when it is criticized for its flaws.

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@Enemybird said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@Enemybird said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@SyIar said:

@lykopis said:

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@WildBeastBoy said:

You can't blame religion for what bad men do with it.

Why can't we? It is alright to blame communism for its shortcomings, but it is wrong to criticize religion for its faults! That is hypocrisy.

If you judge religion by it's past then it's safe to say that it would be hypocrisy not to judge everything else in the same way.

Just my two cents.

See, for me, I don't necessarily judge religion, but am just mindful of atrocities done its name -- not just in the past, but to present day. It's still ongoing.

I'm sure most people do and are, I know i'm aware of how dangerous religious beliefs can be to a very small minded person, but man will be man so i'm not going to try to justify their (our) actions by blaming things like religion for the way we are . People will always kill and martyr. It's only a matter of what they will try to shield themselves with in an attempt to justify their hate and ignorance.I just think the burning torches and pitchfork approach is kind of tasteless. :)

I have argued a long time ago in this thread that the good people would do good things and the bad would do terrible things, but to make perfectly moral people do immoral and terrible things, it takes religion. An example would be the genital mutilation of their own children by otherwise loving parents. Would they cut off a finger of their child for any other reason? No sir. It takes religion to commit such a horrible act.

But... Its a two way street because some religions also change the lives of people who do immoral things. They find God and transform into humble, polite, understanding & patient people. Now its understood that what they did to be deemed an immoral person cant be taken back, but you could argue if said person embraced and interpreted religion the way they do now, the person could have turned out better from the start. Honestly... thats what you see way more often than the example you've given. How many religious people have you talked to that have wanted to mutilate their own child? I'd bet none.

As a matter of fact, where I grew up, all the Islamic persons I've ever met, want to mutilate the genitals of their male child and they regard it as their religious duty. I don't want to sound repetitive, but where I was born, witch hunts are still going on in the name of religion(I had given the current toll a few weeks or a month ago). Another religious sect makes women sleep on the floor if they are having periods, no matter how chilly the night is. If a women is widowed, she is not to take part in any celebration including marriages. No one would ever run out of the examples of religious atrocities inflicted upon men because one only needs to look around. No matter how many good things organised religions have done(if there is any), the evils done by them would always be there, and yet it is religious scapegoating that you choose to hide its flaws. For me, that is unacceptable.

It is tricky to discuss religion in general when there are many different beliefs and practices in the world. When you say mutilate the genitals of a child are you talking about circumcision? Because there are certain health benefits from doing that. At any rate, as I've said many times on this site I despise discrimination and I hate that about any religion, even my own. So to some extent I can understand where your coming from. But to generalize religion as a whole over practices exclusive to a specific group? That's just wrong.

I don't want to sound evasive, but would you consider your genital to be mutilated without your own consent?... Wait... don't answer that. Well, I'm from a secular country, so I get to see them all. The convents try to convert the poor people from other religions in return of education for free, the fundamentalists have their own agendas, but it is the common people I'm talking about. No matter what religion it is, there are innumerable atrocities imposed upon the people by religion that demand answers or at least recognition.

LOL So you are talking about circumcision. You make it sound as if people are ripping out the genitalia of their kids because God told them to. But yeah... you are seriously f*ucked up in the head if you think circumcision is bad or is even widely religion based anymore. In the US we circumcise our kids for health and safety issues. I'm Atheist and when I have kids they will be circumcised.

You are not getting my point buddy. Would you ever try circumcision on your kids without anesthesia? If you are wondering, let me tell you that it is the way of circumcision in most countries.

Anesthesia during circumcision is unnecessary. It is a quick and painless process that the child won't even remember. Thats like getting angry that children who get vaccinated aren't sedated first.

We can have a full fledged debate on that matter. In fact, that debate is going on even now on higher grounds. But it is not about circumcision. Let us not go off the rail and talk about the atrocities imposed upon men by religion. Any comments on the ongoing witch hunts?

I don't want to debate about circumcision or religion. I just wanted to comment about the hypocrisy on your comment about hypocrisy. You repeatedly mentioned genital mutilation for whatever reason and when I found out you were talking about circumcision I couldn't help but point out the errors of that argument because not only was it unnecessary but you made it sound as if it were a bad thing and that only religious people do it which is not only false but unfounded by anything reasonable.

Which witch hunts are you referring to exactly? There are just sooo many nowadays.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. But as I have said, it is still a matter of debate whether it is right to circumcise without the use of anesthesia. I happen to see it as barbaric and medieval. Because an infant can't express the pain, it is normal. Hypocrisy it is. And yes, the practice of circumcision without anesthetics has emerged because of religion.

Yes, there ARE a lot of witch hunts nowadays. Look up the witch hunts in Assam for example. It is related to black magic which is a product of the religion the native people follow, i.e., Hinduism.

Anyways, it has been great dueling with you.

I don't think there is anything to debate about in terms of circumcision, but whatever floats your boat I suppose.

How about the Indian and African Martyrs? Where Christians are dragged out of their homes and beaten to death by hundreds of people? Do they matter? Of course you can use this example to argue that religion is bad for both sides, but as I have said before. Man is ignorant and evil. No matter how you look at it there will always be hate and intolerance.

I believe Atheism has recently turned into it's own religion with it's own God. By God I mean self delusion of immense hypocrisy (I like that word)

Many Atheists are starting to believe that a world without religion would be a peaceful world which is complete nonsense backed up by nothing factual at all.

First of all, atheism is not religion. Neither it has anything to say against religion. It is merely a disbelief in goD. Many thinkers pointed out the inherent flaws of religion throughout history and there are quite a few of them. The criticisms they forward are products of their intellect and reasoning, not of atheism.

Atheists with their own goDs? It is amusing enough that the word atheist even exists. I am not a blacksmith and there is not any term for non-blacksmiths. To term it as a religion? You make me laugh.

I have never said that a world without religion would be a peaceful place. But it would be a place without the evils it has to offer.

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@Enemybird said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@Enemybird said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@SyIar said:

@lykopis said:

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@WildBeastBoy said:

You can't blame religion for what bad men do with it.

Why can't we? It is alright to blame communism for its shortcomings, but it is wrong to criticize religion for its faults! That is hypocrisy.

If you judge religion by it's past then it's safe to say that it would be hypocrisy not to judge everything else in the same way.

Just my two cents.

See, for me, I don't necessarily judge religion, but am just mindful of atrocities done its name -- not just in the past, but to present day. It's still ongoing.

I'm sure most people do and are, I know i'm aware of how dangerous religious beliefs can be to a very small minded person, but man will be man so i'm not going to try to justify their (our) actions by blaming things like religion for the way we are . People will always kill and martyr. It's only a matter of what they will try to shield themselves with in an attempt to justify their hate and ignorance.I just think the burning torches and pitchfork approach is kind of tasteless. :)

I have argued a long time ago in this thread that the good people would do good things and the bad would do terrible things, but to make perfectly moral people do immoral and terrible things, it takes religion. An example would be the genital mutilation of their own children by otherwise loving parents. Would they cut off a finger of their child for any other reason? No sir. It takes religion to commit such a horrible act.

But... Its a two way street because some religions also change the lives of people who do immoral things. They find God and transform into humble, polite, understanding & patient people. Now its understood that what they did to be deemed an immoral person cant be taken back, but you could argue if said person embraced and interpreted religion the way they do now, the person could have turned out better from the start. Honestly... thats what you see way more often than the example you've given. How many religious people have you talked to that have wanted to mutilate their own child? I'd bet none.

As a matter of fact, where I grew up, all the Islamic persons I've ever met, want to mutilate the genitals of their male child and they regard it as their religious duty. I don't want to sound repetitive, but where I was born, witch hunts are still going on in the name of religion(I had given the current toll a few weeks or a month ago). Another religious sect makes women sleep on the floor if they are having periods, no matter how chilly the night is. If a women is widowed, she is not to take part in any celebration including marriages. No one would ever run out of the examples of religious atrocities inflicted upon men because one only needs to look around. No matter how many good things organised religions have done(if there is any), the evils done by them would always be there, and yet it is religious scapegoating that you choose to hide its flaws. For me, that is unacceptable.

It is tricky to discuss religion in general when there are many different beliefs and practices in the world. When you say mutilate the genitals of a child are you talking about circumcision? Because there are certain health benefits from doing that. At any rate, as I've said many times on this site I despise discrimination and I hate that about any religion, even my own. So to some extent I can understand where your coming from. But to generalize religion as a whole over practices exclusive to a specific group? That's just wrong.

I don't want to sound evasive, but would you consider your genital to be mutilated without your own consent?... Wait... don't answer that. Well, I'm from a secular country, so I get to see them all. The convents try to convert the poor people from other religions in return of education for free, the fundamentalists have their own agendas, but it is the common people I'm talking about. No matter what religion it is, there are innumerable atrocities imposed upon the people by religion that demand answers or at least recognition.

LOL So you are talking about circumcision. You make it sound as if people are ripping out the genitalia of their kids because God told them to. But yeah... you are seriously f*ucked up in the head if you think circumcision is bad or is even widely religion based anymore. In the US we circumcise our kids for health and safety issues. I'm Atheist and when I have kids they will be circumcised.

You are not getting my point buddy. Would you ever try circumcision on your kids without anesthesia? If you are wondering, let me tell you that it is the way of circumcision in most countries.

Anesthesia during circumcision is unnecessary. It is a quick and painless process that the child won't even remember. Thats like getting angry that children who get vaccinated aren't sedated first.

We can have a full fledged debate on that matter. In fact, that debate is going on even now on higher grounds. But it is not about circumcision. Let us not go off the rail and talk about the atrocities imposed upon men by religion. Any comments on the ongoing witch hunts?

I don't want to debate about circumcision or religion. I just wanted to comment about the hypocrisy on your comment about hypocrisy. You repeatedly mentioned genital mutilation for whatever reason and when I found out you were talking about circumcision I couldn't help but point out the errors of that argument because not only was it unnecessary but you made it sound as if it were a bad thing and that only religious people do it which is not only false but unfounded by anything reasonable.

Which witch hunts are you referring to exactly? There are just sooo many nowadays.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. But as I have said, it is still a matter of debate whether it is right to circumcise without the use of anesthesia. I happen to see it as barbaric and medieval. Because an infant can't express the pain, it is normal. Hypocrisy it is. And yes, the practice of circumcision without anesthetics has emerged because of religion.

Yes, there ARE a lot of witch hunts nowadays. Look up the witch hunts in Assam for example. It is related to black magic which is a product of the religion the native people follow, i.e., Hinduism.

Anyways, it has been great dueling with you.

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@Enemybird said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@Enemybird said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@SyIar said:

@lykopis said:

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@WildBeastBoy said:

You can't blame religion for what bad men do with it.

Why can't we? It is alright to blame communism for its shortcomings, but it is wrong to criticize religion for its faults! That is hypocrisy.

If you judge religion by it's past then it's safe to say that it would be hypocrisy not to judge everything else in the same way.

Just my two cents.

See, for me, I don't necessarily judge religion, but am just mindful of atrocities done its name -- not just in the past, but to present day. It's still ongoing.

I'm sure most people do and are, I know i'm aware of how dangerous religious beliefs can be to a very small minded person, but man will be man so i'm not going to try to justify their (our) actions by blaming things like religion for the way we are . People will always kill and martyr. It's only a matter of what they will try to shield themselves with in an attempt to justify their hate and ignorance.I just think the burning torches and pitchfork approach is kind of tasteless. :)

I have argued a long time ago in this thread that the good people would do good things and the bad would do terrible things, but to make perfectly moral people do immoral and terrible things, it takes religion. An example would be the genital mutilation of their own children by otherwise loving parents. Would they cut off a finger of their child for any other reason? No sir. It takes religion to commit such a horrible act.

But... Its a two way street because some religions also change the lives of people who do immoral things. They find God and transform into humble, polite, understanding & patient people. Now its understood that what they did to be deemed an immoral person cant be taken back, but you could argue if said person embraced and interpreted religion the way they do now, the person could have turned out better from the start. Honestly... thats what you see way more often than the example you've given. How many religious people have you talked to that have wanted to mutilate their own child? I'd bet none.

As a matter of fact, where I grew up, all the Islamic persons I've ever met, want to mutilate the genitals of their male child and they regard it as their religious duty. I don't want to sound repetitive, but where I was born, witch hunts are still going on in the name of religion(I had given the current toll a few weeks or a month ago). Another religious sect makes women sleep on the floor if they are having periods, no matter how chilly the night is. If a women is widowed, she is not to take part in any celebration including marriages. No one would ever run out of the examples of religious atrocities inflicted upon men because one only needs to look around. No matter how many good things organised religions have done(if there is any), the evils done by them would always be there, and yet it is religious scapegoating that you choose to hide its flaws. For me, that is unacceptable.

It is tricky to discuss religion in general when there are many different beliefs and practices in the world. When you say mutilate the genitals of a child are you talking about circumcision? Because there are certain health benefits from doing that. At any rate, as I've said many times on this site I despise discrimination and I hate that about any religion, even my own. So to some extent I can understand where your coming from. But to generalize religion as a whole over practices exclusive to a specific group? That's just wrong.

I don't want to sound evasive, but would you consider your genital to be mutilated without your own consent?... Wait... don't answer that. Well, I'm from a secular country, so I get to see them all. The convents try to convert the poor people from other religions in return of education for free, the fundamentalists have their own agendas, but it is the common people I'm talking about. No matter what religion it is, there are innumerable atrocities imposed upon the people by religion that demand answers or at least recognition.

LOL So you are talking about circumcision. You make it sound as if people are ripping out the genitalia of their kids because God told them to. But yeah... you are seriously f*ucked up in the head if you think circumcision is bad or is even widely religion based anymore. In the US we circumcise our kids for health and safety issues. I'm Atheist and when I have kids they will be circumcised.

You are not getting my point buddy. Would you ever try circumcision on your kids without anesthesia? If you are wondering, let me tell you that it is the way of circumcision in most countries.

Anesthesia during circumcision is unnecessary. It is a quick and painless process that the child won't even remember. Thats like getting angry that children who get vaccinated aren't sedated first.

We can have a full fledged debate on that matter. In fact, that debate is going on even now on higher grounds. But it is not about circumcision. Let us not go off the rail and talk about the atrocities imposed upon men by religion. Any comments on the ongoing witch hunts?

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@Enemybird said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@Enemybird said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@SyIar said:

@lykopis said:

@SyIar said:

@TheAtheist888 said:

@WildBeastBoy said:

You can't blame religion for what bad men do with it.

Why can't we? It is alright to blame communism for its shortcomings, but it is wrong to criticize religion for its faults! That is hypocrisy.

If you judge religion by it's past then it's safe to say that it would be hypocrisy not to judge everything else in the same way.

Just my two cents.

See, for me, I don't necessarily judge religion, but am just mindful of atrocities done its name -- not just in the past, but to present day. It's still ongoing.

I'm sure most people do and are, I know i'm aware of how dangerous religious beliefs can be to a very small minded person, but man will be man so i'm not going to try to justify their (our) actions by blaming things like religion for the way we are . People will always kill and martyr. It's only a matter of what they will try to shield themselves with in an attempt to justify their hate and ignorance.I just think the burning torches and pitchfork approach is kind of tasteless. :)

I have argued a long time ago in this thread that the good people would do good things and the bad would do terrible things, but to make perfectly moral people do immoral and terrible things, it takes religion. An example would be the genital mutilation of their own children by otherwise loving parents. Would they cut off a finger of their child for any other reason? No sir. It takes religion to commit such a horrible act.

But... Its a two way street because some religions also change the lives of people who do immoral things. They find God and transform into humble, polite, understanding & patient people. Now its understood that what they did to be deemed an immoral person cant be taken back, but you could argue if said person embraced and interpreted religion the way they do now, the person could have turned out better from the start. Honestly... thats what you see way more often than the example you've given. How many religious people have you talked to that have wanted to mutilate their own child? I'd bet none.

As a matter of fact, where I grew up, all the Islamic persons I've ever met, want to mutilate the genitals of their male child and they regard it as their religious duty. I don't want to sound repetitive, but where I was born, witch hunts are still going on in the name of religion(I had given the current toll a few weeks or a month ago). Another religious sect makes women sleep on the floor if they are having periods, no matter how chilly the night is. If a women is widowed, she is not to take part in any celebration including marriages. No one would ever run out of the examples of religious atrocities inflicted upon men because one only needs to look around. No matter how many good things organised religions have done(if there is any), the evils done by them would always be there, and yet it is religious scapegoating that you choose to hide its flaws. For me, that is unacceptable.

It is tricky to discuss religion in general when there are many different beliefs and practices in the world. When you say mutilate the genitals of a child are you talking about circumcision? Because there are certain health benefits from doing that. At any rate, as I've said many times on this site I despise discrimination and I hate that about any religion, even my own. So to some extent I can understand where your coming from. But to generalize religion as a whole over practices exclusive to a specific group? That's just wrong.

I don't want to sound evasive, but would you consider your genital to be mutilated without your own consent?... Wait... don't answer that. Well, I'm from a secular country, so I get to see them all. The convents try to convert the poor people from other religions in return of education for free, the fundamentalists have their own agendas, but it is the common people I'm talking about. No matter what religion it is, there are innumerable atrocities imposed upon the people by religion that demand answers or at least recognition.

LOL So you are talking about circumcision. You make it sound as if people are ripping out the genitalia of their kids because God told them to. But yeah... you are seriously f*ucked up in the head if you think circumcision is bad or is even widely religion based anymore. In the US we circumcise our kids for health and safety issues. I'm Atheist and when I have kids they will be circumcised.

You are not getting my point buddy. Would you ever try circumcision on your kids without anesthesia? If you are wondering, let me tell you that it is the way of circumcision in most countries. Hence, the term I used is genital mutilation.