i think that everyone's forgetting that logan has one of the highest if not the highest body count in the x-men. he understands how killing changes a person forever, how it shapes and molds your life from then on. he is only acting this way because he doesn't want any of the kids to turn out to be cold, merciless killers. being a soldier is not for everyone. it is just some people who should not have to be exposed to things like that. look at what killing turned frank castle into, what it changed logan into. if cyclops was thinking like a officer should be he would never have underestimated the hellfire club. being a soldier is something that not everyone can be. wolverine was right, but so was cyclops. circumstance gives way to morals.
Cyclops was right, and Wolverine is naive (ironic). In an ideal world children wouldn't have to kill. But we don't live in an ideal world, and neither do the X-men.
Israel was established as a country after world war 2, and from that moment on all of its citizens were trained to fight; men, women, and children. They did this because the Jewish people had nearly been wiped off the face of the Earth, and they wanted to make sure that no one could finish the job.
Since its creation, the state of Israel has been in six wars where they were severely out-numbered and usually out-gunned. And they won every single time. Not because the people of Israel are heartless killing machines, but because they have the ability to be that when the situation calls for it.
You don't become Frank Castle from killing one person, you become Frank Castle from suffering trauma and having mental conditions (He really needs to stop going off the meds). You don't become Wolverine from shooting a terrorist, you become Wolverine from corrupt government systems and an increasingly convoluted back story (seriously, it changes every year).
Cyclops isn't training children to be ruthless killers, he's training children to be ruthless as necessary; he's training them to survive.
Your example with israel is filled with argument that AGAINST your point, but there's things you don't say, out of misunderstanding or lack of history knowledge, I presume.
The state of Israel has not been created by Israelian alone, it was created by european and USA nations, in a place which was considered a "dump place." Who cared about the palestinian right at the time ? They acted like there was nobody already living there. It was an easy way to say : "Now, you have your own country, so don't blame us anyway if something bad happen to you people !"
How do you believe Israelian got 6 war in less than 1 century ? Arabs were pissed off because nobody asked their opinions. And the main reason why Israel didn't their ass kicked was a combination of political state (Cold war, USA support...) and the fact that many arabs leader are either corrupt, incompetent, or sold out to the bone. No to mention that Israel got the bomb...whatever they can say.
Today, the situation is a mess, but Israelian POV isn't shiny, new israelian illegal colony are raised monthly, and nobody really care. Palestinian, out of deseperation are being hostage by terrorist that claim to be freedom fighter. Israel in retaliation of attacks against his civilian has decided to make palestinian people starve to death. The result ? Not only it solve absolutely nothing, but the Palestinan are even more aggressive and neibouring nation doesn't show signs of softening either. I don't say that Israel is all guilty, it certainly isn't, but it's certainly not innocent either.
You don't become Frank Castle from killing one person, yes. But when you kill one person you cross a line that you will never go back. And I assure you, taugh child to be ruthless and kill is a bad idea. Why ? Read Nothing new to the western front and learn history : a shocking number of WWI and WWII veteran have choose to become mercenaries or soldier after these war because they were late or early teenagers that got nothing to return after the war : No real family life or civilian competence, no social or general skill that permit them to reinserate in a peaceful life, only the absolute knowledge that the only valid law is the law of war. And you should see the place where they dwelled : Post WWI Russian Wrecked civil war, Mozambique, South america, Indochine, Northern Ireland : all these place were sucky place to live for decades !!
Israel, as you pointed it, isn't that nice lace to live either : terrorism, One war each decade, what a nice place to live ! Oh, sure, they have a great economy ! Untill these last days....
Sure, all soldier doesn't become monsters, but a militant society isn't a good one to live. It only raise the rae of violence not only against other society, but also within itself. In the real world, I doubt Cyclops could control the use of violence very long without resorting himself on violence against human (If he's good.) or other rival mutant group. (If he's bad.)
That's the choice Cyclops has made. It's not hard to guess why Beast and Wolvie want to go out.
P.S. EDIT : Happily for Cyclops, that's a comics, so he can get out of this mess, with almost no problem, like Tony Stark. But the value taught by his standing point still isn't worth a sh...t in practical.
Excuse-me, but that's a terrorist logic. Doing nothing after knowing the fact, that, is a crime.
Cold hard fact number One : we kill and enslave to survive. Cold hard fact number two : We doesnt have to do that ! There's enough to us in this world to survive, if we re careful, obviously, majority of people aren't.
It's greed and power lust that push us to kill each other in order to obtain what we seems to think right to possess.
What is creating the world today isn't survival anymore, this is lazyness, lack of empathy, arrogance and lies.
The Hiroshoma Bomb was one example and using scared children as soldiers, regardless of whether they have superpowers or not is another. There are some moral codes that should not be broken.
Dude if their had been an invasion of the mainland the Japanese were prepared to die for their emperor which they believed was a God. I remember reading that they were to arm women and children with sharp or blunt objects and to have them fight off the invading forces. Now imagine a full grown American soldier killing children in self-defense. I'm not saying dropping the bomb or not dropping it was right, they were in a situation where regardless of the outcome life was going to be lost, there is no escape from that.
It's not an easy subject for at this point of the war both camp has reached the point of no return. Curtis Lemay, the commander of the USAAF in the pacific, had already stated to Robert McNamara that after the bombing of Tokyo by napalm bomb, they would have been trialed for war crimes if they would have loose... so the historical example is kind of awkward, but the japanese were not better, considering the rape of nanking and the prisonner treatment in general.
The question here is to know if Cyclops has crossed it now. Personnally, I think he had the moment he stopped to care for the feeling of those he claim to protect. Has somebody has pointed that he NEVER excused himself, or even seemed to considered things ? No he was all in the"You're wrong, I'm right, and I'm the only one who understand what it's really like." stance. This attitude is called hubris.
I just hope, as several poster, that this story will have a satisfying conclusion. I do not necessarily want to see Scott coming back to Logan creeping and crying to say you were right I was wrong but I can't stand his arrogant attitude and I would not like to see him coming out with a Karma Houdini because it will annoye me to no end.
So we agree to disagree, no harm here. (AND "gasp" HOW DID I SHOW MY AGE ?) XD (OK, cloning is good too and artificial impregnating can work too, but that's soooo duuull ! XD)
1) Yeah, CitizenBane has upgraded my memory on this ! But it's not making Cyclops any better. Like I said earlier, he made the X-men pupil's and student action boy scout went into improvised child soldier. Hooray !
2) No, he's not for killing, he's for taking whatever he has to do to assure the survival of mutancy. WHA-THE-VER ! I'm surely sound kind a bit aggressive now, but I assure you than I'm not. I just want to know if you understand all the implication of this word and these acts it's implying.
Some tough things must be done, it's sure, but I will apply the rules of cautions, here. The fundamental question is will end justifying the means ? That remember me a debate a famous X-Villain and Prof X. had years ago.
3) Yeah, but he does have a lack of consistency to enforce his believe. By his coldness, he has failed to maintain some cohesion in the mutant communauty : Logan wasn't the first to go, Beast has left earlier. You tell us he's not a villain, but Bishop was not a villain earlier too. He's not Magneto yet but he's fencing on a very thin line here.
4) Bad writing surely, from the start they opened the museum, the comments "it will be bombed" flourished on the page... :p
Mmmh, I admit I never liked Cyclops from the start, but he had my respect. Now, not anymore. He take all responsibility that no one as asked to take in the first place. He's having an hubris as great as the moon.
Finally, To me, Cyclops has betrayed the X-men ideal. Maybe he's right, but he's not an X-men anymore.
Cyclops is correct. Wolverine has been turned into an idealist by a bad writer in Jason Aaron. For what was once such a good character it's a shame to see him be written so poorly.
Funny enough, I was thinking the best about Cyclops and Matt Fraction. Truth to be told, you're right about Wolverine, but maybe we have difficulty to come out of status quo. :- /
Wrong question. babs : The real one is this : Is it possible to do interesting comics without political ?
It's surely possible, but not easy. Especially in the case of Captain America, Superman and the X-men. Even in the most optimistic and goody-goody approache, it will have a political undertone and someone will end offended or alienated.
Wolverine's comment that they are children and not soldiers is ridiculous. The idea of the X-Men has always taken children and put them in harm's way in order to fight evil and protect the innocent. The original X-Men were in their mid-teens when they first put on their costumes and fought Magneto, a mutant terrorist. Teenagers but still not adults. Professor X may have had dreams of a peaceful co-existence but he also trained them to be soldiers.
Aw c'mon ! Prof X was an idealist, but he always trying to teach that X-men must not kill people.
Cyclops is an hypocrite because his argument his that with 186 mutants left, the mutant must do whatever they can to stay existing as a specis. This is one the most stupid and heinous argument I have ever heard.
Why ? Theses points :
1) If they don't engage in a mass orgy or genetic cloning or reproduction, 186 people is not enough to bring back any species at all. Period. Mutants as a species are doomed. It's sad, but Get over it.
2) Cyclops's argument mean that they can kill whoever they want to stay alive. Human aren't the only one to feel fear, mutants too : how do you think it will last before mutant people will be killing out of fear instead of self-defense ? My guess ? Not very long.
3) Lastly, his arguments is the same that some WWII dictators ave done with some other people. He's doin' the same errors than Magneto : he became what he fear the most.
4) Sure? Wolverine will not be the best of teacher, but at least he's trying. He was drinking in a bar ? Good. What happen to the tactical and analatycal genius of Mr. Scott Summers ? Could he not prevent an attack on the Museum ? After more than ten years of working with Wolverine, he could not have a hints of his personnality and drinking habits ?
Sure being a leader isn't easy, but there's something even harder, admit when you're wrong and we know that Cyke isn't good at that these times.