The end is here.........

Recent changes in my life have prompted a massive rethink of many aspects of my life. 
One of these includes collecting comics. 
For quite a while (several years come to think about it), I've been partially driven to maintain my collection for the collections sake, rather than the strict enthusiam for simply reading the story I had years ago. Then there is the fact that the collection now takes up one and a half rooms in my house (not mentioning the fact that the floor in the one room has had to be reinforced to take the weight).
Having collected comics for 30 years (which is far longer than the average length of a marriage), I have come to the fateful decision to stop collecting......... 
I know my comic shop screamed when they heard (profits will be down by 29%....LOL). 
Like I said, I've reached a crossroads and as I determine the path I want to take in the future, I need to be clear about why I'm doing something - not simply because I have 30 years of collecting pushing me forward to keep collecting but because I want to read the stories and see what happens next.

Perhaps I've gotten cynical after reading so many stories that in many cases it's easy to see the plot twist issues ahead of the change in direction. 
Perhaps its because having read, talked, discussed, argued, converted and played (in RPGs) these stories and characters that I just need to 'step out' from them for a while (likely a long while). 
As part of this fateful decision, I'm also taking my leave of the Vine, as this has played a part in my decision. 
Having spent almost 3 years debating in the Battles forum, I have grown a bit tired of the same arguments - not with those Vine members (and you know who you are) who want to discuss the combatants but with those who never listen to any reason (and we all know who they are). 
I'll still drop in from time to time but for right now I'm taking my leave. 
I have really enjoyed the Vine - the discussions with many you have been high points that even helped me learn a thing or two, LOL. 
 
See you on the far side.

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Power Grids: Feats for DC Powerhouses

This blog is a request for help in being able to complete the power grids I am working on. 
As per Morhpheus's suggestion (blame him : )  ), I am asking you to provide me with scans / evidence of feats performed by DC powerhouses, for this particular blog. I will repeat this type of blog as the subject matter changes i.e. Marvel Powerhouses, Speedsters, Street Level, Sorcerers, Mentalists etc.
 
So DC Powerhouses, heroes or villians include Superman, WW, Martian Manhunter, Capt Atom, Orion, Despero, Kalibak, Black Adam, Major Force etc.
 
The feats I want to collect should not just be top end feats but general everyday ones as well. 
Don't post Silver Age or Elseworlds, try to stick to current continuity.
The feats need to cover, 
 

Strength

Endurance

Reaction Speed

Movement Speed (Running, Swimming & Leaping)

Movement Speed (Flight & Teleportation)

Physical Durability

Energy Durability

Agility

Intelligence

Fighting Skill

Energy Projection

Energy Manipulation

Telepathic Abilities

Matter Projection

Matter Manipulation

Body Modification  
 
Thanks for your help : )

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Power Grids: Strength Chart

As a follow on from my first blog post on this subject found here, I have got the strength chart in some kind of order.
Now it may look complicated but thats why I'm here : ) 
 
Feats can be realatively straight forward to quantify so at some point I will be asking people for help in gathering strength feats (by scans) for all comic book characters, so that a true rating can be ascertained for them. 
I propose that each character may have 2 ratings for strength. The first one is the common strength we see them display, month in month out, and the second rating is there for those extreme feats that they sometimes pull out of their repective hats. 
 
Now I have not gone in to 'population mode' yet for the grid as by my rough count there are at least 8000 comic book characters who could be ranked........ 
 
Anyhow, have a look at the grid and let me know what you think. 
 

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Power Ratings


As I have broken up from work for the year as I have an excess number of holidays to take thanks to my workaholic life style : (, I decided to pay a visit to a project that I was working on a long time ago for the Vine, that sprang up from a conversation I had been in with Forever and Buckshot (having a conversation with these guys really helps to clear out the mental cobwebs and the ideas sparked from speaking with 'like minds' really helps. 
Anyhow I digress. The subject was on producing more comprehensive power grids to describe any comic book character (from any universe), over a wider range of abilities. 
Think of the current Marvel power grids only describe a limited number of characteristsics: Intelligence, Strength, Speed, Durability, Energy Projection and Fighting Skills. They also only break the ratings down over a 7 point scale - that does not do justice to splitting up some of the characters in terms of ability. 
 
In dusting off the old project, I had not realised how much work I had done but also how much work was left to do. 
So right now, I though that I might as well solicite some ideas on the concept so far and then try to finish off this thing - before it finishes me : ) 
 
OK now for the science part (as the commercials say), 
 
The power grid headings were going to be as follows (in no particular order), 
 
Strength 
Reaction Speed 
Endurance  
Movement Speed (Flight) 
Movement Speed (Running/Swimming/Leaping) 
Kinectic Durability 
Energy Durability 
Agility 
Intelligence 
Fighting Skill 
Energy Projection / Manipulation 
Telepathic Strength 
Telekinectic Strength (a duplex scale that takes in to account not just total mass moved but atomic / subatomic manipulation - tricky little things those atoms) 
 
Now the actual scales is where the real fun starts. Looking at the range of characters power levels in Marvel and DC, I have come to the realisation that to do the characters justice, I think that at least a 30 point scale is required to differentiate between the characters sufficiently. 
(I will only mention briefly that I have also looked at 40 and 50 point scales as well.........) 
  
So please comment - make it constructive because I'm looking for feedback to help move this forward.
29 Comments

Arguing with a block of granite......

Recently I had this pleasurable experience and let me tell it's something I would not wish on my worst enemy.

Some people can be downright nasty and as resistant to a logical argument as a block of stone.

So as I promised the block of stone in question, I post here our full PM banter.

Read and enjoy!

PLEASE NOTE THAT THERE IS A STRONG CONCENTRATION OF SARCASM BELOW SO IF THIS OFFENDS YOU, READ NO FURTHER.

The order of postings will be listed as Me and ZC.

Me:

No I don't lie.

If you belive that I am wrong then lets see your estimates. At least I have the courage to put my estimates before the vine audience for comment.

So put your money where your mouth is and lets see your calculations for exactly what the Hulk can lift in a calm state.

ZC:

Well for one i think of it this way if i lie here then its most likley every body else will. So no i didn't make it up. Secondly there is no record to ever state a hulk even the first versions lifting lifting less then 75 tons. The one that lifted 75 was on the patheons or something like that and died to hoarfan some 50ft wolf. thats the weakest version to date. And if you listed to what you typed 20 times stronger then calm hulk that makes no sense who would agree some like like kalibak is 20x stronger then hulk??

Superman one million could be or is trion juggernaut yeah sun dipped superman prime definitely but kalibak guy half as strong as superman being 20x stronger then hulk. Either you hate hulk alot of you really love kalibak.

Me:

So you admit to lying.

Well that's good to know. I remind myself of that everytime you post something.

I don't lie. I don't have to. What advantage does it get me.

Have you ever done mathematics ???

I only ask as you seem to think that 50000 tonnes is less than 75 or even 85 tonnes ?

Is that the case ?

If by my estimates the Hulk can lift 50000 tonnes (when calm) and Kalibak can lift 1000000 tonnes (thats 1 million tonnes).

1 million tonnes divided by 50000 tonnes supplies an answer of 20.

So based on a calm hulk lifting 50000 tonnes, then Kalibak should be able to lift 20x more than him.

Thats basic maths.

ZC:

Also i didn't admit to lying if you took the time to read it that is basically like karma stupid so why lie about something when some one else could easily lie to me the arguments would get no where.

thats basic bull. I'm not lying it is you who is lying. don't try and guess how much he really use to lift when marvel clearly said it was 75 tons. You make no sense and only show how much you really hate hulk and love kalibak. Can you demonstrate when kalibak how ever shown to 20 x stronger then superman or Thor or drax??? NO because he lifts about half as much as superman from DC says i don't see how you can go against the word of the creators there is no point is trying to says your thoughts then. Also your esimates yes estimates are so off kalibak lifts 50tons at most not 1mill don't say what you would like him to be says what it actually is cause if thats the cause i might as well just say hulk lifts2 mill tons. Also in most of your post you lie not me.

Me:

And that's why I ignore you because your comments make no sense.

ZC:

coming from the guy who doesn't even know what they are talking about and is to stupid to realize that marvel already came up with how strong he is makes you sound really dumb. Your no better then me just cause you think you know more. ONce you put Hulk was more invulnerable then thor then kalibak 20x stronger then a hulk who could lift over 100tons you made no sense not a damn thing you could tell me that i said didn't make sense. Your post aren't even worth reading when you put crap like that.

Me:

Yawn....

Me (again):

Have you any idea of the strength of different steels or other alloys ?

I take you don't. Well I do.

Everyday I have to calculate the stress forces that would cause components to fail in their applications.

For the Hulk or other Marvel powerhouses to rip/punch through thick steel doors and the like or radically deform tank armour in 1 blow requires them to be a lot stronger that being able to lift 75 - 100 tonnes. They would not be able to deliver sufficient force to perform these feats.

Thats science and maths.

But then you can probably ignore this comment as well.

ZC:

Actually i do know the difference with the strongest of the metals being either uranium or titanium on the periodic table. Yes hulk ripping through those doors like tissue demonstrates hes over 100tons but i'm not talking about that hulk i'm talking about what you said was classic hulk lifting 50,000tonnes then saying its over 100tons. Then saying kalibak is 20x stronger then that which would mean hes on of DC's strongest people which i highly doubt since he is ranked half as strong as superman which you keep ignoring. The version of hulk that rips doors that are made of steel is usually already inraged but in marvel steel doors are a feat but not to big Thor knocked down a steel door with one punch while explaining how he didn't kill orka because it wouldn't be the right thing to do.

Me:

How many uranium or titanium doors have you seen ??

Funny I thought most were made from alloys of steel.

If it requires a calm hulk to be able to apply 50000 tonnes of force to break through a steel wall then you would accept that he can lift that amount as well ??

So if DC have said that Kalibak is roughly half as strong as Superman and he can lift 1000000 tonnes, then don't you agree that 1 million divided by 50 thousand is 20 ??? So 20 times stronger.

This strength level of Kalibak was set back in the 1980's. Since then many DC characters have gotten stronger. So Kalibak is far from being in the top tier DC strength beings.

I have seen a calm Hulk rip through a steel door. If you take the time to notice, when he is enraged, going through steel doors is a lot easier (he ploughs through them) as he is stronger.

ZC:

None because writers base the doors off of realife doors like when you go to a bank what type of metal is the door made off?? If they where to try and make a uranium door it be way to heavy to move and take even longer to open then the ones we have and i think it has a higher melting point.

Yes i would accept he can lift that door and alot more but a calm hulk is only at 75tons. Now saying kalibak can lift what you say 1million tons then hulk some very small number is and understatement. Kalibak is at 50tons. The way your writing the numbers is kinda confusing me so i have to say it like this. But is kalibak lift half of superman then its about 50tons hulk is gonna be 25% over that at 75tons. Kalibaks weapons can throw some devastating blow that could feel close to 100tons or if good enough connecting 100tons its self. But kalibak is no where near 20xstronger then hulk then superman would be at the level of superman one million 24/7 and should never have a problem after the first punch. Also the same should be said for hulk for being in the top that be impossible once marvels adds up others like walker mangog drax Thor beta ray bill hulk isn't anywere near the top maybe in hero terms but hes not gonna be at one two or three probably.

Me:

I'll say this slowly for you.

In the 1980's when Superman was relaunched, it was said that he could lift the great Pyramid of Egypt, that weights 2.5 million tonnes.

Around the same time DC also said that kalibaks strength was roughly half that of Superman.

So roughly 1 million tonnes.

That's DC figures, not mine.

A being like Superman 1 Million can lift at least trillions of tonnes (that's 10000000000+ tonnes). Kalibak and todays Superman are weak by comparison. A calm Hulk is weak by comparison.

ZC:

See thats where your so wrong stop saying he can lift trillions of tons do you listen to your self??? You say i should be on the poo poo list. Thats crazy Hulk is at the same level if not stronger then superman kalibak is half that of superman and if they changed it then it wasn't by very much cause he still loses pretty easily to. Yes the pyramids weight alot a being like thor can easily throw a pyramid as well any form thor could. The only version of superman that could lift so much trillion tons is superman one million. Here i actually thought you made sense. If your gonna go against the creators of the person then this has no point what so ever cause then i could simply say hulk lifts zillions more then kalibak.

Me:

Well I think i have wasted enough time on you.

If you cannot accept DC's published figures and examples of Marvels powerhouses as evidence then I shall quit wasting my time.

By the way you still never posted your thoughts on what Hulk can lift in the forums. So when you do, we get others discussing them.

ZC:

No i have wasted all this time on you i'm talking to a guy who doesn't agree with the creators own facts then you have wasted my time. Your going by thought i'm going by facat so there for i obviously haven't been lying then the only person who would agree with you is gambler the superman hop on.

Also why should i post your just either gonna ignore the truth or say your opinion then rather fact.

Now here I was thinking that a lot of what we publish is opinion based......Oh never mind as since Superman can lift 300 tonnes (according to ZC) I am sure everything will be alright in the end.

With blocks of granite leading the way and having their say I have hope for the future of the Vine.

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New Power Grids: Work in Progress

Ok, here is the table that covers both Intelligence and Agility. The table list the rank number, description and the factor multiplier against an average human.

(1)Frail, 0.4x...(2)Lowly, 0.7x...(3)Avg Adult, 1x...(4)Atheletic, 2x...(5)Intensive Training, 3x...(6)Peak Human, 4x, Cap America...(7)Low Enhanced Human, 5x...(8)Mid Enhanced Human, 7x...(9)High Enhanced Human, 9x...(10)Low Super Human, 12x...(11) 15x...(12) 20x, Spiderman...(13)Mid Super Human, 25x...(14)35x...(15) 45x...(16)High Super Human, 60x...(17)Low Meta Human, 70x...(18) 85x...(19) 100x... (20)Mid Meta Human, 150x...(21) 250x...(22) 500x...(23)High Meta Human, 1000x...(24)Tier 1 Cosmic, 2000x...(25)Tier 2 Cosmic, 5000x...(26)Tier 3 Cosmic, 10000x...(27)Tier 4 Cosmic, 25000x...(28)Tier 5 Cosmic, 50000x...(29)Tier 6 Cosmic, 100,000x...(30)Tier 7 Cosmic, 250,000x

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New Power Grids: Work in Progress

Ok heres the table for Energy durability. It lists rank number, factor times an average humans durability and then an exemplar (if i have one in mind).

This table works for heat (1 = average human = 45 deg C for heat) and amperage (1 = 1A). It does not work for cold etc but is a guideline (I have got a cold table as well but we could end up with like 20 tables). The first 11 ranks are where any changes exist between this and the Kinectic table.

(1) 0.4x...(2) 0.7x...(3) 1x, Skin...(4) 1.2x...(5) 1.4x...(6) 1.7x, Cap America...(7) 3x...(8) 5x...(9) 9x...(10) 16x...(11) 28x...(12) 47x...(13) 70x...(14) 105x...(15) 157x...(16) 235x...(17) 412x...(18) 721x...(19) 1262x...(20) 2208x...(21) 3865x...(22) 6763x...(23) 11836x...(24) 26630x...(25) 59918x ...(26) 134816x...(27) 303336x...(28) 682506x...(29) 1535638x...(30) 3455186x

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New Power Grids: Work in Progress

Ok heres the table for Kinectic durability. It lists rank number, factor time an average humans durability and then an exemplar (if i have one in mind).

(1) 0.4x...(2) 0.7x...(3) 1x, Skin...(4) 1.5x...(5) 2.2x...(6) 3x, Cap America...(7) 5x...(8) 9x...(9) 14x, Spiderman...(10) 21x...(11) 31x...(12) 47x...(13) 70x...(14) 105x...(15) 157x...(16) 235x, Luke Cage...(17) 412x...(18) 721x...(19) 1262x, Thing...(20) 2208x...(21) 3865x, Wonderman...(22) 6763x, Sentry...(23) 11836x...(24) 26630x...(25) 59918x ...(26) 134816x...(27) 303336x...(28) 682506x...(29) 1535638x...(30) 3455186x

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New Power Grids: Work in Progress

The entry below is for Movement (Flight) Speed. The entry comprises by line: Rank Number, Description, mph and Exemplars.

(1) Frail, 25...(2) Lowly, 50...(3) Avg Adult, 100...(4) Atheletic, 200...(5) Intensive Training, 500, Black Bolt...(6) Peak Human, 1000 (mach 1.4), Ikarus...(7) Low Enhanced Human, 2000 (mach 2.8)...(8) Mid Enhanced Human, 5000 (mach 7), Hyperion...(9) High Enhanced Human, 10000 (mach 13.9)...(10) Low Super Human, 20000 (mach 27.8)...(11) 50000 (mach 69.5)...(12) 100000...(13) Mid Super Human, 200000...(14) 500000...(15) 1000000...(16) High Super Human, 2000000...(17) Low Meta Human, 5000000...(18) 10000000...(19) 20000000...(20) Mid Meta Human, 50000000...(21) 100000000...(22) 300000000...(23) High Meta Human, 670616629 (speed of light, c)...(24) Tier 1 Cosmic, 2000000000 (3xc)...(25) Tier 2 Cosmic, 6000000000 (9xc)...(26) Tier 3 Cosmic, 18000000000 (27xc)...(27) Tier 4 Cosmic, 54000000000 (81xc)...(28) Tier 5 Cosmic, 1.62E+11 (242xc)...(29) Tier 6 Cosmic, 4.86E+11 (725xc)...(30) Tier 7 Cosmic, 1.458E+12 (2174xc)

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