Edited by DarkShadows

Wonderful article you have there. Starfire, not my favorite character though I don't her, is a mess up character. I was in shock at the way she is being treated. Being treated like a sex machine. Ugh.

I love your part about Raven, obviously, she's my favorite character. I really hate how she is being treated in the past years. She's good then she's bad then she's good again--it's a cycle going in constant circles! I feel glad that she is being benched, at least she wouldn't be treated like the way Lobdell is treating Starfire. It's a good thing he dropped the idea of using Raven in Outlaws.

I hope when Raven gets pick up in the near future, and it better be an excellent writer who can treat her well. JL Dark a great place for her. Zatanna could help her with her powers and it would be quite humorous to see because we know these two women don't get along. And it is also a perfect chance to see Raven explore her powers more, it's obvious she is very powerful.

I also agree on the whole Wally/Raven thing. They would have been a great couple until Wolfman decided to end it. Yet, with this reboot I hope this pairing can have a second shot even though it's very unlikely since Barry never married Iris. But there can always be another idea for Wally becoming Kid Flash...

(Note: Sorry if my comment sounds a bit weird, I just came back from school, it's very windy outside, I'm dead tired... and I should be doing my homework)

Posted by sputnik

@DarkShadows: absolutley. they've messed up so many characters alreay. they should be preserved, enhanced, not degrageded.

Posted by AtraCruor

I just have something to say about Terra... why is it okay for the Joker to have no real explanation for being a bastard of pure evil, but not Terra? There's never been a given reason for why he is who he is, what his real motivations are except for causing absolute anarchy and screwing with Batman. Hell he doesn't even have a true origin story after all these years. This is a character that has existed for far longer than Terra, had much more of an overall impact than she has, been in far more stories than she and yet essentially there's nothing really known about him, just as with Terra. They are both simply characters created for the purpose of being one thing: evil. Why is it okay for Joker to be that way, but not Terra? Because she's just a teenage girl? That shouldn't matter. Just being she is a female teen does not mean that she is incapable of being what the writers intended her and to say that she is incapable of simply being evil because of her age and sex seems a rather closed of stance to take. You said it yourself in that there wasn't much known about her origins, upbringing and the like, but that's just like the Joker as I said, so they are not valid reasons. To me Terra showed readers as well as the characters that you can't always save everyone for one, two) your friends aren't always your FRIENDS, and three) which is the greatest thing she gave to them, is the knowledge that regardless of what they may wish, hope, and think, there are some people out there that are just plain EVIL, not matter their appearences. Tara had no redeeming qualities whatsoever. From the start of everything to the end there was never anything, from her actions to her personality itself, that hinted she could become anything but what she was. She was so far gone, period, that not even Slade counted on it to the full severity and it blew up in his face at the end. But its the fact that she was so set to anarchy, that there was no hope for her, that makes her so special of a character and Judas Contract so powerful. There doesn't need to be some grand explantion, some woeful tale of heartache that makes people feel sorry for her or other stated reason why she turned out the ways she did because what we know of her is enough to understand it. If I remember right, the end of the comic itself stated something very similar to what Alfred said in the Dark Knight: some people just want to watch the world burn and it's not mysogonistic at all. Giving Terra anymore of a reason for why she was takes away the impact her characters has and turns her into a cliche instead of being a part of the few truly memorable group who are evil because they just are. It becomes a "She did but oh see all the hardship she went through. Look at this life and yadadada" because I guarentee that would be the story to explain her actions and it turns a powerful character into a gag of non sense that is already overused. In my eyes, you demean the character by trying to say how justification needs to be given for why she was what she was when the fact of the matter is that some people are just like that. There have been serial killers that have no reason to be what they are yet they are going around taking the lives of others, but because there always HAS to be explanations, HAS to be reason there's some dug up bs mental disorder (even when what the killers have gone through have been shared by others and they did not turn out the same) when the reality of the matter is (and the purpose of what all i'm saying) that they are just evil. Back to Terra's appearence/age, that's another part as I said that makes it so much more potent of a story. The true villain was no longer the one that had grown to be the expected one. At the climax, she took Deathstroke's spot as the real threat and stepped away from the fact that she was only a girl and only 16. Raven and Terra are not double standard. While it is a tired and overused thing and I'm all with you on how Raven has been mistreated as a character, she does have the excuse of being able to be manipulated by Trigon. In the eyes of many readers I'm sure, definately mine, that is why Raven can get away with the evil acts she has committed because it is not truly Raven that is doing them. She is being controled by the influence Trigon has on her and thus not acting on her own accord. Terra on the other hand, does not have that luxery, or anything like it but why should she? It would lessen the effect she had and again as I've have asked, why can't Terra be like the Joker? Terra made an impact on the world because instead of being some evil looking thing like Deathbird or Kormand'r, or some dark but sexually attractive thing like Selene or Emma Frost, she broke the mold of evil woman by being some short, blond bob cut haired, buck toothed girl and then even further stepped up by being such a rude awakening to not only the Titans but to readers as well because of her appearence and then her actions. In fact, I think her greatest accomplishment is that people try to defend her as being a victim of mysogony and sexism instead of accept that she, like the Joker, was without rhyme or reason: EVIL.

Posted by tamaranorbust

Hey AltraCruror, I'm pretty sure we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. All I can say is I accepted the outcome of the JC, but I wrote a very long piece about Terra and what she means on my blog in 2010. It's the only piece on the Web that tries to get to the bottom of Tara Markov http://historiesofthingstocome.blogspot.com/search/label/Terra

For me, the problem is not the character, it's the writer. I certainly don't sympathize with psychopaths! But I was curious about the story and why for me, it did not work. I didn't find it convincing. So when I talk about Terra, I'm trying to understand that. Basically, I think Wolfman is a great comics writer, one of the greatest, but he has some serious flaws in what he does with characters and why, particularly when it comes to Sue-ing some characters and condemning others (again, imo only). Some of his fourth wall decisions are totally convincing to readers; I think from what you said, they've convinced you. I also get the idea that some people are 'just evil' - that this could be a way to explain a comics version of Hitler or a Dahmer for example. But I believe that as a writer, the story was not watertight. And as for 'just evil,' I'm not convinced that evil is that simple. But thanks for stating the opposite argument on this so clearly.


The Joker is so iconic that you cant give him an origin. & if you try, it might work, or you get crap like like the Star Wars prequel. Not everything NEEDS to be explained. Some are awesome because OF the mystery.

But Terra is a prime example of how males are mistreated in not only the sexist comic industry, but the entire entertainment industry being sexist against men. No matter how evil a female character is, she can be redeemed, she is not really responsible for her actions. Look at Baroness in GIJoe. she was brainwashed by the big bad male Cobra Commander. Other than Mystique & Emma, how many comic movies have female villians? & those two are only there because XMen is a team series, so the XWomen need girls to fight.

Terra is evil. She doesnt need to have it revealed why. Her, even Hal Jordan, they should never be redeemed. They are the same as that thing that shot up the Batman movie premire. Evil. Explain why, not to try & redeem them, but to know why monsters exist so that it can be prevented. To me, it is a gross insult to morality to have Terra be a hero in the New52. Lets make the Joker the #1 hero while we are at it. Makes me sick.

So was Raven supposed to be randomly sexing Jason & Arsenal?

Posted by tamaranorbust

I agree about mystery: Raven is a great character because of the mystery around her. If you look at her 90s history, you realize that huge things have happened off panel and they are never explained. It also seems that the Titans either won't admit or talk about what has happened off panel, or she has partly or totally erased their memories. I noticed that 00s fans who read Raven's on panel romances do not understand the character. They have to factor in that off panel stuff, which is usually pretty scary.

Terra being forgiven - well, the point is that she wasn't forgiven. I'm one of a total of maybe two old school fans on the entire web who feel that Terra's story was problematic.

Raven sexing Titans - she has probably had sex, usually when she turns evil, with: Wally, Joseph (maybe), Kory, Dick, Gar. A lot of this is indirectly implied and occurs off panel. You see the aftershocks but almost never the event. I mean: just imagine knowing a totally oversexed and completely repressed girl who could (a) teleport you anywhere (b) change your emotions (c) possibly turn you into a crazy version of yourself (d) let it all hang out off camera (e) pop you right back where you were after erasing your memory of the event (f) while she goes back to being repressed and weird and guilty up in her room. That is what is implied with Raven's ships. On the other hand, she is also a good, sacrificing person, or her original version was.

She had some kind of sympathetic exchange with Jason, but the writers never showed them shipping. Nothing so far with Roy.