Stormcell's forum posts

#1 Posted by Stormcell (1103 posts) - - Show Bio

If Candra gets in a TK assault at the very beginning of the fight, it would force Jean to put all of her concentration into her TK to try and combat Candra. This would leave Jean nothing to spare for a TP attack. Since Candra is a much more powerful telekinetic, she overpowers Jean in this scenario. On the other hand, if Jean gets in a TP attack at the very beginning of the fight, I have not seen Candra go up against a telepath, so I don't know what her TP defenses are.

That said, Candra has also displayed both TP and pyrokinetic abilities, though the upper limits of these abilities have not been defined in canon.

I give the edge to Candra and here's why: of both women cut loose with their powers in the first split second of the battle, Jean dies from Candra's TK abilities. Since Candra is an external, meaning an immortal mutant, she will survive Jean's mindblast and eventually recover from it.

#2 Posted by Stormcell (1103 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormcell said:
@storm_calling said:

@stormcell: That post had nothing to do with what you said about her connection to the biosphere. My point was that the writer felt there was a clear distinction between the way her and Iceman were immune to the cold. I've already stated that she is impervious to the weather when she has a connection to the biosphere;however, it's still protection, and relies on her influence over them for it. That issue(UXM 285) makes it clear as well.

It relies on her connection to the life force of the Earth, not her influence over them. Here's the thing, both her imperviousness to cold AND degree of control over the elements are dependant on her connection to the life force of the planet. (As we both agree on, even if her bond with the life force is fractured, she still has control over the elements, but that control is lessened.) You are attributing her being impervious to cold being relient on both, the connection AND influence over the elements when it only has to do with the former, not the latter.

And she still has resistance, but her immunity is lessened. Both are clearly reliant on her connection to the biosphere, and are both effected when that connection is compromised. I'm not going to debate this in two threads though, so if we're continuing our debate we need to keep this in the thermodynamics thread.

While I agree to restrict our debate on her powers to the other thread, why in the WORLD would I disagree with what you've just said here? This is what I've been trying to get you to see all along. At first, you were trying to say that her immunity is dependant on both her connection to the life force of the Earth AND her influence. I was just trying to get you to drop that second part about the "influence" thing as it has nothing to do with her immunity. Rather, both the immunity and influence/control over the elements are connected to her unity with the life force of her environment. You have FINALLY seen the light! :D Now, if you can word this on your website EXACTLY as you've worded it here, it would be AWESOME! HAHAHAHAHA! I TOLD you round 5 of our debate would have an impact on ya! ;) Now, back to the other thread...

#3 Posted by Stormcell (1103 posts) - - Show Bio

@storm_calling:

1) "If that's your best shot, I better make this short and sweet" does not mean he's telling her, "I'm going to throw this bolt back at you." It simply means that her attack isn't gonna stop him, so he's just telling her that he's going to finish the fight right then and there.

2) We know from the Juggernaut situation that Storm can instantly adjust for the energy surge of a lightning bolt. (Boy am I glad Pak got rid of this whole mess. Its a mess because it doesn't really work as its too complicated and stuff like this is just screaming for PIS instances. This is what happens when you pit Storm against unworthy foes. You have to try and come up with silly weaknesses that don't make sense when taken into account with the rest of her powerset and the way her powers work, thus such weaknesses become indefensible and nullified as PIS.) I don't recall him telling her, "I'm going to make this short and sweet by throwing your lightning back at you." If I were she, that guy is a walking tank. I would think he's probably going to walk over to where I am and deck me, thus making it "short and sweet" that way. Didn't Magneto tell Storm, "I can take all you can dish out and more," before he set up that field which bounced the lightning back at her? This is no different from Juggernaut's "short and sweet" comment. Yet, in the Juggernaut instance, we know that she could have compensated for the lightning if it weren't for her claustrophobia meaning she can do this instantly. In the case of Magneto, she was not hampered physically and/or mentally as she was in the Juggernaut situation, yet she was still hurt by the bolt. Face it, she was written down to prop Magneto up as a big threat since he's nothing compared to Storm if she is given her due.

3) She did not fly out into that raging blizzard when she was in the jet. Sienna did her damage VERY early on in the story when she shot down their plane. That is what created that blizzard that was "too cold" for Storm. (TOTAL PIS!!!!! :::angry emoticon and staring daggers at Lobdell::: ) She was out in the cold from the get go and had no problems. What happened, a severe blizzard swept in and that is what she tried to tame only to get fried out. (PIS PIS PIS PIS...for infinity). In order to dispell that blizzard, she would have had to alter weather over Antarctica. In Uncanny 121, in order to quell that blizzard that threatened Canada, she altered weather over all of North America, which is MUCH larger than Antarctica.

4) I am SO GLAD that you finally admitted that writers sometimes ignore parts of Storm's powers for the sake of telling their stories. This is what I have been harping on ALL ALONG and you've been disagreeing with me. I knew I would FINALLY start to rub off on ya! ;) Now, I am going to apply this thing that you have finally admitted to the Storm vs. Magneto instances. In Uncanny 121, Storm was given the ability to detect energy in the environment as she tracked down Vendicator via the trace amounts of energy his suit left in the atmosphere. That was a power we saw in that one story and didn't see it again for a long, LONG time. The point I was making earlier in our discussion was if Storm had been written with that ability in Uncanny 150, Magneto would not have been able to catch her awares with that bolt as she would have sensed him putting that magnetic field above her head which attracted a bolt from the sky down upon her. So, the point I was making is while CC tried to give Storm a weakness to lightning (outside of her mind and body being weakened as it was in the Juggernaut situation), he also gave her other abilities that nullified the vulnerability he tried to give her, thus he had to ignore some aspects of her powers in order for an unworthy foe like Magneto to have a way to beat her.

#4 Edited by Stormcell (1103 posts) - - Show Bio

@storm_calling said:

@stormcell: That post had nothing to do with what you said about her connection to the biosphere. My point was that the writer felt there was a clear distinction between the way her and Iceman were immune to the cold. I've already stated that she is impervious to the weather when she has a connection to the biosphere;however, it's still protection, and relies on her influence over them for it. That issue(UXM 285) makes it clear as well.

It relies on her connection to the life force of the Earth, not her influence over them. Here's the thing, both her imperviousness to cold AND degree of control over the elements are dependant on her connection to the life force of the planet. (As we both agree on, even if her bond with the life force is fractured, she still has control over the elements, but that control is lessened.) You are attributing her being impervious to cold being relient on both, the connection AND influence over the elements when it only has to do with the former, not the latter.

#5 Posted by Stormcell (1103 posts) - - Show Bio

@storm_calling:

1) When I said if Storm knew the bolt was coming, it would not have hurt her, I was referring to what Uncanny 150 said. I then brought up the PIS in the first fight between Storm and Magneto because she CLEARLY knew the bolt rebounded off that interference field Magneto created and bounced back at her, yet she was still hurt by this. I don't have a problem with the Juggernaut situation since Storm's powers are limited by the strength of her will and body both of which were being negatively affected by that severe claustrophobic attack thus making her vulnerable to the bolt as was clearly established in that situation.

2) Actually, some of the other X-Men believed Storm to be their best weapon against Juggernaut when Colossus, etc failed, IIRC. So, actually, she thought her attack WAS going to be successful. Storm was easily the most powerful X-Man there as Phoenix Force Jean Grey was not present.

3) Storm's temperatures would not have risen instantly to critical when she first left out of the jet in Unlimited issue 1 because she did not fly out into a raging blizzard. Throughout the whole issue, she was able to withstand the ambient cold temperatures of Antarctica, but the blizzard's temperatures was too much for her, according to Lobdell (which is PIS since Claremont CLEARLY did not go with this explanatinon of Ororo's powers as she was flat out immune to the cold. Thus, CC had Storm tank much colder temperatures than an antarctic blizzard with no problems whatsoever).

4) I rag on Lobdell since he was the only writer who ever used that explanation for Ororo's resistance to cold. All other writers before and after had Storm flat out immune to cold and able to withstand any cold temperature as long as she was attuned to the life force of wherever she was located.

5) Sienna's blast did a lot of damage to the EM field which caused the blizzard as a side effect, true, but the blizzard itself was MUCH weaker than what Shaman created and even more weaker than what Deluge did. What was so dangerous about Sienna's teleportation was that it created a hole in the EM field which created a vacuum that would have killed anyone caught up in it. Storm summoned winds strong enough to move herself and her teammates away from the vacuum. Again, the blizzard that hurt Storm was nothing compared to what Shaman and Deluge dished out. Not only that, but the issue cited the reasoning for Storm not being able to dispell the blizzard being she would have had to alter the weather over the entire continent of Antarctica to do so. Lobdell asserted that for all of her power, she cannot alter that much of the Earth's ecosystem. All of this is PIS as there are numerous stories out there showing Storm doing far more than these limits Lobdell tried to place on her in this issue. I have already cited the examples in earlier posts. No weakness Lobdell gave Storm in that one story carries any water and it has clearly been ignored (and rightfully so) by all subsequent writers.

#6 Posted by Stormcell (1103 posts) - - Show Bio

@thunderbolt30 said:

@nipower888 said:

generally storms powers are too diverse to the point where she can easily defeat everyone but super heavy hitters so they have to constantly put limits on her or make her lightning lass. It's the same with thor and Monica Rambeau. Although Storm and Monica seem to get treated the worst. Also I have my black superheros constantly depowered theory but talking about racism and unfair treatment got me banned at cbr

I was wondering what happened. It'll be good to have you back this Friday.

@malachi_munroe said:
Speaking of which, is her bonding time instantaneous? Or does it take time?

It has varied. In classic uncanny when she used solar wind for the first time she didn't require any bonding time. In her first mini with Ellis she did need time to get attuned to the planet but could still manipulate the wind to protect her. She also needed time to attune to the planet in another instance when she and her gold team where pulled into another dimension with Piotr's brother Mikhail. And on another trip to a Shi'ar ruled planet she was still able manipulate the wind to hold up a falling balcony but stated that because she was not yet attuned to the planet the elements were resisting her.

Yes, I forgot to mention this instance in my debate with Stormcell. This was the issue(UXM #285) that had Storm affected by the desert heat from the other world before she mastered it, correct? This was under the same writer that had her state that she had protection from the cold and Iceman was impervious to it(UXM #282). So this would indicate that it was more than just wording(as I assumed).... I'll add scans to the section showing this whenever we get the chance to update all the scans in the main post. I might actually decide to tackle that today.

I have always stated that if Storm is not attuned with a planet's life force, then she can be harmed by the elements there. However, once she is attuned, she is immune to climate and (weather-related) temperature variation. She becomes innately impervious to cold in this instance, though she can be harmed by non-weather related heat like fire (which doesn't make sense since she can harmlessly channel lightning which is MUCH hotter than fire, but oh, well...).

#7 Posted by Stormcell (1103 posts) - - Show Bio

Candra wins. I doubt Invisible Woman can get through Candra's force field and while Candra may not be able to break through Sue's either, Candra does have telepathy. She took over Cyclops's mind in X-Men #61. She can attack Sue's mind telepathically through her force field.

#8 Edited by Stormcell (1103 posts) - - Show Bio

@storm_calling:

AHHHH!!! You came back before I could edit my post one final time to include my conclusion, so I will do so here:

In summary, using the explanation CC has presented to us in canon for Storm being harmed/not being harmed by lightning goes as follows: As you have noted, when Storm calls lightning down upon herself, she is not harmed by it (when her bond with the Earth is fully formed...if fractured, she can be harmed by the lightning as her powers start to act sporadically and unpredictably). Going strictly by the explanation given in canon (which is the only explanation we can use), this is the case because when she calls it down upon herself, she knows its coming, thus her body can make that instantaneous compensation for the energy surge. (Again, we know its an instantaneous process because when Juggernaut hurled her bolt back at her, she knew it was coming back at her and said that she was too weak to resist, not that there wasn't enough time to do so.)

When she is hurt by lightning in the event its being hurled back at her, assuming that she is at full strength in mind and body, it hurts only because the bolt has caught her by surprise thus robbing her body of the opportunity it requires to make that instantaneous adjustment. Okay, this is fair. (She does not have to exert control over the lightning to not be harmed by it as this explanation you posit has never been offered in canon. If it ever is in the future, it will be PIS.) Problem is, CC has given Storm all of these other extra-sensory abilities to perceive the universe as patterns of energy and forces, detect energy and movement in her environment, sense all natural phenomena before they come into being, etc that it makes this weakness he tried to give her unfeasible. Hence, when he tries to apply this weakness to Storm, it collides with other powers he gave her that would negate this. Thus, this requires many of her extra-sensory abilities to be ignored for the sake of these instances of the stories which is the definition of PIS.

Essentially, trying to hurt a fully powered Storm in top form with cold, lightning, etc is simply bad writing because she has too much going on in her powerset to make this realistic. It shows that the threat level she's being pitted up against is not a realistic danger to her, hence she's has to be written down. Magneto should not be fighting characters like Storm or Phoenix Force wielding telekinetics. Storm should not be pitted against other elementals unless they control something like gravity or earth (though an earth elemental would be sorry to pit against Ororo since she tends to stick to the air in battle striking out with her powers from a distance thus neutralizing the effectiveness of their powers against her.)

I also thought of something else regarding the Storm/Iceman cold thing. Perhaps there is a distinction between Ororo and Iceman regarding their imperviousness to cold. Let me explain. If you put Iceman on a brand new planet, for instance, he will instantly be immune to the cold there. Storm, on the other hand, will not be immune to the cold until she has formed a bond with the life force of that new world. When her bond is fully formed, Storm cannot be harmed by the cold. The Lobdell issue has no credence. There are too many stories before and after the Lobdell crap that shows Storm not being hurt by cold at any degree. She is not harmed by cold from other elementals either. So, yes, Storm is impervious to cold, but that depends on her bond with the life force of the whatever planet or dimension she's inhabiting. It has nothing to do with control. You cannot provide any scans for the control thing either. Even if you could, it would be PIS since she does not wrest control of Iceman's powers to be impervious to his cold.

#9 Edited by Stormcell (1103 posts) - - Show Bio

@storm_calling:

You:

Again, we don't know the process with how her body "compensates" to energy surges, let alone how long it takes, considering at that point we'd only seen her control lightning that was under her command or from her own mutant metabolism. There is nothing that conflicts with that, because nothing was ever stated that claimed she only had to "know" in order for her to be immune. She has to "know" and then "compensate" before she would be immune. She was caught by surprise in both those instances, because she didn't know her lightning would be used against her until it was too late, thus no time to "compensate".

Me:

We know from the Juggernaut instance that Storm can compensate pretty much instantaneously. When Juggernaut hurled her bolt back at her, she knew it was coming and said that she was too weak to resist it. As we know, she was weak in will and body because of the claustrophobic attack and her powers are limited by the strength of her will and body. She did not say, "There is no time for me to compensate for this attack," only that, "I am too weak to resist." In other words, had she been whole in mind and body, the bolt would not have affected her. This makes the Magneto instance which came later PIS. She knew that bolt was coming back at her, yet it still hurt her.

Regarding the Arcade instance, what CC established in Uncanny 150 to try and explain away how she had been hurt by lightning in the past despite being immune to it in other stances would have worked save he gave her that power to detect energy in her environment in Uncanny 121. This means she should have been able to detect that electrical field surrounding the room she was in for the Arcade story arc.

So, this was CC's mindset: For the sake of giving Magneto a way to win against Ororo (something Magneto cannot do against a fully powered Storm without PIS, CIS, WIS), he had Storm being hurt by lightning in that story and gave no explanation of how it was feasible in that instance. (For the record, when Juggernaut hurled the lightning back at Storm, the issue clearly establishes that it would not have hurt her had she been at full strength in mind and body. This is despite the fact she was not exercising control over the bolt.) Same thing happened in the Arcade issue and then finally CC tried to come up with an explanation in Uncanny 150 that did not work for either of the instances where Storm was hurt by lightning after the Juggernaut thing.

You:

Why would she go into a raging blizzard if she ALREADY knew the blizzard was going to raise her temperature that high? That makes no sense. I take it as her explaining that her lack of control and overexertion of trying gain control of the blizzard is what resulted in her body temperature rising in order to protect her from the cold. The blizzard was caused by essentially a mass disruption within the elemental, psionic and electromagnetic energy systems(which Xavier notes in the issues), and a direct result of Sienna Blaze's attack. I don't even think that happened in the instance with Shaman's storm or the one with Deluge. Point being, it wasn't natural and she couldn't muster any control over it(stated on panel), thus she had no reason to be immune to it unless she made a conscious effort.

Me:

That's just it, though. She did NOT know that blizzard would raise her temperature that high and nothing in the canon established she did. In other words, she overestimated her abilities according to this issue (again, this is Plot Induced Stupidity (PIS) and Writer Induced Stupidity (WIS) and Character Induced Stupidity (CIS)). What Lobdell did in this story was intentionally have Storm overestimate her powers on this aspect while behaving irrationally out of frustration so that she would fail in order to put limits on her powers that she had long ago far exceeded. It was not only with this event of her flying into a blizzard that was too much for her system to withstand (and she has withstood much colder temperatures that this), but he showed her overestimating her abilities when she tried to alter weather over the entire continent of Antarctica and failed (we have seen Storm alter weather over North America and Africa, both of which are much larger continents than Antarctica, she has controlled hemisphere-sized hurricanes, controlled the elements globally and on a cosmic scale as well...so, this limitation Lobdell placed on Storm was again PIS). You are working from the presumption that Lobdell is an intelligent writer, which is giving him far too much credit. All Lobdell did here was have Storm act stupidly to place limits on her powers that previous and subsequent canon have debunked.

You:

And despite me considering the fact that her lack of control may indeed be PIS(since she has handled more powerful storms, but have not had to deal with an electromagnetic rupture of that caliber on Earth), I do still think her body does need to adjust to environments and attacks out of her control before she can be immune to them. Also, this wouldn't explain why Xavier would have needed to psionically and manually lower her temperature for her after Cyclops had removed her from the cold. She would have simply went back to normal after Cyclops moved her back into the jet.

Me:

Xavier brought her temperature down by manipulating her biorhythm. When your body heats up, your bodily functions accelerate. All Xavier did was go into her mind to slow down her biological functions to get them back to normal.

Again, there is no canon that states Storm has to be in control of an element to not be harmed by it and plenty of canon that proves to the contrary. You can try and disagree with those Iceman instances all you want, but they do establish that Storm was not harmed by his cold despite the fact she was not exercising any control over it. Likewise, in the Juggernaut story, Storm was harmed by the lightning, not because she was not controlling it, but because her will and body were weakened by the claustrophobic attack preventing her body from being able to compensate for the energy surge. Finally, in Uncanny 150, Storm was hurt by the lightning in that instance, not because she was not in control of the bolt, but because the bolt caught her by surprise thus robbing her body of the opportunity to compensate for the energy surge.

The way she was caught by surprise by the lightning bolt in Uncanny 150 was PIS, by the way. Going by Uncanny 117, she can sense all natural phenomena before they happen meaning she should have been able to sense that lightning bolt before it struck. Going by Uncanny 121 where she tracked Vendicator by feeling the energy signature of his suite in the atmosphere, she should have been able to feel the magnetic field Magneto formed over her head to attract the bolt from the sky. Over the years, writers have beefed up Storm's extra-sensory abilities to incredible levels making it virtually impossible to catch her by surprise with environmental elemental manipulations without simply disregarding those abilities for the sake of the story.

Regarding that scan where Storm says "her elemental powers will protect her" while saying "Iceman is impervious to the cold," you are trying to use that to propose a difference between the two, right? I disagree with you. First off, CC did not write that, so it doesn't give any insight into CC's take on Storm's powers. That was after his run was done and then Lobdell did his crap in Unlimited issue 1. CC's Storm was impervious to cold. She was only harmed by the cold in one instance during his run outside of the time when her bond with the Earth was fractured and that is when she was all of a sudden thrust out into deep space. Either she was not attuned to that environment (which means the cold would have affected her like it did in Uncanny 168 when her bond with the Earth was fractured) or it was a simple one-time PIS instance. Other than that, Storm has always been portrayed as being impervious to cold whether it be Iceman generating it, her walking into a cold climate or when she channels a blizzard through her own body.

Even still, that writer may have still felt that Storm was impervious to cold the same as Iceman and simply chose to express this in a different way for the sake of good writing to avoid wording the same thing twice the same way.

#10 Edited by Stormcell (1103 posts) - - Show Bio

You:

As for her being knocked out into space. No. I'm not considering it PIS. It's canon and relevant to my argument. Also, wearing a space suit in UXM #99(that can withstand the force of solar winds) is not the same as essentially floating around naked in space. It is specifically designed to protect her from the cold for a limited period, and I would hardly call that "deep space", considering they were still within orbit of the space station. She was far deeper in space when Deathbird kicked her out there.

Me:

I was referring to the McDuffie run on Fantastic Four when Storm was a member of the team where Ororo flew through space without a pressure suit on or anything save her costume and some armband thingies that fed oxygen into her system so she could breathe in deeps space. She was in deep space in this instance.

You:

He NEVER said she "only" needed to sense it in order to be immune to it. Magneto simply said he caught her by surprise, thus she was unable to "compensate". That's two very different things and doesn't conflict with what was established before.

Me:

It does conflict with what was established before. Her body compensates for the energy surge if she knows its coming. This is what Uncanny 150 shows. In their first fight, Storm knew the bolts were coming back at her, yet they still hurt her.

You:

No, he tried to establish that her loss of control of the blizzard is what resulted in her temperature rising to temperatures that dangerously exceeding her limits. If her body is negating the effects of the blizzard, then her body temperature doesn't need to rise above normal levels for her to be comfortable in it. This was clearly an issue of control , as right before she caused an electrical surge it said she could not hope to control the blizzard.

Me:

This is not the case. Storm explained very plainly in that story that her body temperature rises and falls in relation to the temperature of her environment. The story went on to establish that in the middle of a raging blizzard, the temperatures were so dangerously low that her system fried itself as a result of its temperature rising too high. This has nothing to do with control whatsoever and its total PIS since her powers have never worked like that prior to this issue nor has any writer afterwards gone by this crap Lobdell wrote. She has withstood temperatures far colder than being in the center of a raging blizzard with no problems whatsoever.

You:

Storm's energy sight was not established in that issue, and didn't come until later(not to mention this is a conscious effort, not automatic). It also said the energy field had to be higher than hers, not higher than what she can put out at the max, which she clearly wasn't in that case. She just channeled up some lightning from her mutant metabolism to create a random attack;. Her being surprised by the hit before she could "compensate" seems plausible to me within that context.

Me:

Storm's energy sight was established in Uncanny 121. That said, if she was not aware of that electrical field around the room which would deflect her bolt back at her, then, yes, I could possibly see her being caught by surprise with this. Perhaps CC had not developed her energy sight and ability to detect energy in the area to the extent where she would have been aware of that energy field at this point. However, this does not explain away the first time she and Magneto had a fight. She knew the interference field was there and knew the bolts were going to be deflected off that field back at her, yet she was still hurt.

What he did with Jean with the retcon, he did with Storm as well with the Uncanny 150 thing. There were far too many instances of Storm calling lightning down upon herself and not getting hurt by it (it doesn't matter if she calls down a bolt or someone else calls down that same bolt on her, if it doesn't hurt her, it doesn't hurt her. She does not have to "regulate" the bolt so it doesn't hurt her. No issue has stated this. You tacked that on, not canon) meaning she's able to not only generate lightning within her own body, but also absorb it from external sources and then two instances of her lightning being deflected back upon her and hurting her without any explanation as to why. What CC did in Uncanny 150 was seek to come up with an explanation that would solve all of this same as he did with the Jean/Magneto thing. So far, the explanation of Uncanny 150 and the Juggernaut instance can explain how Storm was hurt by lightning with Beldame (she was interfering with Storm's powers by messing with her body which could very plausibly prevent Storm's body from compensating for the energy surge), I am not sure her energy sight and awareness had developed to the point where she'd be able to detect the electrical field surrounding the room she was trapped in for the Arcade arc, so I can give you that. However, the first time she and Magneto fought, there is no excuse for that. Its pure PIS how she was hurt by lightning since she clearly knew those bolts were coming back upon her.

What I would like to point out here is in both the Storm and PF Jean Grey case, where the PIS stuff starts that CC has to later on think of a way to go back and come up with an explanation, the point of origin is a Magneto story. The first time Storm was hurt by a lightning bolt, that was during the Juggernaut arc. CC gave an explanation for that right there on the spot. Storm's claustrophobic attack weakened her will and body to where she could not resist the bolt. Her powers are limited to the strength of her will and body. In the Storm and Jean vs. Magneto case, no explanation was offered whatsoever as to why PF Jean was weakened or how Storm was weakened to where she was hurt by the lightning until many issues later. In both cases, the explanations don't quite work. It doesn't work for Jean because if that were truly the case from the beginning, why would she have been written out of the stories till Proteus? For Storm, it doesn't work because she knew of the interference field and knew the bolts would come back at her.

You:

You're tacking on again. Magneto said she was caught by surprise, he NEVER said that was the only way she could be hurt by lightning. He was manipulating her hurricane, so if she would have sensed him do so before he surprised her, she most likely would have "compensated". The fact that she has to "compensate", which isn't any real description of a mechanic(and can be open to interpretation), further indicates that she has to do something in return to not be harmed by it. It is not simply a case where she has to know it's coming and she's automatically immune. That was never said on panel and there are too many instances, including her knowing it was coming that prove otherwise. YOU came to that conclusion on your own, and it is incorrect!

Me:

First off, Magneto never manipulated Storm's hurricane. That's beyond his power. He merely warped EM fields to create a charge above Ororo which would attract a bolt from the sky over her head. This works because lightning is attracted to magnetism. Secondly, I'm not tacking on anything. To be fair, you're the one who's tacking on. No issue, for instance, states that Ororo has to be exercising any level of control over the elements to not be harmed by them. I know you don't want to discuss the Iceman thing, but the fact is she did not wrest control of his cold powers to not be harmed by them. His cold powers were also dangerous enough that the other X-Men had to move away from his vicinity to avoid getting hurt. Storm not only stayed in the vicinity, she literally carried him while his body was generating that intense cold. You came to the conclusion that Storm has to exercise a degree of control over an element to not be harmed because she's been hurt when her lightning has been deflected back upon her.

Moving forward, I never claimed that the only way she can be hurt by lightning is if she is caught by surprise. I go only with what canon has stated. Canon has given explanations of when she can be hurt: 1) If her bond with the Earth is fractured. 2) If her will or body is weakened. An example of this would be when Juggernaut threw her bolt back at her while she undergoing a severe claustrophobic attack. She was too weak to resist the bolt and it knocked her out. 3) If she is caught by surprise by a lightning bolt thus robbing her body the opportunity to compensate for the energy surge. (By the way, her body compensating for the energy surge does not mean she is taking control of the bolt as those are two different things entirely. Magneto did not say, "The bolt was out of Storm's control when it struck her, therefore, it was able to hurt her." What he said was, "The bolt caught her off guard, thus her body could not compensate for the sudden energy surge..." ). If Storm is hurt by a lightning bolt outside of these conditions without an explanation given that does not contradict canon that makes her more powerful, then it is PIS. We cannot, as readers, offer our own explanations as to why she was hurt in those instances. When Storm is hurt by lightning, it has nothing to do with her not being in control over it since no canon has stated that she has to be in control of lightning (or any element) to not be directly harmed by it. This is something YOU came up with to try and explain a very few circumstances where she was harmed by lightning, not the book itself.

You:

Does it really matter if it happened afterwards? It's canon and has been retconned! Also, that panel doesn't mention anything about Firelord, so your example doesn't count here either. It could have simply been that her psychic limits weren't placed within her mind until after she faced Firelord.

Me:

You missed my point. What I was establishing was how much more powerful PF Jean was when she fought Firelord compared to when she battled Magneto. I also find it VERY peculiar that her power levels all of a sudden took a dip for that Magneto arc and that Magneto arc only. The retcon that came later doesn't change the fact that CC has a habit of writing characters unevenly according to the needs of the story. It just so happens in this case with PF Jean/Magneto, he later on decided to address that particular situation. It clearly was not his intent at the time he wrote the Magneto arc to have Jean with psychic inhibitors on her Phoenix Force powers. Hence, he left PF Jean out of all the subsequent X-Men fights up until Proteus came along as his powers could match PF Jean's without devaluing her. A Xavier-level psi, which is what PF Jean was when she fought Magneto, is not too powerful to where she can't fight the other x-villains. Heck, Storm was more powerful than PF Jean in that Magneto story. If it were really psychic inhibitors from the get-go with Magneto (again, notice how even in the retcon, it start with the Magneto fight), there would have been no reason to leave Jean out of the subsequent stories until Proteus came about.

So why am I going into all of this? To give you (and others following this discussion) insight into CC's writing style. Again, CC has no problems writing a character down/unevenly according to the needs of a particular story.

You:

Also, Lobdell did have her channel lightning through her body, and enter the arctic circle without ANY ill effects. So I think my claim has more credence than yours.

Me:

Show me the panel in Unlimited issue 1 where it says Storm fried her system by flying into that blizzard because she could not control said blizzard? There is no such panel. The issue gave a very clear explanation as to why Storm was hurt by the blizzard which I have typed above. The fact that Lobdell has Storm channel lightning through her body without freezing, yet says the blizzard was cold enough for Storm to fry her system by exposing herself to it just goes to show what a hack writer he is as this makes no sense. Lightning is much hotter than the blizzard was cold.

Also, it was not just flying into Antarctica that was too much for Storm's system to handle in that story, it was the blizzard.

Again, control had nothing to do with this. The issue never stated this.

Edit:

I recant what I said about the Storm/Arcade thing. I recant because Storm was able to track down Vindicator in Uncanny 121 by sensing his energy signature in the air and following its trail. The issue established that it was a very faint trail at that. If she could do that, then there is no way she should have missed that powerful and concentrated electrical field surrounding the room in which she was imprisoned. This power was written out for the sake of the Arcade story as well as her ability to not be harmed by lightning. CC came back later with an explanation in Uncanny 150 that could fix the problem in the Arcade story, but falls flat on its face because it doesn't explain away this other instance about Storm being able to detect energy in her environment which would have alerted her to the existence of that electrical field in the Arcade issue.

Lets just face it, pitting Storm against other elementals is just bad business. Most elemental characters have no real way to hurt her with their powers, thus you get this kind of a convoluted circus we get with Storm vs. Magneto.