Why Danielle Moonstar needs to lighten the hell up

Anyone else sick of seeing Moonstar run around like a total badass? Seriously, anyone?....No?
Too bad. I, for one, am reeeeally, really tired of Danielle Moonstar. Sure, you could argue that it's not fair that I complain about being sick of her, having gone out of my way to read series she's involved in, but that's coincidental; I just happened to begin my foray into reading comics with the original run of New Mutants, and it seems like whenever a series involves Illyana Rasputin for any length of time, Moonstar ends up in it as well. At any rate, I do have reasons for announcing my distaste, and not all of them can be blamed on bad writing. Well, at least not on one case of bad writing.

Danielle Moonstar started off as a complete ethnic stereotype. On the first three pages of her comic debut, she ends up not only cursing the 'white man', but is seen cuddling with a goddamn cougar for absolutely no real reason. A COUGAR. As of my knowledge, that still hasn't been explained. You don't show a character snuggling up to a ferocious wild beast without proper goddamn explanations! Also, this may be legitimately due to her apparently all-consuming need to constantly express her sense of cultural identity, but throughout the run of New Mutants, Moonstar wore a dress like...twice. Not really a good point, until you consider that the New Mutants went to freaking galas on a regular basis, and the only time I can recall seeing Dani in a dress is when she got kidnapped by Viper (It was a really nice dress, actually). What did she wear to the fancy dress parties? What appeared to be deerskin pantsuits. Ethnically appropriate pantsuits, at any rate. It's not that she didn't like dresses; the young woman made her love for dresses known on at least two occasions.

During the second run of the New Mutants title (later re-named New X-men), Danielle became a teacher at Xavier's. My immediate response to that concept was wondering exactly what she taught, but that's both beside the point and never revealed. It's in this series that Dani displays a fairly worrying lack of self-control and actually ends up causing Necrosha. When trying to recruit Elixir, Dani and her 'team' (then consisting of Wither, Wallflower and Sofia Mantega, if memory serves) end up facing off against a group of Reavers in New York. Wither gets 'carried away' and ends up (almost?) killing one of the attacking Reavers, and Dani, after having made the minimum required effort, decides that the only way she can stop Kevin from killing his assailant is to show him his greatest fear. It turns out that Kevin's greatest fear was accidentally killing everyone he loved (via touch), and Dani's illusion turns him into a sobbing wreck. Throughout the rest of his storyline, Wither is haunted by this vision. At any rate, he apologizes to Dani (in the middle of breaking down into tears) for losing control of himself, and all she can think to do is tell him to 'put his damn gloves on', actually throwing them at his feet in the process. Wither is now effectively cut off from the one person who is supposed to look after him, to mentor him, because she decided to scare the crap out of him instead of, say, distracting him with an image of his greatest desire (that's how her powers work). Later, after Elixir gets in trouble for snapping Magma out of a coma (which led to her fleeing in confusion), Dani yells at him before even attempting to hear anything he has to say ('Amara was like family to me, and now she's gone! GET OUT OF MY SIGHT!').

And then she loses her powers. I have to admit, I was hoping she'd disappear from the series after that, but noooo. She just got guns and did that whole Valkyrie thing again. Good lord, I hated the Valkyrie thing. So now we get to watch her run around like some half-assed rambo-esque action chick? All I can say is wake me when it's over.

37 Comments
37 Comments
Posted by PrinceIMC

I think it just goes to show Dani isn't a good teacher. She's used to leading a team of peers, running a team of teenagers that look up to her she couldn't handle. Thankfully she's back with the New Mutants again.

Posted by Kairan1979

Let's face it - the way she lashed at Hope in Second Coming isn't a sign of a good teacher again. I suspect I am not the only reader who enjoyed Hope beating her.

Edited by xerox_kitty

Dani is a victim of writers.  Over the years she's been handled without care, that it shows.


Chris Claremont created her as a nature loving, white man hating, cougar cuddling Cheyenne for all of about 5 minutes.  She hated white man because she blamed them for the death of her family.  She loved wild animals because of her mutation, which gave her a psychic connection to animals.  Pretty much all PiS reasons to justify a stereotype.  But she soon went on to be the focus of the New Mutants.  In the first issue we saw her own fear about going into the Danger Room, and soon after she took on the Brood Queen that was hiding inside Xavier's body.  Unfortunately, around that time she also became the most likely of all Marvel's characters to be knocked unconscious & kidnapped.  The Brood Queen did it, Silver Samurai & the Viper did it and Selene later did it too.  She was pretty easy to take down as long as you sneak up behind her & knock her across the back of the head.  Pretty simple writing.  Pretty clichéd.  That sot of easy take down hasn't happened in years.

'Fancy' Dress?     
I honestly don't agree with the accusation that she rarely wears dresses.  So what?  I rarely wear dresses, it's nothing to do with ethnic heritage (I just don't want to wear them).  If she was drawn wearing a little Pocahontas animal-skin dress, that would be a lot worse.  And we already know what her idea of a 'fancy dress' outfit would be.  Way back in New Mutants #7 she quickly latched on to the carnival spirit of Rio.

Too Much Too Young?     
In fact, very early on, Dani was turned into something of a barely-legal sex siren.  Any excuse to strip off and show off as much flesh as possible.  She was never afraid to show off her curves.  She was only out-stripped by Storm (who really DID used to bare all).  When in Rio she was happy to wear bikinis.  When hunting through the jungle she pulled her clothes off to go swimming.  

Even when Selene held Dani hostage & offered to teach her sorcery that would keep her youthful for eternity, Selene saw fit to have Dani stripped and redressed in something more skimpy... as you do when trying to corrupt the youth of today.

While Rahne was still dreaming of wearing 1950's Princess style dresses, Dani Moonstar was all set to show the world that a Native American girl could be a modern sex symbol.

Back to her days as a teacher, I thought it was a nice & honest progression of her character.  Although she didn't seem to teach anything, she was usually a good mentor for the kids and helped introduce them to a more stable environment; the Institute.  There they weren't persecuted on a daily basis & would learn to use their powers like all the other X-Men had done.  She wasn't a perfect role model by any means, and she clearly still had an irrational temper on her... but who doesn't?  No-one can remain calm all the time.  

Dani had to use her powers against Wither to stop him from killing a person.  It was just a dumb plot piece to collect Elixir while turning Wither over to the Hellions Squad.  The claim that she caused Necrosha is completely unjustified.  Going that far back in history to one over-reaction doesn't mean she caused the events of Necrosha.  It was hardly a contributing factor to why Wither ran away from the school.  Back then he had already left the New Mutants Squad to join the Hellions.  If anything Wither was a pawn in Emma Frost's game of keeping more students than Dani had in her Squad.  But no-one can blame Dani Moonstar for Selene's actions during Necrosha.  Selene and the events in Kyle & Yost's X-Force (Eli Bard & the transmode virus) & New X-Men were the driving forces behind Necrosha.  Dani had been chased out of the school long before those wheels were put into motion.  If you want to blame Dani, then I'm afraid you should go further back & blame Professor X for ever assembling a group of young mutants to teach.  

Her over-reaction to Elixir wasn't well written, but people do react stupidly when under pressure.  Combine the fact that Elixir had specifically done what he was told not to with the fact that she was afraid for the life of one of her oldest friends, then it doesn't make her a complete monster for shouting at him.  It means she lost her temper, which was out of character for the general way she was being portrayed at the time.  But no-one in the world is 100% calm all of the time.

 Previous Example Of Stupid Character 'Development'
This is the same character we saw turn up in the Avengers Initiative to help Trauma cope with his fear based powers.   She successfully managed to calm Trauma, and coached him towards a career in therapy.  So for every silly moment, she still had another success.  

At this point in life she's been a mutant, an orphan, saved her parents from the Demon Bear, become a Valkyrie, left Earth to edeem herself after Hela corrupted the Valkyrior in an attempt to kill Odin, fallen from Asgard, secretly become an agent of SHIELD, infiltrated the MLF, lived with X-Force on the road, gained reality altering mystical powers... and eventually lost her powers.  Not to mention the amount of changes that her powers had gone through.  So it's fair to say that has matured a LOT since her first appearance on a mountainside, cuddling wild cats & cursing the name of Xavier.  It's also fair to say that different writers have different ideas for her... and most of them have been ludicrous.

It's only in more recent years that writers have turned against that maturity and retconned her back into an angry young Native American (something that writers also keep doing to Warpath).  When he took on the writer chores for the newest New Mutants series, Zeb Wells stated that he didn't like the 'teacher' aspect of her character.  He felt it was out of character for her, and therefore chose to completely ignore it.  Therefore we ended up with someone who keeps talking with her fists.  Matt Fraction furthered that with the stupid cafeteria rumble between her & Hope.  Why on Earth should Dani suddenly resort to punching first?  Why would Dani even care about Hope that much to hate her & hit her?  It's all just bad writing.
Moderator
Posted by Kairan1979

Why on Earth should Dani suddenly resort to punching first?

Maybe she forgot that she is not a Valkyrie anymore, who knows?

Why would Dani even care about Hope that much to hate her & hit her?

New Mutants were hurt in previous chapters of Second Coming (Shan losing her leg, Magik sent to Limbo - again) and Dani blamed Cable and Hope.
Posted by RightScar

I agree with Xerox.

Posted by xerox_kitty
@Kairan1979 said:
"

Why would Dani even care about Hope that much to hate her & hit her?

New Mutants were hurt in previous chapters of Second Coming (Shan losing her leg, Magik sent to Limbo - again) and Dani blamed Cable and Hope. "
The whole of Second Coming was a travesty.  However, there's no reason that Dani should blame Cable or Hope when it was Cyclops who sent them on the mission.  It was a badly written Matt Fraction scene.  
Moderator
Posted by SC
@xerox-kitty said:
" The whole of Second Coming was a tralalalala I can't hear you (not edited by Matt Fraction).  However, there's no reason that Dani should blame Cable or Hope when it was greatest leader, god king, savior and excellence of awesomeness who sent them on the mission, thus rendering blame to no one. "

I fixed your statement, also I took the liberty to answer your own statement with my edit. I had to retcon out the part about Fraction though. *SC strikes a hipster pose* Not cool to playa hate on Fraction. He's like all funky and shizz. Totally happening. He like wears jeggings and drinks coffee they have trouble spelling in italy. 



Oh, I liked all of your blogs  @Squares, I am a big fan actually, here though, this was the only thread I really strongly disagreed with. X-K mainly covers why. Your argument is well made though, and stated. Hopefully one day Dani might grow on you? I mean she probably won't but hey lol
Moderator
Edited by Squares
@xerox-kitty:  Well put! Thanks for pointing out Dani's willingness to wear revealing clothing, I'd forgotten about that. And that whole cafeteria brawl thing was a really, really stupid scene! I can't really see any good reason for her to behave like that.
@xerox-kitty said:
" @Kairan1979 said:
"

Why would Dani even care about Hope that much to hate her & hit her?

New Mutants were hurt in previous chapters of Second Coming (Shan losing her leg, Magik sent to Limbo - again) and Dani blamed Cable and Hope. "
The whole of Second Coming was a travesty.  However, there's no reason that Dani should blame Cable or Hope when it was Cyclops who sent them on the mission.  It was a badly written Matt Fraction scene.   "
I didn't mind some parts of Second Coming, but it was pretty sloppy in terms of writing.
@SC said:
" @xerox-kitty said:
" The whole of Second Coming was a tralalalala I can't hear you (not edited by Matt Fraction).  However, there's no reason that Dani should blame Cable or Hope when it was greatest leader, god king, savior and excellence of awesomeness who sent them on the mission, thus rendering blame to no one. "

I fixed your statement, also I took the liberty to answer your own statement with my edit. I had to retcon out the part about Fraction though. *SC strikes a hipster pose* Not cool to playa hate on Fraction. He's like all funky and shizz. Totally happening. He like wears jeggings and drinks coffee they have trouble spelling in italy. 



Oh, I liked all of your blogs  @Squares, I am a big fan actually, here though, this was the only thread I really strongly disagreed with. X-K mainly covers why. Your argument is well made though, and stated. Hopefully one day Dani might grow on you? I mean she probably won't but hey lol
"
That's hardly a fair reason to defend a writer's work. I mean, look at Alan Moore- he looks like Rasputin, and yet he's hailed as an amazing writer. Though, in all fairness, Fraction has one hell of a cool last name.
...I have fans? Dude! You totally just made my day! Thank you!
Who knows, I may grow to like her someday. It's completely possible.
Posted by xgirl

i´m realy sorry but i love dani and i like it when she is badas
Posted by Squares
@xgirl: You don't have to apologize for liking her. And what's a 'badas'?
Posted by xgirl
@Squares:
sorry i mean badass
Posted by Vance Astro

What?

Moderator
Posted by Squares
@Vance Astro: Context, please?
Posted by KDarkholme

I think Dani needs to get laid.
Posted by CellphoneGirl
@Squares said:
but is seen cuddling with a goddamn cougar for absolutely no real reason. A COUGAR. As of my knowledge, that still hasn't been explained. You don't show a character snuggling up to a ferocious wild beast without proper goddamn explanations! 
ROFLMFAO!
Posted by The Umbra Sorcerer
@Squares said:

, but is seen cuddling with a goddamn cougar for absolutely no real reason. A COUGAR. As of my knowledge, that still hasn't been explained. You don't show a character snuggling up to a ferocious wild beast without proper goddamn explanations!   


That can be explained she is a member if a tribe (name escapes me) that can communicate with animals. So she could/can talk to that animal
Posted by SC
@Squares said:
That's hardly a fair reason to defend a writer's work. I mean, look at Alan Moore- he looks like Rasputin, and yet he's hailed as an amazing writer. Though, in all fairness, Fraction has one hell of a cool last name....I have fans? Dude! You totally just made my day! Thank you!Who knows, I may grow to like her someday. It's completely possible.
 
 
Oh haha, I was just joking. The poster I quoted probably knew as well, since they are one of the only other people who is as critical of the writer (Fraction) as me.  
 
No probs! I have low standards, anyone who creates a blog and or thread and has over two paragraphs I am usually a fan of... (then again, you;d be surprised how many people start a blog just to tell us hello or that their favorite X-Man is Batman?!?!)
Moderator
Posted by Timandm
@Kairan1979: Nope, you're not the only one who enjoyed seeing Hope beat on Dani... LOL
Posted by Timandm
@Squares: I've never really cared for her character much.  I didn't hate her, I just didn't find her that interesting.  As for her being an ethnic stereo type, you have to remember she was introduced in 1982.  Comic book writers were HORRID at representing characters with 'other than white' ethnicity...  Think about how horribly bad Luke Cage was written back then.  They even had him wearing a TIARA!?!?!?!?  (Maybe that was supposed to be his bling?)
 
About the, 'lying with a cougar' thing...um.. I got nuthin.  LOL!!!!  But who doesn't love laying around with a man-easting beast every now and then?
 
What I AM getting sick of seeing, is super-heroes with NO SUPER POWERS...  Dani Moonstar, Nomad, Spider-girl...  no super strength...no super speed...no invulnerability...no bullet proof armor...no telepathy....no healing factor...  Spider Girl is all of 16, with NO powers, and she's good enough at acrobatics and fighting (after a few months of training) to fight super-villains with super powers?  REALLY?!?!?!  Now, I admit I think Batman is one of the greatest comic book super heroes of all times EVER... But he's more than a 16 year old kid with a few months of training.  
1: He's a Genius.  (literally)
2:He's a master of several forms of martial arts.
3: He wears body armor.
4: He's a Detective on a level near or equal to Sherlocke Holmes.
5: He's filthy stinking rich so he can afford 'all those wonderful toys' with which to fight crime.
6: He has a butler!!!!  It really helps to have an Alfred or a Jarvis to clean your uniforms and apartment if you're busy fighting crime.
 
I do like the Batman, no powers, type of heroes, but it seems Marvel is just inundating the universe with no-power super heroes who have not all that much extraordinary about them.
 
 Now, back to Dani.  I would like to say, to her credit, she is one of the few female super heroes that wears clothes when she fights...  That does make her unique!
Posted by Squares
@The Umbra Sorcerer: She is Cheyenne, like Forge, who has no animal-communication abilities.
@KDarkholme said:
I think Dani needs to get laid.
Hoping we don't have to see it...
@SC: Batman would be an awesome addition to the X-men, although I have a feeling Deadpool would feel totally ripped off. Poor guy keeps trying to join...
@Timandm: Luke Cage looked fantastic in a tiara. Dani was kept around after she lost her powers because she'd been in the series for a long time by that point (over a decade), and was an established fan (and writer) favourite. Am I the only one who imagines Claremont would throw a fit if they cut her out of the franchise? She does, quite predictably, conform to one of the stereotypes of powerless super heroes- the pseudo bad-ass/gun girl/'seasoned veteran'. I would, however, much like to see this whole trend of fighting with clothing on to continue....
Posted by Timandm
@xerox-kitty said:
Dani is a victim of writers.  Over the years she's been handled without care, that it shows.

Chris Claremont created her as a nature loving, white man hating, cougar cuddling Cheyenne for all of about 5 minutes.  She hated white man because she blamed them for the death of her family.  She loved wild animals because of her mutation, which gave her a psychic connection to animals.  Pretty much all PiS reasons to justify a stereotype.  But she soon went on to be the focus of the New Mutants.  In the first issue we saw her own fear about going into the Danger Room, and soon after she took on the Brood Queen that was hiding inside Xavier's body.  Unfortunately, around that time she also became the most likely of all Marvel's characters to be knocked unconscious & kidnapped.  The Brood Queen did it, Silver Samurai & the Viper did it and Selene later did it too.  She was pretty easy to take down as long as you sneak up behind her & knock her across the back of the head.  Pretty simple writing.  Pretty clichéd.  That sot of easy take down hasn't happened in years.

'Fancy' Dress?     
I honestly don't agree with the accusation that she rarely wears dresses.  So what?  I rarely wear dresses, it's nothing to do with ethnic heritage (I just don't want to wear them).  If she was drawn wearing a little Pocahontas animal-skin dress, that would be a lot worse.  And we already know what her idea of a 'fancy dress' outfit would be.  Way back in New Mutants #7 she quickly latched on to the carnival spirit of Rio.

Too Much Too Young?     
In fact, very early on, Dani was turned into something of a barely-legal sex siren.  Any excuse to strip off and show off as much flesh as possible.  She was never afraid to show off her curves.  She was only out-stripped by Storm (who really DID used to bare all).  When in Rio she was happy to wear bikinis.  When hunting through the jungle she pulled her clothes off to go swimming.  

Even when Selene held Dani hostage & offered to teach her sorcery that would keep her youthful for eternity, Selene saw fit to have Dani stripped and redressed in something more skimpy... as you do when trying to corrupt the youth of today.

While Rahne was still dreaming of wearing 1950's Princess style dresses, Dani Moonstar was all set to show the world that a Native American girl could be a modern sex symbol.

Back to her days as a teacher, I thought it was a nice & honest progression of her character.  Although she didn't seem to teach anything, she was usually a good mentor for the kids and helped introduce them to a more stable environment; the Institute.  There they weren't persecuted on a daily basis & would learn to use their powers like all the other X-Men had done.  She wasn't a perfect role model by any means, and she clearly still had an irrational temper on her... but who doesn't?  No-one can remain calm all the time.  

Dani had to use her powers against Wither to stop him from killing a person.  It was just a dumb plot piece to collect Elixir while turning Wither over to the Hellions Squad.  The claim that she caused Necrosha is completely unjustified.  Going that far back in history to one over-reaction doesn't mean she caused the events of Necrosha.  It was hardly a contributing factor to why Wither ran away from the school.  Back then he had already left the New Mutants Squad to join the Hellions.  If anything Wither was a pawn in Emma Frost's game of keeping more students than Dani had in her Squad.  But no-one can blame Dani Moonstar for Selene's actions during Necrosha.  Selene and the events in Kyle & Yost's X-Force (Eli Bard & the transmode virus) & New X-Men were the driving forces behind Necrosha.  Dani had been chased out of the school long before those wheels were put into motion.  If you want to blame Dani, then I'm afraid you should go further back & blame Professor X for ever assembling a group of young mutants to teach.  

Her over-reaction to Elixir wasn't well written, but people do react stupidly when under pressure.  Combine the fact that Elixir had specifically done what he was told not to with the fact that she was afraid for the life of one of her oldest friends, then it doesn't make her a complete monster for shouting at him.  It means she lost her temper, which was out of character for the general way she was being portrayed at the time.  But no-one in the world is 100% calm all of the time.

 Previous Example Of Stupid Character 'Development'
This is the same character we saw turn up in the Avengers Initiative to help Trauma cope with his fear based powers.   She successfully managed to calm Trauma, and coached him towards a career in therapy.  So for every silly moment, she still had another success.  

At this point in life she's been a mutant, an orphan, saved her parents from the Demon Bear, become a Valkyrie, left Earth to edeem herself after Hela corrupted the Valkyrior in an attempt to kill Odin, fallen from Asgard, secretly become an agent of SHIELD, infiltrated the MLF, lived with X-Force on the road, gained reality altering mystical powers... and eventually lost her powers.  Not to mention the amount of changes that her powers had gone through.  So it's fair to say that has matured a LOT since her first appearance on a mountainside, cuddling wild cats & cursing the name of Xavier.  It's also fair to say that different writers have different ideas for her... and most of them have been ludicrous.

It's only in more recent years that writers have turned against that maturity and retconned her back into an angry young Native American (something that writers also keep doing to Warpath).  When he took on the writer chores for the newest New Mutants series, Zeb Wells stated that he didn't like the 'teacher' aspect of her character.  He felt it was out of character for her, and therefore chose to completely ignore it.  Therefore we ended up with someone who keeps talking with her fists.  Matt Fraction furthered that with the stupid cafeteria rumble between her & Hope.  Why on Earth should Dani suddenly resort to punching first?  Why would Dani even care about Hope that much to hate her & hit her?  It's all just bad writing.
Somehow, I didn't notice this post the first time I read this thread. (or at least thought I read it.)  This is actually said quite well, and gets to the point...  Completely agree.  I think you're smack-dab on with, "It's all just bad writing."
Posted by Timandm
@Squares:
-  It's true she has no animal communication skills, yet she has a certain 'empathy' for/with them.  I think it's as if she can 'feel' their thoughts.  That's why she has a connection to Raine when she's in wolf form...  Raine, another 'not at all' angry character.
 
- Yes, Dani probably does need to get laid... (don't we all?) and yes we most definitely don't want to see it... it would just be wrong... Like seeing Liza Minelli kiss her husband at their wedding.  Sure they were SUPPOSED to kiss, but...ewww...
 
- I think Deadpool is technically an X-Man now... I don't think X-Men actually 'accepted' him per se, but he just keeps coming around.  I have to admit, I loved the scene in the Necrosha arc where he's saving Loa from some Selene-resurrected bad guys.  It's an EXCELLENT scene; a very deadpool scene.  It certainly gives the impression that Cyclops accepts Deadpool if for no other reason than he can't seem to keep him away.
 
- " Luke Cage looked fantastic in a tiara."  ummm...okaaaay... LOL!!!  Perhaps Dani could sort of spearhead the whole "Femme super heroes who wear clothes" thing... So, if the writers would kindly give her some powers (they bring back the dead as easily as turning the page, they can definitely give her powers), and maybe let her have a real personality, it could work out.
Posted by Squares
@Timandm:  
@Timandm said:
@Squares:
-  It's true she has no animal communication skills, yet she has a certain 'empathy' for/with them.  I think it's as if she can 'feel' their thoughts.  That's why she has a connection to Raine when she's in wolf form...  Raine, another 'not at all' angry character.
 
- Yes, Dani probably does need to get laid... (don't we all?) and yes we most definitely don't want to see it... it would just be wrong... Like seeing Liza Minelli kiss her husband at their wedding.  Sure they were SUPPOSED to kiss, but...ewww...
 
- I think Deadpool is technically an X-Man now... I don't think X-Men actually 'accepted' him per se, but he just keeps coming around.  I have to admit, I loved the scene in the Necrosha arc where he's saving Loa from some Selene-resurrected bad guys.  It's an EXCELLENT scene; a very deadpool scene.  It certainly gives the impression that Cyclops accepts Deadpool if for no other reason than he can't seem to keep him away.
 
- " Luke Cage looked fantastic in a tiara."  ummm...okaaaay... LOL!!!  Perhaps Dani could sort of spearhead the whole "Femme super heroes who wear clothes" thing... So, if the writers would kindly give her some powers (they bring back the dead as easily as turning the page, they can definitely give her powers), and maybe let her have a real personality, it could work out.
- That's kind of splitting hairs. It still doesn't make much sense for her to posses those abilities, and even if it did, shouldn't she have mentioned them a little more often? They'd be kinda useful in the right situation.
- Ugh, her and Sam...
- Well, he *is* a member of X-force, so you have a point. And Deadpool is a very handy guy to have around, not to mention he seems like a lot of fun.
- That was a bit of a joke. And I don't know if Dani could be classified as 'femme'. Or am I thinking of the wrong terminology?
Posted by Timandm
@Squares: LOL!!! Dude!!!!
 
- No, it doesn't make sense that she arbitrarily has some sort of connection to animals.  My guess is that, earlier, the writers wanted to make some sort of shaman out of her...  (I guess the job was given to Elizabeth Twoyongman...well, first her dad, THEN her.)
 
- Um.. yeah... her and sam... And it appears the writers are going to stick with it...  Well, at least she's past her, "I hate white men" phase.
 
- He DEFINITELY brings fun to the table where the X-Men are concerned.  I nearly fell out of my chair laughing when he dawned Marvel Girl's uniform.
 
-Yes, I realized you were joking....  and I think I used the word 'femme' wrong.  I only meant it as 'female' which does apply to Dani.
Posted by PhoenixoftheTides

I am just ready for her to have her original powers back albeit at a more developed level (perhaps even have them evolve into full-fledged telepathy and animal empathy). I agree that the Valkyrie stuff should be dropped. It's already been pointed out that her animal empathy has existed since early on in her development, since it helped her forge a bond with Rahne, so I won't get into that.

Posted by WarMachineMarkV

1 - If you take any comic character and look at one or a handful of situations in which the writer makes them look as bad as possible, you could make the same statement

2 - At least she seems to take the situation and problems the X-Men are in seriously and does not wander around acting blissfully unaware like 95% of the cast.

3 - The character has also been the unfortunate victim of a decade or so of neglect and terrible attempts at reinvention.

Posted by Squares

@PhoenixoftheTides: She was more of a user of illusions than a telepath. Couldn't read minds or anything, her illusions kinda seemed to react on their own.

They mention the animal empathy thing on the first page she ever appears in anywhere.

@WarMachineMarkV: Blissfully unaware of what?

Posted by WarMachineMarkV

- Blissfully unaware of how desperate the situation is on Utopia, for all the attacks and uncertainty, most characters just go about their days

Posted by Squares

@WarMachineMarkV: They're coping. Doing it pretty well, actually. I doubt that anyone on that goddamn rock didn't know exactly how dangerous their everyday life was, but what do you expect them to do? Not everyone can pull a Cyclops and be nigh-constantly on guard.

Posted by PhoenixoftheTides

@Squares said:

@PhoenixoftheTides: She was more of a user of illusions than a telepath. Couldn't read minds or anything, her illusions kinda seemed to react on their own.

They mention the animal empathy thing on the first page she ever appears in anywhere.

@WarMachineMarkV: Blissfully unaware of what?

Yes, but her powers are related to telepathy. Emma had been working with Karma to develop the underlying telepathy that is surely at the root of her powers. I just want Mirage to become a character with a regular powerset and personality versus the schizo she currently is.

Posted by Squares

@PhoenixoftheTides: You know who else has powers relating to telepathy? Hellion. And Hope, and Pixie.

...'Regular' powerset? What, exactly, is that? And while I'm not saying she's without problems, Dani doesn't really display enough symptoms to be labelled a schizophrenic.

Posted by PhoenixoftheTides

@Squares: Her original power set was animal empathy, the ability to trigger the illusion of people's greatest fear or their greatest desire and eventually the ability to create psychic arrows that she could fire using a bow. She is a schizo as in she seems very volatile and unstable. The running theme was that anyone with powers related to telepathy or psychic manipulation had the potential to be a telepath and a telekinetic. Emma and Charles have both displayed a latent telekinetic ability at different times, so it seems that all psychics ultimately have the same underlying powerset and it's training and development that determines if they ever fully develop it. This is why Emma was working with Karma, and Mirage/Moonstar basically confirmed this, because her own powers eventually could be focused into the above-referenced psychic arrow that functions more like a mindblast than her original powerset.

Edited by Squares

@PhoenixoftheTides: What about Pixie? You neglected to mention her.

Out of curiosity, exactly how familiar are you with the world of Psychology? For your benefit, I have included Wikipedia's introductory description of schizophrenia:

Schizophrenia is a mental disorder characterized by a disintegration of thought processes and of emotional responsiveness. It most commonly manifests itself as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking, and it is accompanied by significant social or occupational dysfunction. The onset of symptoms typically occurs in young adulthood, with a global lifetime prevalence of about 0.3–0.7%. Diagnosis is based on observed behavior and the patient's reported experiences.

Genetics, early environment, neurobiology, and psychological and social processes appear to be important contributory factors; some recreational and prescription drugs appear to cause or worsen symptoms. Current research is focused on the role of neurobiology, although no single isolated organic cause has been found. The many possible combinations of symptoms have triggered debate about whether the diagnosis represents a single disorder or a number of discrete syndromes. Despite the etymology of the term from the Greek roots skhizein (σχίζειν, "to split") and phrēn, phren- (φρήν, φρεν-; "mind"), schizophrenia does not imply a "split mind" and it is not the same as dissociative identity disorder—also known as "multiple personality disorder" or "split personality"—a condition with which it is often confused in public perception.

The disorder is thought mainly to affect cognition, but it also usually contributes to chronic problems with behavior and emotion. People with schizophrenia are likely to have additional (comorbid) conditions, including major depression and anxiety disorders; the lifetime occurrence of substance abuse is almost 50%. Social problems, such as long-term unemployment, poverty and homelessness, are common. The average life expectancy of people with the disorder is 12 to 15 years less than those without, the result of increased physical health problems and a higher suicide rate (about 5%).

She doesn't seem very volatile OR unstable- at least, not mentally. In terms of the New Mutants, the people you should be looking to for mental issues would be Doug, Illyana or Rahne, I believe. Nope, Dani's pretty mentally healthy. If she does have issues, they're relating to controlling her temper and dealing with authority figures, but she's displayed on a few occasions that she's improving on the first, and the second hasn't been an issue for a while.

@PhoenixoftheTides said:

@Squares: The running theme was that anyone with powers related to telepathy or psychic manipulation had the potential to be a telepath and a telekinetic.

Running theme where? If you'll once again refer to the characters I mentioned (Hellion, Hope and Pixie), it's never been stated anywhere that Hellion could possess any telepathic abilities whatsoever, and that includes alternate reality versions of him. Also, it's been said that within the Marvel universe telekinetic mutants are incredibly rare (I think I recall someone mentioning something like one in about a million?), and powerful ones even moreso. Also, if it's true that telepaths tend to be telekinetics, then what about Chamber? He's never displayed any telekinetic potential.

Edited by PhoenixoftheTides

@Squares said:

@PhoenixoftheTides: What about Pixie? You neglected to mention her.

Out of curiosity, exactly how familiar are you with the world of Psychology? For your benefit, I have included Wikipedia's introductory description of schizophrenia:

Schizophrenia is a mental disorder characterized by a disintegration of thought processes and of emotional responsiveness. It most commonly manifests itself as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking, and it is accompanied by significant social or occupational dysfunction. The onset of symptoms typically occurs in young adulthood, with a global lifetime prevalence of about 0.3–0.7%. Diagnosis is based on observed behavior and the patient's reported experiences.

Genetics, early environment, neurobiology, and psychological and social processes appear to be important contributory factors; some recreational and prescription drugs appear to cause or worsen symptoms. Current research is focused on the role of neurobiology, although no single isolated organic cause has been found. The many possible combinations of symptoms have triggered debate about whether the diagnosis represents a single disorder or a number of discrete syndromes. Despite the etymology of the term from the Greek roots skhizein (σχίζειν, "to split") and phrēn, phren- (φρήν, φρεν-; "mind"), schizophrenia does not imply a "split mind" and it is not the same as dissociative identity disorder—also known as "multiple personality disorder" or "split personality"—a condition with which it is often confused in public perception.

The disorder is thought mainly to affect cognition, but it also usually contributes to chronic problems with behavior and emotion. People with schizophrenia are likely to have additional (comorbid) conditions, including major depression and anxiety disorders; the lifetime occurrence of substance abuse is almost 50%. Social problems, such as long-term unemployment, poverty and homelessness, are common. The average life expectancy of people with the disorder is 12 to 15 years less than those without, the result of increased physical health problems and a higher suicide rate (about 5%).

She doesn't seem very volatile OR unstable- at least, not mentally. In terms of the New Mutants, the people you should be looking to for mental issues would be Doug, Illyana or Rahne, I believe. Nope, Dani's pretty mentally healthy. If she does have issues, they're relating to controlling her temper and dealing with authority figures, but she's displayed on a few occasions that she's improving on the first, and the second hasn't been an issue for a while.

@PhoenixoftheTides said:

@Squares: The running theme was that anyone with powers related to telepathy or psychic manipulation had the potential to be a telepath and a telekinetic.

Running theme where? If you'll once again refer to the characters I mentioned (Hellion, Hope and Pixie), it's never been stated anywhere that Hellion could possess any telepathic abilities whatsoever, and that includes alternate reality versions of him. Also, it's been said that within the Marvel universe telekinetic mutants are incredibly rare (I think I recall someone mentioning something like one in about a million?), and powerful ones even moreso. Also, if it's true that telepaths tend to be telekinetics, then what about Chamber? He's never displayed any telekinetic potential.

Yep, I'm intimately familiar with Psychology - that was my minor. I'm familiar enough with it to know that we shouldn't bother trying to analyze the comic characters using it, because let's face it, most of the heroes and villains look mentally unbalanced if you try to analyse them! Anyway, I meant the use of the term 'schizo' to indicate that this is less of a personality defect and more to do with my impression that writers do not know what to do with her powers or personality-wise. Basically, I would like to see Dani be stable again. Yeah, she's improving but that wasn't my point. I'm tired of writers just giving her problems for her to be angsty to and would rather she just have a stable personality. I'm not denying anyone else on her team is better off than she is - honestly, I don't like her current character progression, so if you do, we'll just have to A.T.D. here.

RE: Psychic powers: If you look at the first appearance of Bishop, for example, Jean Grey was able to possess Emma's body and use telekinesis because the underlying potential was there, even though Emma doesn't have that power - if you recall, Jean had been shot and incapacitated, so she wasn't accessing her powers via her body, she was manipulating Emma's body and was still able to levitate and etc. It can be surmised that because Jean was so used to TK, that she was able to use whatever underlying power Emma had. Emma herself has commented that TP and TK seemed to be closely related - it was often the case that when a psychic was possessed by the Phoenix, they started to display TK, because apparently, the Phoenix amplified a latent potential. Jean is noteworthy because she has fully developed TK and TP naturally. Chamber would be in the same position as Karma or Mirage - he has powers related to telepathy, so it can be inferred that with the right kind of training, he could learn to unlock full telepathic abilities and potentially access TK. I wouldn't use Hope as an example because her powers are related more to mimicry. Hellion and Pixie are too new, so we haven't really seen them fully developed, yet. By far Jean is the best example: she manifested telepathy first, and it was after Prof. X placed telepathic safeguards into her mind that she began to display and develop full TK. Later on, we actually see prolonged periods during which only one or the other power was active for entire storylines - this is a good example of how you could have a latent power that lies undeveloped for a variety of reasons. Anyway, this is why psychics in the Marvel U tend to have both TP and TK. Mutants often demonstrate either one or the other, both or have a power related to either/or that may develop into full fledged power with the right training and etc. During the original New Mutants run, Emma was able to train Empath because his powers were related to TP; she commented at one point that he'd be ablet to do more than influence emotions in the future, implying that he would develop more TP-related powers. Mirage is a good example, as well - her original illusion power is a telepathy-related effect, similar to Mastermind's. The initial analyses were that she would be able to develop until a full fledged illusionist with training. But in addition to this she manifested the aforementioned other TP-related power - animal empathy (which Jean also had, and was able to communicate with dolphins using it - she's one of the few with TP strong enough to do that). Just because you don't demonstrate a power when you first manifest your superhuman powers doesn't mean that you can't gain more powers as you mature. This is one of the theories that other Marvel scientists have commented on. But I can't find scans or anything because these are mostly mentioned in the infodump panels and not in the panels that are often scanned - it would be next to impossible for me to find many of these on the internet or in my comic collection.

Anyway, I wouldn't take any mention of rarity of a super power seriously - the X-Men, for example, are formed of a very rare minority of mutants whose powers are strong enough or useful enough to be taken seriously. There are thousands of other worthless or tertiary mutations that we saw when they opened their school up.

Posted by Squares

@PhoenixoftheTides: Depression does NOT equal Schizophrenia. You know how many people Dani's age deal with depression these days? It's like one in ten, at least.

No, it CANNOT be inferred. It has NEVER been stated EVER, ANYWHERE, by ANYONE, that Chamber's powers are in ANY way related to TK. How about M- are you going to start saying SHE has TK too?

Edited by PhoenixoftheTides

@Squares said:

@PhoenixoftheTides: Depression does NOT equal Schizophrenia. You know how many people Dani's age deal with depression these days? It's like one in ten, at least.

No, it CANNOT be inferred. It has NEVER been stated EVER, ANYWHERE, by ANYONE, that Chamber's powers are in ANY way related to TK. How about M- are you going to start saying SHE has TK too?

Didn't say that. Obviously you didn't read the edited version after I thought through what I was trying to convey. And typing in all caps is an indication that you need to lighten up, too. Anyway, have a good weekend.

Posted by Squares

@PhoenixoftheTides:

Chamber would be in the same position as Karma or Mirage - he has powers related to telepathy, so it can be inferred that with the right kind of training, he could learn to unlock full telepathic abilities and potentially access TK.