spidey 15

@SuperBeasty: Welcome to the Vine. That was a really well written post!

@laflux: Well, usually we use the characters at the time the thread was made. Obviously when i made it, spidey didn't have his new tech. Also if i would allow to use the more recent version of him, it wouldn't be a really fair fight at all.

:)

Spider-man. Spider-sense doesn't make his reflexes faster, it's just a warning system. Then it's up to his own reflexes if he can dodge the projectiles that are aimed to him. If i had just the spider-sense without super human reaction time, it doesn't mean i could dodge bullets after they were fired, like spidey has accomplished with his own reflexes. So in other words, spidey's reflexes( with or without spider-sense ) are proven to be slightly above Logan's.

@XImpossibruX said:

Spiderman with spidey sense can dodge bullets, but since he doesn't have that i give it to Wolverine.

Wolverine is a formidable martial artist with over a century of fighting under his belt, while Spiderman only has "way of the spider" technique.

Wolverine would have martial arts reflexes, and fighting speed and without Spidey Sense for Peter, Wolverine is faster.

Spider-sense is irrelevant to spidey's own speed. See my above post to see what i mean.

:)

@k4tzm4n said:

Slott + Stegman =

This!

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@spidey 15:

I'm not saying he'd 'ignore' Hawkeye necessarily. I'm saying the fact he's bloodlusted coupled with the fact he would, first and foremost, have Wolverine up in his face to deal with, should leave space for Hawkeye to get the shot he needs.

A bloodlusted Spidey is most certainly not stupid, but in rage he would not be able to resist taking it to Logan when Wolverine is coming at him claws out. That, and I'm not sure Wolverine would give him the choice. It should at the least buy Hawkeye the second he needs really.

Point is, being bloodlusted will probably make him less pensive / cautious and far more direct. That and Spider-Man has three other top tier heroes to contend with before just 'marching over' and taking out Hawkeye.

I understand your point and it's pretty good, but how i see it, is that spidey at his best, has almost reached the level of what if spidey( you know, the famous one). He has a few feats that make his spider-sense look like a future sense and not just an instinct that warns him of danger. I believe there is a possibility that even though he will be facing Logan( i do believe it's the most possible thing to happen as much as you ), his spider-sense can still let him realize what trap he'll fell for and not just by his spider-sense but by his knowledge of Hawkeye's arsenal as well.

But i have some questions. Couldn't just spidey react properly enough and jump some distances before the sonic arrow wears him down way too much or couldn't just web it to low the sonics or throw it back with his webbing? I see many possibilities that could happen to counter that attack in any case he wouldn't manage to put out Clint fast enough.

:)

@Super_SoldierXII: I'm not sure how does that actually work. For example in Grim Hunt( spidey was at his most bloodlusted ) but he seemed to be working with a strategy taking each one out and not all together. At least that's how i saw it. Also spidey doesn't fight unknown opponents. He knows all of them amazingly well since they are teammates and he knows what anyone could do to him. If he really wants to kill them, he has to fight smart and not let them take the edge over him. So it's only logical to go for the deciding factor( Hawkeye ) first. I seriously don't think spidey is that stupid when it comes to battle, to ignore Hawkeye.

:)

@Owie said:

@spidey 15 said:

@Owie said:

@spidey 15 said:

@Owie: DD as you said has beaten a spidey that couldn't think clear. An enraged but clear minded spidey would be something like he was against Kingpin in BIB or against the Kraven family in Grim Hunt.

Actually i believe spidey could take it. Most of those guys are irrelevant against a bloodlusted spidey except for Logan. So it will basically end in spidey against Logan, which in these kind of conditions, spidey should take it.

:)

Well, DD has beaten him a few times, really. I tend to think bloodlust is overrated. All of these guys have fought numerous skilled metahumans and won in the past. Wolverine has beaten Spidey in the past. I just don't see Spidey taking it with all of them combined.

The prob though is that you take the fights out of context. DD has never really beaten spidey, at the very best he humiliated him. Spidey also has beaten DD even at the worst conditions( no spidey sense ). It's just that we take logic over some showings that are forced to happen as they did in order to keep the reader interested. Spidey has plenty ability feats that puts him above from the team he fights. So just because some fights needed to happen as they did in order to be even, it doesn't mean they can be used to say that this person can beat the other. Also Logan has never beaten spidey under normal conditions and vice versa. So since most of their fights, can't prove who is the actual winner, we take the abilities and feats of each one and we decide.

As for bloodlusted, i doubt it's overrated. Spidey's serious moments have proven to us that it's not overrated.

:)

I certainly agree that while Spidey has lost to some these guys individually, he has also won against them individually. But deciding whether a particular fight is or is not legit, or is or is not PIS, becomes a hopeless mire. I just think it's funny because over on another thread I'm on, everyone is arguing about the primacy of feats and the unimportance of logic, while here feats are discounted and logic is given more emphasis. The inconsistency of comics feats is equivalent to the inconsistency of the application of the rules of debate! :)

(I am actually a bigger fan of logic than feats myself.)

But I'm really not basing my feeling that the team will will so much on their individual feats vs Spidey, as much as I base it on their feats against other characters. They're all used to fighting super-fast, super strong dudes. Plus, while Spidey is fast, his webs don't travel any faster than any other projectile, so Cap, Wolvie, and DD can dodge them fairly well. They're all more skilled than him, by a long shot, even taking Spidey Fu into account, and Spidey isn't always at his best when fighting more-skilled opponents. They have better tactical ability, and they have prep in this battle, which Cap can certainly use well. Since they are arriving after Spidey, Hawkeye can shoot from a distance and doesn't have to worry about getting up close. He could shoot a sonic arrow, which isn't dodgable, then the others could pile on afterwards. And they obviously have the advantage of numbers and multiple kinds of attacks (I won't bring up Spidey's fights with the Enforcers here!). Cap's shield can take a Spidey punch. Wolverine's healing factor and bones can take a Spidey punch. And according to the OP, Spidey wins by killing the team, which just isn't going to happen with Wolverine, who got continuously blasted by Cyclops from a foot away and kept fighting.

Don't get me wrong, an unleashed Spidey is a tough cookie, I just see the team as more effective.

I think it's stupid to ignore logic at some points. Yes, spider-man got powers instead of dying for example, and we count it as a valid event. That kind of logic is forced to be accepted, but that doesn't mean i have to ignore every stupid thing because it's a comic. There is a reason why normal humans( civilians ) in comics are just like us. Because writers, as much as they base their stories in fantasy, they still write about a world just like ours. Have we ever seen a civilian suddenly flying for no reason, without an extraordinary even causing it? It's sci-fi, yes, but that doesn't mean stupidity should be over logic.

My point is, yes, the team constantly fights super humans, but the writers make it as much believable as possible. Cap and Logan are skilled low level super humans, so there is some kind of logic behind it. DD is peak human( in our world apart from theories, i don't think we have anyone achieving that kind of level, so writers just make their own theory of a peak human, an giving him the feats that are needed to make him impressive ), so still he has extraordinary feats, but not the point that are stupid and beyond logic. DD is not just a normal civilian walking in the streets and suddenly dodging bullets from a thief in a dark corner(lol).

So, DD, Cap etc... fight super humans and dodge bullets. At some point it makes sense, due to the specialty of their physical ability and technical knowledge, but we don't see them fight guys like Silver Surfer or Hulk and we take it as valid feats. Most of their opponents would be either just super strong, or just super durable, or just super fast. That gives them some kind of advantage due to great skills and reflexes( allowing them to counter the superior strength or durability of their opponents ).

Now to the fight. Spidey as the superiority in speed, strength, agility and of course the sixth sense that allows him to tell what his opponents would do and react to that properly. That power alone, can be the most challenging power the team has ever faced, because when it is combined with spidey's physical advantages, it would be almost impossible to hit him(as his serious moments has proven ), let alone beat him. As for webbing, yeah, it's not that fast, but spidey has proven he can use his spider-sense to tag them( just like he did when he fought DD in SHadowland). I don't believe Hawkeye or DD would be much of a help here( Spidey has been a really hard target for Hawkeye before, as he has proven in an issue of the untold tales of spider-man ), and yes a sonic arrow would be a deciding factor, but i don't think spidey would hesitate to take him out first, when he knows what Hawkeye can do. As for the rest, in these kind of conditions, neither cap nor DD can be proven much of a challenge against a bloodlusted Pete in close combat. As for Logan, i thought that was a mistake from the OP, because i see no way how it could be a fair fight, if spidey has to kill'em all.

I don't doubt that the team can win with a good use of teamwork, but i just see a skilled, bloodlusted spidey, being too much for a team with most members not being durable enough to take his hits,

:)

@god_spawn: HA! LMAO!!! :P

@Owie said:

@spidey 15 said:

@Owie: DD as you said has beaten a spidey that couldn't think clear. An enraged but clear minded spidey would be something like he was against Kingpin in BIB or against the Kraven family in Grim Hunt.

Actually i believe spidey could take it. Most of those guys are irrelevant against a bloodlusted spidey except for Logan. So it will basically end in spidey against Logan, which in these kind of conditions, spidey should take it.

:)

Well, DD has beaten him a few times, really. I tend to think bloodlust is overrated. All of these guys have fought numerous skilled metahumans and won in the past. Wolverine has beaten Spidey in the past. I just don't see Spidey taking it with all of them combined.

The prob though is that you take the fights out of context. DD has never really beaten spidey, at the very best he humiliated him. Spidey also has beaten DD even at the worst conditions( no spidey sense ). It's just that we take logic over some showings that are forced to happen as they did in order to keep the reader interested. Spidey has plenty ability feats that puts him above from the team he fights. So just because some fights needed to happen as they did in order to be even, it doesn't mean they can be used to say that this person can beat the other. Also Logan has never beaten spidey under normal conditions and vice versa. So since most of their fights, can't prove who is the actual winner, we take the abilities and feats of each one and we decide.

As for bloodlusted, i doubt it's overrated. Spidey's serious moments have proven to us that it's not overrated.

:)

@Owie: DD as you said has beaten a spidey that couldn't think clear. An enraged but clear minded spidey would be something like he was against Kingpin in BIB or against the Kraven family in Grim Hunt.

Actually i believe spidey could take it. Most of those guys are irrelevant against a bloodlusted spidey except for Logan. So it will basically end in spidey against Logan, which in these kind of conditions, spidey should take it.

:)

David is amazing but Stegman's style fits, spidey a lot more. So it's Stegman!