"@geraldthesloth said:

" @Undergroundgod said:

" @Neon_Nemesis said:

"Probably, I would feel more comfortable following Scott then Bruce "

I would follow Bruce, I would tell Scott to shut his stupid bitch mouth. 60 years of comic books and all. He is a dumb jock, and gets his teams almost killed all the time. Let me ask you something how manny X-Men have lost their lives over the years under Scotts command?  Do you know how manny have lost their lives under Dick?  Bruce has lost a dumb ass side kick, but he has never lost anyone in a team setting. "

Give me an instance of Cyclops losing a team member under his control that wasn't Jean Grey controlled by the Phoenix, Bruce Wayne created plans to stop his team members if something ever happened to them, the fact someone makes plans to defeat you behind your back isn't enough proof to show he isn't a worthy leader? "

It's not the planning that shows his capability (or lack of capability) as a leader, it's the general scope of those plans. I'm sure throughout the years Cyclops worried that some of the X-Men or students were potentially bad apples, and prepared for the worst possible scenario. But Batman became paranoid as hell after he realized that his memory got wiped, and saw the entire tree as possibly rotten. Batman couldn't be a leader then because he didn't trust anyone, and you definitely can't build or lead a team if you doubt them at every step.   "

" @CosmicSpiral said:

"@geraldthesloth said:

" @Undergroundgod said:

" @Neon_Nemesis said:

"Probably, I would feel more comfortable following Scott then Bruce "

I would follow Bruce, I would tell Scott to shut his stupid bitch mouth. 60 years of comic books and all. He is a dumb jock, and gets his teams almost killed all the time. Let me ask you something how manny X-Men have lost their lives over the years under Scotts command?  Do you know how manny have lost their lives under Dick?  Bruce has lost a dumb ass side kick, but he has never lost anyone in a team setting. "

Give me an instance of Cyclops losing a team member under his control that wasn't Jean Grey controlled by the Phoenix, Bruce Wayne created plans to stop his team members if something ever happened to them, the fact someone makes plans to defeat you behind your back isn't enough proof to show he isn't a worthy leader? "

It's not the planning that shows his capability (or lack of capability) as a leader, it's the general scope of those plans. I'm sure throughout the years Cyclops worried that some of the X-Men or students were potentially bad apples, and prepared for the worst possible scenario. But Batman became paranoid as hell after he realized that his memory got wiped, and saw the entire tree as possibly rotten. Batman couldn't be a leader then because he didn't trust anyone, and you definitely can't build or lead a team if you doubt them at every step.   "

And what makes you think Scott would not think something was wrong, if he found out his memory was wiped? "

" @Undergroundgod: So having a plan to kill your teammates and them finding out is an instance of being a good leader? good one.  I know there has, I acknowledged it in my earlier post, plenty of people have wanted to lead the X-men as a whole at times. "

" @Undergroundgod said:

" @CosmicSpiral said:

"@geraldthesloth said:

" @Undergroundgod said:

" @Neon_Nemesis said:

"Probably, I would feel more comfortable following Scott then Bruce "

I would follow Bruce, I would tell Scott to shut his stupid bitch mouth. 60 years of comic books and all. He is a dumb jock, and gets his teams almost killed all the time. Let me ask you something how manny X-Men have lost their lives over the years under Scotts command?  Do you know how manny have lost their lives under Dick?  Bruce has lost a dumb ass side kick, but he has never lost anyone in a team setting. "

Give me an instance of Cyclops losing a team member under his control that wasn't Jean Grey controlled by the Phoenix, Bruce Wayne created plans to stop his team members if something ever happened to them, the fact someone makes plans to defeat you behind your back isn't enough proof to show he isn't a worthy leader? "

It's not the planning that shows his capability (or lack of capability) as a leader, it's the general scope of those plans. I'm sure throughout the years Cyclops worried that some of the X-Men or students were potentially bad apples, and prepared for the worst possible scenario. But Batman became paranoid as hell after he realized that his memory got wiped, and saw the entire tree as possibly rotten. Batman couldn't be a leader then because he didn't trust anyone, and you definitely can't build or lead a team if you doubt them at every step.   "

And what makes you think Scott would not think something was wrong, if he found out his memory was wiped? "

There's a difference between losing your trust in the people who conspired in that erasure, and applying it to every single metahuman on the planet. It was Zatanna and Hawkman and Barry Allen who were complicit, not Superman and Wonder Woman and Wally West and Alan Scott and the Great Ten and every other person who's "dangerous".  "

" Cyclops has lead the X-men for sixty years (real world time) and is currently leading an entire species. I think he takes this. "

Bats is not a leader.  A tacticion par excellance, he thinks of scenarios from every possible angle.  I would venture so far as to say that he is far more then the "worlds greatest detective" but is portrayed as THE MAN with a plan in DC.  That being said, tactics and the ability to run scenarios with a profound efficency is not soley what characterieses a good leader.  He is a master strategist, but his MO is to instill fear, rather then to inspire.  Cyc is the better leader, bats is the better tactician IMHO.

And then it hits me like a Shazam bolt of lightning we're talking about Dick!  SORRY!  Well, as Nightwing I'd say that he was also quite something, fine we was usurped and had issues, but Scotts record is hardly unblemished.  As Bats he is slipping into a simular role as Bruce, not focuessed as much as being a leader, but rather a mentor and a hero.  As Nightwing I'd say this could have been intersting, but as the new bats i'm gonna have to go with Slim.

It would be more fair to compare Bruce to either Reed Richards or Tony Stark, imo. As it stands Scott Summers is a better leader then either Bruce or Dick, and while he might not have a plan to kill every one of his teammates, he still has a highly developed tactical mind that is constantly analyzing his surroundings, and the people around him. He is aware of the strengths and weaknesses of all of his teammates, so while he doesn't some a contingency plan to eliminate them he is still fully capable of laying a beatdown on any of them. 
 
I also don't see how bringing Cyclops' love life into this makes any difference. It's not like Batman hasn't made moves based solely on emotion in the past.

Also: Cyclops has found that he has had his memory wiped on at least one occasion by Professor X. He didn't respond by attempting to kill Xavier.

Cyclops.

I've always disliked Scott. He could never control Wolverine even if he tried.
 
Wolverine should be leader just because he's so much more awesome.
 
But Prof. X won't let him because he's short.

cyke is way better leader than dick and probs about the same as bruce

3. Bruce: Bruce isn't a leader. With the JLA, he's third, MAYBE second in command, both Superman and Wonder Woman are better qualified to lead than him.  With the Outsiders, he's been more of a tactician, sort of leading, but not really. With the Bat-Family, he's a father, and not a great one.
 
2. Cyclops: A fine leader, really. He's made more than a few mistakes, gotten a few teammates killed, let his emotions get in the way more than he should, but he's really grown since Whedon got his teeth into him with Astonishing X-Men.
 
1. Dick. Has lead the Titans, which is a lot like leading the X-Men, but he's lead them A.) through bigger crisis-esB.) Gotten less of his teammates killed and C.) has generally kept public opinion on his side, without ever compromising the teams trust in him. He's probably the one person (besides Superman) that the entire DCU would listen to, without a second thought. (See his recent Brave and the Bold issue with Hawkman.)

" @CosmicSpiral said:

" @Undergroundgod said:

" @CosmicSpiral said:

"@geraldthesloth said:

" @Undergroundgod said:

" @Neon_Nemesis said:

"Probably, I would feel more comfortable following Scott then Bruce "

I would follow Bruce, I would tell Scott to shut his stupid bitch mouth. 60 years of comic books and all. He is a dumb jock, and gets his teams almost killed all the time. Let me ask you something how manny X-Men have lost their lives over the years under Scotts command?  Do you know how manny have lost their lives under Dick?  Bruce has lost a dumb ass side kick, but he has never lost anyone in a team setting. "

Give me an instance of Cyclops losing a team member under his control that wasn't Jean Grey controlled by the Phoenix, Bruce Wayne created plans to stop his team members if something ever happened to them, the fact someone makes plans to defeat you behind your back isn't enough proof to show he isn't a worthy leader? "

It's not the planning that shows his capability (or lack of capability) as a leader, it's the general scope of those plans. I'm sure throughout the years Cyclops worried that some of the X-Men or students were potentially bad apples, and prepared for the worst possible scenario. But Batman became paranoid as hell after he realized that his memory got wiped, and saw the entire tree as possibly rotten. Batman couldn't be a leader then because he didn't trust anyone, and you definitely can't build or lead a team if you doubt them at every step.   "

And what makes you think Scott would not think something was wrong, if he found out his memory was wiped? "

There's a difference between losing your trust in the people who conspired in that erasure, and applying it to every single metahuman on the planet. It was Zatanna and Hawkman and Barry Allen who were complicit, not Superman and Wonder Woman and Wally West and Alan Scott and the Great Ten and every other person who's "dangerous".  "

When you are a plan maker, you make plans against everyone. He didn't know who conspired against him, he was winging it! And then he was punished for their mistake of letting him find out. The only reason he found out is because it is very hard to hide anything from Bruce Wayne, Bruce misses more, than Scott gets. "

The answer is yes.Cyclops is a way better leader than Dick.

" The answer is yes.Cyclops is a way better leader than Dick. "

" @Vance Astro said:

" The answer is yes.Cyclops is a way better leader than Dick. "

But a Dick and a Cyclops are one in the same.   :D "

I think Cyclops takes this.. Dick is in a team but he kinds of outdoes everyone else.. Cyclops uses more actual teamwork IMO

any version of batman would own cyclops....batman beats cyclops in anything

IMO Cyclops is right up there with Captain America, Mr. Fantastic, Nick Fury, Balder, etc. as the top field generals in Earth-616.

I don't know that I'd put Reed all that high, but the others are spot on.

"I don't know that I'd put Reed all that high, but the others are spot on. "

Didnt Dick lead the JLA for a while?Thats a pretty big achievement for someone without powers(Especially in that crowd)I think he takes this

Which one of these two leads by example?

Scott is miles a better leader than Bruce or Dick. Actual comics Bruce isn't the best leader, his personality doesn't inspire those who follow him to do so, they do it out of fear. Kal is a better leader than Bruce is. Only thing going for Bruce is he's tactically sound. Now Dick is a great leader, charismatic, good tactician, and his people would follow him w/o question. But Scott still edges him out. He's a better tactician (especially his current incarnation/portrayal) and he's making it happen. I mean he took all the different disparent  groups among the Mutants and brought them all together under his banner, Xavier and Magneto included. As things stand right now, Scott is killin em both. 

" I think Cyclops is a better leader than Batman(Bruce). "

" @Nobody said:

" I think Cyclops is a better leader than Batman(Bruce). "

"

" 3. Bruce: Bruce isn't a leader. With the JLA, he's third, MAYBE second in command, both Superman and Wonder Woman are better qualified to lead than him.  With the Outsiders, he's been more of a tactician, sort of leading, but not really. With the Bat-Family, he's a father, and not a great one.  2. Cyclops: A fine leader, really. He's made more than a few mistakes, gotten a few teammates killed, let his emotions get in the way more than he should, but he's really grown since Whedon got his teeth into him with Astonishing X-Men.  1. Dick. Has lead the Titans, which is a lot like leading the X-Men, but he's lead them A.) through bigger crisis-esB.) Gotten less of his teammates killed and C.) has generally kept public opinion on his side, without ever compromising the teams trust in him. He's probably the one person (besides Superman) that the entire DCU would listen to, without a second thought. (See his recent Brave and the Bold issue with Hawkman.) "

They both suck, the Titans and the X-men have possibly the highest mortality rate than any other superhero team in their respective universes.  
When Dick led the titans it wasn't quite as bad as it was now though.

" @Undergroundgod said:

" @CosmicSpiral said:

" @Undergroundgod said:

" @CosmicSpiral said:

"@geraldthesloth said:

" @Undergroundgod said:

" @Neon_Nemesis said:

"Probably, I would feel more comfortable following Scott then Bruce "

I would follow Bruce, I would tell Scott to shut his stupid bitch mouth. 60 years of comic books and all. He is a dumb jock, and gets his teams almost killed all the time. Let me ask you something how manny X-Men have lost their lives over the years under Scotts command?  Do you know how manny have lost their lives under Dick?  Bruce has lost a dumb ass side kick, but he has never lost anyone in a team setting. "

Give me an instance of Cyclops losing a team member under his control that wasn't Jean Grey controlled by the Phoenix, Bruce Wayne created plans to stop his team members if something ever happened to them, the fact someone makes plans to defeat you behind your back isn't enough proof to show he isn't a worthy leader? "

It's not the planning that shows his capability (or lack of capability) as a leader, it's the general scope of those plans. I'm sure throughout the years Cyclops worried that some of the X-Men or students were potentially bad apples, and prepared for the worst possible scenario. But Batman became paranoid as hell after he realized that his memory got wiped, and saw the entire tree as possibly rotten. Batman couldn't be a leader then because he didn't trust anyone, and you definitely can't build or lead a team if you doubt them at every step.   "

And what makes you think Scott would not think something was wrong, if he found out his memory was wiped? "

There's a difference between losing your trust in the people who conspired in that erasure, and applying it to every single metahuman on the planet. It was Zatanna and Hawkman and Barry Allen who were complicit, not Superman and Wonder Woman and Wally West and Alan Scott and the Great Ten and every other person who's "dangerous".  "

When you are a plan maker, you make plans against everyone. He didn't know who conspired against him, he was winging it! And then he was punished for their mistake of letting him find out. The only reason he found out is because it is very hard to hide anything from Bruce Wayne, Bruce misses more, than Scott gets. "

That doesn't make sense.
 
Sounds like Batman was operating under the "the evidence of absence is not the absence of evidence" motto.  I'm sure the World's Greatest Detective could have figured out that Ghost Fox Killer was probably not one of the people involved.  "

I'd rather follow the guy who is less likely to get me killed in battle, in this case that guy being Bruce Wayne. Batman is all about results, execution and getting the job done, while Scott is more charismatic and inspires more people to follow him.

"I'd rather follow the guy who is less likely to get me killed in battle, in this case that guy being Bruce Wayne. Batman is all about results, execution and getting the job done, while Scott is more charismatic and inspires more people to follow him. "

" @Dark_Slayor said:

"I'd rather follow the guy who is less likely to get me killed in battle, in this case that guy being Bruce Wayne. Batman is all about results, execution and getting the job done, while Scott is more charismatic and inspires more people to follow him. "

I agree! "

" @Undergroundgod said:

" @Dark_Slayor said:

"I'd rather follow the guy who is less likely to get me killed in battle, in this case that guy being Bruce Wayne. Batman is all about results, execution and getting the job done, while Scott is more charismatic and inspires more people to follow him. "

I agree! "

Scott is so far doing pretty damn well as far as that goes, since Marvel's decided to stick behind him as competent.  "