We are still three months away from the actual DC makeover we are all hesitantly waiting for but artist Joe Stone created a visual guide to what the DC Revamp is like. I thought I would share it with all of you here:
Artist Joe Stone (via Bleeding Cool) has come up with yet another of his impressive "Read More Comics" posters, this time featuring the characters who will be featured in the upcoming relaunch of the DC Universe. While we already know that a considerable amount of superheroes are missing from the new range of #1's this September, the following guide is a great way of seeing whether your favourite made the cut! Check out more of Joe's work by clicking on the link at the bottom of the page.
For more of Joe Stone's amazing artwork follow this link to his website (Look for the Avengers and X-Men Family Trees).
-- Geo (sora_thekey) 24/7 geek! -- Follow me on Twitter:@sora_thekey
Here's where I tell you what I think will happen in... well comics!
Kara Zor-L, better known as Power Girl, is one of the most popular DC characters in comic books. Whether it is her strength as a female protagonist or the fact that she has large breasts, Power Girl has been a character who can hold her own series, rouges gallery and fans. The question is, what will be of her after September's DC Comics Revamp?
Recap: Power Girl is a Kryptonian, Crisis on Infinite Earths survivor from Earth-Two. As the alternate version of Supergirl she is distinctive because of her... physical appearance. She goes by Karen Starr and is a member of the Justice Society of America.
Facts: After the recent announcement that all 52 ongoing DC Titles would cease publishing to make way for new "First Issues" many asked what would happen to Power Girl. Periodically, DC Comics released a list of new number one issues and none of the 52 new titles showcased Power Girl. Sara 'Babs' Lima interviewedBob Harras and Eddie Berganza and touched upon this topic:
Bob: No, she won't have her own #1 title, but Karen Starr will appear in one of the 52 titles.
Is it strange that Bob Harras refereed to her as Karen Starr and not Power Girl?
After reading that Harras refer to Kara Zor-L as Karen Starr I got to thinking. When the DC Comics Revamp happens will Power Girl survive? She is an alternate dimension's Supergirl. The revamp is also ignoring another popular alternate universe title: Batman Beyond. Maybe DC Comics is holding off on alternate versions of their mainstream characters.
Hypothesis: Karen Starr is a computer programmer when she is not saving the world with her Kryptonian abilities. I am guessing that in this new DC re-telling, Karen's powers will be stripped or repressed until later on. For now we just need to keep our eyes peeled for where this computer programmer will appear.
If my hypothesis turns out to be true I am sure many Power Girl fans will be disappointed but I doubt DC will put one of their most popular characters in the back seat for too long. Is it a bit far fetched that this will happen?
-- Geo (sora_thekey) 24/7 geek! -- Follow me on Twitter:@sora_thekey
Greetings Comic Vine community. How's it going?! You are now reading the "Roundtable User Discussion"! Users, like yourself, virtually met up to talk comic books and other comic book-related topics. Afterwards the conversation was been posted here for your enjoyment. Be sure to comment below where you can submit your own opinions after reading ours. If you liked it go back and read our other conversations (Here) and share your thoughts there too. Even if you disagree with us, we like comments. Seriously!
I am sora_thekey but to keep things casual call me Geo. I will be moderating this Roundtable Discussion which means I will give opinions and keep the crazy contained. "Sitting" with me are RT regulars thehummingbird (THB), SC, RazzaTazz (Razz), danhimself (Dan) and Caligula ready to talk some serious comic book bossiness. Also, please help me welcomeTrodorne to his first RT.
Caligula: Hey guys it's Caligula, and tornadoes wrecked my town recently... it was a blast.
Trodorne: Straight from between the ears of your alien overlords, its Trodorne.
THB: Hello! It is me THB! Today I got lost in Walmart and was shown the way back home by my pet cat. Everyday experiences like this make life special.
Dan: I made it in....lets just hope the thread doesn't get rebooted
SC: Hi everyone, I am Sean or SC, well for now, in about three months I am going to reinvent myself as Shawn. A younger, hipper, cooler more relevant SC. I'll be more accessible, so look out for me in SC #1!
Razz : Hi its Tammy again, I feel sorry for the rest of you guys potentially getting rebooted, but I am an Elseworlds character so I am safe.
LOL! So with some of these intros I guess the readers can infer as to what today's discussion will be about.
If you are living under some kind of rock and you didn't see the news page here on Comic Vine. This September, Post-Flashpoint, the DC Universe is getting a makeover and not like the ones that we like to see on cable programming.
When you all found out about this what was your initial reaction?
Dan: Pure anger!
SC: Ahah, interesting.
THB: My friend texted me and I thought she was joking, or more so had developed a sick sense of humor. Then the thought struck me...HARLEY! What will happen to my precious Quinn....
Caligula: That weird rumbly feeling in the lower part of your gut. Like when you have to poop urgently.
Razz: For me there is no reason not to be excited, it is like all DC comics minds coming together at once to tell some great stories.
Trodorne: I was some what disappointed that DC wanted to go this route. As a worker in a comic store I see this as a move to try to bring in new readers. This move though bold could very well work but at the same time, I am worried because I’m losing what are already great stories which we currently have going on now..
Caligula: I agree with Trodorne, I'm curious to see if this is going to have a major impact on any on-going arcs.
Not a lot of positive reactions I see. To be completely honest I thought "Cool!". Then I thought about it a little and said "Uh uh, there will be riots".
Why did I say that? Well there is a lot of DCU history that is basically going to be re-vamped in order to get a shiny #1 on the cover. DC Comics certainly thinks this is for the better. Do you agree?
Trodorne: In a way yes and no, In terms of yes this is good because an average person who see's Superman #1 will be more apt to pick it up rather than Issue 596. A number one is much more memorable than some other number (unless you are 100). No for the purpose of continuity as Action Comics will have had 904 issues before they decide to go back to number 1. Many who are already fans would see it as it was all for nothing. But this is not surprising since we have had Retcon crisis's since the 80's, and its been changing its history since.
THB: I fear it is going to affect a lot of the more small scale DC characters and series, which is mainly what I read.
SC: I am worried about the smaller titles too. Actually I think that’s one of the main concerns with most people. Smaller titles, and characters, that may be lost of the shuffle, or an afterthought for Johns... I mean DC's new plans.
Dan: Normally I would be all for this but I just don't see how my favorite characters (Superboy and Cassandra Cain) can survive the reboot.
Caligula: I just hope it doesn't break down Batman Inc. and Batgirl, the only two comics I read religiously these days from the big two. Batgirl has been going so well and so has Inc. I really hope this doesn't revamp these stories, but I have a feeling it will.
Dan: I just don't see how it couldn't affect them. With Batgirl being a 4th generation hero and Inc being such a complex story how can they stay intact after the reboot.
Caligula:Marvel has already lost me when they announced that they were ending Hulk in August. and now DC is on the possible verge of making me a completely independent reader. Year after year, blunder after blunder by Marvel and DC have made me become an independent reader. The Mainstream comics seem to be pandering too much to a specific crowd... and it's not my crowd. I don't know that this Reboot will ruin Batman Inc or Batgirl. But if it does, I literally might cry.
THB: I will be a wreck if Batgirl is ruined I have recently fallen in love with her character.
According to interviews with DC Comics all 52 ongoing titles will be terminated to allow new series to start. So it is likely that the series we now love and read will cease publishing.
SC: For me, my reason for lacking neither positive and negative reaction sort of registers from that sole point, whether this is for the better. To me, the big two, they way they present their product for us the customer, is essentially about holding on longer term, bigger fans, and attracted more casual, newer fans. This particular move though, whilst having a lot of potential for new readers, sales and growth, well, I don't really like when the long term, more intense fans are taken for granted. DC and Marvel sort of rely on the fact people will complain but still give them money at the same time. So right now, I don't disagree with DC, or agree. I am just hoping its going to benefit the comic industry.
Razz: I sort of feel like this is a bit too much of the creators being a bit too much inside the system and not realizing that #1 doesn’t mean very much to a lot of people. Non-comic fans don’t associate any particular meaning with a #1. The renumbering is a business decision which won’t have the effect I think they are hoping for, but what it might do is bring back fans who had left.
THB: It may be better for bringing in new readers, and the comic industry has definitely been suffering as of late, however, while older more loyal fans may be disappointed or even angry, the likelihood they will drop all DC titles is very low, but, DC will suffer in many ways with a feeling of betrayal from many more long term readers. Also while new readers are always good, they are less likely to invest as much, as us more dedicated long term fans will. They will lose some of us for sure. On a personal sense I am hoping for the best and expecting the worst. As I said many of the titles I follow are less mainstream and I feel will suffer or be dropped all together by DC after the change.
The surprising is that this is not a surprise. It is not the first time DC Comics reboots its universe. In a way, like the deaths in comic books, it is not a new concept to grasp. The re-vamped stories turned out okay the last time, why wont it this time?
Caligula: I know I'm coming off as a negative right now. and that's not what I mean to do, but changing the classic formula has been fatal in the past... New Coke anyone?
Dan: I still have this feeling that DC is messing with us. First they said that only Flashpoint #5 would ship on August 31st and now they're saying that Justice League #1 will also ship that day. I have a feeling that this is going to be something similar to Marvel's Heroes Reborn or the Ultimate Universe.
Razz: I think it has a good chance of working if handled correctly. Look at what happened with the Abrams Star Trek reboot … now fans are excited to see a re-imagined Khan Noonien Singh (KHAN!). If this works then it will be Marvel trying to copy DC for a change.
Caligula: Here is an interesting question. Will it affect Batman Beyond?
Trodorne: I would say that the main idea this time that with every crisis there was always a change to continuity and it was cause of the major story arch. Like how the original superman was changed to be from Earth 2, and Alan Scott, and etc... Unless they somehow tie in Flashpoint into the reboot, it would be hard to explain outside of calling this a gimmick. In terms of re-vamped we did not have Dick Grayson as Batman in the previous continuity from this one. And with some of the changes they are doing and disregarding all that has been done, mainly in the batman stories is just going to be washed away as if it never happened.
THB: In the end it may turn out better for future readers, but for the current readers this is going to be a hard hit. The main reason I really started reading comics to the level I do now is Gotham City Sirens. When I heard the genius Paul Dini was writing a series with Harley, Catwoman, and Ivy as the leads I went down to my local comic store and became hooked. For me this will destroy the very reason I began reading comics in the first place. In the end it may turn out for the best for new readers, which seems to be the only thing DC cares about at the moment, as well as main title readers. Also I believe DCU online was a strategic move to do before the reboot. What better way to bring in new readers than launch a game that appeals to more than just comic fans, and then restart the universe? Also Lee was very involved in this game as well.
SC: I think key differences between prior occasions, is that a lot more people are invested in a lot more characters and books these days, than in the past, where that number might have been negligible. Well, more negligible I suppose. I think in times past, it may have been more needed to streamline the direction and cohesion of DC. At the same time, I think DC realizes and acknowledges there are differences at so the reason why we sort of have a more modernized reboot, that’s not quite a reboot, well, in the traditional DC use of the term. I think the danger is creatively some characters will end up in a worse position than others. This could be Heroes Reborn situation (unlikely) which although was Marvels, it was enough of a horror scenario that I think everyone who ever existed ever fears it more than death and fears it happening again to anything.
It is likely that the launch of this "New DCU" would work better as something similar to the Ultimate Universe. Would you guys prefer this rather than a reboot?
Dan: I would much rather this be DC's answer to the Ultimate Universe...though 52 titles would be a bit much for that. I love Marvel's Ultimate Universe but at the end of the day I don't want it taking over for the main 616 Universe. I still want to read about adult Spider-man and a non alcoholic Tony Stark. I also want my Superman in red underwear and with teenage sidekicks not for Superman to be a teenager himself.
SC: I prefer him in the crimson red underwear myself, it just brings out his eyes a bit more than the flat red. I agree with what you wrote as well about wanting the best of both worlds.
Trodorne: If DC had done an "Ultimates" like universe where they could get away with anything "like kill spider-man" than yes it would be behind it 100% and maybe really buy into.
Razz: I have had favourite stories retconned out of existence so many times that I sort of treat all comic book canon as alternate universe. Basically anything can and will change any time a writer wants to tell a different story, so why get too attached to any one aspects of the contemporary telling, the old issues still exist after all.
SC: Well, I am still delayed about what and how they are actually going to go about, what they are going to do. So in that sense, its more of a waiting game for me. I tend to go by execution. To parallel Ultimates, some of it has been great, some of it has been Loeb, so I expect the execution with what DC does, will be more important than the idea/concept. (or at least I think it should be)
THB: I would prefer this more than a reboot, mainly because rather than dismissing and destroying many of the great stories and character back stories going on right now, it would offer room for resolution and the chance for these characters to grow. Restarting is like an easy out for the chaos that is happening rather than fighting their way through these complicated, yet good, stories going on right now.
Caligula: If it was a separate universe, I would be less leery about it. But I'm pretty sure this "New DCU" is going to replace the main universe.
Dan: Is DC too complex to jump into though? Maybe. I used to think that myself until I took the time to actually try and get into their books.
THB: Not at all, I jumped into the DC mayhem just fine, all you need is a little back story which can be found on our lovely CV and you can easily follow and understand everything that is happening. DC has no real excuse for this other than a new fan base, as well as not wanting to finish these more complicated plots.
Dan: I love alternate takes on my favorite characters but I don't want them replacing the real deals. How would have everyone reacted if the Age of Apocalypse reality had replaced the 616 reality?
SC: Well, Rogue is now hooking up with Magneto (kinda), certain AOA characters just popped up, so I am pretty sure that’s a sign that a Age of Apocalypse is coming in some shape or form... =p
Caligula: As everyone on this site knows by now, I'm a huge fan of Non-Canonical works, because it allows writers to go absolutely wild and do things they can't with the main books. So yes. if this was an alternate universe, odds are pretty good I would enjoy it. I still may enjoy it even though it's not. We really have to do another one of these when the "New DCU" is in full effect for me to give a cold hard opinion on it.
SC: Oh yeah, that's a good point, and reminds me, see what of projects like Superman: Earth One? Essentially weren't projects like that aimed to be the extremely accessible DC titles? Possibly DC could have just grown that corner of their business.
Dan: Agreed. I may change my mind completely when this actually happens. Plus who knows what news DC will drop between now and then. Right now we're all reacting to them giving around 4 paragraphs of not actual information. They've been very vague about what's actually happening.
Editor's Note: This RT was held before a lot of DC's title announcements.
THB: I will third that? Why I seem to hold a more negative opinion if I even see a glimpse of Harley being involved in the new universe I will probably let go of all my grudges and embrace it. Not until I see Harley though.
Caligula: Overall, I think that this could be good, and I'm going to give it a chance, but creating a whole new DCU, and just throwing away all of the rich history of iconic characters like Batman, Superman, and Green Lantern? It seems like lunacy. It seems like they are trying to cover their butts in case they lose Superman in 2012 or 2013. It seems like they are trying to pander to all of the non DC readers who consistently seem to feel like the DC titles are too complex and intimidating to jump into.
To be honest I am one of those readers. My first DC issue was a Batman comic post-Batman RIP. So for me Dick Grayson is Batman even though I know of Bruce Wayne. To me Batgirl is Stephanie Brown not Cassandra Cain, and as far as I am concerned the Teen Titans have always had Deathstroke's daughter. Yet I dropped a lot of DC titles in the past couple of months, so it is really hard to keep a grasp on these titles since there is so much history behind I am not aware of.
I for one think this is great!
Caligula: See and that's going to be great for the company if readers like you pick up these books and start a new generation of DC fans. But what about us DC cats who have been House Cats in DC's home for a while now. It is like being a pet and your owners moving into a new home, where everything frightens you and it smells weird.
Trodorne: Superman: Red Son was a great story with communist Superman, but going back to what Geo said about how when he read Batman Dick Grayson is Batman. So why change him back to Bruce again when in current times he is Batman.
SC: I agree with the sentiment about waiting to see what happens. Who knows, this could usher in a new golden age of comics where titles are 25 cents, and 50 pages thick! Or that but not as exaggerated...
Trodorne: Well the main idea is that most people today, especially new readers are using digital apps on their phones and iPads. What is the best way to get it out but through the technology they are using?
Razz: I think this is an important point, so many other forms of publishing have gone digital, if comics don’t keep up they will suffer or even perish, which will also be bad for the fans.
Dan: I just don't see how they're possibly going to get enough new readers to replace the tons of rabid fanboys that are going to drop everything DC like a bad habit.
THB: Many people have said they are going to stop buying DC titles until after the reboot? I, however, am going to cling to the last remaining titles I can get of Sirens and Batgirl as well as many others. How about all of you?
SC: I agree about Harley being the defining test as to whether this is a success or failure! I am not sure that many readers will drop off. I mean it is risky but DC must have projected some sort of numbers and expect to be relatively okay short term, and better off in the long run? Rabid fanboys of anything do tend to have bigger growls than bites.
Dan: I am also going to keeps reading my favourites because why would you drop the books while you like reading them? That's fanboy thinking right there. It's like thinking an internet forum petition will have any really effect on the publishers and what they're...well...publishing.
It doesn't seem like DC is going to start from scratch and start with origins but it will be a different world we are not aware of. Do you think it will be an easy "jumping on" point?
Trodorne: Oh I think DC will make this an easy jumping on point as they want these new readers to get in on this. But its not enough just to say we are rebooting everything back to #1 again. in a way it would be our duty as readers to spread the word of this. With more of reading, the louder we are when we all complain about bad writing, and executive decisions. :P
Caligula: As a long time DC reader. I wouldn't say that DC is that hard to jump into, especially not with a site like Comic Vine existing where you can catch up on the most important pieces of a characters history with ease. But at the same time go and read some of your DC titles and think of yourself as never having read that comic before, and then you'll see that a lot of people are right, a lot of the DC books give nods to past events of characters and expect you to just know what is going on when the mention such stuff. So Yes and No to DC being hard to jump into.
Razz: I also don’t see DC as hard to jump into, or at least any more so than the other universes, but definitely it would be a good place to start.
THB: I strongly believe it will be an easy jumping on point. It seems that this would be one of the main reasons behind DC's reboot. If it was even harder to start reason the current DC world, I highly doubt they would get any new readers, and this in turn would make them lose even more old readers than they already will. While I do not think to many people will all together quit reading DC they will lose some of the weaker links I am sure, but in the end those are not the people ordering the fifty dollar direct figures. So not much of a loss.
Dan: I think there's a really good chance that this will be the perfect jumping on point for new readers and the perfect jumping off point for old readers.
SC: I think this will be an attractive jumping on point, worth it, for DC? Not sure... the digital aspects of this, which I feel have been generally overlooked, now that I feel will actually have quite a significant impact. Ironically, as well, having such a big name JLA roster, makes me think this initial phrase will very more DC than usual in one sense. New looks seem interesting enough as well. Can't go wrong with Jim Lee. Actually reminds me of how X-Men #1 came about...
THB: I do enjoy Jim Lee's art he was another reason I really started reading comics....His work with Batman and Hush...and yes the dreaded All Star Batman and Robin which I loved.
If this is in fact a reboot, are DC comics' issues from now until September worth reading?
Trodorne: I would say all comics are worth reading if not once. so if this is a reboot, Than I would suggest to everyone (outside of the comicvine norm) to go out and at least check it out. There is nothing to lose from this... unless your brain starts to hemorrhage.... then you have lost your mind... OUTSIDE of that you have Absolutely nothing..... to lose.
Caligula: I say definitely if you are a fan of them then it will be nice to follow them until the end. I know I will with Inc and Batgirl, because if the reboot does suck at least you can say you stuck around for the original ride.
SC: I would say yes, read the stories for the quality of the stories. If you don't think they are quality and only picking them out of habit then don't, but each issue should fulfill you in some small way regardless of whether its in continuity or matters in the future. Thats one advantage sure, a good story now, that can be referenced in the future? I tend to think every issue should have the goal of being quality and relevant on its own though. This is a semi paid advertisement for independent comics as well, lol, where runs are short and usually go for creativity, originality and quality with every line, panel, and issue!
Dan: I think they're definitely worth reading. First of all, this may be some of the last appearances of some of your favorite characters for a while. Secondly, I'm guessing that the end of Flashpoint will be what causes the reboot storywise so if you want to see what the cause of this whole thing is then you'll want to be reading that series.
THB: I will pick up my DC's titles until the end. It is not the overall story that means so much, but the individual issues, and as long as you are enjoying them why would stop reading.
Razz: I would say more so now than ever if you are a fan. For instance, anyone who was a golden age Wonder Woman fan wouldn’t have wanted to miss the last few issues before Crisis rebooted her character. She finally got to marry Steve Trevor which was played around with for 328 issues before it happened.
Do you think it will it feel like DC Comics or something totally different?
Dan: I think it's going to feel like something completely different...will it be a good thing or a bad thing? Time will tell.
Razz: If this is going to be really successful it would have to be at least somewhat different, sort of like the Abrams Star Trek as I alluded to already.
All right everyone last question: Will you still buy some (or all) of the new DC title's first issue?
Caligula: I will pick up the first 2 or 3 issues of the following characters (assuming they get their own titles): Batman, Batgirl, Superman, Supergirl, Green Lantern, Green Lantern Corps, Flash, and Green Arrow. Also still curious to see how it affects past titles like Jonah Hex and future titles like Batman Beyond.
Razz: I don’t really read most comics on a purely monthly basis anyway. I am sort of a comic book vagabond, I have my favourite titles but other than that I will pick and read anything to check out the writing or the art. If the writing and art is good on these then I will give them a try. For me though the only absolute would be Wonder Woman and probably Justice League of America.
Dan: I have a feeling that because of my huge thirst for everything comic related that I'm going to be buying at least the first issue of each of the new series then going from there.
SC: I will probably buy 10 books. Since thats what I usually buy. Anything with Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, whatever the new Green Lantern book will be, Justice League for Jim Lee's art and the roster, one or two Batman titles, anything with Cassandra Cain. Whatever will be closest to Birds of Prey (which I think was confirmed) and Secret Six. Unless... Wonder Woman ends up with Superman, which is a crazy rumor going around. Then I might only pick up two comics, or I might just drop DC. Also if my other top favorite DC character Martian Manhunter ends up with Superman as well? I'll probably drop DC as well. Actually if any of my favorite DC characters? Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Cassandra Cain, Larfleeze, or Deathstroke end up with Superman I am done! The exceptions will be , and Dex-Starr. Maybe Mogo. That would be the most revolutionary love tale ever!
Razz: I have gotten over my post-Wonder Woman/Superman romance rumour rage, but I am still not happy with the concept.
Trodorne: Will I buy any of the new issues? Would you ask a crack addict if he would like to try some new crack? I'll allow you to slap yourself later. I will buy into the new series. Not all of them but I would buy into some of the key comics and then some. Namely Justice League International (IF I see Judd Winnicks name on the cover). But I am hoping from this we can also get some need bring backs to me it would be Ted Kord, that was a wound that has not healed.
THB: When it comes to what tittles I will pick up at one? Most of the Gotham Universe it is going to strongly depend on who they keep around. Here’s what I am going with: Batgirl- for sure regardless of which Batgirl they use; Batmans- Same goes for him either Batman works for me; Gotham Girls Villains- Ivy? Harley? Catwoman? Or how about the new Epic Gotham City Sirens! ; Wonder Woman- became a fan recently hope they keep the modern appeal she has now; Zatanna- I am hoping they continues a restart of her series. I really like her character and hope this continues ; Supergirl- Always wanted to be able to start her a new so this is one plus for me about the change; Batman and Robin- Always love to see the dynamic duo; and I will also be able to start Justice League! I have always wanted to get a fresh start Justice League. Well I will be broke for a while I am sure....
Trodorne: In terms of buying digital comic books for the reboot I will not be too worried since DC is one of the companies that allows Comic store owners who see much traffic to allow their fans to buy digital comics from their store website. And since our store has a well running website I am more inclined to push people there so also if they want they and browse the comic archive and buy older issues if they want to buy and try the older comic series.
I for one will be getting JLA, JLI, Batman and Robin, Nightwing, Birds of Prey and Batgirl the rest are a wait and see situation. Like most of you I will probably give most a try. On that note lets turn the conversation to the person reading this Discussion. Be sure to write on the comment section and let us know what you think about this revolutionary comic book event.
Time to say good bye boys and girls!
Dan: OH GOD IT'S THE ANTI-MATTER WAVE!!!!!!!!!! I'M FAAAAAADDDDDIIINNNGG!!!!
Caligula: This has been your friendly neighborhood Roman Emperor, Caligula. Telling you to never play with fire unless it involves burning anything written by Matt Fraction.
Trodorne: *hides my Matt Fraction run on Uncanny X-men from Caligula* This is Trodorne, to all you viners out there I say Quando omni flunkus moritati. Which means: When all else fails, play dead.
SC: Thank you fellow RT people and oh, really still interested to see what you fellow CV poster has to say about Superman and Mogo love stories. Take care!
Razz: I am Tammy and … wait a minute - what do you mean Elseworlds characters don’t really exist? Happy that Hummingbird found her way out of WalMart though.
THB: During this RT I became a true comic fan. THB is out! Eat plenty of oranges! -she disappears in a magical gust of pink smoke, you get a quick glimpse of a cape before she fades away-
I am Geo aka sora_thekey, moderator of this RT, and I say this discussion never happened. Be sure not to miss the next Roundtable User Discussion where we will begin with #1-- I mean 15.
-- Geo (sora_thekey) 24/7 geek! -- Follow me on Twitter:@sora_thekey
One of the most common questions asked during interviewes with comic book movie actors is how much research they did have to do in order to play their characters. After the usual vauge "yes" response to the "Did you read comics?" query the actors do not always come off as "studied". With no specific details about their backstory in comic book research I never believe the actors to have truly studied their comic book counterpart. Sometimes it even sounds as if they have a rehearsed answer ready for that question.
I have not officially given my opinion on X-Men: First Class but in a nutshell I can say that the movie was not bad. Even with the obvious non-true to the comics concept the movie flowed well as an enjoyeble experience. It was definetly better than X3 and X-Men Origns: Wolverine but not as good as Thor or The Dark Knight as most reviewers claim.
Today I spent some time watching interviews of the XM:FC actors and I was extremly suprised by the specific references to comic books the actors gave. Marvel.com's Assistant Editor Marc Storm interviewed James McAvoy (Charles Xavier), Michael Fassbender (Magneto), Lucas Till (Havok), Zoe Kravitz (Angel Salvadore) and Rose Byrne (Moira MacTaggert) where the common question came up:
1:40 - 2:40Storm: Michael, you mentioned that you went back to the comics for some sort of inspiration. Were there any particular one that helped you? Fassbender: Yeah, there was one story that I basically drew every thing from. It's not mentioned, or sort of, it's not at all apparent in the history of the character in any of the films, including this one. For me, I could really draw all of the personallity traits I was looking for. It's the story between Erick and Magda, who was a gypsy girl that he freed from the concetration camps when he managed to break out himself. They got married and they he tried to live a, sort of normal life, and they had a child and that child got killed in a fire by some sort of an angry mod. So, in retribution, he killed the entire village and his wife Magda got freaked out about that and left him. From that story I could draw a lot of his sorrow and his mistrust of the human race and just that sort of single minded-ness.
5:01 - 5:54Storm: How much did each of you go back to the original comics to sort of draw elementts of your characters from those interpretations. Till: I think we all did. Kravitz: It'd be dumb not to and then, we were very lucky though. When we got to London we were handed like these giant folders that they had put together for us with pretty much every episode that your character's ever been in. Which, I think we would have all done ourselves but it was handed to us which was nice. Byrne: It's an actor's dream really because we might be like "What's my backstory?" Till: [Gestures as if handed a folder] Boom! Byrne: "Here´s your backstory". [Gesturing as if reading a comic] "So I went to another planet and then I died but then I came back?" and then "He's not my son? Oh we got married!" Kravitz: I know I'm like "I'm sleeping with someone named Beak that has a..." Byrne: Exactly! Kravitz: "Oh didn't know that was my type."
I have seen interviews of actors who never laid eyes on a comic book and played elaborate, fictional characters based on direction alone. Not that there's anything wrong with that, the actors are only doing their jobs but in this case the direction allowed the actors to be informed of how they should or should not take from the comics. Strangely enough, for me personally, this inducessome bode of confidence in the studio to not ignore the original couterparts.
Would you say you agree?
-- Geo (sora_thekey) 24/7 geek! -- Follow me on Twitter:@sora_thekey
'Sup CV users!! Welcome to the "Roundtable User Discussion"! Let me explain what's going on: Users, like yourself, virtually met up to talk comic books and other comic book-related topics. Afterwards the conversation was been posted here for your enjoyment. Be sure to comment below where you can submit your own opinions after reading ours. If you liked it go back and read our other conversations (Here) and share your thoughts there too. Even if you disagree with us, we like comments. Seriously!
I am sora_thekey but you can all call me Geo. I will be moderating this Roundtable Discussion and giving input too. Today I am joined by some Roundtable regulars: The brooding beauty The Dark Huntress (DH), Comic Uno, Miss haydenclaireheroes (Hayden), fellow anime fanatic, thehummingbird (THB),the man with the plan Emperor Gonzo Noir (Emp) and Wondy-loving RazzaTazz (Razz). "Sitting" here with me is also SC who is participating on his very first RT. Welcome!
Razz: Hi Razzatazz (Tammy) back again and I wrote the word prostitute more time today than I have in the rest of my life combined I think (I wrote a blog on the subject)
Hayden: Hi I am haydenclaireheroes and I do video reviews on this website called Comic Uno and I am a superfan of Spider-Girl. It is great to be back.
SC: Hi I am SC, but I was born with the name Sean. Erm, I am new at this, so advanced apologies for occasionally lacking cohesion also I am perpetually tired and prone to rambling about stuff... Hi!
DH: I'm Dark Huntress (Courtney), resident Emma Frost, X-23 and Birds of Prey expert.
THB: Hello I am THB goddess of the oranges, and one day I will take down the world with my cucumber army!
Emp: Hi, I'm Emp and I know what evil lurks in the hearts of men.
Hello people! I hope the comic book world has been treating you well. For me it has since the time has come to talk about Solicitations! For those of you who don't know, every month publishers take time to tease the comic book fans to what future comic books will be about. By future I mean three months in advance. Here at the Roundtable we talk about those comic books that interest us in three months to come. We will all talk about different publishers and give opinions. To follow the "Review" format that CV has we will divide our opinions into three categories: The Bad, The "Meh" and The Good. So let's get started by talking about two publishing companies: Dark Horse and Image.
Dark Horse Comics & Image
Let's start with The Bad. What are the comics that you don't even want to look at? Is there any comic book here that you absolutely know you will not want?
Emp: Bomb Queen, nuff said.
Bomb Queen is also something that I don't even want to take a look at.
DH: Bomb Queen sounds like pure fan service to me. Admittedly, I've never read it.
Emp: I can take Fan Service, Bomb Queen is something else entirely.
Razz: I am not big into vampires, so Vampire Hunter would get a pass from me, also Skull Kickers byt the name itself screams at me don't buy this and the writeup seems to confirm it.
Hayden: I do not read Dark Horse and Image that much but I think the bad for Dark Horse is going to be Dollhouse. I never really liked the show. So, for me I think it is going to be bad but it might be good for fans of the shows.
Razz: I agree with Dollhouse as well, the TV series was kind of a weird concept that wasn't pulled off all that well.
SC: Uhm, DOLLHOUSE: EPITAPHS looks related to the TV show, which I have never watched, so I would avoid that because I hate Joss Whedon.
Hayden: SC how do you not like Joss Whedon? Like I said I am not a big Dollhouse fan but I think he did a great job with the Dr. Horrible Sing Along Blog, Angel, and Buffy.
Razz: Hayden, I guess you and SC don't talk much. Him saying he doesnt like Joss is his way of saying he does like Joss.
SC: Aactually I like him, so I'd avoid that book so one day I can watch the show on You Tube... uhm, I mean DVD, without being spoiled by a comic. My quality standards are otherwise quite low, and I sort of like the look of most of these Image and Dark Horse books, I would read them all if I could. *scans list for Greg Land/Matt Fraction combo* Nope, I am all good?
Hayden: Sorry SC for misunderstanding. We have to talk more often.
SC: Its okay Hayden ^_^, actually a lot of people who know me well still find me confusing. We should talk more often though, I am very fond of Joss Whedon! Angel and Buffy are awesome! Fav shows... with vampires...
Alright since we are not very much aware of these two publishers we can't really have a good grasp at what we don't want. Let's go ahead and talk "Meh". What are the titles you are not sure you want but seem interesting?
SC: This is where a lot of books will fill in for me. Its just a money and time thing. I'll pick on THE DARKNESS. Where as most of the other books put out by either company for me have some sort of originality with the art or story, or writing, I sort of already have a feel for Darkness and its always just been average reading experience for me. 50 GIRLS 50 as well. I mean I like FRANK CHO'S art but the concept here just sounds... meh (if the shoe fits), I like Star Wars as well, but so many books, its hard for a casual fan to keep up, so most of the books sort of end up in my meh category. All seem interesting to me in some way though, just, I won't be buying any time soon.
Emp: I'm occasionally interested in the Star Wars comics they put out but I have no idea where to start
Razz: I think the Angel and Faith series looks sort of interesting. I like Faith but not sure if she can hold her own series here.
DH: Rage looks kind of meh to me. Just reading the solicit itself it seems like the kind of story that's had a hundred variations told of it. Lone female in a horde of zombies. Oh however will she survive?
I never watched Buffy the Vampire. Was that good?
Hayden: It is great
Razz: You claim to be a 24-7 geek and you have never seen Buffy? I liked the series, I was the perfect age demographic for it when it came out though (young teenager). Strong female action heroes are cool.
Hayden: I agree
DH: Geo....we're gonna have to set aside a few days for you and you're gonna have to watch Buffy. Everybody in our generation who claims to be a geek/nerd needs to watch Buffy. However, I'd recommend Firefly over that. Joss Whedon is amazing.
SC: Buffy is amazing. This is heartbreaking. You wound us all Sora! So many amazing character's I am sure you'll find at least two that you will want to get tattooed on your back or arm. Thats it, everyone chip in $30 dollars, we are buying Sora the DVD box set.
Hayden: Ya Sora we are going to have chip in for Buffy season 1 for you or you can watch it on Hulu I think
THB: Oh DarkHuntress I began to watch Firefly...I have never seen Buffy, I am not much of an American vampire fan. I need to watch it.
DH: You should be totally fangirling over it?
Emp: Firefly is the peak of Joss Whedon for me. As for the meh …
lol! Okay so I guess I am watching Buffy in the foreseeable future. Let's move on and talk about The Good.
What are the Image and Dark Horse comic books you absolutely want?
Hayden: The good for Dark Horse has to be Faith and Angel. Like I said I like Buffy and Angel. So, I think I might give this a try even thouhg I am not a big Faith fan. DH: Angel and Faith looks really good. I always loved those characters. I'm still not sure if I'm gonna bother picking up the Buffy Season 8 trades, Angel always held more appeal to me. Kult looks pretty good. The levels of canon in Star Wars always make me wary of what Star Wars stuff I'd pick up, so I kind of leave those titles alone. Dollhouse Epitaphs looks intriguing.
Razz: I am just not sure about Angel and Faith holding a series.
Hayden: My guess is that they will change it and make it a mini series
DH: I think they'll appeal to fans of darker things, like Secret Six. They were always dark and twisty characters.
Razz: Maybe you guys are right, OK I get on board with Angel and Faith then.
Razz: ZOMBIES! That '68: hardship looks interesting. Vietnam war vet fighting zombies.
SC: ANGEL AND FAITH #1 definitely, the week it comes out! THE LI'L DEPRESSED BOY, is awesome, so that too, if my store has it, they usually get it late. Also ARTIFACTS, MORNING GLORIES YEARBOOK 2011 I will try and get the week they come out, but definitely eventually in trade if not. Eventually in trade or back issue, THE GOON. I like that book, but just can't keep up, or don't consider it a must read.
Emp: My good are “The Goon” and “The Walking Dead”, no doubt about it.
Hayden: The good for Image is Morning Glories yearbook because I love Morning Glories!!!!!! Also I think Invincible is going to be pretty good but I think Morning Glories is going to be better
I love Morning Glories but I only read the trades so I am excited that the 2nd volume will be released on August.
Hayden: You should get the Morning Glories yearbook also. I think it looks awesome
I considered it but isn't the Yearbook just a recap?
Hayden: Ya it is just a recap but I think it will be good because they will be talking about the memories. But we will have to wait and see.
Same goes for the Invincible books. I read the series but only in trades.
Hayden: Ya invincible might now be worth getting every issue. It may be better just getting the trades.
I'm actually surprised there is so much comic book reading outside "The Big 2". Speaking of Big 2 lets talk about one of them.
EDITOR'S NOTE: We met up for this Roundtable Discussion previous to that of the DC Re-vamp announcement. So if you are wondering why we don't mention it at all, it is because we didn't know about it then.
What is it you don't even want to touch? Let alone read.
Emp: I'm going to go out on a limb and say Gotham City Sirens, that's a book that's just been limping along. I'm also going to add the fact that we've been getting the DC Comics Presents: Shazam, but we can't get actual collections for Power of Shazam.
SC: Eh, DC that month... I am more indifferent really. Most of the books, where I dislike a character, its a creative team I like, and vice versa.
Hayden: I also have that problem with DC. Especially loving a character and hating the creative team like Superboy and Supergirl.
SC: I know right, its like they know how to exploit us with what creative teams they put on what characters. Strangely though Loeb on Wonder woman I am okay with, I liked some of his issues. (I am not fond of Loeb as a writer)
THB: Oh yes I agree with the Supergirl, thing as well. I feel she has been slaughtered a bit lately. Catwoman in Sirens has had her image damaged in my eyes because of the new writers and such for that. As for me I will read almost and DC comic, My least favorite, though is the Green Lantern. I do not know why I have such a big problem with this series, but for some reason the whole character of Hal in general makes me disinclined toward reading it. The only time I have enjoyed seeing Hal was when Batman and Robin double teamed him in All Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder.
I agree with THB on that one though. After Blackest Night I couldn't get onboard with GL books
Hayden: Flashpoint: Emperor Aquaman because I am not a big Aquaman fan and I do not think he is going to be any better in another world. Flashpoint: Citizen Cold I do not think is going to be that great either. When I first read Flashpoint I did not like that Citizen Cold was a hero. Also I do not think Gears of War is going to be a good comic because I never really liked video game comics. Most of the time they are not great and are a waste of money. Except for – that was a pretty good comic.
DH: What is again really turning me off about DC comics is the insane about of Flashpoint tie-ins. That just seems like over-saturation to me.
Razz: For DC what strikes me is also the Flashpoint tie-ins, that crossover better be good or otherwise that a huge series to have to make sense of. Also the retrospective series don't look particularly interesting.
Hayden: I totally agree, there are too many tie-ins for Flashpoint and not all of them are going to be good. Also the only issues of Superman/Batman series was the Supergirl arc.
DH: Not a fan of pre-nineties art AT ALL, so the 70's retroactives hold absolutely no appeal. Superman/Batman is something that I've never really liked, either. With the exception of the Supergirl arc that returned Supergirl into DC continuity.
Emp: The Retroactives are kind of interesting to if just for the creative teams, I'll give them the in-store flip test.
I agree Retroactive is just not appealing. Why pay for reprints?
Emp: Well the retroactive aren't just reprints, they're also a new story by the old teams from those periods. Of course packaged with a reprint.
Hayden: I didn’t know that.
SC: Yeah, I am actually looking forward to the retrospectives. Its just a pity about the lack of foil and trading cards.
Razz: Well the Wonder Woman retroactive promises a new silver age story, do they not know the silver age was rebooted for a reason? (as in it was not very good)
Emp: Try telling that to Geoff Johns. Lol
Wonder Woman bashing from Tammy? That’s odd.
Hayden: That is weird coming from her.
DH: Part of liking a character is knowing their shortcomings and limitations and being able to identify when they're incorrectly written. Give me half a chance and I'll mercilessly bash Fraction's version of Mrs. Scott Summers... errrm I mean Emma Frost.
SC: I definitely agree with that. Criticism of your favorite character aside from appreciation of them, its more a defense angle. You want them written well, as opposed to just being written.
Razz: I am very aware of the shortcomings of the golden and silver age. The writing was not so great back then.
THB: What are you talking about? It takes true genius to include that many bondage jokes!
Razz: Wonder Woman has struggled through her publication history to have a well defined direction in her series. At the end of the silver age Steve had a miniature alien sidekick that looked like a leprechaun for instance. Plus the bondage was only early golden age.
Emp: I have definitely noticed that about her (not about the bondage).
Hayden: I never knew that about Wonder Woman either.
All right enough bashing on DC's oldies but sometimes goodies.
What is it that you are "so-so" about DC's comics?
Emp: I really haven't been feeling Adam Beechen on Batman Beyond. As much as I love the Batman Beyond animated series, I don't believe Beechen is really doing it justice, that and regular artist Ryan Benjamin just isn't a good fit for the series.
Razz: My meh is both Green Arrow and Teen Titans. I like Green Arrow but there doesn’t usually seem to be much to get behind. Same goes for Titans (more so because it had Wonder Girl) but it also can’t keep my attention.
THB: I agree with the Teen Titans statement. It is hard to keep my attention for some reason with that series. Another one for me is Superman, he never seems to make me curious enough to continues on the series. I am a girl at heart.
Aww Teen Titan-bashing? That's actually my favorite DC book right now.
SC: Teen Titans is ranking high up there for me as well. That being said I have not read the last four issues. Maybe its all downhill from the last issue I read.
Hayden: Teen Titans is a great series. I especially love Superboy and Wondergirl.
SC: Well, now I chime in with the Flash Point tie ins myself. I mean, I don't dislike there being so many, but its definitely more of a wait and see thing for me. I like how this challenges writers and I want to see if they can rise to the occasion or fail miserably and horribly. So a lot of these books I will wait for feed back, or read in store, and until then... but I fully expect to find some gems and quality issues. I mean, with so many, there has to be... oh, also looks like Serafina from X-Men is on the cover of one... so thats what's meh for me DC wise.
I agree on the tie-ins though. The only tie-in I want to read is the Abin Sur story since that is a "What If?" I've always wondered about.
Razz: Abin Sur sounds cool actually, I always wondered why so many GL in sector 2184 come from Earth (and are all men).
Hayden: The Meh for DC comics for me is Flashpoint: Deadman and the Flying Graysons. It could be good to see the Flying Graysons again but I not so familiar with Deadman. So that is the reason it is a Meh. Another Meh is DC Presents the Teen Titans. I like the Teen Titans but I do not know if it is worth to get a reprint.
DH: I'm meh on Batman: The Dark Knight and other Batman titles. I loveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Finch's art, but I've heard varying accounts of how good his writing actually is. And there's just so much Batman stuff that I haven't been reading and the fact that Grant Morrison is heading up the Bat-Family stuff means you need to have read every other issue that he's written of it to comprehend what's going on. That's probably the one thing that I don't like about Morrison. He punishes you for not having read every single issue of his run. So I'm waiting to catch up on my Batman trades before jumping into any of the main Batman titles.
...and on that note I think we should talk Good.
What do we Want from DC Comics? (Flashpoint.. Just saying)
SC: I have not read Flashpoint #1 yet, but if Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter have cool roles and are written well, then a majority of Flash point future issues get like automatic thumbs up from me. If the opposite is what I find, then I should have brought this up in the Meh section. Also I always buy Green Lantern, I am finding it average but aside from Wonder Woman, and Teen Titans, he is probably my favorite DC character in, and with his own book. Wonder Woman is my most definite purchase that makes me happy. Oh and Secret Six and Birds of Prey of course as well! How could I forget! They are my drugs! There is also one Flash Point Tie In I am getting solely because the character on it looks like Serafina from Mike Carey's X-Men arc from a few years back.
DH: Gates of Gotham is something that I've been meaning to pick up. I'm a huge Cassandra Cain fan (as we know from the last solicit roundtable). The only meh part is her new codename. I'm still not sold on it. Birds of Prey, Secret Six, Batgirl, Supergirl, Wonder Woman are all good books. The one I'm probably most excited for is Superman Beyond. I'm an enormous fan of the DCAU and of the Batman Beyond television show and I'm interested to see what they're going to do in the Superman Beyond comic.
Hayden: You are going to love Superman Beyond because they creative team is Tom Defalco and Ron Frenz and they know what they are doing with there second generation heroes. Because they are the creative team that is behind Spider-Girl
DH: Awesome! Thank you for the heads up. I love alternate/future stuff and I love it when they're done well.
Razz: Do I even need to say Wonder Woman. I know a lot of people don't agree with me, but the series right now is doing everything a Wonder Woman fan could ever want. I think in general its a great comic as well. I have also always been sort of intrigued by Baron Winters as well, so the Night Force collection looks interesting.
DH: I love Wonder Woman right now. Of course other than her appearances in main events like Infinite Crisis and her appearance in Sacrifice, I haven't read that much Wonder Woman. I'd actually go so far as to say it's one of my favorite books right now.
THB: I am adoring the current Wonder Woman. I have not read a ton of it in the past, but for the longest time I greatly disliked her character and now DC has made me fangirl over her. Also I am anticipating and hoping for the return of the All Star Batman and Robin, under its new title...I believe I saw a release date set for sometime 2011. I know many people, including myself have been let down with Sirens, but I am trying to think positive that it will regain what it had when DIni was writing for it.
Emp: Really? I guess someone liked All Star Batman and Robin. As for my good, I'm still enthusiastic about Flashpoint, that and Gates of Gotham. That as well as Batman and Robin, I dropped the book around when Morrison left but that cover makes me want to pick it up.
Razz: OH MY GOD, I forgot that one. The Rene Magrite inspired cover blew my mind, but I try to not judge a book by its cover.
Emp: I know, but that cover is just too tempting for me.
THB: I had not seen that cover, now I need to buy it just to look at the front....
Hayden: The Good for DC in my opinion is The Green Lantern Aftermath which I think is going to be really exciting because this story arc has been building up so much. Batgirl because it is one of my favorite series and this issue looks like awesome because it is looking back in her past which I am a sucker for. Also Stephanie has a really great past and she has a lot of regrets that I think a lot of people do not know about like how she got pregent and had to give away her baby and how her father is a villain. Then Superman Beyond I am super excited for because my favorite creative team in on the book which is Tom Defalco and Ron Frenz who made every single issue of Spider-girl. I know that they are going to do amazing job. Especially because it another universe which we know they do perfectly whcih is evident in Spider-girl. Then last but not least a great milestone for Teen Titans #100.
SC: Tom Defalco and Ron Frenz I should mention is creative team I am fond of and will pick up work done by them, usually.
Hayden: I am glad you like them. Like I said they are really do amazing work
Good month for DC then. I am really interested in Doomsday's arc on Action Comics so that will be in my pull list. Lets head on over to Marvel.
Is there something you really don't care for on the Marvel side of the Solicits?
I just want to point out that compared to the Flashpoint tie-ins, Fear Itself tie-ins look worse!
DH: UGH. I'm already tired of seeing all the tie ins. THIS is why I buy events in trades. I get them all in the correct reading order and in a cohesive unit. Plus I'm not breaking the bank and spending 70 bucks a week on tie-ins that I don't even need. New Avengers looks bad to me. I adore Deodato but Bendis is on my sh!t list of writers. And Squirrel Girl trying to babysit doesn't sound like something that's gonna hold my attention. I don't care about the character. I find her a ridiculous plot device. Bendis can have her.
Emp: I totally agree with Geo, Fear Itself looks terrible (tie in wise of course), but at least with Fear Itself you don't need to read the tie ins to understand the main book.
DH: Tie-ins can be hard to get through, cough Final Crisis cough. Hell, I read the tie ins and couldn't even understand the main book...... thank you, Grant Morrison.
SC: Marvel! Okay, for someone like me who is traditionally pretty critical of Marvel, there is not too much here that's bad for me. I mean, there probably is, just there are too many things i am waiting to extoll about in Good (or put in meh). Oh, well ASTONISHING X-MEN... really just not feeling it. Uhm, CAPTAIN CORPS? I am just not that big of a Cap fan...
Razz: Well we should expect a bit of deluge of Captain because of the upcoming movie
Hayden: I am not a big cap fan either but I am picking up that series because American Dream is in it from the MC2 universe and I have to support my MC2 universe.
THB: I like the old Captain America where they have him crashing into Nazis on his motorcycle and such from World War II mainly because the cover art makes me chuckle though.... but as for me I am not very knowledgeable in the Marvel department outside of Deadpool and now some Elektra (SC I read some more random, Elektra a friend had! ) I enjoy both of those....so I shall sit back here.
SC: You might like Heroes for Hire, Elektra has been showing up there and its pretty decent. She is on the cover of that months issue, but knowing how DC and Marvel works, that probably means she won't be in the issue lol
Razz : I am never sure why Marvel keeps trying to push a Hercules series. For me as a fan there is nothing to get behind there, he is an awesome secondary member of the Avengers, but its just too much for me to read this.
Hayden: I am not a big Hercules fan. Also Ka-Zar because that is usually the character I see as junk comics at the comic store that you can get for like 5 cents. So, I do not think it will be that great and will be cancelled quickly.
SC: Woah, did you read his former series Razzatazz? It was one of the most genuinely fun, funny, and original comic series around. It had the greatest fight in the last ten decades! He gave Thor a Purple Nurple! lol You like him more as an Avenger? Current Herc series is pretty fun. I know me and a few other Herc fans have given it a rough time (whole depowerment and wardrobe change, which is yet to happen) but the creative team are still making it unique and fun (just small framing techniques they use)
Razz: I have read parts, I don't know maybe its just the Wonder Woman fan in me who views him as my mortal enemy
Hayden: The Bad for Marvel is Avengers Academy for me because I never really liked the series.
You don’t like Avengers Academy?! GASP!
Hayden: For some reason just does not interest me. I have read more than one issue but i still don't like it. But I did like the Amazing Spider-Man issue they were in this week
I think that is the first time you and I disagree on something.
Hayden: I think it is.
What is "Meh" for you?
What are the books you are not sure but will hesitate to buy?
Emp: Spider Island
Razz: I picked up Hulk and Thor recently (in the past couple of months) to have a look but then Sean told me that I overvalued them, so although they seemed good, peer pressure drops them down into meh.
SC: Again? For some reason I am having trouble thinking of the meh for Marvel? At least for this month, my mind keeps wandering to X-Factor, Journey Into Mystery, X-23, someone thats not Fraction on Uncanny, Legacy, but those are all good things. So why am I mentioning them here? I am not sure. I am living on the edge in that respect, woah. I'll just say then, everything for Marvel for me, can be by default meh, unless I say otherwise later... lol
Hayden: Fear itself the main series is not really talking about fear. So, I have been disappointed about that. So, that is a Meh and Iron Age because I do not know if I will like it.
See the agreement starts up again. I don't think Iron Age is worth the buy. It sounds interesting but I am not sure.
Hayden: We are always going to have to agree on something in a Roundtable then it just would not be a roundtable
DH: Super Heroes looks kind of meh. Anything Hulk or Punisher related is meh. ALL THE TIE INS @_@ and Fear Itself. They are meh. I'd put The Mighty Thor solidly in the "good" column if it weren't Fraction. Art is pretty, Thor is delicious, Fraction is baaaaaaaaad.
Emp: Fraction is only bad on X-men. Everywhere else he's aces.
I agree. Fraction is doing an amazing run on Iron Man and I am enjoying his Thor!
Emp: Invincible Iron Man, Iron Fist, Thor all excellent. If you cut out the X-Men stuff then his track record is near spotless.
DH: That's notttttttttt what I've heard. I think the general consensus is that Fraction's bad on anything involving continuity. Sean will back me up.
SC: Honestly? I don't think Fractions Iron Man is good either, its just not as bad as Uncanny. Fraction's Casanova is awesome. His Iron Fist? Him and Brubaker reinvented the character, it was a great reinvention, Fraction's Thor is like an entirely new character from what we have had for like the last 10 years. Not a bad thing per say... The idea of a hipster Norse god who tells one brother he misses the brother who wore his ex like a body suit and cause the deaths of a lot of his people and destruction of their home, whilst sipping on a triple soy sugar-free vanilla mocha iced chai latte with no ice and then telling people to shut up, sounds original and interesting... oops, sorry mini rant *grin*
Emp: Well I disagree with you on Iron Man, but I respect your opinion about it.
Since we are already giving Fraction his spotlight lets talk Good.
What are the books that you simply MUST BUY? I for one am enjoying Fear Itself (Main Book) so that is on my pull list
SC: I am sincerely excited for the future. FEAR ITSELF main story, I like! Which is surprising. Gambit is making plenty of appearances in X-23 book, MARJORIE LIU writes both him and Laura superbly! Oh and look TWO issues of Legacy, and the return of a bunch of characters. Fraction is off Uncanny and now Emma sounds better by a significant margin already, Gillen is on JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY which is so good it makes me cry at night... uhm. 2 Issues of X-FACTOR? PAD in my opinion, his X-Factor work is the most consistent and reliable book out there, Elektra is showing up in HEROES 4 HIRE. Hickman's SHIELD continues to be underrated, I think you have all finished and I am in a dark room talking to myself? Oh, but I don't see any Cosmic, I just realized I am not as happy as I though. Oh well, Ice Cream and Pita Bread for lunch.
THB: I am determined to keep up with all things starring Elektra now, but as always my heart is with DC and so they will always come first....
Razz: The Fantastic Four reboot still is working for me, though I haven’t read every issue.
There have only been 3 issues of FF so there is not much you are missing. I agree the book is amazing so far!
Hayden: Ultimate Fallout because I love the Ultimate Spider-man series and this is a must have. Then the Amazing Spider-man issues for infested. I am really looking forward to this storyarc. I even hear that Mary Jane might get powers that is going to be really exciting. Also looking forward to Captain America Corp because of American Dream and I have to support any character from the MC2 universe, which is the same universe as Spider-girl. Also Brilliant seems really interesting and original.
Ultimate Comics is the must have for me. That cover with Quicksilver as a puppeteer sold the following year of Ultimate Comics for me!
Emp: Ultimate Comics. I have really high hopes for this. All of it. Hickman on Hawkeye and Ultimates, Bendis on the USM relaunch, hell, even Nick Spencer on Ultimate X-Men. I'm kind of on the fence about the Red Skull series, it's written by Greg Pak so I have high expectations, but I don't know. It's seem like a counter point to his work on the excellent Magneto Testament. H and Herc and Children's Crusade. But that goes without saying.
Hayden: I love Children's Crusade I wish that series was not a mini and a ongoing. We need a Young Avengers Ongoing
Emp: Too true, I also wish it wasn't bimonthly, it really takes away some of the heat away from it waiting another month between issues.
Hayden: This means we need an ongoing monthly Young Avengers series.
DH: X-23 is consistently amazing. I just got finished reading the first arc. It surpassed expectations. The solicit for Uncanny makes me wary, though. "The clock is ticking. And for one X-Man, it's already too late". It's a Fear Itself issue and we know that Marvel is killing people off quarterly. So I'm really really wary about that, but definitely interested, which I suppose is the goal. Iron Age looks ridiculously cool and interesting and this is coming from not the biggest Iron Man fan out there. : Cloak and Dagger intrigues me. Secret Avengers has officially caught my interest. Despite my dislike of them giving Steve back the mantle, I will be checking out Captain . I LOVE the creative team. Generation Hope looks like it'll be decent. YES. Legacy looks great!
All right guys lets wrap this RT up! If you could only buy one book, out of all the books in August, which would you pick?
Razz: Wonder Woman, definitely Wonder Woman, seriously this is a great run at the moment, anyone who thinks otherwise doesnt like great plot and great action.
WONDER WOMAN #614 The all-new Wonder Woman reaches the end of her epic “Odyssey” and comes face-to-face with the malevolent force behind it all! But the only way to defeat her nemesis may be to become her – giving her own powers over to an all-consuming hatred for life on Earth! Is Diana strong enough to control a force that seeks vengeance on all mankind, or will the warrior within her condemn her to a life of eternal bloodshed?
Emp: X-Statix Omnibus or the Fantastic Four by John Byrne Omnibus.
X-STATIX OMNIBUS HC Peter Milligan and Mike Allred’s subversive, media-loving mutants — the world-famous X-Statix — star in a series of bizarre, hilarious and deadly adventures with the most shocking ending ever! See all your favorites — including the Orphan, the Anarchist, Dead Girl, Doop, Venus Dee Milo and U-Go Girl — in action against and alongside Wolverine, the Avengers, Dr. Strange and others! Plus: the awful threats of Bad Guy, Pink Mink, Surrender Monkey and more! Collecting X-FORCE (1991) #116-129; BROTHERHOOD #9; X-STATIX #1-26; WOLVERINE/DOOP #1-2; X-STATIX PRESENTS DEAD GIRL #1-5; and material from X-MEN UNLIMITED (1993) #41, I [HEART] MARVEL: MY MUTANT HEART and NATION X #4.
FANTASTIC FOUR BY JOHN BYRNE OMNIBUS VOL. 1 HC It was the world’s greatest comic magazine — again! Not since the days of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby had a creator so perfectly captured the intense mood, cosmic style and classic sense of adventure of Marvel’s First Family. Fresh off an earth-shattering and reputation-making run as penciler on UNCANNY X-MEN, John Byrne proved his writing talent was every bit the equal of his art as he pulled double-duty on FANTASTIC FOUR, launching Reed, Sue, Ben and Johnny into realms of imagination and wonder into which few creators before had dared to travel. From the four corners of the globe to the farthest reaches of space to the deepest depths of the Negative Zone, the FF face off against foes old and new — including the Dr. Doom, Galactus and Annihilus! Plus: The FF aid the Inhumans, bid farewell to the Baxter Building, don new costumes and celebrate their 20th anniversary in style as Byrne reminds us all there’s a family at the heart of this team of adventurers! Collecting MARVEL TEAM-UP (1972) #61-62; MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE #50; FANTASTIC FOUR (1961) #215-218, #220-221, #232-262 and ANNUAL #17; PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN (1976) #42; AVENGERS (1963) #233; THING (1983) #2; and ALPHA FLIGHT (1983) #4.
DH: Why are you so mean to me? D: Only one? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Superman Beyond or the Death of Oracle trade.
BIRDS OF PREY: THE DEATH OF ORACLE HC One of Oracle’s fiercest enemies finds her alone and far from her allies in this title collecting issues #7-13 – and that’s just the tip of the iceberg! As Black Canary confronts her inner demons, the Calculator’s army and new villainess Mortis take their ultimate revenge on Oracle.
Hayden: I would pick up Superman Beyond.
SUPERMAN BEYOND #0 From the hit comic series BATMAN BEYOND comes the adventures of The Man of Tomorrow in the DC Universe of the future. As Superman feels his super-powers beginning to decline, The Last Son of Krypton is called back into action to stop a villain more powerful than any he’s faced before. This looks like a job for Superman Beyond!
SC: Iron Man by Matt Fraction to spite myself and prove EMP wrong! Somehow. I am not sure on the specifics yet.
INVINCIBLE IRON MAN #507 The heroes’ darkest hour is at hand, and Tony Stark gets to work turning the tide of FEAR ITSELF. And as if things weren't grim enough – RESCUE engages HAMMER INDUSTRIES in the ruins of Paris as one of the Serpent's avatars goes on the hunt…
THB: Sirens out of my pure and undying loyalty to Harley.
GOTHAM CITY SIRENS #26 A secret that goes back to the very first issue of GOTHAM CITY SIRENS will be revealed at last! But will it spell the end of the Sirens? One thing is certain – none of them will be the same!
For me it will have to be Ultimate Fallout. Since the three issues are solicited together then I am going to pick them all three!
ULTIMATE FALLOUT #4-6 (OF 6) What will become of Captain America? Where have all the X-Men gone? And what is up with the new Spider-Man suit? Don’t miss the final chapters of one of the most talked about Ultimate events ever.
DH: I see I have taught you the way of loopholes, my young Padawan.
*bows* Sensei! ;)
I am sure that we all have a lot to say about the solicits but I think it's time for more people to chip in on the opinion front. So readers, comment below!
All right then it's time to say good bye.
DH: This is DH. I'm gonna go type up a post, resulting in my fingers being small bloody stumps V_V
Hayden: Bye guys. This haydenclaireheroes signing off.
SC: Thank you Sora, and this was fun, thank you Hayden, DH, EMP, RT and THB. Thank you as well person reading all this. ^_^
Emp: I'm Emp and I have to live with that everyday.
THB: Au revoir! I shall now travel to THB land where me and all of my orange followers can life in peace among the unicorns! *pink smoke appears and within it THB disappears*
Razz: Its been a pleasure as always, and I think I will take up Thehummingbird on her offer of oranges.
I guess I should go ahead and start watching Buffy episode 1 and find out how I can get in on some orange action. I like oranges a lot! n_n
Be sure to come back for the next Roundtable where we will be focusing on the DC Comics re-vamp annoucement.
This is Sora/Geo signing off.
Special thanks to RazzaTazz for helping me edit this Roundtable post.
-- Geo (sora_thekey) 24/7 geek! -- Follow me on Twitter: @sora_thekey
What is up Comic Vine?! Welcome to the "Roundtable User Discussion"! CV users, like yourself, virtually met up to talk comic books and other comic book-related topics. The conversation has been posted here for your enjoyment. Be sure to comment below where you can submit your own opinions after reading ours. Be sure to go back and read our other conversations (Here) and share your thoughts there too. Even if you disagree with us, we like comments. Seriously.
The Dark Huntress: I'm DH, your friendly neighborhood alternate reality and Emma Frost expert.
Well opposed to what Icarus and DH think, I am here to moderate. Hold the "Geo is a girl" jokes please.
Like I said in my intro this is a very special Roundtable discussion not only becuase I am joned by all of you lovely geeks but because the topic of discussion is Girls Who Read Comics. That's why, other than myself, there are no guys here and we are going to have our own "Girls Talk".
Okay so like always I want to know what you girls are up to, comic book-wise. What have you been reading, watching, doing, writing or drawing that is comic book related?
RazzaTazz: Still trying to do my Wonder Woman review project, where I started out wanting to review 10% of all issues. I am all over the place, today I did from 1970s and 1990s. Last week I was doing 1950s. No way I could do Golden Age straight. My eyes would start to bleed. Last weekend I passed 50%. I will be gunning down G-Man soon for his spot on the reviewers list. More specifically though I just finished the 'biker girl in blue' fashion phase of Diana which is one of my personal favourites.
The Psyentist: Well, I'm currently still working on my sporadic comic Miss Anne Thrope. Other than that, I've been pretty busy with college ending for the semester and such.
The Dark Huntress: I FINALLY SAW THOR! Damn was that an amazing movie. As for what I've been reading, I finally finished reading the entire volume of Exiles, the first arc of the new X-23 book, The Killing Dream and the Master of Doom story arc of Fantastic Four.
thehummingbird: Hmmm... I just read Zatanna and the Seven Soldiers arc.....and caught up on my Sirens...On a more exciting note I have begun to start making a pattern for my Catwoman costume as well as fabric hunting. Re-watching Justice League Unlimited, and perhaps making a Wonder Woman pastel...
The Psyentist: Been watching some Wolverine and the X-Men...
Icarusflies: ….AGAIN?! AGAIN SORA?! Why must you torment me?
Comics: Justice League Elite [trades], Invincible, Chew, Irredeemable, Incorruptible, Sweet Tooth, iZombie, Deadpool, Batman Beyond, Superboy, Weird Worlds, Batgirl, Batman Incorporated, Batman: Arkham City, The Flash, Flashpoint, R.E.B.E.L.S, Red Robin, Batman, Batman and Robin, Booster Gold, Superman/Batman, Teen Titans, Xombi, Tiny Titans, Detective Comics, Green Lantern, Green Lantern Corps, Green Lantern: Emerald Warriors,
Webcomics: Dr. Mcninja, XKCD, Let's Be Friends Again, Ctrl-Alt-Delete, Romantically Apocalyptic, Hark! A Vagrant, Hanna is not a boy's name, Boxer Hockey, Buttersafe, The Punchline is Machismo, Featuring Talking Guinea Pigs, Hyperbole and a Half, Gutters, String Theory, Insane Yeti Squirrel, Rare Candy Treatment, Doctor Cat, Looking For Group, Johnny Wander, Battle Pug
Drawing: I drew a Tron-ized version of Flash recently
Writing: I'm always active in the RPG forum, but this doesn't directly relate to comics…yet.
thehummingbird: School has taken away from most of my comic book life, I have a pile of catwoman comics from free comic book day. Also bought a Harley Quinn figure from Batman the Animated Series.
TheDarkHuntress: Ooooh. FCBD. That is my new favorite day of the year. I adore my comic shop.
You all have been keeping yourselves busy in the comics world.
I am behind on my comic buying this week but like Courtney I watched Thor. We even did a community review last week (Read it Here). I also wrote my own review (Here).
Now more than ever this small section of the Roundtable (RT) is important because this clearly proves that girls do read comic books. On to the topic then. Have you all ever heard any expression along these lines: "Girls don't read comic books?" or "She wouldn't understand comic books since she's a girl"?
The Dark Huntress: Yes. What kills me is when people make threads like that here. "Why doesn't my girlfriend like comics", "Do ANY girls like comics?" threads like that. They irritate the heck out of me.
RazzaTazz: I don't see the connection myself, comics sort of transcend a lot of different genres,and comics can be a lot better than other form of media (like movies) because there are almost no restrictions on it, save for what the writer can imagine and what the artists can draw. So why if I am interested in the extent of human imagination would I restrict myself from comics?
thehummingbird: Why yes of course mainly by boys who have never seen a girl before....and think they are fictional creatures....unlike unicorns which are very much so real, a good comparison would be like the concept of Big Foot. They think they exist, but they can not be sure until they see it. And people do not think I have any "nerdy" hobbies until they talk to me and then they have their mind explode. It is really funny actually.
The Dark Huntress: I've said it before and I'll say it again. People tend to view girls on this site like freaking unicorns. It's crazy. Yes, girls are real. Yes, they like comic books. No, it is not that hard a concept to grasp. Seriously, we have what, three female moderators? Not to mention Sara.
Icarusflies: Haha, not me…I'm the type of girl who's NEVER been considered girly. If people have questions about comics I'm usually the first person my RL acquaintances turn to.
Girly or not, there are girls who read comic books. You are all proof of it.
It's no secret that I like manga and anime. The genres for anime and manga are separated into categories: shounen which means boy or guy, shojo which means girl in Japanese and others which we won't get into. Back in the 60s the same thing happened with comic books where guys would read superheroes and girls would read romantic-themed comic books. Nowadays it's not true especially since I, a guy, enjoy my share of shojo anime and manga. I'm sure you all like your action and "guy stuff". What do you say to the sterotypical idea that there are certain stories that appeal to women contrary than men.
Icarusflies: Stupid. Most of the stories people thought guys would like sold better with women. Take Neil Gaiman's Sandman series.
thehummingbird: I love Sandman and Neil Gaiman, me and my english teacher discuss it all the time it is beautiful.
The Psyentist: I remember when I first discovered the older romantic comics for women. I looked at it almost cross eyed. What IS this? I guess one of the things that would appeal to women in those is what appeals to me even in "normal" comics. And that is drama. Interpersonal relationships and the sparks that fly, interpersonal struggles. It just more exciting because it also involves villains, superpowers, and physical violence!
thehummingbird: I like more shounen then shojo personally. Deadman Wonderland is incredible and Future Diary are two of my favorites. I will admit I have read Fruits Basket and Kimi ni Todoke also. (Note: All of these are anime and manga series) Regardless as you just said though the labeling actually lowers the demographic because many guys become disinclined when told a manga is shojo, or in this case a comic is focussed around romance. While girls will read regardless of the labelling.
Icarusflies: I don't read any manga. :P
The Dark Huntress: I think that there are always going to be certain stories geared toward certain genres and certain tastes. Sometimes those include the family audience, sometimes they don't. I, personally, don't look so much at who a story is geared toward, or what genre it is, so much as the story itself. I do tend to really enjoy reading about strong female characters (Emma Frost, X-23, Birds of Prey), but I could name a lot of men who enjoy reading about those characters as well. So I really think that it's all subjective to a person's individual taste as opposed to what gender they are.
I enjoy reading about Emma Frost, X-23 and Birds of Prey!
The Dark Huntress: Point proven! ^_^
RazzaTazz: I guess I will be the first to break the ice on this topic - at a very basic level the depiction of a lot of comic book superheroines sort of always makes me think in a way that I am reading something more geared towards a guy than to me, but the concept that there is a specific genre which appeals specifically to me is pretty strange. I mean if you consider that comics encompass the genres of action, adventure, intrigue, thriller, sci, horror, espionage and sometimes even other genres like westerns or war, that none of those genres are considered traditionally only male, except for maybe action. More so in other media some of the best authors in those genres are female (like Agatha Christie for instance).
thehummingbird: I am often angry when I realize how many more comics I own starring girl leads rather than male. I do read Batman and Nightwing, but I prefer to read Sirens, Wonder Woman, or Zatanna.
RazzaTazz: There is nothing wrong with identifying with a female character for me, I am after all a woman, just I sometimes find it hard to sympathize with them the way they are drawn or written.
thehummingbird: Yes I can agree the character I love the most is Harley. However, I sympathize with Selina Kyle the most, therefore I am drawn to those two. As you brought up often the way the girls are portrayed it is hard to relate to, almost harder than the male leads because on many unrealistic aspects.
Razz makes a good point. While, yes, most comic books now are super hero themed, it does't mean that "superhero" is a genre. Some are horror, mystery, drama and more. So there is something for everyone.
What do you think about the super hero comics that are originally geared toward a female audience? Like Marvel Divas, Birds of Prey, Her-Oes, Gotham Cty Sirens...
The Dark Huntress: Birds of Prey, the original volume is one of the books that really made me take a harder look at DC. I own every printed trade of it, save for the first and it's probably my favorite comic series that I've read. It'd undoubtedly in the top five. I love well-written strong female characters and that is most definitely Gail Simone's niche, despite her fact to occasionally play up the characters that she's writing.
Icarusflies: The only one of those I've ever read is Birds of Prey. And I'll admit it, I only read it for the Calculator…who is male. I've just never really liked the female characters who headline the series…Oracle, Huntress, Catwoman, Harley.
Though I actually LOVE the Batgirl series, and am actually warming towards Steph…and I always liked it when Cassie was spotlighted in whatever series.
The Dark Huntress: To be clear, though, I don't like them because they're geared towards females. X-Women was supposed to be geared towards females and it was horrible. Bad story and porn-ish and gratuitous art. I like them because they're so well written and really display well rounded and interesting characters.
The Psyentist: To be honest, I never was really into reading comics geared solely toward a female audience. I like having a mix of men and women on a team. But I guess the dynamic could be very different and consequently a nice change in pace. Birds of Prey did seem to have a lot of great, strong women. As for Marvel Divas… yeah, I was turned off when it said Divas.
RazzaTazz: I think generally whenever there is a title geared towards women they should give strong thought to giving it a female writer. I havent read much of Marvel Divas, Her-Oes or Sirens but i think the concept is usually somewhat flawed when they try to handle the personal lives in a meaningful way. BoP I sort of see the other way, its sort of like Jason Bourne in hotpants and fishnets, so really the best overall writer there is the way to go. Still even with that, it really anooyed me at times how they handled the Oracle and Nightwing romance.
thehummingbird: Sirens was really good at the beginning because the inventor of Harley Quinn Paul Dini wrote it, he is a very good writer of female characters he has also done the newest Zatanna series. I overall would say it is my favorite series ever when Dini writes for it.
Opposite to that last question, what do you think of titles which showcase only one or two female characters in team books? Like the current Avengers who only has Spider-Woman and Maria Hill or the original JLA that only had Wonder Woman.
RazzaTazz: I have read a lot of JLA in addition to WW and for me it sort of goes one of two ways. Sure it would have been nice to have more female characters in some of these earlier versions of the team books, but at that point in the publication history of the companies by having Wonder Woman and Black Canary on the Justice League they had about 100% of all viable female heroes at the time. This is a lot higher percentage than the male characters got. Still on the flip side, I think in some ways the characters end up being displayed almost matriarchically. Like "Diana we were thinking about throwing this building on top of that bad guy, can you go take care of the day care over there so the kids don't get hurt?"
The Dark Huntress: I don't think they work that well, to be honest. It always seems to fall back on stereotypes. Either the female is completely helpless and can't do anything for herself and is there as a token piece. Or they make her one of the males in everything except physical form.
One book that did pull that off really well though was Fantastic Four. Sue Richards was without a doubt the glue that held that family together. She was a strong woman in a pretty much all male environment and she didn't lose herself doing it.
The Psyentist: If there is just one woman on a team, there is just one woman on a team. I'm used to that in my own life. Yeah, it does kind of irritate me when the woman is just the token or some sort of girl who can't handle herself in the field besides serving as a sex object for some cheap jokes.
thehummingbird: They are good sometimes, mostly they try to hard to exemplify that they are girl and usually end up being a house wife stereotype, or they end up like an overly manly feminist extremist. Like Wonder Woman in Allstar Batman and Robin. When she yelled and got angry at men calling them gross, but then she then kisses Superman vigorously to exemplify is a woman.
Icarusflies: I don't think that works very well. There tends to be…well, very little of anything. Except punching. There's still a lot of punching. A balanced roster works, an ALL male roster works, OR an ALL female roster works. Just having the 'token' character helps nothing.
Icarus, did you think the roster for Dark Avengers worked?
Icarusflies: I don't know, I don't read Marvel.
Well, in Dark Avengers the only female in the group was Ms. Marvel (otherwise known as Moonstone). Her main characteristic was trying to have sex with everybody on the team but when it came to the battlefield she was probably the strongest and fastes next to Sentry.
Icarusflies: Well you have to keep in mind that all of the other people on the team were ALSO probably trying to have sex with everybody…you just have to keep in mind that there were more of them.
That's true. Especially since Daken was in that team.
Let's talk looks. Usually comic books are visually made to appeal to guys. Why do I say that? The boobs and the sexy poses on the covers. More specifically on J. Scott Cambell's cover's. What are your opinions on that?
I remember a previous RT where xerox-kitty was bothered by an X-Men cover where Emma Frost is in a straightjacket but you can still see cleavage.
The Psyentist: I have that Emma Frost picture. It did make me chuckle. Straightjackets don't have cleavage!
Icarusflies: Ugh, I HATE the skimpy costumes. They're not good for fighting, they're demeaning, you can't have creative designs, and IT'S NOT THAT HARD TO FIND A LOGO, POWERGIRL.
The Dark Huntress: Shocking for the sake of being shocking art irritates me. Same with sexy for the sake of being sexy. Realistic art is definitely one of my favorites, I count Mike Choi and Danny Luvisi among my favorite artists. I've come to accept gratuitous art as pretty much a norm, but I'm also aware enough to admit that it does go both ways.
thehummingbird: Well I am a weirdo and I find it kind of funny. I mean I believe it is demeaning and unnecessary, but still very funny. Honestly though Comic Book art in general is more unachievable than even that of models, I think this can potentially contribute to why the number of females that read comic books is lower than males. I know personally that come into my room, and see my the covers on some of my comic books and judge that the whole book is purely fan service. This may be true in some regards, but it does also have a story so in a way this kind of art demeans itself more than girls, and takes away from the plot line. I personally love a lot overly sexualized art, not for that reason, but because I think it is very nice such as Adam Hughes Catwoman and Zatanna work.
The Dark Huntress: Adam Hughes makes it classy, though. He does it in a tasteful manner.
The Psyentist: Well, comics are artistic, so I give the artists some creative license to make sexy covers. One of my biggest concerns is that of practicality and normalcy. I knew women with breasts that big who were actually inhibited.
RazzaTazz: I actually owe Comic Vine for sort of changing my opinion on this. When I first got here I was pretty down on the exploitation of women in this way. On the surface it looks like voyeuristic vicariousness, but in fact a lot of active women dress in pretty revealing clothes. Figure skating which is watched primarily by women usually has the man in some sort of suit looking thing, whereas the woman skater is wearing bascially a mini-dress with lots of cleavage (though they wear that flesh coloured lycra in the interest of not freezing) I think overall also that women generally show a lot more skin than men do, so there is nothing inherently wrong with this in comics. What sort of bothers me is when we go to extremes. I think Power Girl for instance is above and beyond what might be considered reasonable, but if you bring that up to male fans they just say thats how she is depicted. I dont think they would say the same thing about a male characters whose sexual organs were exxagerated to a degree of four or five.
The Dark Huntress: It's comic books, though. There's always going to be a certain suspension of disbelief involved.
RazzaTazz: Sure and thats why the men are also portrayed unrealistically, I have seen some where a male character has more than six of the washboard abs.
The Psyentist: I really don't mind skimpy outfits... if it fits. I found a fan pic of Emma Frost sticking tape into her bustier to keep it on. Now, as a telepath, she can wear whatever she wants. But when she's fighting in the field... there is no way those are staying put. :P But I can honestly say if I was going to go into crime fighting... I'd want coverage. I'd want protection. But then again, part of comics is the glam. Bright coloured spandex.
thehummingbird: I watch anime so comic books are like seeing women in business suites.
The Psyentist: I guess one of my "problems" (as I said, it doesn't bother me much) with appearance is... it tends to limit diversity. We give the readers so much of what they want in fantasy appearance to get sales, that we neglect the beauty of other body types. So often, I see the same big-breasted hour-glass shape women in comics. Occasionally an artist might draw women with a more slender athletic build... but pear shapes are quite healthy for women. Just a random thought. I have a few on appearance.
About a month ago while on the bus from work a girl who works with me started talking about comic book movies. She was going on and on about how horrible they are. Clearly expressing that she reads comic books. After a while 8 other women joined in the conversation and they all showed signs thaty they read comic books, they knew their stuff. Then I joined the conversation and continued talking about it. After the long conversation ended I said: "and people think that girls don't read comic books". A older woman who had not been part of the conversation then stepped in and said: "Most of us girls are closet comic book readers". (I always like telling this story) Is this true? In the outside world are you all closet comic book fans?
Not at all. I am the most open kind of comic fan you can find. I wear a comic t-shirt every other day (or sometimes every day if it's that kind of week), I'm ALWAYS talking about comics whether the other person knows what I'm talking about, my desktop is a comic image, and I cosplay to go to comic cons.
RazzaTazz: No not at all, I am one of those people that believes strongly in a synthesis of ideas, and if part of what me me think the way I do is reading comics then I don't care who knows. And there are a lot of things in society which are a lot stupider than comics which don't get scrutinized and typecast the way that comics do. I read comics on the bus just as easily as I read a textbook or a suspense novel.
thehummingbird: I am openly a comic book reader, however, many people assume that I am not for whatever reason. In real life I am the only girl I know who reads comics, but this could be because of the above reason. Wait take that back me and this hipster I run into at many comic store events know each other fairly well. People in general though, I think immediately believe girls do not read comics, for whatever reason. Well not for whatever reason, but because of stereotypes.
The Psyentist: Eh, no. I'm not closeted concerning my comic interest. Does that mean people aren't still surprised that I read comics? Of course not. There's something bonding about finding a girl who is proud about her interest in comics. I draw comic pictures during class, hang them on my dorm room wall, wear T-shirts such as my beloved Dr. Doom tee. But even so... when girls come into contact with other geeks, this seems to get turned up. I don't think all of us hide it intentionally. I'll blab about X-Men to my friends all day if it comes up. It's just more likely to come up in certain contexts.
The Dark Huntress: No. Not at all. My sister abhors comic books and most of her friends don't care for them, either. However (and Geo, you'll enjoy this) one afternoon her friend Laura was over and saw one of my trades. She started asking me if I read comics and we ended up having a nice discussion about it. Turns out that she owns every issue of Ultimate Spider-Man and she actually introduced me to the comic shop that I now use and absolutely love. So there are more than people seem to know about or who admit it, but there not as common as guys who like comics.
I don't really talk about comics with my friends, simply because it never comes up.
Now I don't have to make an Ultimate Spider-Man plug!
Before somebody mentioned that they appreciate strong female interpretations. I for one like that a lot too. My favorite X-Man is Kitty Pryde. She is the most consistant character in the X-Men whether she's from an alternate universe (Days of the Future Past or Ultimate) or she is depicted in other media (X3, X-Men: Evolution or Wolverine and the X-Men) she continues to be appealing to me for her headstrong nature.
Do any of you have a similar "favorite" female character?
Icarusflies: I like Tanga, though she's a really new character. Though I also like Cassie Cain.
The Dark Huntress: Emma Frost is my absolute favorite character, X-23, Blink (Exiles) and Black Canary. Huntress and Rogue are also two of my favorites.
I will read pretty much any appearance of these characters.
The Psyentist: *looks over at DH, shouts* Emma Frost. I think she's a pretty strong character. She has a troubled past, she was evil, people still question her motives. She's intelligent and powerful. She's rich. Oh, yeah. And she's pretty hot. And I think she can be very manipulative even using her attractiveness to her benefit though never limited by it.
RazzaTazz: Do you really need to ask me that when I have reviewed over 300 issues of Wonder Woman? Still I understand your point, Wonder Woman has traditionally been written very poorly in my opinion. But there have been some bright spots, mostly since the 1980s reboot. I think my favourite ever depiction of a female Diana was when Doctor Psycho had corrupted the mind of an unborn child to kill its mother. Diana communed with Artemis (who is goddess of midwifery) and then sort of entered the womb with the baby (figuratively of course) and cleansed it of this psychological poison. That was one moment when I thought, yes they did this right.
RazzaTazz: I am probably not doing it justice, it was really beautifully written, it was around issue #56 vol 2.
thehummingbird: I would say Catwoman and Harley Quinn. Especially Harley every time I read anything with her in it I love it immediately, she is easy to right for and a very bright character.
This has been a very interesting Roundtable discussion. I just have one last question for all of you. Say the tables were turned and the majority of comic book readers were girls, would the comic book industry be the same?
RazzaTazz: Its kind of an abstract question, because so many male fans like the medium because of what it brings to them. I don't want to criticize my own gender here, but I think if it was a lot more female readers, the content would have to change to something I might not like as much. I remember in one issue of Elektra once (the volume from the 1990s) there was an issue with a cutout version of E with cutout outfits, and you could mix and match them like a doll. My initial reaction was to burn the issue and forget it ever existed, but I was not yet old enough to play with matches.
Icarusflies: No…let's face it, while we're all awesome, there are those that are…less awesome. They are the young adult novel lovers, the 'bodice ripper' fans, and the teen angst people. Comics would reflect that with more romance (bleh) and less actual plot development, time travel, and punching things.
The Dark Huntress: Maybe. I go by the theory that people don't choose stories based on what sex they are, that that doesn't really play a huge role. That it's an individual's own taste that leads them to choose which comics they pick up and not whether that book stars a male or a female or is a genre that is geared towards a certain sex. So I think that as long as good stories are being written and people are picking up what they feel is a good story, that things would remain somewhat similar.
The Psyentist: My mind just exploded. Not really. Hm... I think maybe stories would be more interpersonal and relational... but that's coming from a hermit who learns about people from studying psychology. :P Perhaps internal conflicts might take the stage more often. Maybe men wouldn't be quite as bulky. I have no idea. I'd like to think it wouldn't change, that the comic book industry is based more on individual fans and artists as human beings rather than genders.
RazzaTazz: I mostly agree with DH & Psy but then there would still be market forces and publishers would have to think of what people would want to buy without actually knowing what they wanted to buy.
thehummingbird: The industry would not be the same, not only would the writing style be changed, but also the merchandising. For one if the comic book industry was intended to appeal more strongly to the female gender then I can almost guarantee it would not appeal to most of the girls here as well as the males. Similar to why comic's now appeal more strongly to males because of certain aspects of the culture, most of these aspects would have to be changed and it would no longer possess, I believe a lot of the quirkiness that is welcomed as of now. Some of the main aspects that would change would probably focus around the way female characters are portrayed and as much as I hate to admit it, I have a feeling a lot more would revolve around relationship issues rather than saving the world. It is the same as was brought up earlier with the difference between shounen and shojo anime. It would not be the same though.
Well this has certainly been amazingly insightful! Thank you girls for joining me and letting sit here with the lot of you even though I am not a girl.
Care to say your farewells?
The Dark Huntress: This is DH signing out. I'm about to go imbibe in some chocolate milk for my poor sore throat :(
RazzaTazz: Thanks for reading. I just want to end on the note that I am not a pegasus ... wait a minute ... was that supposed to be a unicorn? ... ok I am not a Pegacorn (or a Unicus).
The Psyentist: So... I'm going to go back into my own world where there is no gender! Everything is blood and butcher knives. Er... flowers and rainbows. *waves, scurries away, and hides under her rock*
thehummingbird: -bows- Thank you for allowing me to join you tonight! I am off to comfort the poor offended unicorns who have become sad because of those who doubt their existence! -THB disappears into a puff of smoke with an orange in hand-
Icarusflies: And Icarusflies logging off…>cue anthem of Icarustopia<
Well like I said this was awesome. I am now going to get my "I survived an All-Girls RT" T-Shirt now.
This is sora_thekey aka Geo signing off. Peace!
Special thanks to xerox-kitty for helping me edit this Roundtable post.
-- Geo (sora_thekey) 24/7 geek! -- Follow me on Twitter: @sora_thekey
What up! Welcome to the "Roundtable User Discussion"! Let me explain what this is. A couple of CV users, like yourself, virtually met up to talk comic books and comic-related topics. That conversation has been posted here for you guys to see, read and enjoy. Be sure to comment below where you can submit your own opinions after reading ours. Be sure to go back and read our other conversations (Here) and share your thoughts. Even if you disagree with us, we like comments.
I am Geo, better known as sora_thekey and I will be moderating this discussion. I will also give insight along the way. Making their comeback the amazing Icarusflies, Billy Batson and Caligula are "sitting" with me today. Welcome!
Icarusflies: Series: Batman Beyond, I WAS reading Doom Patrol but it ended, Superboy, Chew, Invincible, Sweet Tooth, Irredeemable, Incorruptible, Deadpool, Weird Worlds, iZombie, Batgirl, Batman, Batman and Robin, Batman Incorporated, The Flash, R.E.B.E.L.S, Red Robin, Booster Gold, Teen Titans, Tiny Titans, Green Lantern, Xombi
Webcomics: Dr. McNinja, XKCD, Looking For Group, Let's Be Friends Again, Ctrl-Alt-Delete, Romantically Apocalyptic, Hark! A Vagrant, Hanna is Not a Boy's Name, Boxer Hockey, Buttersafe, The Punchline is Machismo, Featuring Talking Guinea Pigs, Gutter, String Theory, Insane Yeti Squirrel, Rare Candy Treatment, Dr. Cat, Battle Pug, Johnny Wander, Hyperbole and a Half
Trades: Invincible, Justice League Elite, Batman: Year One Hundred.
I just caught myself up on The Death of Spider-Man. Man that has been a great story so far!
Well, I guess we can go ahead and continue on with today's discussion: Team-Ups.This is a term we are all familiar with. Caligula, could you explain what a team-up is for those who don't understand this lingo?
Caligula: A Team-Up is when you take one character from one book and have them partner with another character from a separate book. for example Spider-Man teaming up with Wolverine would be one.
Correct! The perfect example would be Amazing Spider-Man #1. Back in the 60s when Spider-Man was just beginning his first appearance had him Team-Up with the Fantastic Four. Then some team-ups lead into other stuff like when Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Superman, Plastic Man, Aquaman and Martian Manhunter created the Justice League.
What are your opinions about team-ups?
Billy Batson: Well team-ups,for me, depend on the character chemistry and on the writing.
To make it a good story or a good team-up?
Billy Batson: Both!
Caligula: I'm with Billy. It all depends on the character and the situation.
I don't really like Batman teaming up with anyone, I'd like to keep the Bat-verse and the rest of the DC universe separated. But I love to Zatanna work with others. It's all about the characters and stories.
Icarusflies: I love team-ups. Especially seeing the dynamics of characters who wouldn't often work together. Team-ups are something you can't have in many places other than comics, and I think they're one of the things that make comics great.
Often times publishers will even publish titles that focus on those very Team-Ups. Do you guys like those titles?
Billy Batson: I like them if they work, lol!
Icarusflies: Sometimes those are better than others. Usually one person/team gets pushed into the background while the spotlight is on the other person/team, and that just tends not to work so well. Other times it's a lot of fun. The Brave and the Bold was a prime example of a good team-up book.
I think another book that works the same way a Team-Up book would is Heroes for Hire.
Caligula: I don't really know if I like something or not, until i've read it. But 99% of team-ups I've read were either poor or middle of the road. There have been a few here and there that shocked me and I enjoyed, but not often.
Do you guys think that Team-Ups can only be about two characters' interactions in an action situation? Or would a story about how two characters hang out be considered a team-up too?
Icarusflies: In continuity, I think team-ups can only be for fighting situations. Out of continuity (ex, in the real world) team-ups can be used to describe any two+ characters meeting.
Caligula: I think the latter is a cross-over more so than a team-up. Team up implies some sort of grouping with a goal.
Billy Batson: Well the latter one isn't really a team-up since they are not fighting crime.
What about villain team-ups. What is your opinion on those? The Sinister Six or Frightful Four are examples of those.
Icarusflies: Villain team-ups often don't work as well since almost all villains have their own agenda. There are some rare exceptions which were good both to read, and as a team, such as Alex Luthor's Secret Society of Super-Villains.
The Frightful Five? Not so much….
Billy Batson: Haven't really read SS >_> but I have heard it's good. I have never liked Frightful Four.
Caligula: Secret Six is good.
I really only like team-ups for villains though when the smarter villain is using the stronger villain. Something like Luthor using Bizarro or something. Because otherwise it's hard to see to bad guys working together unless one is being played be another.
Icarusflies: Of course the Rogues are the exception to that rule.
Caligula: I think the rogues have to team up, because they aren't really all that menacing when not working together.
I find it strange that you don't favor villain team-ups as much. I actually like Ultimate's Sinister Six. Individually the characters are menacing but together they are just deadly!
Billy Batson: How are they deadly when the heroes usually win and no one ever stays dead? :P
I guess because they tend to be a bigger threat. We all know that the heroes will prevail in the end but the villain team-up make it harder for them.
Icarusflies: Villain team-ups are definitely necessary, they can just be a bit frustrating. (Usually due more to poor writing than anything else)
Okay then what are your favorite team-ups? Team-ups that have happened.
Icaruslfies: As I said, I really enjoyed Alex Luthor's incarnation of the SSoSV.
And one of my all-time favorite team-ups was Aquaman and Etrigan in the Brave and the Bold. Okay, some of that MIGHT have been because they were fighting Cthulhu, but whatever. >_>
Billy Batson: Hmmm that's a though one. I would say Swamp Thing and Constantine but Constantine appeared on Swamp Thing's book.
Deadpool and Galactus was a funny team-up. I personally loved whenever Spider-Man and the Human Torch would team-up. Now I want to speculate. Is there a team-up that has not happened but you want it to?
Caligula: No... no Dream Team-Ups for me.
Billy Batson: I knew that there was going to this question! Jonah Hex and Swamp Thing. Two of my favorites and two loners.
Icarusflies: Yes….yes there is. Sora, can you guess what half of it is going to be?
I'm not good at guessing.
Icarusflies: Fine… I'd love to see and Umbrella Academy/BPRD crossover. The supernatural family and the anti-supernatural police corps? That would be really interesting. Plus, either Gabriel Bá or the Hellboy guy [blanking on the name]'s art would be perfect.
What's up Comic Vine! Welcome to the tenth "Roundtable User Discussion"! Big ten! What is this, you ask? A couple of CV users, like yourself, virtually met up to talk comic books and comic-related topics. That conversation has been posted here for you guys to see, read and enjoy. Be sure to comment below where you can submit your own opinions after reading ours. Also, go back and read our 9 other conversations (Here) and share your thoughts. Even if you disagree with us, we like comments.
I am Geo, better known as sora_thekey and I will be moderating this discussion. I will also give insight along the way. I have three users "siting" here with me. Please help me welcome back: Emperor Gonzo Noir, haydenclaireheroes, xerox-kitty and for the first time Billy Batson.
Emperor Gonzo Noir: I'm Emp Gonzo, and I spin gold from the mouths of babes.
haydenclaireheroes: Hey I am haydenclaireheroes and I do video reviews on this site called Comic Uno and I am superfan of Spider-Girl
xerox-kitty: Evening everyone, your friendly neighbourhood xerox-kitty, here!
Billy Batson: Hi, I'm BB and your Gorillaz fan.
So you guys know what I'm going to ask next right?
Emperor Gonzo Noir: Why we came?
haydenclaireheroes: Yes, What was the last comic you guys read?
Right, what was the last comic book-related thing you did? Read comics? Watch a CBM? Get registration for San Diego Comic Con? (Oh wait that last one was me!)
xerox-kitty: Show off!! ;)
haydenclaireheroes: The last comic I read was Ultimate Comics Spider-Man Vol. 3 trade.
xerox-kitty: Oh yeah... The last thing I read was the newest issue of X-Factor sorry I forget the issue number). If it was a movie, it would have had me on the edge of my seat. As it is, I nearly cried for Guido (and for poor Monet too!)
Billy Batson: Still not finished, an old mini series called: Just Imagine: Stan Lee creating the DC universe.
Cool... So you guys have been reading books which apply well into our topic of discussion: Solo vs Team Books. Billy, can you explain the differences between what we know as a Solo Book and a Team Book? (I like to put newbies in the spotlight!)
Billy Batson: >_> Isn't that obvious? A Solo Book stars usually one main character and A Team Book stars different characters.
Good. You get an A+! Lets compare and contrast. What do you guys prefer, Solo books or Team books?
haydenclaireheroes: I like Solo comics better.
Emperor Gonzo Noir: I really have no preference.
Billy Batson: Yay! Well it depends on the writer and on the team.
xerox-kitty: Looking at my buying habits, I guess I lean more towards team books. I like good characterisation & interaction. That's not to say that there aren't solo titles that I like, but they don't capture my imagination as much, but like Billy says, the creative team really makes a huge difference.
If we think about it Team Books seem to do better with sales than Solo books. There are definitely more Team books than Solo titles. Why do you guys think that is?
xerox-kitty: It's probably harder to keep the attention on a lone character unless they carry a major fan-base like Wolverine, Batman or Hombre Araña.
Hombre Araña, Hombre Araña. Hace todo lo que una araña...
haydenclaireheroes: Well I will say with a team book you have a better chance for peoples favorite characters to be in it so more people buy team books.
Billy Batson: I agree.
xerox-kitty: I like the way that Hayden puts it; all the characters in a team book is like standing at the counter trying to choose your favourite flavour of ice cream. You might not like them all, but you're guaranteed to like most of them and even pick a few favourites :)
Emperor Gonzo Noir: With a team book you have a cast of characters which at least someone will identify with, as opposed to a solo book where you may not care about say Spider-man, but with the Avengers you have Thor, Iron Man or Captain America to root for.
What happens when the protagonist of a Solo title also spends time in Team books. Doesn't that take away from other characters to have the chance in the spotlight? (Spider-Man, Deadpool, Batman)
haydenclaireheroes: Ya I got bothered when a character gets to much spotlight. Especially when we have characters that never get spotlight. Although I am a little biased with Spider-Man LOL. I can never get enough Spider-Man.
Emperor Gonzo Noir: If it's in a minor capacity I usually don't mind, but I prefer to not see, say Spider-Man for example, front and center in New Avengers and Avengers when his book ships 2-3 times a month.
xerox-kitty: It's weird, really. I mean I know WHY Spider-Man is suddenly a New Avenger, Future Foundation and even featuring in the X-Men. But it's been nearly 50 years of publishing so why have him as a team-mainstay after all this time? On the other hand, I'm totally used to Batman being in the Justice League. But there's a long history there. It's not as if it was an overnight decision.
Emperor Gonzo Noir: I agree, Batman appearing in Justice League is like seeing a bird in the sky. It's just a normal thing that you never question. Spidey however is just showing up everywhere. He's really giving Wolverine a run for his money.
haydenclaireheroes: Totally agree.
Billy Batson: Emp don't you mean like seeing a bat in the night ;)
xerox-kitty: For me, Wolverine was the other way around; he was a team member who went solo & then whored his mutant tushy in to every team that would take him.
Do you guys think it would work better if these Solo characters to just be Solo characters or just be Team members?
xerox-kitty: It would certainly keep things simpler...
Emperor Gonzo Noir: Well a character appearing in a single team book would be perfectly fine, it's the multiple team books is where you get into trouble. It spread them too thin and can unintentionally lead to continuity issues if creators aren't keeping up with the other books.
Billy Batson: I'd like to see minor members of a team to have a solo (mini) series
haydenclaireheroes: I like to see the solo members in a team also. Kind of like what Red Robin is doing now in Teen Titans.
xerox-kitty: Yeah, like what Hayden is getting at; there's nothing wrong with a cameo, cross-over or team-up... just don't keep it permanent ;)
Emperor Gonzo Noir: I also think having a normally solo character appear in a team book might open up a new reader to a character whose book they might not read otherwise.
haydenclaireheroes: Then the solo character's sales would go up.
xerox-kitty: In an ideal world they do, but when She-Hulk crossed over with X-Factor (during Secret Invasion) the sales quickly settled back down to normal.
What happens when you take a Solo character and put him in a Team book when the character in question seems to work best by him/herself? (Moon Knight, Daredevil)
haydenclaireheroes: Well I guess it really depends on the character because like Xerox-Kitty is saying with She Hulk. Also She Hulk did fine when she was on the Fantastic Four.
Emperor Gonzo Noir: Well I think that really depends on the writer, I recall liking Moon Knight in Secret Avengers.
Billy Batson: It sometimes works (for Batman and others).
Here's something to think about. What were to happen if Solo Books and Team Books were completely separate? What if every character who has a Solo book didn't appear in a Team book, could that work? I mean Amazing Spider-Man #1 had the Fantastic Four in there.
haydenclaireheroes: I do not think that would work well for sales of the solo chracters. Because no one can get a taste of them if they never heard of them.
Billy Batson: I don't think it could work.
Emperor Gonzo Noir: No, I wouldn't see that working out. It kinda closes off the universe if no one else is showing up in the book. I mean one of the standard orders of business for a lot of DC series for example is to have Batman or Superman make an appearance.
It's seems that there is no black and white with this conversation. I say we finish up with one more question. If you could only read either Team or Solo books which would you read?
haydenclaireheroes: I would read Solo books because some of my favorite comic books is solo books. I feel with solo books you get to know a character much much more.
Emperor Gonoz Noir: If I really had to choose, I'd go with team books. I love Secret Six and Thunderbolts and can't go without them.
Billy Batson: Hmmm that's a though one. Maybe Team Books (for the different characters).
xerox-kitty: I'm sticking with my team books; X-Factor, X-Men Legacy, Avengers Academy... The best of the best :)
Great, so lets end this then. Did you guys notice that you participated on the tenth Roundtable? Milestone baby! Thank you for helping me reach ten Roundtables.
Wanna say your good byes?
xerox-kitty: I sure did, it's all decadent goodness! Congratulations on hosting your 10th Roundtable!
Billy Batson: Bye, mon!
haydenclaireheroes: Bye Guys I had a fun time making this milestone roundtable.
Emperor Gonoz Noir: I'm Emp Gonzo, reminding you not to take any wooden nickels or any comics that have the character Wooden Nickel in them.
Thanks to all of the users who have participated in making amazing Roundtable Discussions. Here's to many more!
I am sora_thekey/Geo signing off.
-- Geo (sora_thekey) 24/7 geek! -- Follow me on Twitter: @sora_thekey
Hello Comic Vine users from all over. Welcome to CV's first Community Review. Comic Vine is know for its amazing community and from time to time we come together to make make awesomeness happen (If you don't believe me then go to the Artist Show-Off or RPG forums). One of the many features that Comic Vine has is that it allows fans like yourself to review comic books and comic books movies. A group of users from the site, like yourselves, joined together to do exactly that: Review.
My name is Geo but most of you know me as sora_thekey. I will be moderating the review from the Spoiler Free section to Verdict. We will be reviewing a little film that is premiering in theaters (in the US) this week. That's right we will be reviewing Thor! To help me, xerox-kitty, lazystudent and punkelias will give insight throughout the review. Welcome!
lazystudent: Hey Guys It's Lazy, Top 5 member of the Viners favorite Brits (Well at least I hope so).
punkelias: Hi, I'm punkelias and I'm from Mexico.
xerox-kitty: Hello, I'm xerox-Hemsworth, wife of Beardy Thor. At least until the injunction goes through...
Welcome guys and gal! Like I mentioned before we are going to be reviewing the Thor movie. You might be wondering how come we are reviewing it since it won't reach theaters until this Friday. If you didn't know already the movie was released all over the world a week or two before it reached the US. So, today two Brits (xerox and lazy) and two Mexicans (punk and I) have joined in this review.
Just to make sure you have all watched the movie right?
xerox-kitty: I finally got to see it yesterday, so it's still fresh in my head!
punkelias: Wait... wasn't this a trailer review? LOL Just kidding.
lazystudent: Hell yeah I watched the movie, I haven't shaved since either as tribute to his beardy epicness, lol, but seriously we knew that if you got the god of thunder to take his top off how many women would be watching it at the cinema. (Cue xerox swooning)
xerox-kitty: Mmmmm... Beardy Thor Moobies... Sorry, you were saying something? That scene in the trailer was what convinced my gal-pal to go see it. I thought it would last as long as it did in the trailer, but kudos to Mr Brannagh for giving the girls a reason to see it...!
Well let me explain how this review will work. First we will spend time reviewing the movie Spoiler Free. Afterwards the gloves are off and will will discuss The Badand The Good. Once we are done we will go back to our spoiler free stance and give our Verdict.
So let's begin!
Without any spoilers what did you guys think of the movie?
xerox-kitty: I just loved it! And no... I didn't spend the entire film drooling over Chris Hemsworth ;)
lazystudent: Okay well let me make my mini reveiw really simple, it's a tradition comic book film theres a few changes from the comic-verse some may not like them others may love them. The story and acting all around is very good in my eyes. It didn't have the big fights of say Iron Man, but its development of characters and the fact it has a much more complex setting than most other comic films means in my eyes it's pretty much as good as it could of been, its really well done. There's so many great touches to it as well.
xerox-kitty: Usually when you think of summer block buster films you think of tacky special effects, thread-bare plots and scripts full of cheap one-liners. This was a visual feast! The effects were flawless and beautiful. The plot wasn't exactly a deep complex mystery (pretty predictable, really), but even though I knew what would happen it was still entertaining to see how they were going to get through those key points. It was fun to see actors playing the whole Asardian shtick completely straight faced in the middle of modern New Mexico :)
punkelias: For me it was a great character introductory movie, not a lot of people know about Thor (I'm among them) and with his movie, I think, Marvel is setting the scenario for the upcoming Avengers movie.
Despite some changes in the history of the comic version of Thor, the story of the character is well developed and interesting . Also, we get to see some really good action scenes and the movie achieves to always keep you interested in knowing more about Thor.
In my opinion the movie is great. I think it was a great introduction to the character and this mythos. One of the things I enjoyed the most was that Marvel managed to set this in reality. My favorite line is still: "Your ancestors called it magic, you call it science. I am from a place where they are one and the same".
lazystudent: That is an excellent line, its captures the difference between the worlds brilliantly, especially when the first outed superhero on Earth marvel wise is Ironman who's all about science and engineering.
punkelias: I haven't thought about the line in that way, but it's true what lazystudent said.
xerox-kitty: The only thing that really bothered me was my lack of knowledge. I know enough about Thor's world to get by in cross-overs, but when it comes to a movie... I had no idea whether it was a loyal adaptation or not until I'd read about it on the internet later. In a way, I still feel that it was faithful to the spirit of the comic book characters. This is a great introduction for the non-comic reading population to Marvel's vision of Asgard.
punkelias: Oh, I forgot to mention, there are some cool winks to marvel readers in the movie.
We'll talk about the winks at the rest of the Marvel universe later. (When we can talk freely). Without spoiling anything what did you guys think of the look of Asgard?
lazystudent: Visually Asgard is exceptionally well done it really pops, I liked the re-imagining of the bifrost alot and sweeping skyline shots of asgard look great, the realm of the ice giants is also really well done with the complete pallet flip making it look darker and far less accomidating. Visually they nailed the non earth relms which is where its the toughest sell.
xerox-kitty: It was beautiful! When RazzaTazz asked about 'what comic book places do you want to come from?' I immediately thought of Asgard. Serene, scenic, and magical! Bifrost surprised me, but I think that was for the better; it looked sturdy & magical at the same time... although I was singing Billy Jean when it looked like it was lighting up under their feet ;)
punkelias: Some might think it was too shiny but it's comprehensible because it's the location where Odin father-of-all lives and it has to display some importance and greatness.
I agree with that. Asgard is a Fantasy world and I think they were able to bridge the gap between reality and fantasy very well. I loved the Asgardian outfits! ME WANT!
lazystudent: You can keep the rest of the outfit I just want the helmet and hammer.
xerox-kitty: Don't you just love the trouble they went to, to make the Asgardians look right? The costumes were amazing, and even characters like the Warriors Three were instantly recognizable ! Most non-comic readers won't have a clue who they are, but if they picked up a comic then they'll recognise Fandrall, Hogun and... welll, Volstagg looked like he'd been on a diet, but at least he had a hearty appetite!
punkelias: I read some people complaining about the rainbow road not being rainbow-ish, but seeing how it's intended to be a "serious" comic movie I think a rainbow would feel a little out of place.
lazystudent: It's rainbowish enough i feel it has the spectrum effect everytime the camera is on it.
Alright lets go ahead and talk The Bad.
Just as a warning to whoever is reading: This is the point where our Spoiler Free section ends. Skip down to The Verdict if you don't want any spoilers.
So let's start mentioning everything that is wrong with this movie. I'll go first: 3D
xerox-kitty: Really? I thought it was nicely immersive, rather than cheap excuses to throw things out at the audience (which always look flat, slow & weird on a regular TV set).
I thought the color composition was lacking because of the 3D.
lazystudent: I avoided 3D like the plague I am not interested in gimmicks I just wanted to see a movie and not have to pay extra to wear two pairs of glasses like a fool.
It was not worth it. People don't pay the extra money for the 3D.
lazystudent: The final fight seemed a little lack luster but the dialogue and emotion show was good.
xerox-kitty: I didn't like the way that SHIELD went from being co-operative good guys in Iron Man to 'Men In Black' style villains. I also wasn't keen on the battle with the Destroyer. I can't even place the reason why, it just seemed like a cheap excuse to have an unstoppable killing machine.
lazystudent: It's cool to see Hawkeye, but he doesnt actually do anything he has like 3 lines and he holds a bow. I know it's a pre cursor for the Avangers and it's important to introduce him, but the guy just stands there and does nothing.
xerox-kitty: Ooh, good point! He didn't even get to shoot anything... That was a bit of a let down.
lazystudent: Has Odin ever just collapsed into Odin sleep without warning?
Now that you mentioned Odinsleep. I was watching and I knew what had happened, but my friends were like "What the--?". That's when I realized that Odinsleep was never explained!
punkelias: Even though I usually like Natalie Portman, I didn't quite feel like she belongs in this movie.
xerox-kitty: Yeah, the relationship between Jane & Thor was rushed, but the movie was already 2 hours long... they couldn't play it out for a whole week to make it believable ;) Traditional chick flicks create true love with even less time & less credible reasons ;)
lazystudent: Agreed the Foster/Thor relationship was rushed and kind of quirky in places th but it adds a little to Thor's overall transformation.
How dare you two talk about Portman that way?!
lazystudent: I love Portman (Hides shrine) but seriously she just didnt seem as comited as the actors around her especially the asguardians who where all solid.
I liked Kat Dennings character but she seemed unnecessary.
punkelias: I agree with you unnecesary, but it was a good character and it provided some funny scenes.
xerox-kitty: But do people have to be 'necessary'? I didn't know who the character was, or if she was a new or 'real comic' character. But I loved her; she was great comic relief to ease any tension & added an element for more non-comic reading female viewers to relate to. She's the bored girlfriend who'd been dragged along and keeps throwing in witty comments to stop herself from dying of boredom.
Okay. So I think we can all agree there is more to say about what is good in this movie rather than bad. Lets move on to The Good.
What did you like?
xerox-kitty: Beeeeeeaaaardy Thor! (I don't care if it sound shallow, I can't stop thinking about the Beard ;)
punkelias: Chris Hemsworth really looked like Thor and did a good role.
lazystudent: It's probably the best characterization of a Marvel Hero so Far in terms of capturing behavior as well as look, his arrogance launguage the way he carries himself is just really great.
punkelias: Marvel did a good development of the character without being too complex or boring. As I say before the movie keeps the audience interested along the whole movie, some people even were interested in knowing more abut Thor and the history. I saw a couple of them buying the "Omnibus" of Thor after the movie. Also, the fight scenes were awesome, the dialogs were great, the characters were credible and, in my opinion.
lazystudent: The warriors three and general Asgardians their characters where all preety much spot on, Volstaggs like about his appertite captured him exactly in my view.
I thought the Warriors Three movie translation was spot on!
lazystudent: Heimdall gets special mention for bad assery, his pressence was powerful.
xerox-kitty: I second thatl! He was amazing! Not only did Idris Elba have presence, but he was able to act the part completely straight-faced... even when he was committing 'treason'. And he just looked beautiful too; truly magical, impressive & golden, not just some random guy in cosplay.
punkelias: (I repeat) the winks to marvel readers =)
lazystudent: The weapons room loved the sneaky refrences in the objects around them such as the eye of Aragmotto , infinty gauntlet ( apperently they dressed set to show a missing one didnt notice that thou.
xerox-kitty: Arse... I totally missed that! But I bet I know what was 'missing' (mainly because I stuck around after the credits had rolled ;)
lazystudent: It's supposed to be that so hear, but it s gonna be out there in Marvel verse soon enough, begs the question will they use the other two items in the future also.
I really liked Loki's interpretation in the movie. I actually felt sorry for the bad guy. Odin was the villain for me.
lazystudent: Loki Has that edge to him you feel for him alittle hes step dad killed his real dad and loves his brother more . But theirs no doubt that Loki is defo the villian of the piece hes called a traitor by his own allies hes the grand duke of lies.
Well yeah Loki was the villain but I felt bad for him.. Meaning he did an amazing job at working with my sympathy
lazystudent: Agreed on the sympathy vote, kind of feel bad for him and the end.
xerox-kitty: The casting all round was impressive. But I had no idea about Loki's dual background. There were genuine moments when you could feel his loneliness. Although I did fin it really funny how Thor managed to 'pin' him down during their big fight!
LOL! Same here!
xerox-kitty: Sif did have a strong Xena vibe going on... but it's hard to carry a shield, wear armor & have your beautiful raven hair up-in-one without drawing comparisons to Lucy Lawless. But even then they played on that. For a mystical drama, there was a great sense of humor running all the way through the film :)
I was going to ask about that. Did you guys think there was too much humor?
xerox-kitty: Too much? N'ah... The humour was there when it needed to be. It never detracted from the tension or action :)
punkelias: No, it was serious, dark, funny, all when it had to be. For me, the humorous situations where balanced and well timed
lazystudent: I think the mix of humour action etc was preety good, The laughs come form the supporting cast mainly though.
What did you think of the inclusion of Donald Blake?
lazystudent: It's kind of a crappy guise doenst the shield scanner even show the document they use to rescue Thor as a fake? made snece to try and come up with another naem thou since he was running around up till taht point saying iam Thor son of Odin etc.
punkelias: It was a nice touch to not totally forget about his comic universe history, one of the winks to I was talking about.
xerox-kitty: He wasn't really there. So I must admit that felt like a bit of a cop out. Still, at least they tried to include him.
What did you think of the addition of new original characters like Darcy, Erik Selvig and Agent Coulson?
xerox-kitty: Obviously I liked Darcy. She & Erik gave Jane an adopted family environment, with an adopted naughty sister and a caring father figure. I liked him, but I'm now worried about him and what'll happen to him in the inevitable sequel. As for 'Son of Coul', he's there to tie it all together with the Iron Man films, and the overall Marvel movie franchise. But it was also good seeing a bit more depth to him.
punkelias: It's always expected for a movie based in comic books to include new characters, Darcy as it was pointed out it's Jane's friend and it's added as a comic relief, Erik Selvig, I think in the movie it's hinted he might play a important role later. And Agent Coulson, well he's a tie in for all of recent Marvel movies.
lazystudent: Darcy was okay to be honest I wouldnt really miss her if she wanst there though. Selvig I liked especially with his interaction with Thor, his mention of Banner and his interesting post credit scene (if I can mention that) Coulson is one of those people like Darcy he has his moments but his only real scene of worth is the Interegation form the trailer really.
He mentioned Banner? I didn't even notice that!
Since we are in a Spoiler section, we all know that Thor is stuck in Asgard by the end of the film. How do you think that Thor will go back to Midgard for the Avengers movie?
lazystudent: Shot in the dark I am gonna go for magic or a newly built Bifrost. Lets face it, Asgardian labour would be fast, strong and payable with meat and beer so construction would be quick. Also how does Loki get to earth in post credit scene could Thor not use that? Is hammering a portal an option?
punkelias: Definitely they will find the "other ways" to go in and out Asgard, Loki was talking about.
xerox-kitty: Loki was foolish enough to brag to Heimdall that there are other ways in & out of Asgard then the Bifrost... It's only a matter of time before they find one. That, or they'll introduce Enchantress with her magic.
Enchantress!? Yes please!
What did you think of the final scene after the credits? (No Spoilers)
lazystudent: It was very interesting, spoilish for another film but interesting.
punkelias: This scene is interesting because it reveals two important things that might set the starting point for an upcoming movie. (The Avengers movie? Thor 2?)
xerox-kitty: Very dark. Not just visually, but that it was heralding a darker turn for the sequel. It makes sense with what lazy was saying about the missing item from Asgard... and another certain Marvel movie that's due out this year.
I hope those hints aren't too spoilerific ;)
A little, but Iron Man and Incredible Hulk's after-credit scene was the starting point of the Avengers. Iron Man 2's after-credit scene was the set up for Thor... I think it's safe to say that the scene will set up Captain America.
We have talked about everything we liked and didn't. You guys made a few points I didn't even notice.
What's the verdict? Give me a final thought/sentence that says what you think of the movie (No Spoilers)?
lazystudent: Well, it's worth the watch if you like Thor or comics in general. For the authentic Thor experience go unshaved thou. Rating is 5 out 5. The quality speaks for itself.
xerox-kitty: I loved it! It made me feel like a kid again. Like when a movie would make you feel lighter than air at the end, like I could jump out of my seat fly out of the theater. I was uplifting, bombastic, action packed, delivered plenty of eye candy for both the ladies & gents in the audience... I would go so far to say that this was a full-on FIVE out of FIVE and I can't wait to see it again!
punkelias: Maybe I am still excited because of the movie but I will go as far as say: Thor is the best modern Marvel movie so far. It has great special effects, good fight scenes, a well done movie development, and very good acting. Even if you know very little about Thor, the movie will grab your attention and you will want to know more about the character. I watched in 3D (because it was the only available) and in my opinion it's well worth your money, it doesn't feel like a 2D movie forced to be 3D, the inclusion of the 3D effects is well made and it feels right. Rating: 5 out of 5
Overall this movie got a 5 out of 5! I think it was an amazing movie and I agree with all of the above (except the 3D), including the rating. The ending does leave you with a sense of: "Wait! That's it?" but since we know that Captain America is around the corner and Avengers is coming next year then the feeling is gone instantly. I think it's the best Marvel film so far! Go watch it!
Now it's time to say good bye everybody!
punkelias: It was nice to contribute to the community, Hopefully my review was useful for all of you. I hope this isn't the last time you hear about me
It was great having you punk. Al fin otro Mexicano con quien hablar!
xerox-kitty: Is 'xerox-kitty-Hemsworth' too much? It looks like a triple-barrelled surname... Ah well, I guess I'll stick with plain old 'xerox-kitty' for the time being. Anyway, it's a terrible film, you wouldn't like it, so don't waste your money on a ticket... and get your eyes off my gorgeous Beardy Thor! ;)
You can keep your Thor. I'm keeping that Black Swa-- I mean Jane Foster.
lazystudent: Since I am still in Thor Mood I will down a few beers, have a fight/make my ancestors proud and then have the great lazysleep. See ya guys!
Anyways, I am Geo/sora_thekey signing off. Hopefully you all enjoyed our review. @lazystudent: Can I come?